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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1081
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Posted - 2014.02.02 15:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
The issue with PC right now is that it shows off just how limited this game is as far as complexity. Right now the only thing that drives players is the accumulation of wealth to buy dropsuits. This leads to protostomping because it is the ONLY thing you can do with the money you make. There is no 'next level' that a corp can aspire to once they have gained their districts.
PC is limited to such a small part of EVE space that it barely factors into the lives of players who play both games.
The timers are a cheap fix so that CCP could release PC in such a crude state.
If CCP would allow corps to do something with the ISK generated then people would complain a lot less.
1 - Remove the idea of clones being readily available on all districts. Require that a corp hold a 'home district' where the biomass is sent for processing to be able to be used as a clone. Once processed, the biomass can be sent to districts to garrison it but it does not auto-replenish. If clones drop in a district due to conflict, the processed biomass needs to be sent via an EVE pilot for reinforcement.
2 - Allow Dust corporations to build defense structures around their districts or planets (if they hold the entire planet) which would act as the 'timer' for the district. To do this, you add in PVE and specifically, drones. To wear down the defenses of a district, the attacker would go through a PVE mode to take out the defending drones/structures so that they could get to the district. The district holder would be responsible for purchasing what 'defenses' they deem necessary. Once a planet is held, defenses can be added to protect the planet from enemies landing in the first place which would create more 'safe time' before an enemy could reach the district. Besides defensive structures, there are many other things that can be added via district ISK to make this more interesting. As someone mentioned, being able to build research, industry, repair, med or whichever slots for EVE players to be able to use the district. You could also start building other structures once you have taken a system. These would be the same structures that 0.0 pilots can once they hold a system. The building of jump points would allow corps to be able to transfer biomass more easily to reinforce other districts.
What this game is sorely missing right now is:
- A sense of physical distance. It doesnt matter where your districts are, they will always have clones generated on them and you will always be able to instantly get to them with no risk. There is no logistics strategy involved in deciding to take one district versus another.
- Something to build towards. Once you have a district and can keep it, all you really are doing is watching the isk counter tick up. There is no 'empire' to build with your winnings or anything to occupy your time other than endless pub matches in between a couple PC's a week. PC should be the opening to a much more complex DUST experience, not just a shiny veil over the same old pub matches.
- A more meaningful EVE experience. A pilot going through MH has no clue who might own a particular planet or maybe even the entire system. It has zero impact on him or her. The owning of districts/planets/systems should be seen as a benefit or threat to EVE pilots depending on whether they are blue/grey/red to the corps owning the districts.
These two games could be so much better by adding complexity and truly building the integrated experience but the reason it hasnt is pretty simple. CCP doesnt want to risk their cash cow which is EVE by fully integrating it with the half finished DUST. To have FPS players actually impacting their pilots might be a little to risky for them.
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1082
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Posted - 2014.02.02 18:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zerus Ni'Kator wrote:ReGnYuM wrote:The only issue right now with PC is the locking. Once this is fixed I see no problem.
If you honestly have a problem with corps farming ISK then make a PC team and do something about it. The point is, getting established in PC is very hard and 90% of the people who complain in this thread neither have the ability or dedication to thrive in Molden Heath.
We earned ISK unlike players who run BPO's and farm pubs with no risk You cant because all the districts are locked Moron
It would be best to read the first sentence in his post rather than just highlighting what you want to argue about.
The first step is removing the profit from locking the districts and then you can form all the teams you want.
CCP needs to expand PC so that it allows room for smaller corps to gain a foothold. That is why I think it is best to have distance mean something as far as districts. It allows security behind a line of friendlies for a corp to build up its presence. I also feel that there needs to be better EVE integration so that having an EVE component means something in the battles.
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1083
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Posted - 2014.02.03 01:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Severance Pay wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:They should hotfix removing it and all of the isk it has generated. This has the most likes in this thread. Make note of this CCP. Thank you, though I must admit that the OP has the most likes in the thread (wouldn't doubt that many of them are alt likes though, gotta keep your passive cash cow alive after all despite overwhelming support throughout the rest of the thread for the removal)
You do realize that the majority of locked districts in PC right now are actually to protest the ability to do so and profit right? The OP was to bring light to the fact that many corporations are fed up with the exploit and want it fixed. Are you even trying?
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1084
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Posted - 2014.02.03 01:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Severance Pay wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:They should hotfix removing it and all of the isk it has generated. This has the most likes in this thread. Make note of this CCP. Thank you, though I must admit that the OP has the most likes in the thread (wouldn't doubt that many of them are alt likes though, gotta keep your passive cash cow alive after all despite overwhelming support throughout the rest of the thread for the removal) You do realize that the majority of locked districts in PC right now are actually to protest the ability to do so and profit right? The OP was to bring light to the fact that many corporations are fed up with the exploit and want it fixed. Are you even trying? Ah, are you aware of the difference between my post and the OP? OP simply wants the locking exploit fixed and to keep their passive ISK faucet (except when the Districts are locked). I on the other hand, want PC removed entirely until it can be brought back with zero passive ISK gain whatsoever. I am not against Districts providing a source of Active Isk Generation (PvE mob slaying for profit, selling services to capsuleers/mercs for profit etc). However Passive Isk Generation needs to go. Along with all of the passively generated wealth (asset or liquid) that it has created thus far. Anything less and it will be the death of Dust in the long term.
So, basically, you want the game to fail then? PC represents the pinnacle of this game right now. Its competition among the best of the best. Remove it and this game becomes a simple lobby shooter and nothing more. Remove it and you lose a huge chunk of your player base.
Removing the ISK generated from locking districts will not do much to reduce the wealth. The problem isnt that people are generating ISK, its that it secures the district so that others cannot attack it at all. It allows the corp to attack others without reprisal.
Again, you want to stop a corp from generating ISK? Attack the district and try to take it from them. The majority of corps in PC do not lock their districts and they can be attacked at any time.
Right now you just sound like someone who is bitter and vindictive and wants nothing other than to punish those whom you felt wronged you. Those corps that are protesting this arent asking for reprisals against those that are doing it and they are impacted the most. If you want to change how PC works then propose something that is attractive to Dust mercs and not something that just benefits a minority.
Proud Sponsor of the United Lamp Post Defense Fund. "Protecting Our Skies For A Better Tomorrow"
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1086
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Posted - 2014.02.03 02:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:So PC wasn't in stagnation even before the lockout problem? That the push for some newer corporations to come in to create variety in PC wasn't talked about and discussed ten times over because of the dullness of it? PC was dying before the locking district problem, its just that now the locking districts is the main topic. It's the same folks fighting the same folks. That can't possibly be fun and this game has been called a lobby shooter by the "elite" of PC.
Not forgetting how bad the PFC concept is...which is another story.
PC has many issues and does need a lot of work. District locking has been an issue talked about for a while and some decided its finally time to do something about it.
Do you honestly believe that people in PC dont want competition? Playing organized battles in a 16v16 format is what makes it worth getting into.
Players are not perfect and this is admitted. It should be on CCP to make a system that helps foster competition. PFC was an attempt to help prepare corps for PC but it shouldt be the playerbase's responsibility to have to try to create something like that.
Something of a solution for this would be to give a high-sec 'district' to every corporation in Dust. The district can accumulate clones up until its limit but all excess clones do not gain a profit for the corporation. The would be turned over to Concord (the police) to limit military build up in high-sec. This gives all corps the ability to launch at least one full attack on a district every couple days and the rest could be done via cone pack should they want to attack more.
This strategy might be flawed but it adds something to the game rather than to make it less interesting.
Proud Sponsor of the United Lamp Post Defense Fund. "Protecting Our Skies For A Better Tomorrow"
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1090
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Posted - 2014.02.03 02:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
No, I want the game to prosper in the longterm.
PC is the pinnacle of the game how? Does everyone play it? Of those that do play it, no one complains of soulcrushing lag or the exploits that people use?
Lag has been corrected to an extent. Exploits have been removed when brought up. Most exploits were discovered in either PC games or tournaments which actually helps the community as a whole. Locking is just another exploit that we hope to get fixed.
CCP has even stated that PC is what they want this game to be. Its about building a 'sandcastle' in a persistent universe. CCP has never had an issue with people creating almost unbeatable empires. As long as the opportunity is there for everyone and its not created through exploits, its all free game.
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
It is competition among "the best of the best"? Sounds like a 1% circlejerk if you ask me. Even with PC, this game is a simple lobby shooter. Remove it and we lose a small fraction of the playerbase that we'd probably be better off without anyway.
Remove PC and you remove what this game is moving towards. Remove risk/reward and the ability to build something and CCP might as well cancel the game. Who are you to decide what players should leave and which should stay? Maybe we should remove all players who are snipers next as many feel that they dont help the game either.
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
You say "Removing the ISK generated from locking districts will not do much to reduce the wealth", that is exactly my point.
So we are to just try to take it from them when they're able to sit with their thumb up their asses and make Isk while we need to grind the isk by facing them in pubs where they faceroll everyone with proto gear that they can throw away for months while we need to scrimp every single penny we can just to have a chance at attacking them? Beyond that, once we get a player market, it will be dominated by those same thumbsitters who will jack prices to a point where no one can afford to buy anything beyond STD if that.
The reason is that those corps that are locking their districts are doing so to avoid getting attacked. Once they get attacked, they will lose all the money they have stockpiled plus some. PC wars are very expensive and can cost billions per week if it is full out.
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
How is what I have already proposed multiple times in this thread not attractive to Dust mercs on the whole rather than to the small minority that is involved in PC?
Because you want to make the reason for being in PC less attractive than it already is rather than make it more attractive to corps who have not yet tried their hand in it. You want to just feel more comfortable in safe little pub matches where all you have to do is just move onto the less meaningless game. I want to find ways to get more people involved into the risk/reward scenario of what this game will turn into eventually.
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
You say I want the game to die, I say you want the game to die.
The reason you say I want it to die is because I want a broken mechanic that benefits a small minority removed while it is reworked and the damage it has done is reversed.
I say you want the game to die because you want the status quo to go on with a minor tweak so that you can **** the future of this game right in the ass.
I think that Dust would have a better chance at longterm survival by ignoring the minority who obviously feel they are the only ones who should be playing than it would by listening to the same minority and destroying any real chance of longterm growth.
Did you even read the massive post I put up about CCP needing to find ways for corps to use excess ISK beyond pub matches? You are so blinded by your prejudice against corps involved in PC that you cannot even see alternatives that might actually benefit it rather than dull it down. Why dont you wipe the frothy spittle from your mouth and actually read the comments I have posted up.
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1092
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Posted - 2014.02.03 06:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
I have seen your suggestions and I feel that it would only appeal to a small minority in both Dust and in EVE.
CCP wants Dust to turn into EVE so that the two can mesh together. To do that, they need to up the ante in a progressive fashion. They want larger scale battles like what just happened in EVE where hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of ships were destroyed.
By just making PC generate research/industry/etc slots in EVE, Dust has no future beyond minor relevance in EVE and has zero incentive to evolve for mercs that do not want to worry about an EVE counterpart. It also has no bearing on the major players in 0.0 space in EVE who are the ones who are massive drivers to the game.
You are looking for a way to curb protostomping by making PC less attractive with no evolution. Why? Because you just want to solve an issue that pertains to you right now and not the future of the game. Instead of asking how to make this game grander, you seek to add banality so players dont get picked on.
The problem with that is that it is the complete opposite of what the roadmap of CCP is in aligning it with EVE. EVE is even more unfair than Dust is. There are no starter fits and the imbalance between new players and vets is extreme. The imbalance of wealth is extreme.
Should there be more opportunity for smaller corps to get into PC? Of course, PC is way too small and uncomplicated right now. CCP just threw it out there and hoped it would sate the population while they worked on it.
Should there be some sort of opportunity for players to have a growing experience outside of PC? Yes, as that is what happens in EVE.
These games are all about risk and reward. PC will always have the greatest reward because it has the greatest risk and the greatest competition. This is also why it should not have the ability to lock districts as its removes the risk.
Instead of complaining about PC and how its only for the snobby 1%, how about coming up with ideas for how those that do not want to participate in it can have better experiences in the game? Think about expanding the complexity rather than dulling it.
What I find ridiculous is that you are arguing with me when Im giving you points that we can actually agree on. Yes, PC is a passive faucet and it should have great rewards associated with it because it requires much more involvement in the game. However, that faucet should be directed into other ventures that make the game more complex rather than just fueling protogear in pub matches. It should be about ever increasing arms races against other corporations that want to participate in PC which doesnt exist right now.
By adding layers of complexity in PC, it gives tiers to it and outlets for the ISK.
This solves all the problems in multiple ways
1 - With more ISK involved with escalation of PC, it means less will be available for use in protogear in pub matches
2 - With more levels of complexity in PC, it means that more and more time of veteran players will be devoted to their 'empire' so they wouldnt even be in a lot of pubs to begin with
3 - By adding tiers to PC (say low-sec districts versus null sec), it helps to segregate those just starting out in PC versus those with lots of experience in it.
Instead of making the rewards so dull that few want to participate in it, you have to think on continually extending the carrot so that the next step is so attractive that players will move on to it and make room for other players to fill the positions that were just vacated.
What this game lacks is something beyond the PC of where we are at right now. CCP has not developed the next step and that is frustrating everyone. There are a lot of young decent corps that are more than ready to move into low sec PC but they are not given the chance because CCP has not given those corps that are experienced in PC something to move on to and abandon their districts to the next wave.
Stop thinking about how to make it so everyone has the same stuff and start thinking about how to make it so everyone has the same opportunities.
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1092
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Posted - 2014.02.03 08:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yes, I have an EVE toon and it is not a high sec carebear.
Your point is to use PC to create something that helps non-combatant roles. The issue with that is the reason that Dust players get into PC is because of the heightened competition that takes place at that level. That will never change. The same corps will follow each other up the ladder to prove they are better than the others. They want battle and they want to engage in activities that helps the further that goal. PC rewards need to be aimed towards escalating that purpose. Turning it into industry slots whether it is in Dust or EVE is not aligned with that desire for PVP.
Why do you keep accusing me of trying to increase protostomping in pub matches? All of my proposals have been about finding ways to use he ISK from PC to increase competition at higher and higher levels. In EVE, 0.0 players use it to build structures and move into bigger and bigger ships. That is what leads to all out brawls like the one that just happened last week where dozens upon dozens of titans and dreads went against each other. That is where PC needs to evolve to.
PC1 needs to be interesting/rewarding/involved enough so players tend to stick to it rather than pub matches
PC2 needs to be interesting/rewarding/involved enough so that players migrate to it over PC1
The idea is to let corps keep evolving so that they leave the lower tiers behind so they an keep up with their competition. As they evolve, it opens up new opportunities for newer players/corps to evolve as well.
You cannot keep older players without continually extending the challenges and rewards for them
You cannot attract new players without having the veterans move to to create room for them
Its not the ISK generation that is the major problem but the lack of evolution in this game. There is nothing bigger or better beyond a proto suit/weapon, a standard tank or owning a simple PC district. That is what needs to be changed. There needs to be stuff that is bigger and better that is only applicable to the evolution of PC and cannot be used in Pub matches. PC needs to allow for tiers so new corps and old can be separated by risk/reward and not some mandated fairness.
Right now you have to face the reality of where this game is and how to take that reality and turn it into something better. There is a base of players with a large amount of funds and it is continuing to grow. Do you remove those funds and alienate a devoted subset of your playerbase or do you find something for them to do with their ISK to create another level of the game? This allows others to move in and begin to fight for the creation of funds and resources to expand to the next level.
You cant get rid of elite players. There will always be someone to come in and take their place.
BetaMax -> Imperfects -> Cronos -> EoN -> RA -> ?
You get rid of one and there will be another just waiting to take their place and this cycle will begin again.
Proud Sponsor of the United Lamp Post Defense Fund. "Protecting Our Skies For A Better Tomorrow"
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1099
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Posted - 2014.02.03 14:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Obodiah Garro - PVE would solve a lot of issues but it is just one step of many that needs to be taken by CCP to flesh out this game.
Drapedup Drippedout - I agree that there is a lack of understanding of the elements of PC from those that might not have participated in it. If they have not been involved in some of the major wars (such as the one between P5 and RA) they would not understand how taxing (time and isk wise) it can be and how enjoyable it can be to face off against other highly skilled players.
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1108
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Posted - 2014.02.03 19:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa
The reasoning for players to enter Dust vs EVE is two separate things. EVE is more of an RPG than Dust is right now. As CCP has stated, Dust mercs are about the acquisition of land for the time being. PC was created as sort of a free form combat structure for competitive gameplay. Just look at those who play it to understand what its being used for.
PC does not and should not be the answer to all aspirations for Dust players. If you want to move towards industry/trade then there should be something for that in Dust. However, the game should not sacrifice in one area to appease others. That is why I advocate for diversity rather than reshifting the base of this game.
Want to get rid of passive isk generation? Then propose something that generates better gear that can only be used in PC battles etc. Allow for something that allows corps to build the sandcastles that we were promised in fanfest.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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