Ok, so English are you trying to tell me that you and Spkr don't play together enough for you two to coordinate and design fits that would compliment each skill set? Beyond that, are you saying that you run mostly solo and bring out HAVs only while running solo? You never squad up with anyone regularly who you trust enough to be a competent driver/gunner, whether they be from your corp or even just old friends?

Coordination and Teamwork are the name of the game, work together with people you regularly play with to train complimentary skill sets and squad together to OMGWTFPWN everything that stands in your way (since we all realize that 1 dedicated driver and 1 dedicated gunner > 1 guy splitting his attention between driving and gunning). It is the most intelligent way to handle HAVs and you know it. It will create the balance where they can have a somewhat softer tank and be killed with AV coordination. Vehicles are stupid OP at the moment and if you can't admit that, I just don't know what to say to that.

HAVs should require teamwork to become true threats on the battlefield. They don't currently, any jackass can hop into an HAV by themselves and run around owning infantry since CCP has buffed vehicles and nerfed AV as they have. I want HAVs to be able to become that true threat on the battlefield, though only for those who are willing and able to coordinate and work as a team.

If all you want is to kick puppies (which is what HAV v Infantry currently is) by yourself, you should biomass, uninstall and go gank unsuspecting haulers and miners in Eve.

Then shouldn't they require the same number of people to run their tanks? I mean... If you are taking 3 people's attention away from focusing on winning the match just to deal with you, shouldn't you require the same number of people to distract them?

I notice that you ignore my assertions regarding comparing Infantry and HAVs and continue to compare them without refuting my assertion that comparing them is the same as comparing kittens and adult male tigers.

Am I expected to believe that if you were in a match alone that you would have any open turret slots for bluedot noobs to get you killed with? You know as well as I do that 90% of the time (if not more) you play Dust, you've got at least 1 or 2 other people in squad with you. Are you telling me that you don't think Spkr or Estwood are "switched on and know what the **** they are doing"? Is that honestly how you feel about them? Even further, do you really not expect to ever play regularly with (and develop trust in) other people who might not be nearly so SP laden as the three of you are?

I can only conclude that you must be trolling as I know that there is no other explanation for how obtuse you are being on the topic.

Will you be happy when you and Spkr only have a handful of other tankers to play against? I bet CCP will love that, yeah, ~100 guys who might be spending cold hard cash for dev time and server space. Dust will lead a really prosperous existence then.

English, do you not wear a dropsuit inside that HAV? I am willing to bet you do, even if it is a bpo suit with nothing more than a bpo gun.

My point is this; you chose to spend 20m+ SP on something that amounts to a second dropsuit encasing your first. The assault with 20m+ sp invested in being infantry isn't choosing to invest sp in a second dropsuit with potentially the room for three. This is why he spawns in with only room for one in his dropsuit and absolutely zero potential to have anyone else to join him in that dropsuit. Tankers want that second dropsuit with that second set of weapons which is why you need to spend that extra SP on HAVs.

Infantry can't bail from their dropsuit when they get deep into armor, tankers can.

Infantry can't achieve 6000 ehp or more, tankers can.

On foot, infantry cannot achieve the speeds that HAVs can.

No single light weapon or even heavy weapon can achieve the raw damage output that HAVs can.

What is the drawback to being encased in that mobile battlestation/panic room?

I'd be willing to bet that HAVs are vastly more complex than dropsuits as well. Infantry are designed and intended to be able to solo. HAVs otoh, have the potential for multiple operators and accordingly have a higher potential to fulfill.

Dropsuits individually achieve their maximum potential with only one operator (this can be enhanced through teamwork, though this isn't 100% necessary for dropsuits to achieve their full potential individually).

HAVs are possessed of vastly more potential in many areas, in order for them to achieve their full potential, they should require multiple operators. The thought that a single operator can unlock a vastly greater amount of potential by themselves is silly and absurd. Since HAVs are force multipliers that bring much more to the table than 4 infantry can, I don't find it unreasonable for them to require 4 operators to achieve their full potential.

They aren't solo pwnmobiles and shouldn't be despite how much you want them to be. If you want to solo in your HAV, you should be restricted to the potential achieveable by any single infantry

So you only every play with Spkr? You never play with anyone else? There are no new players who you might want to help out or teach the ropes to?

What infantry can claim to have 6000+ EHP with hardeners that practically make them immune to nearly all incoming damage?

Comparing Infantry running solo to HAVs running solo is like kittens to adult male tigers, it is a ridiculous comparison that has absolutely no merit since, 1:1 the potential of the HAV >>>>>>> the potential of Infantry. If your HAV only had the same fitting stats and EHP as a dropsuit; or the Infantry had the same fitting stats and EHP as an HAV, then it would be a reasonable comparison.

The two do not equate in the slightest, not from a perspective of cost or stats.

So the only reason you'd deny this as a balancing factor is that you like driving and gunning and don't want to have to choose one or the other?

I never said that it should require 2+ 30m+ SP players work, just that it should take more than 1 player to be truly living up to its full potential. You assumed that I meant it should take both you and Spkr, I only said Spkr since I know that if both of you are on Dust, you're both in the same squad.

While I will not deny that there is a large portion of stupid infantry in Dust, I can't believe that you are so blind to the disparity between Vehicles (specifically HAVs) and Infantry. Seriously, I find that to be mindboggling to such an extent that you must either be trolling or that you view Dust as WoT with infantry ants for you to squish.

Personally, as far as AV is concerned, I feel that had vehicles been buffed to where they are now and AV left untouched, we would not have this disparity we currently have.

Believe it or not, I do want HAVs to be a factor in Dust, though not to the extent that, were it not for Objectives that required infantry to be hacked, Infantry would be an nonfactor.

English, are you purposely being obtuse about this? I mean, how can you think that there isn't anything wrong with the current state of Vehicles in Dust? I remember playing MAG with you and utilizing APCs as a part of the whole, not as the whole itself. We used teamwork with vehicles to compliment both styles of play, yeah we bitched when some stupid bluedot got in the Turret and gave away our position but the point is that we didn't solely rely on vehicles to the exclusion of infantry gameplay.

Do you really care so little about this game that you'd rather the vehicle playstyle either becomes the only reasonable choice or the playerbase burns out on vehicle spam and moves on to other greener infantry pastures (thus killing the game)?

Either way, if that is really how little you care about any playstyle other than the Vehicle playstyle why are you even here? AFAIK, there is better vehicle gameplay here, here or (coming soon) here. Any of which are also free and would give you the OMA vehicle FFA gameplay that you so obviously desire.

English, do you not wear a dropsuit inside that HAV? I am willing to bet you do, even if it is a bpo suit with nothing more than a bpo gun.

My point is this; you chose to spend 20m+ SP on something that amounts to a second dropsuit encasing your first. The assault with 20m+ sp invested in being infantry isn't choosing to invest sp in a second dropsuit with potentially the room for three. This is why he spawns in with only room for one in his dropsuit and absolutely zero potential to have anyone else to join him in that dropsuit. Tankers want that second dropsuit with that second set of weapons which is why you need to spend that extra SP on HAVs.

Infantry can't bail from their dropsuit when they get deep into armor, tankers can.

Infantry can't achieve 6000 ehp or more, tankers can.

On foot, infantry cannot achieve the speeds that HAVs can.

No single light weapon or even heavy weapon can achieve the raw damage output that HAVs can.

What is the drawback to being encased in that mobile battlestation/panic room?

I'd be willing to bet that HAVs are vastly more complex than dropsuits as well. Infantry are designed and intended to be able to solo. HAVs otoh, have the potential for multiple operators and accordingly have a higher potential to fulfill.

Dropsuits individually achieve their maximum potential with only one operator (this can be enhanced through teamwork, though this isn't 100% necessary for dropsuits to achieve their full potential individually).

HAVs are possessed of vastly more potential in many areas, in order for them to achieve their full potential, they should require multiple operators. The thought that a single operator can unlock a vastly greater amount of potential by themselves is silly and absurd. Since HAVs are force multipliers that bring much more to the table than 4 infantry can, I don't find it unreasonable for them to require 4 operators to achieve their full potential.

They aren't solo pwnmobiles and shouldn't be despite how much you want them to be. If you want to solo in your HAV, you should be restricted to the potential achieveable by any single infantry

English, there is an awful lot of conjecture in that post.

I notice that you bring up the breach fg as an attempt to refute my assertion regarding "raw damage output". Correct me if I am wrong, don't breach fg sacrifice RoF and clip size for alpha? Even you state that it is "nearly" the output of a rail. Nearly =/= achieve. Over the course of one minute who does more damage; a fully loaded rail or a fully loaded breach fg?

Though yes, overall I think that a crew served HAV on team would be balanced against a team that had no HAV that was up four infantry (one crew served HAV + 12 infantry v 16 infantry to be clear). I will address your conjecture no further than that.

You do realize that a prof 3 FG can 4 shot thru 90% of tanks w/ hardeners activated? Only the most SP invested tankers take more than 1 clip, and at that, they should. This is what blows my mind, just because swarms cannot solo a tank, all tanks need nerfed?

Dear infantry,
I am not a tanker, I run AV. Get a MLT LAV, equip a scanner and nitrous on said LAV. Drive around and follow tank til dead or retreats to red line. Equip a rail turret for infantry and shields or a missle turret for general purpose. Grab 1 other squad mate.

ENJOY YOUR +150, +50. Tanks are not near as bad as people are making them out to be. Every single merc in New Eden can call in a rail tank to destroy said tank. Then recall it just as easily and get on with life...

It's a force multiplier, dude. There's a reason Panzer battalions were so feared. Tanks are supposed to be powerful and scary.

It's a force multiplier, dude. There's a reason Panzer battalions were so feared. Tanks are supposed to be powerful and scary.

A breach is more than a railgun, add in a proto breach with 2 complex on it and im hitting 2.5k minimum

Over the course of 1 min means **** since the tank is either dead or has rightfully gtfo because when i bring mine out 1 shot is enough to scare away every vehicle i hit

You do know that now right now it is hard enough to find 2 proto AV players in the same match let alone wanting to find 4 proto AV ers which will have to chase that tank around for the entire game and will prob take close to 8 players to kill it if not the entire team if no proto AV exists

Then shouldn't they require the same number of people to run their tanks? I mean... If you are taking 3 people's attention away from focusing on winning the match just to deal with you, shouldn't you require the same number of people to distract them?

Ummm...noo....that won't solve the problem. Good tankers will still roll together and stomp all of you and you'll cry more. Try again.

Ummm...noo....that won't solve the problem. Good tankers will still roll together and stomp all of you and you'll cry more. Try again.

I don'teven low why I get on the forums anymore, its the 8 same posts every couple days.....

ccp should make it so the driver can only use the front turret, and a gunner can use the large turret