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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1099
   |
Posted - 2014.02.03 14:38:00 -
[211] - Quote
Obodiah Garro - PVE would solve a lot of issues but it is just one step of many that needs to be taken by CCP to flesh out this game.
Drapedup Drippedout - I agree that there is a lack of understanding of the elements of PC from those that might not have participated in it. If they have not been involved in some of the major wars (such as the one between P5 and RA) they would not understand how taxing (time and isk wise) it can be and how enjoyable it can be to face off against other highly skilled players.
Proud Sponsor of the United Lamp Post Defense Fund. "Protecting Our Skies For A Better Tomorrow"
¯¯¯¦¬¯`GÇó.__Gÿ+
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
1505
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:30:00 -
[212] - Quote
@Canari Elphus
Ok, so I had to attend to some stuff IRL before I could devote enough attention to respond respectfully to you as it seems to me you are trying to do for me.
Only a portion of my point is directed at helping "non-combatant roles" as you put it, this is also the portion that is to represent the "passive" income that I believe would be much more acceptable than the current mechanic of fill clone quota-> rake in Isk. Rather than relying on the potential for standings to allow you to farm in peace, it would require interaction from other players, your "passive" Isk wouldn't be appearing from nowhere, it would be a direct result of player involvement in your service. I also feel that you are only viewing a small slice of the reason why "Dust players get into PC". You are viewing it from your own point of view and projecting that need for a hypercompetitive environment on all players that want to get involved in PC. I, for example, couldn't care less about a hypercompetitive environment, my desire for getting involved in PC is to claim ownership of my valley, land in New Eden, a place that I can call my own. Think of it as a provi-bloc type freeport where all would be welcome so long as they followed a few simple rules.
In addition to this, who is to say that there would never be the potential for more combat oriented activities that could be engaged in? The services would need to begin somewhere, that doesn't mean that the initial services that could be offered would forever be the only services that could be offered. You make too many assumptions.
I may make too many assumptions too I guess, since seeing that you are in AE, I assumed that you participated in the same practices I've seen many of your corp mates participate in. If my view of you being guilty by association is wrong, I apologize, I don't remember ever facing you, so I don't know if my assumption is correct or not.
Why do you feel the need to "increase competition at higher and higher levels"? In Eve, Isk in 0.0 is used for empire building and maintenance, this is only tangentially related to competition. It relates in that people will wish to expand their empire and conversely, people will want to topple your empire. If you've got an empire of ****, who will want to compete with you for it? If you want PC to evolve into that competition, you need to give us empires worth competing over. Passive Isk faucets do not an empire make.
I am in agreement with you concerning PC1 and PC2, though I disagree that fully passive Isk that is conjured from nothing is the way to go. The Isk "created" needs to come from somewhere other than the ether. Otherwise, this will exacerbate the disparity that has already been created by PC pumping out free Isk.
I believe that your idea involving the evolution "opening up new opportunities for newer players/corps to evolve as well" is misled. There will at some point become a pinnacle that cannot be surpassed and PC shouldn't be little more than an overly complex game of "King of the Hill". There will forever be limits to how many new opportunities can be opened, this cannot be changed and we will need to figure out how to work within those constraints. This is where Dust can take a queue from Eve, in that, there are large places filled with opportunities to create wealth and explore the universe. Are some of these places more profitable than others? Of course, though it still remains that there is the opportunity there, the freedom to do as you like without the need for participating in 0.0. Dusts lobby doesn't allow concessions for this, the only sandbox in Dust (if you can even really call it that) is in PC. In Dust, when you play pubs, you have no choice in where you go or who you fight without backing out of potentially innumerable matches. How is that playing the game? IDK about you, but I don't imagine that it would be fun to log in only to spend 3 hours loading into and backing out of matches trying to go precisely where you wanted to go, would you find that to be fun? In FW can you actively choose where you want to attack and when? Can you coordinate with capsuleers to plex a system in tandem? The answer to those questions is no, you can't. Once again you have no choice in where you go or who you fight (though you can choose who you fight for). Where is the sandbox in pubs? Where is the sandbox in FW? Am I to believe that you would have all players desire to get involved in the hypercompetitive environment of PC or GTFO? I believe that you would be shooting yourself in the foot with that train of thought and would seriously limit the numbers of the playerbase as well as CCP's AUR revenues (which must be taken into consideration).
I can agree with your assertions regarding older and new players. This still doesn't mean that Isk generation should be in large majority passive. While yes, evolution of the model must come eventually, the passive isk generation is poisonous to the game as it is now. If the game is poisoned now, how do you expect that it will survive long enough to evolve? Yes, PC must evolve, though the PC we have at current must become much like the evolutionary dead ends from our own history. If it doesn't the game will forever be poisoned and ultimately unappealing to a wider playerbase.
TBPF, if the choice rested solely on my shoulders, yes, the funds would be removed in their entirety, asset wealth as well as liquid wealth. Would this likely alienate a devoted (albeit small) subset of the playerbase? Yes, more than likely, would the game survive their loss? Yes, I do believe it would and it may even be stronger for the loss. Those players would be eventually be replaced and the players that took their place wouldn't have silly notions such as "Isk poofing into existence from the ether" was a good idea.
After all, you get rid of one and there will be another just waiting to take their place.
Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives
Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten
Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
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Meknow Intaki
62
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Posted - 2014.02.03 17:32:00 -
[213] - Quote
Trying to get into PC is a big waist of time and money!!  |
Drapedup Drippedout
0uter.Heaven
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
298
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 18:04:00 -
[214] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
I also feel that you are only viewing a small slice of the reason why "Dust players get into PC". You are viewing it from your own point of view and projecting that need for a hypercompetitive environment on all players that want to get involved in PC. I, for example, couldn't care less about a hypercompetitive environment, my desire for getting involved in PC is to claim ownership of my valley, land in New Eden, a place that I can call my own. Think of it as a provi-bloc type freeport where all would be welcome so long as they followed a few simple rules.
.
Pot, meet kettle. Sim City is that way ---------> Go build your provi-bloc freeport
This is about preventing district locking as a means for passive isk farming, not PC 2.0. |
Drapedup Drippedout
0uter.Heaven
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
298
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 18:15:00 -
[215] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
Look well at the presumptuous arrogance displayed by this one. Remember him for he would have himself installed as your better if he could.
And yes, I am better. |
ReGnYuM
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
2028
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Posted - 2014.02.03 18:28:00 -
[216] - Quote
@ Canari Elphus
Slow Clap...
Official Imperfect Title: Supreme Leader of the Endless Sunset
I Slay, for thy Empress
Do you even PC... Brah
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1108
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 19:39:00 -
[217] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa
The reasoning for players to enter Dust vs EVE is two separate things. EVE is more of an RPG than Dust is right now. As CCP has stated, Dust mercs are about the acquisition of land for the time being. PC was created as sort of a free form combat structure for competitive gameplay. Just look at those who play it to understand what its being used for.
PC does not and should not be the answer to all aspirations for Dust players. If you want to move towards industry/trade then there should be something for that in Dust. However, the game should not sacrifice in one area to appease others. That is why I advocate for diversity rather than reshifting the base of this game.
Want to get rid of passive isk generation? Then propose something that generates better gear that can only be used in PC battles etc. Allow for something that allows corps to build the sandcastles that we were promised in fanfest.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
577
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Posted - 2014.02.03 19:54:00 -
[218] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:If you have any creative solutions (as in within current rule sets) the CPM still have an open ear.
CPM knows this has been (and for a long while knew) a problem and are trying to work with CCP and the community on a favorable solution.
Remove PC from the game.
Remove 95% of the isk it generated.
Replace with corp contracts.
Implement PC 2.0 without passive isk generation.
Make PC require PVE/PVP activity to generate income. You either actively run "drone missions" on your planet or you actively fight other corps for isk. Only so many people can run PVE activity on a planet at the same time.
Remove cost to initiate an attack.
Allow reinforcement timers but only allow a single loss to lose a district.
Require CEOs of corps to build a skill in which allows them X number of districts they can hold.
Require cost of upkeep on districts that need to be paid or district is lost.
This would also allow tax on corps in PC to be useful and also not require micromanaged isk giving to corp members.
PC fixed
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Youtube
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
1509
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 03:05:00 -
[219] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:Alaika Arbosa
The reasoning for players to enter Dust vs EVE is two separate things. EVE is more of an RPG than Dust is right now. As CCP has stated, Dust mercs are about the acquisition of land for the time being. PC was created as sort of a free form combat structure for competitive gameplay. Just look at those who play it to understand what its being used for.
PC does not and should not be the answer to all aspirations for Dust players. If you want to move towards industry/trade then there should be something for that in Dust. However, the game should not sacrifice in one area to appease others. That is why I advocate for diversity rather than reshifting the base of this game.
Want to get rid of passive isk generation? Then propose something that generates better gear that can only be used in PC battles etc. Allow for something that allows corps to build the sandcastles that we were promised in fanfest.
Acquisition of land doesn't mean "acquisition of passive faucets". If all you want is a structure for free form competitive gameplay, why not lobby to have Districts open for player organized tournaments which provide no ISK faucet and require no ISK investment?
I never said that Dust should sacrifice in one area to appease others, I simply said that Passive ISK Generation should be put to a full stop and all wealth generated by it thus far should be reclaimed by CCP. I too want diversity despite what you may think. Now, I know what you're going to say, "You clearly said you'd willingly alienate a subset of the playerbase". Well, that isn't a lie, though alienation is a far cry from sacrifice. If those who were alienated chose to leave, that would be their choice; however if they'd leave simply because a horribly broken mechanic was being set right, well then, good riddance.
Couldn't the installations provide the gear of which you speak? I have put forward suggestions that circumvent Passive Income Generation, you seem to outright dismiss that though. There are many things that could be provided aside from free Isk from the Districts. Hell, I wouldn't even have a problem with the current "reach clone quota-> rake in Isk" design if it were tweaked to be "reach clone quota-> transport excess clones to market-> rake in Isk". It is the totally risk free and welfare state handout nature of the transaction currently that I have a problem with.
Let's look at it a little closer, first all Districts generate a set number of clone everyday, this occurs no matter what the holding corporation does, hell, they can even not log in for a month and if their district remains in their hands, it will generate clones every. *******. day. Once the clone quota has been met, excess clones are sold off to NPC buy order for guaranteed profit. Let's look at what is wrong with this, clones come from ether, clones return to ether and are replaced by Isk. It is little more than a handout, it is the safest method by which to generate Isk in all of New Eden. Even Station Trading has more risk from the oft-maligned Margin Trading scam (which btw, I think is perfectly fine, if people get punished for being greedy morons who don't think things through then they deserve to get stuck with worthless goods), yet you defend it as being more than acceptable.
The only people I have seen defend it though are from corporations who've been gaming the system and farming ISK from it for months now. Doesn't really surprise me though, gotta hang on for dear life to that passive cash cow.
Sandcastles will be built from infrastructure, not passive faucets. Passive faucets will not facilitate sandcastles being built, it will only facilitate smacking fish in a barrel.
Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives
Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten
Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
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Dericha
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
28
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Posted - 2014.02.04 03:36:00 -
[220] - Quote
Drapedup Drippedout wrote:"I've boycotted PC since it came out"
Aka- I'm not good enough to play it.
Why are people who haven't played a PC in the last 5 months coming in here calling for PC to be removed?
You claim to have the skill, why no ringing? You claim to have an astute grasp of the state of PC, how?
You can certainly have an opinion about passive ISK farming, but don't come in here having been PC dormant for months and expect any active players to take you seriously.
Lets be real, this worthless majority mentioned above does exist. Some people flat out lack the skill and discipline to play PC. If this sounds like you, be upset the ISK farm affects you, but don't say get rid of PC.
"An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument." |
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
1217
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 13:51:00 -
[221] - Quote
Dericha wrote:Drapedup Drippedout wrote:"I've boycotted PC since it came out"
Aka- I'm not good enough to play it.
Why are people who haven't played a PC in the last 5 months coming in here calling for PC to be removed?
You claim to have the skill, why no ringing? You claim to have an astute grasp of the state of PC, how?
You can certainly have an opinion about passive ISK farming, but don't come in here having been PC dormant for months and expect any active players to take you seriously.
Lets be real, this worthless majority mentioned above does exist. Some people flat out lack the skill and discipline to play PC. If this sounds like you, be upset the ISK farm affects you, but don't say get rid of PC. "An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument."
miss you in eve, dude. |
Drapedup Drippedout
0uter.Heaven
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
300
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 14:18:00 -
[222] - Quote
Dericha wrote:Drapedup Drippedout wrote:"I've boycotted PC since it came out"
Aka- I'm not good enough to play it.
Why are people who haven't played a PC in the last 5 months coming in here calling for PC to be removed?
You claim to have the skill, why no ringing? You claim to have an astute grasp of the state of PC, how?
You can certainly have an opinion about passive ISK farming, but don't come in here having been PC dormant for months and expect any active players to take you seriously.
Lets be real, this worthless majority mentioned above does exist. Some people flat out lack the skill and discipline to play PC. If this sounds like you, be upset the ISK farm affects you, but don't say get rid of PC. "An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument."
So the fact someone has never actually participated in a PC, that is considered irrelevant? and all opinions in the matter should be considered equal and valid, no matter the source? Am I understanding this correctly?
And while we're speaking of irrelevant...look someone from A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. |
GTA-V FTW
446
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Posted - 2014.02.04 14:37:00 -
[223] - Quote
LOL 16 v 16 TDM
Yeah didn't see threads like this coming. 
PC is a joke.
Team Truetards need to pay for a clue because they sure can not come up with one on their own.
Golden Joysticks 2013
Game of the Year
Grand Theft Auto V
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Public Disorder.
2907
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Posted - 2014.02.04 18:51:00 -
[224] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
lol
Full of yourself much?
I am quoting this just so everyone can see exactly what your opinion of everyone who isn't one of the "Circlejerk Elite".
Besides, I'd say that you're looking to kill the dream for anyone who isn't one of you. The dream of the majority is larger than the dream of the minority. Therefore it has more gravity and is less likely to be ignored.
Unless of course, CCP really think that they can make more AUR revenues without the "worthless majority" as you have called the majority of the playerbase with your comment.
Everyone is full of themselves. Only the truly arrogant believe themselves above it. The only thing that I've personally ever cared about is whether or not the individual in question can back it up, or at least make a worthy effort. That is what leads to confrontation and the euphoria that follows.
The dreamers have to dream before they can develop that ambition. I have no desire to crush it. I have no desire to placate the unskilled masses into being content, either. If the masses are pleased, they become content and they stop dreaming. No dream, no ambition. No ambition, no conflict. No conflict, no euphoria.
It is a delicate balance, and you must be made uncomfortable to an extent. |
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