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Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2086	Posted - 2014.01.25 17:31:00 - [1] - Quote As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed. It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates. So we currently have: Basic -2 Enhanced -3 Complex -5 And the old penalty was: Basic -3 Enhanced -5 Complex -10 It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic. Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 5482	Posted - 2014.01.25 17:34:00 - [2] - Quote Personaly, I think they're fine. The problem lies with there being no useful alternative, which can only be remedied with more content. We all know how that's going to go down though. Never forget May 14, 2013: Beta 2.0
Green Living 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1173	Posted - 2014.01.25 17:34:00 - [3] - Quote Yeah, I would stop using them if they were returned to old speed decreases. While I love the extra HP, I still prefer to be speedy.
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 1904	Posted - 2014.01.25 17:35:00 - [4] - Quote Armour tankers are stand and deliver kind of guys, thats why they have so much more HP then shield users, who can run fast, and regen quickly, but cant tank much damage. Make the plates have higher movement speed penalty. Minmatar Assault. Hopeful Caldari Scout soon. praying for that respec.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1010	Posted - 2014.01.25 17:42:00 - [5] - Quote As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. To apply to L.O.T.I.S. or to squad with us, join our public chat channel: L.O.T.I.S.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2086	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:07:00 - [6] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. No argument here. I'd still use them, but I'd stop using them shield based suits. Probably switch out to regulators or profile damps/range amps. Or maybe even use kincats+cardio mods. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals Seituoda Taskforce Command 979	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:10:00 - [7] - Quote I hope not. If they brought the speed penalty back and everyone does, well, i'd be out of a job. Lore-wise: Calamari are my preferred. Amarricans are my despised. Importantly: Frogs n' Brutes have all my stuff...
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 456	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:10:00 - [8] - Quote So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. Henchmen21: Infantry Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2086	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:14:00 - [9] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. It would stop the 1.8 Gallente/Amarr scouts from being OP and using 4 plates in the lows(well not stop, but make it less appealing) "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2086	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:40:00 - [10] - Quote Let's gets armour plates on page. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire

Dericha A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 16	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:46:00 - [11] - Quote I think it's part of the CCP grand plan to make Logis a logistic role and still relevant more so than to add to the assault gun game. If we go back to shield tanking, everyone will stop using rep tools again. I have always armor tanked and before the speed buff, it was extremely difficult in a PC to drop an uplink in a non-terribad location and keep up with the heavies pushing an objective. But not wearing the plates meant dying a lot more and not being able to do my job. With that, I am anti- speed penalty increases. Also, with what we know of 1.8, EHP is going to matter. A good defense and counter will be more than the number of plates you have and preliminary calculations show the Amarr Sentinel having a better overall EHP than the Gallente against most weapon types. All this said, this patch does seem to be heading towards working on the logi/heavy roles.
Waiyu Ren Immortal Guides 16	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:55:00 - [12] - Quote I use 2 basics on my Gal-logi, because it has no other slots to use. I can't increase my shield, and i have to increase something.... That extra 0.25-0.5 second buffer between "running" around and doing stuff, and lying down to quietly bleed. (Why does the basic Gal-logi suck so hard? all its friends get a 3rd or 4th slot...... Why only 2 for me? I already suck, i need that extra slot!)
Ghermard-ol Dizeriois Maphia Clan Corporation 115	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:58:00 - [13] - Quote 110 +10% = 121 135 + 10% = 148 which means 27 more HP Are they really worth an addictional 2% penalty in speed? If you are an hacker, a cheater o a glitcher, you deserve death. In real life.
Teilka Darkmist 69	Posted - 2014.01.25 18:59:00 - [14] - Quote Armour plates don't have a speed penalty? You're adding plates to your dropsuit which means adding weight. A speed penalty should be a no brainer. The addition in weight is the whole reason a heavy suit is slower than a medium or light one. When I play as a sniper, I'm more likely to be nearer to the opponents redline than my own.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2979	Posted - 2014.01.25 19:21:00 - [15] - Quote We went through this before. Months and months of armour users pointing out that the stuff just couldn't compete with shields. The newer penalties are far more noticeable than you may think, and some space still has to be saved for reps in many cases. No.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 920	Posted - 2014.01.25 19:30:00 - [16] - Quote speed tanking is dead. the movement penalty isn't that much of a deal anymore except for the armor stacking on scoutz and they are the least of anyones worries. The Need for infantry speed used to be one of the most challenging and enjoyable factors of DUST 514. The varying speed and challenge on your aiming abilities to adjust. Struggling like a Tennis player who had the tennis ball slammed at their face to adjust and defend yourself as the speedy hostile put pressure on you. I guess Easy mode Battleduty in Space has saved DUST from the successes it had not being that.
sira draco Ancient Erectiles 48	Posted - 2014.01.25 19:35:00 - [17] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed. It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates. So we currently have: Basic -2 Enhanced -3 Complex -5 And the old penalty was: Basic -3 Enhanced -5 Complex -10 It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic. Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless. I agree, armor tankers can still move at a decent speed, they should lose more speed
OverIord Ulath Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.01.25 21:52:00 - [18] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1706	Posted - 2014.01.25 21:55:00 - [19] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed. It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates. So we currently have: Basic -2 Enhanced -3 Complex -5 And the old penalty was: Basic -3 Enhanced -5 Complex -10 It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic. Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless. I would you have no idea how detrimental even a 10% speed penalty is. Armor and Shields are not the same!
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 336	Posted - 2014.01.25 21:58:00 - [20] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed. It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates. So we currently have: Basic -2 Enhanced -3 Complex -5 And the old penalty was: Basic -3 Enhanced -5 Complex -10 It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic. Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless. Should be 5% for all plates. Giving interest to Complex Plates. And Ferroscale. The Hp value is already too high. (Once the unbalanced weapons got nerfed.) Plates should not be the "default" choice. I need drawbacks. Speed players should not be able to fit plates (even basic) without real penality (2% come on...) Reactives should cost same PG/CPU than regular plates since they have 1/2 of hp value for 1/2hp/s.

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5974	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:01:00 - [21] - Quote I would never use a complex plate ever again if the penalty came back to 10. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1707	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:02:00 - [22] - Quote OverIord Ulath wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers. What are the drawbacks to shields? Shield pros: Self repairing More resistant to damage No speed loss An insignificant penalty Is not your life line Shield cons: shield delay A maximum of 35% HP difference between shield and armor Flux grenades (rarely used) Armor and Shields are not the same!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5974	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:04:00 - [23] - Quote OverIord Ulath wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers. You can compensate for your penalty using low slots. We can't compensate for our penalty using high slots. Also, speed > Recharge delay. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1707	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:04:00 - [24] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I would never use a complex plate ever again if the penalty came back to 10. How do you armor tank? Armor and Shields are not the same!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5974	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:05:00 - [25] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I would never use a complex plate ever again if the penalty came back to 10. How do you armor tank? I use a complex plate, an enhanced plate, a complex repairer and a dampener. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5974	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:06:00 - [26] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed. It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates. So we currently have: Basic -2 Enhanced -3 Complex -5 And the old penalty was: Basic -3 Enhanced -5 Complex -10 It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic. Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless. Should be 5% for all plates. Giving interest to Complex Plates. And Ferroscale. The Hp value is already too high. (Once the unbalanced weapons got nerfed.) Plates should not be the "default" choice. I need drawbacks. Speed players should not be able to fit plates (even basic) without real penality (2% come on...) Reactives should cost same PG/CPU than regular plates since they have 1/2 of hp value for 1/2hp/s. Ferroscale plates really need a CPU/PG reduction. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
OverIord Ulath Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:08:00 - [27] - Quote The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them. Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5977	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:18:00 - [28] - Quote OverIord Ulath wrote: The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them. Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge. The HP increase was 20 per plate. It's not really a groundbreaking buff. Also, if CCP returns plates to the old values, I would never, EVER use complex plates, because the HP gain is miniscule as is. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1707	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:20:00 - [29] - Quote OverIord Ulath wrote: The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them. Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge. What if we increased the penalty of armor yatti yatti but we also gave shield extenders an equally detrimental penalty such as a speed loss. For the record you may say speed tanking is dead but if you can't out strafe aim aassist which isn't even as magnetic as it used to be then you got problems. Anyways what if we made shields increase your delay so much that it wasn't as self repairing as it used to. But to balance it we made a repair tool for it, because you know people are oh so eager to help. That seems fair don't you think? Armor and Shields are not the same!
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1048	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:32:00 - [30] - Quote Ghermard-ol Dizeriois wrote: 110 +10% = 121 135 + 10% = 148 which means 27 more HP Are they really worth an addictional 2% penalty in speed? This^^^ 85 = 3% speed penalty 110 - 85 = 25 =/= +2% speed penalty = 141.66 =/= 110 135 - 85 = 50 =/= +7% speed penalty = 283.33 =/= 135 {:)}{3GÇó>

Mortedeamor 1285	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:35:00 - [31] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. It would stop the 1.8 Gallente/Amarr scouts from being OP and using 4 plates in the lows(well not stop, but make it less appealing) the amar scout will be incredibly up jihhhaders = av lvl 0 swarm master = av lvl 99+
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 242	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:38:00 - [32] - Quote Just make shields easier to fit, have more hp, and cause the difference that STD and ADV plates have from PRO plates to be equal to the difference STD and ADV shields have from PRO shields, keeping the PRO armor plate as it is. Shields should be super easy to fit pg wise, but difficult to fit cpu wise, however that is not the case, as they currently cost second most cpu of any module in the game (damage mods are #1), and still a ludicrous pg cost that is only one less than armor plates. It just doesn't make sense Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 242	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:42:00 - [33] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them. Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge. What if we increased the penalty of armor yatti yatti but we also gave shield extenders an equally detrimental penalty such as a speed loss. For the record you may say speed tanking is dead but if you can't out strafe aim aassist which isn't even as magnetic as it used to be then you got problems. Anyways what if we made shields increase your delay so much that it wasn't as self repairing as it used to. But to balance it we made a repair tool for it, because you know people are oh so eager to help. That seems fair don't you think? No, because it takes away the shields niche of high regen, and low hp, good for lone wolfing. The problem is armor is currently 2-4 times as much hp as shields, have better sources of regeneration, very low penalty and high hp at basic and adv level, cost a lot less than shields do, and open up high slots for damage mods. Also, the argument that biotics and shields is better than plates and damage mods is made null by the fact that shield tankers have low pg, and biotic modules require the most pg, and aim assist defeats strafing unless the kill is made in under 1 second, so that the enemy doesn't have time to get his reticule near you Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 242	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:51:00 - [34] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers. What are the drawbacks to shields? Shield pros: Self repairing More resistant to damage No speed loss An insignificant penalty Is not your life line Shield cons: shield delay A maximum of 35% HP difference between shield and armor Flux grenades (rarely used) Shield delay can be reduced with your low slots That HP difference is only in fully stacked shields vs fully stacked armor but in reality an omni tanked shield suit has more HP than an omni tanked armor suit Flux grenades are rarely used but shield tanks love them as a con. Shields are more resistant to damage than armor due to there being more weapons to kill armor than shields and the overall damage profiles being shifted to kill armor. 1. true, they are. however, armor repairs better than shields and is not interrupted if the person is sitting on a hive, or has logo support 2. That is false. They are not and this is a misconception. The are 10% more resistant to rail and combat rifles, but thats it. 3. Yes, there is no speed penalty, but they do have a shield depleted recharge delay penalty which is really significant is you get shot because it takes very few shots to fully deplete your shield, and then you must hunker down behind cover for a LONG time, whereas an armor tanker could just put down a hive once his shields started getting hit, and be invincible. 4. see above 5. They are your lifeline unless you are a damage stacking gallente or amarr with armor in the lows. cons 1. This makes armor repairing in some cases even more effective than shield repairing because there is no delay 2. This statement is blatantly false. a basic extender=22 hp, a basic plate=85 hp which is about 4 times as much as the extender, for almost no penalty whatsoever for the armor tanker. At proto level, a plate is still more than twice as much hp as an extender. 3. Flux grenades are not rarely used like shield tanking is rarely used, they are rarely used like an assault rifle is rarely used. You are blatantly wrong in all of your points, and i don't understand your attempt to misinform anyone who reads this of the problems with shields currently. Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1708	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:53:00 - [35] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them. Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge. What if we increased the penalty of armor yatti yatti but we also gave shield extenders an equally detrimental penalty such as a speed loss. For the record you may say speed tanking is dead but if you can't out strafe aim aassist which isn't even as magnetic as it used to be then you got problems. Anyways what if we made shields increase your delay so much that it wasn't as self repairing as it used to. But to balance it we made a repair tool for it, because you know people are oh so eager to help. That seems fair don't you think? No, because it takes away the shields niche of high regen, and low hp, good for lone wolfing. The problem is armor is currently 2-4 times as much hp as shields, have better sources of regeneration, very low penalty and high hp at basic and adv level, cost a lot less than shields do, and open up high slots for damage mods. Also, the argument that biotics and shields is better than plates and damage mods is made null by the fact that shield tankers have low pg, and biotic modules require the most pg, and aim assist defeats strafing unless the kill is made in under 1 second, so that the enemy doesn't have time to get his reticule near you No like I said a full stacked shield suit vs an armor suit only he 35% less HE and both omni tanked the shield suit actually has more hp Armor and Shields are not the same!
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 951	Posted - 2014.01.25 22:55:00 - [36] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed. It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates. So we currently have: Basic -2 Enhanced -3 Complex -5 And the old penalty was: Basic -3 Enhanced -5 Complex -10 It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic. Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless. Dust trust the UI for Movement Speed when Armor plates are added. I tested an Assault suit with multiple plates and even though the UI showed a MS of 4.29, I moved slower than a Heavy without plates. Uprising 1.7 - TANKDOMINATION!!1!!1! LOL Commando LOL Plasma Cannon
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1048	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:01:00 - [37] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers. What are the drawbacks to shields? Shield pros: Self repairing More resistant to damage No speed loss An insignificant penalty Is not your life line Shield cons: shield delay A maximum of 35% HP difference between shield and armor Flux grenades (rarely used) Shield delay can be reduced with your low slots That HP difference is only in fully stacked shields vs fully stacked armor but in reality an omni tanked shield suit has more HP than an omni tanked armor suit Flux grenades are rarely used but shield tanks love them as a con. Shields are more resistant to damage than armor due to there being more weapons to kill armor than shields and the overall damage profiles being shifted to kill armor. 1. true, they are. however, armor repairs better than shields and is not interrupted if the person is sitting on a hive, or has logo support 2. That is false. They are not and this is a misconception. The are 10% more resistant to rail and combat rifles, but thats it. 3. Yes, there is no speed penalty, but they do have a shield depleted recharge delay penalty which is really significant is you get shot because it takes very few shots to fully deplete your shield, and then you must hunker down behind cover for a LONG time, whereas an armor tanker could just put down a hive once his shields started getting hit, and be invincible. 4. see above 5. They are your lifeline unless you are a damage stacking gallente or amarr with armor in the lows. cons 1. This makes armor repairing in some cases even more effective than shield repairing because there is no delay 2. This statement is blatantly false. a basic extender=22 hp, a basic plate=85 hp which is about 4 times as much as the extender, for almost no penalty whatsoever for the armor tanker. At proto level, a plate is still more than twice as much hp as an extender. 3. Flux grenades are not rarely used like shield tanking is rarely used, they are rarely used like an assault rifle is rarely used. You are blatantly wrong in all of your points, and i don't understand your attempt to misinform anyone who reads this of the problems with shields currently. I'd support an increase in speed penalty when shield tankers will support a penalty to shields that actually matters. Like a 10% increase to profile signature at the complex level, so 66/+10% profile signature. {:)}{3GÇó>
Tectonic Fusion 1009	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:25:00 - [38] - Quote I'd personally make the penalties 3-5-7. It would still be better than shields so it would be okay. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
OverIord Ulath Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:29:00 - [39] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers. What are the drawbacks to shields? Shield pros: Self repairing More resistant to damage No speed loss An insignificant penalty Is not your life line Shield cons: shield delay A maximum of 35% HP difference between shield and armor Flux grenades (rarely used) Shield delay can be reduced with your low slots That HP difference is only in fully stacked shields vs fully stacked armor but in reality an omni tanked shield suit has more HP than an omni tanked armor suit Flux grenades are rarely used but shield tanks love them as a con. Shields are more resistant to damage than armor due to there being more weapons to kill armor than shields and the overall damage profiles being shifted to kill armor. 1. true, they are. however, armor repairs better than shields and is not interrupted if the person is sitting on a hive, or has logo support 2. That is false. They are not and this is a misconception. The are 10% more resistant to rail and combat rifles, but thats it. 3. Yes, there is no speed penalty, but they do have a shield depleted recharge delay penalty which is really significant is you get shot because it takes very few shots to fully deplete your shield, and then you must hunker down behind cover for a LONG time, whereas an armor tanker could just put down a hive once his shields started getting hit, and be invincible. 4. see above 5. They are your lifeline unless you are a damage stacking gallente or amarr with armor in the lows. cons 1. This makes armor repairing in some cases even more effective than shield repairing because there is no delay 2. This statement is blatantly false. a basic extender=22 hp, a basic plate=85 hp which is about 4 times as much as the extender, for almost no penalty whatsoever for the armor tanker. At proto level, a plate is still more than twice as much hp as an extender. 3. Flux grenades are not rarely used like shield tanking is rarely used, they are rarely used like an assault rifle is rarely used. You are blatantly wrong in all of your points, and i don't understand your attempt to misinform anyone who reads this of the problems with shields currently. I'd support an increase in speed penalty when shield tankers will support a penalty to shields that actually matters. Like a 10% increase to profile signature at the complex level, so 66/+10% profile signature. I'll support that, as long as shields get at least 2/3 the HP of armor modules for like-tier modules (ie: basic armor plate; 85HP, basic shield extender; 56.6 HP). Since we'll be visible to EVERYONE without even having to scan us, that should be perfectly fair.
Draxus Prime BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 2625	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:33:00 - [40] - Quote ps cody gg one does not simply SG me "Imagine a world where hypothetical thoughts didn't exist" -Draxus Prime Closed Beta Vet Nova Knife Proficeiney 5 \o/

Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2092	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:35:00 - [41] - Quote Draxus Prime wrote: ps cody gg one does not simply SG me Ty, I heard my buddies shout "Nova Knifer!" 20 times in that match xD GG "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 731	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:37:00 - [42] - Quote I still see galante logi's dodge like crazy with 500 armor... *Assassination is my thing.*
Tectonic Fusion 1009	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:45:00 - [43] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: I still see galante logi's dodge like crazy with 500 armor... And they're not even our greatest threat... Solo Player Squad status: Locked
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1649	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:51:00 - [44] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. No argument here. I'd still use them, but I'd stop using them shield based suits. Probably switch out to regulators or profile damps/range amps. Or maybe even use kincats+cardio mods. Thats really what we would be after. Personally I am in the frame of mind that 1) Ferroscale Plates should have less of health bonus than Shield Extenders as there are no combat related penalties. 2) Reactive Plates need looking at, in order to be viable, currently they just don't have the bonuses to justify use. 3) Current Plates should have a reduced health bonus and reduced penalty (4% per plate maximum), then re-designate as light plates. 4) Add Heavy plates that have current health bonus + ~10%, then speed penalty starts at 10% 5) Give shield tankers, shield based equivalent of ferroscale and reactive plates. 6) Give Armour tankers, armour based equivalent of Shield energizer Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:51:00 - [45] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I'd support an increase in speed penalty when shield tankers will support a penalty to shields that actually matters. Like a 10% increase to profile signature at the complex level, so 66/+10% profile signature. Yes. Let's nerf Minmatar and Caldari scouts.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1048	Posted - 2014.01.25 23:57:00 - [46] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I'd support an increase in speed penalty when shield tankers will support a penalty to shields that actually matters. Like a 10% increase to profile signature at the complex level, so 66/+10% profile signature. Yes. Let's nerf Minmatar and Caldari scouts. Yes. Let's nerf Gallente and Amarr scouts. {:)}{3GÇó>
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2093	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:31:00 - [47] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. No argument here. I'd still use them, but I'd stop using them shield based suits. Probably switch out to regulators or profile damps/range amps. Or maybe even use kincats+cardio mods. Thats really what we would be after. Personally I am in the frame of mind that 1) Ferroscale Plates should have less of health bonus than Shield Extenders as there are no combat related penalties. 2) Reactive Plates need looking at, in order to be viable, currently they just don't have the bonuses to justify use. 3) Current Plates should have a reduced health bonus and reduced penalty (4% per plate maximum), then re-designate as light plates. 4) Add Heavy plates that have current health bonus + ~10%, then speed penalty starts at 10% 5) Give shield tankers, shield based equivalent of ferroscale and reactive plates. 6) Give Armour tankers, armour based equivalent of Shield energizer 1 agreed, but I think it should be done by increasing shield extender hp slightly. 2 I'd move them to the high slot personally. 3 I really like this, but I honestly don't think it would not work. Not sure why...Still like the idea. 4 see 3 5 I think we run the risk of making armour and shield too alike. 6 see 5 "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:32:00 - [48] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I'd support an increase in speed penalty when shield tankers will support a penalty to shields that actually matters. Like a 10% increase to profile signature at the complex level, so 66/+10% profile signature. Yes. Let's nerf Minmatar and Caldari scouts. Yes. Let's nerf Gallente and Amarr scouts. Too bad the nerfs would not be not nearly on the same level. Caldari and Minmatar would be hit much harder.
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 761	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:42:00 - [49] - Quote Armor is fine Shields should get there regen rate buffed to make them better fit their role
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1048	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:44:00 - [50] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I'd support an increase in speed penalty when shield tankers will support a penalty to shields that actually matters. Like a 10% increase to profile signature at the complex level, so 66/+10% profile signature. Yes. Let's nerf Minmatar and Caldari scouts. Yes. Let's nerf Gallente and Amarr scouts. Too bad the nerfs would not be not nearly on the same level. Caldari and Minmatar would be hit much harder. Says who? {:)}{3GÇó>

Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 610	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:53:00 - [51] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: I'd support an increase in speed penalty when shield tankers will support a penalty to shields that actually matters. Like a 10% increase to profile signature at the complex level, so 66/+10% profile signature. Yes. Let's nerf Minmatar and Caldari scouts. Yes. Let's nerf Gallente and Amarr scouts. Too bad the nerfs would not be not nearly on the same level. Caldari and Minmatar would be hit much harder. Says who? Aparrently, your ability to understand a simple conversations is severely limited. Par for the course, I guess.
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1651	Posted - 2014.01.26 00:54:00 - [52] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. No argument here. I'd still use them, but I'd stop using them shield based suits. Probably switch out to regulators or profile damps/range amps. Or maybe even use kincats+cardio mods. Thats really what we would be after. Personally I am in the frame of mind that 1) Ferroscale Plates should have less of health bonus than Shield Extenders as there are no combat related penalties. 2) Reactive Plates need looking at, in order to be viable, currently they just don't have the bonuses to justify use. 3) Current Plates should have a reduced health bonus and reduced penalty (4% per plate maximum), then re-designate as light plates. 4) Add Heavy plates that have current health bonus + ~10%, then speed penalty starts at 10% 5) Give shield tankers, shield based equivalent of ferroscale and reactive plates. 6) Give Armour tankers, armour based equivalent of Shield energizer 1 agreed, but I think it should be done by increasing shield extender hp slightly. 2 I'd move them to the high slot personally. 3 I really like this, but I honestly don't think it would not work. Not sure why...Still like the idea. 4 see 3 5 I think we run the risk of making armour and shield too alike. 6 see 5 I understand what you mean about light heavymplates not working. I can see it too, but its the only way armour tankers can have their cakeand eat it without shirld users throwing the teddies out the cot. I see what you are saying concerning making shields and armour too alike, but I still firmly believe that shields should get somr form of hybrid extender. One that has more than just a health bonus, becausevthat is pretty unfair to give armour so muchbchoice but not shields Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 248	Posted - 2014.01.26 01:00:00 - [53] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them. Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge. What if we increased the penalty of armor yatti yatti but we also gave shield extenders an equally detrimental penalty such as a speed loss. For the record you may say speed tanking is dead but if you can't out strafe aim aassist which isn't even as magnetic as it used to be then you got problems. Anyways what if we made shields increase your delay so much that it wasn't as self repairing as it used to. But to balance it we made a repair tool for it, because you know people are oh so eager to help. That seems fair don't you think? No, because it takes away the shields niche of high regen, and low hp, good for lone wolfing. The problem is armor is currently 2-4 times as much hp as shields, have better sources of regeneration, very low penalty and high hp at basic and adv level, cost a lot less than shields do, and open up high slots for damage mods. Also, the argument that biotics and shields is better than plates and damage mods is made null by the fact that shield tankers have low pg, and biotic modules require the most pg, and aim assist defeats strafing unless the kill is made in under 1 second, so that the enemy doesn't have time to get his reticule near you No like I said a full stacked shield suit vs an armor suit only he 35% less HE and both omni tanked the shield suit actually has more hp We are comparing modules, not suits. Currently, armor modules are 2-4x as effective as shield mods, with almost no penalty except at proto level. Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1048	Posted - 2014.01.26 01:36:00 - [54] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Apparently, your ability to understand a simple conversations is severely limited. Par for the course, I guess. And you sir, are a moron. (you see how easy that is, and childish. ) shakes his head {:)}{3GÇó>
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1710	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:13:00 - [55] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers. SNIP 1. true, they are. however, armor repairs better than shields and is not interrupted if the person is sitting on a hive, or has logo support 2. That is false. They are not and this is a misconception. The are 10% more resistant to rail and combat rifles, but thats it. 3. Yes, there is no speed penalty, but they do have a shield depleted recharge delay penalty which is really significant is you get shot because it takes very few shots to fully deplete your shield, and then you must hunker down behind cover for a LONG time, whereas an armor tanker could just put down a hive once his shields started getting hit, and be invincible. 4. see above 5. They are your lifeline unless you are a damage stacking gallente or amarr with armor in the lows. cons 1. This makes armor repairing in some cases even more effective than shield repairing because there is no delay 2. This statement is blatantly false. a basic extender=22 hp, a basic plate=85 hp which is about 4 times as much as the extender, for almost no penalty whatsoever for the armor tanker. At proto level, a plate is still more than twice as much hp as an extender. 3. Flux grenades are not rarely used like shield tanking is rarely used, they are rarely used like an assault rifle is rarely used. You are blatantly wrong in all of your points, and i don't understand your attempt to misinform anyone who reads this of the problems with shields currently. No I am not, I will explain. Shields are self repairing but the repair is inefficient yes this is true. But when allowed to repair it is stronger than any form of armor repair. Although armor repair cannot be interrupted there is no significant reduction in DPS, unlike eve a passive repair tank does not provide a significant reduction in incoming damage. Now if this person is sitting on like 3 wyrm hives and core repair tool on him then dam straight that is OP and that's when you have a point but this type of tanking takes a lot of effort so we can ignore it because it doesn't really exist. Yes they are more resistant to damage. When you are out on the field there are only two viable shield killing weapons the AR and the ScR, the AR is slowly dying so eventually this one can be ruled out. As for armor killers we have grenades, Rail, CR, and snipers. As viable weapons that don't suck, soon you will also have the bolt pistol and the magsec which outclass any shield killing side arm. Come on you can't be serious? Does 1 second of waiting really compare to a lifetime of a 15% speed penalty? Really? As for waiting to recharge your wait time is freaking 30 seconds, while armor waits 80-never. You cannot be invincible with a hive, for starters you are easy to flank and the repair is out dpsed by a factor of 20... See above I guess? They are not your life line if your shields are gone you have a secondary tank to fall back on... When my armor takes damage I am already going for cover. The more damage I take on my armor the harder it is to get back in battle. And that's leaves me vulnerable to be flanked etc Armor repairers are efficient in the short run not the long run, and by the short run that's like 7 seconds. This statement is definitely not false. Let's use a Gallente vs a Caldari 4 slots into the main tank. Base HP for main tank is 262.5 for main tank, complex armor = 135 complex shield = 66, 135x4= 540, 66x4=264. 262.5+540= 802.5 ARMOR HP on a Gallente, 262.5 + 264=526.5, 526.5/802.5=0.65 or a 35% HP difference between fully stacked shield and armor. That is definitely not double the HP. Flux grenades are rarely used... There is no misinformation in that post because math. Armor and Shields are not the same!
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1710	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:15:00 - [56] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them. Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge. What if we increased the penalty of armor yatti yatti but we also gave shield extenders an equally detrimental penalty such as a speed loss. For the record you may say speed tanking is dead but if you can't out strafe aim aassist which isn't even as magnetic as it used to be then you got problems. Anyways what if we made shields increase your delay so much that it wasn't as self repairing as it used to. But to balance it we made a repair tool for it, because you know people are oh so eager to help. That seems fair don't you think? No, because it takes away the shields niche of high regen, and low hp, good for lone wolfing. The problem is armor is currently 2-4 times as much hp as shields, have better sources of regeneration, very low penalty and high hp at basic and adv level, cost a lot less than shields do, and open up high slots for damage mods. Also, the argument that biotics and shields is better than plates and damage mods is made null by the fact that shield tankers have low pg, and biotic modules require the most pg, and aim assist defeats strafing unless the kill is made in under 1 second, so that the enemy doesn't have time to get his reticule near you No like I said a full stacked shield suit vs an armor suit only he 35% less HE and both omni tanked the shield suit actually has more hp We are comparing modules, not suits. Currently, armor modules are 2-4x as effective as shield mods, with almost no penalty except at proto level. You can't compare a module without the suit involved the module makes the freaking suit not the other way around... that's like saying a commando is better than a Assault because his numbers are higher... and if I recall correctly current commandos suck... Armor and Shields are not the same!
4447 ZionTCD Public Disorder. 964	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:15:00 - [57] - Quote i don't like armour because it's my last HP until i die. Troll, For lifeGÇª But maybe a dragon, uh a bigger dragon.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3928	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:18:00 - [58] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. It seems like a great way to bring them in line with Shield Extenders... Next On To-Do List: Particle Cannons
Pete B Blood Unit 13 Zero-Day 87	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:20:00 - [59] - Quote Not gonna read the entire thread but gonna add my two cents. As a Logi that throws down armour onto everything, I think that armour is pretty perfect where it is now. The HP gain vs the speed lose is in a sweet spot at the minute, and the resource use is also very good. I cannot see for the life of me what your are complaining about. If you said something about Shield gain then yes, but for armour, its pretty great where it is.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 669	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:21:00 - [60] - Quote 80 health is about two more bullets as long as you're not using an Assault Scrambler Rifle. Anyways, I'd still use armor plates, since I'm Gallente. But I wouldn't dare to go beyond 500 health on a medium suit. 430 is enough. And I've never placed plates on my scout. I tried, but I prefer biotics.

Pete B Blood Unit 13 Zero-Day 87	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:24:00 - [61] - Quote Atiim wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. It seems like a great way to bring them in line with Shield Extenders... Shield extenders should be buffed, armour shouldn't be nerfed. I feel that armour is the 'stick to a spot, be useful and be durable' type of HP, where shields is 'hit and run' style HP. Right now shields do its job, maybe basic and enhanced are a bit low, but they do their job mostly. Armour though is taken down just as fast as shields meaning that don't do their job of being more durable than shields which is the only upside to them. Right now I would be all for making armour more durable AND have a higher speed penalty, but as they are now, its at a good medium.
Lazy Scumbag Intara Direct Action Caldari State 107	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:27:00 - [62] - Quote There is nothing OP about armor. It got buffed the same day the AA and hit detection went off the charts. For people who have armor tanked all along, we still die much faster than before the 'fix'. The need for more hp is across the board, as demonstrated by the migration to armor. Nobody wants to see a fit they built insta-popped. It doesn't exactly highlight the feature of creating your own loadouts. Honestly, Rail rifles and even ARs are far too effective at long range. I'm getting killed by people more or less in front of me before I can even locate the tiny dot shooting at me. Everyone hates snipers, but the new weapons have turned many players into small scale snipers. Because these weapons don't just chip away at a target's health, they kill them... very quickly, regardless of how much armor they are stacking. Never thought I'd see a thread whining about the effectiveness of armor.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 163	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:36:00 - [63] - Quote Peoples arguments in this thread are for the most part unfounded. Since the changes came and speed lost its ability to mitigate damage, (I am looking at the aim assist amongst other things) right now its virtually all about fighting toe to toe and who ever has the highest amount of HP and most damage mods generally wins. Just look at the way everyone is fitting stuff right now. The fact that so many people are now fitting up heavy suits with light weapons, damage mods and using the heavy tank - with little regard for speed - tells you all you need to know. The thing is CCP has the metrics for all of this stuff so it should be them that are trying to balance tanking types. They managed to do it pretty well in EVE and in EVE you have both Armour remote repairing and shield remote repairing. (Shield AND Armour repair tools basically). It will be hard to keep both the tanking types vastly different and to keep them both balanced. There may have to be some overlap or some similarities between the two types. I would rather that and have a somewhat balanced situation than the obviously imbalanced situation we have now where slapping on plates is the general way forward.
Pete B Blood Unit 13 Zero-Day 87	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:40:00 - [64] - Quote Lazy Scumbag wrote: There is nothing OP about armor. It got buffed the same day the AA and hit detection went off the charts. For people who have armor tanked all along, we still die much faster than before the 'fix'. The need for more hp is across the board, as demonstrated by the migration to armor. Nobody wants to see a fit they built insta-popped. It doesn't exactly highlight the feature of creating your own loadouts. Honestly, Rail rifles and even ARs are far too effective at long range. I'm getting killed by people more or less in front of me before I can even locate the tiny dot shooting at me. Everyone hates snipers, but the new weapons have turned many players into small scale snipers. Because these weapons don't just chip away at a target's health, they kill them... very quickly, regardless of how much armor they are stacking. Never thought I'd see a thread whining about the effectiveness of armor. I could not agree more. My issue is also with the fact that the difference between effectiveness on different types of HP as well. 110 on shields and 90 on armour is an assault rifle, and what, 90 on shields and 110 on armour with a RR? They are basically the same, and gives no real pros or cons to using one HP or weapon over the other when it comes to different effectiveness. In this case its all about which does gives higher HP or does more damage rather than which one is effective at what. In this case, you might as well stick with armour if you want higher HP, but even then CCP somehow makes 80Armour the same as 33shields, which makes it more of 'how fast do you want to move' more than 'what is your playstyle'.
Lazy Scumbag Intara Direct Action Caldari State 109	Posted - 2014.01.26 02:53:00 - [65] - Quote Pete B wrote: Lazy Scumbag wrote: There is nothing OP about armor. It got buffed the same day the AA and hit detection went off the charts. For people who have armor tanked all along, we still die much faster than before the 'fix'. The need for more hp is across the board, as demonstrated by the migration to armor. Nobody wants to see a fit they built insta-popped. It doesn't exactly highlight the feature of creating your own loadouts. Honestly, Rail rifles and even ARs are far too effective at long range. I'm getting killed by people more or less in front of me before I can even locate the tiny dot shooting at me. Everyone hates snipers, but the new weapons have turned many players into small scale snipers. Because these weapons don't just chip away at a target's health, they kill them... very quickly, regardless of how much armor they are stacking. Never thought I'd see a thread whining about the effectiveness of armor. I could not agree more. My issue is also with the fact that the difference between effectiveness on different types of HP as well. 110 on shields and 90 on armour is an assault rifle, and what, 90 on shields and 110 on armour with a RR? They are basically the same, and gives no real pros or cons to using one HP or weapon over the other when it comes to different effectiveness. In this case its all about which does gives higher HP or does more damage rather than which one is effective at what. In this case, you might as well stick with armour if you want higher HP, but even then CCP somehow makes 80Armour the same as 33shields, which makes it more of 'how fast do you want to move' more than 'what is your playstyle'. Right. Also the positive/ negative bonuses to damage types seems like a bad idea. I really feel that weapons should do flat base damage, which should be mitigated whatever % by shields or armor. The way it is now... Example: you throw a grenade at someone, as soon as their shields are depleted, armor actually somehow interacts with the explosive to give it a damage buff? Grenades are the best example, since the damage calculation greatly favors shield tankers. The damage types as a whole favor shields over armor. If you total and average the damage bonuses, shields average a 5% resistance to the various damage types, while armor averages a 10% penalty.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1710	Posted - 2014.01.26 03:07:00 - [66] - Quote Lazy Scumbag wrote: Pete B wrote: Lazy Scumbag wrote: There is nothing OP about armor. It got buffed the same day the AA and hit detection went off the charts. For people who have armor tanked all along, we still die much faster than before the 'fix'. The need for more hp is across the board, as demonstrated by the migration to armor. Nobody wants to see a fit they built insta-popped. It doesn't exactly highlight the feature of creating your own loadouts. Honestly, Rail rifles and even ARs are far too effective at long range. I'm getting killed by people more or less in front of me before I can even locate the tiny dot shooting at me. Everyone hates snipers, but the new weapons have turned many players into small scale snipers. Because these weapons don't just chip away at a target's health, they kill them... very quickly, regardless of how much armor they are stacking. Never thought I'd see a thread whining about the effectiveness of armor. I could not agree more. My issue is also with the fact that the difference between effectiveness on different types of HP as well. 110 on shields and 90 on armour is an assault rifle, and what, 90 on shields and 110 on armour with a RR? They are basically the same, and gives no real pros or cons to using one HP or weapon over the other when it comes to different effectiveness. In this case its all about which does gives higher HP or does more damage rather than which one is effective at what. In this case, you might as well stick with armour if you want higher HP, but even then CCP somehow makes 80Armour the same as 33shields, which makes it more of 'how fast do you want to move' more than 'what is your playstyle'. Right. Also the positive/ negative bonuses to damage types seems like a bad idea. I really feel that weapons should do flat base damage, which should be mitigated whatever % by shields or armor. The way it is now... Example: you throw a grenade at someone, as soon as their shields are depleted, armor actually somehow interacts with the explosive to give it a damage buff? Grenades are the best example, since the damage calculation greatly favors shield tankers. The damage types as a whole favor shields over armor. If you total and average the damage bonuses, shields average a 5% resistance to the various damage types, while armor averages a 10% penalty. OMG another person that knows shields take less damage than armor holy crap! Armor and Shields are not the same!
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 1824	Posted - 2014.01.26 03:11:00 - [67] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor? McDonell Miller Explains the Dust Challenge Lottery Protocol
Hecarim Van Hohen Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 376	Posted - 2014.01.26 03:12:00 - [68] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Would restoring the old movement penalty for armour plates make you stop using them? Yes, yes it would. My heavy is slow as it is now. Cheer up a bit will you (n+ëGùòpâ«Gùò)n+ë:n+Ñn+ƒG£º:n+Ñn+ƒG£º Personal best K/A/D in 1.7 26/5/1
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1710	Posted - 2014.01.26 03:19:00 - [69] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor? Shields self repair :\| do shields really need help in the repair department? That's seriously the best thing about them... Armor and Shields are not the same!
OverIord Ulath Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 40	Posted - 2014.01.26 03:57:00 - [70] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor? Shields self repair :\| do shields really need help in the repair department? That's seriously the best thing about them... Let's put it this way. If you are a super smart player, and you run with a super smart squad, which one is better? Armor suit: You set up repping hives and keep a logi or two on you at all times, you can hold any point in the game unless you are insta-gibbed by something. Neigh invulnerability. Shield suit: You.... play smart and try to keep people watching your back at all times.... and if you are stuck trying to hold a point..... hope your escape route is clear. Thus shield tanking < armor tanking.

Ghermard-ol Dizeriois Maphia Clan Corporation 116	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:29:00 - [71] - Quote What bothers me is Base Shield Extender = +22 HP Base Armored Plate = +85 HP difference: 63 HP Enhanced Shield Extender = +33 HP Enhanced Armored Plate = +110 HP difference: 77 HP Complex Shield Extender = +66HP Complex Armored Plate = +135 HP difference: 69 HP why? totally unbalanced IMO If you are an hacker, a cheater o a glitcher, you deserve death. In real life.
HYENAKILLER X AGGRESSIVE TYPE 506	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:36:00 - [72] - Quote So ccp gives us a break with with mobility and you want that removed? how do you even notice? You are welcome for my leadership *Proven Aggressive Type
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2105	Posted - 2014.01.26 15:58:00 - [73] - Quote HYENAKILLER X wrote: So ccp gives us a break with with mobility and you want that removed? how do you even notice? It was bad before, but with bullet magnetism it really doesn't matter how slow we are moving. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 989	Posted - 2014.01.26 16:16:00 - [74] - Quote Nah. Maybe I suck but Shield users have an advantage over me with speed despite my AR being effective against their shields. They can out run and out strafe me all while either spraying or keeping a distance while using a Rail Rifle. If you're going to do anything, buff the Shields(the Caldari are getting that buff tho if they use those stats for 1.8). I'm assuming the majority of you don't armor tank or haven't tried it at least once. Complaining about how "fast" we are in our bulkiest of fits is silly with weapons that work both against the armor's defense and speed. Seriously get Armor Plates to lvl 3 and try to get advanced Gallente/Amarr and then get a Proto version through FW and see just how different we are. Hell. I've actually tested it once against a Minmatar shield tank. I could spray and pray with the AR or try to use alpha damage but when we're in CQC they have a major advantage even with just a simple SMG... "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 989	Posted - 2014.01.26 16:22:00 - [75] - Quote OverIord Ulath wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor? Shields self repair :\| do shields really need help in the repair department? That's seriously the best thing about them... Let's put it this way. If you are a super smart player, and you run with a super smart squad, which one is better? Armor suit: You set up repping hives and keep a logi or two on you at all times, you can hold any point in the game unless you are insta-gibbed by something. Neigh invulnerability. Shield suit: You.... play smart and try to keep people watching your back at all times.... and if you are stuck trying to hold a point..... hope your escape route is clear. Thus shield tanking < armor tanking. Armor tanking is and always will be the best for DEFENSE. Why? Because it's slow as crap and is better for a sitting in a secured area. If armor tankers are making an offensive strike they're either light armor tanking or slowly pushing through. Shield tanking is for more about offense. Caldari can break you down from a distance while the Minmatar can do guerrilla tactics the best(if you include the slave driver's Uplink they're the damn best) with the highest mobility and damage. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1687	Posted - 2014.01.26 16:28:00 - [76] - Quote If they made the armor penalty as bad as it used to be, Complex Plates would never be seen on the battlefield, except for on sentinels. Complex plates are hardly worth running as is, any nerf to them would be bad IMO. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
OverIord Ulath Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 77	Posted - 2014.01.26 16:45:00 - [77] - Quote Roy Ventus wrote: OverIord Ulath wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths. They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor? Shields self repair :\| do shields really need help in the repair department? That's seriously the best thing about them... Let's put it this way. If you are a super smart player, and you run with a super smart squad, which one is better? Armor suit: You set up repping hives and keep a logi or two on you at all times, you can hold any point in the game unless you are insta-gibbed by something. Neigh invulnerability. Shield suit: You.... play smart and try to keep people watching your back at all times.... and if you are stuck trying to hold a point..... hope your escape route is clear. Thus shield tanking < armor tanking. Armor tanking is and always will be the best for DEFENSE. Why? Because it's slow as crap and is better for a sitting in a secured area. If armor tankers are making an offensive strike they're either light armor tanking or slowly pushing through. Shield tanking is for more about offense. Caldari can break you down from a distance while the Minmatar can do guerrilla tactics the best(if you include the slave driver's Uplink they're the damn best) with the highest mobility and damage. If this is true, then they should become slow as crap instead of running only slightly slower than a Caldari medium. You can't expect to be mobile AND tanky, right? If you don't want to increase the speed penalty, then give it a stamina penalty too. Makes sense and it will slow you down without slowing you down.
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 989	Posted - 2014.01.26 20:54:00 - [78] - Quote @Overlord They're slow as crap compared to the Caldari. I made that clear and emphasized it because it's the truth. Don't get me started on the Minmatar. We aren't that mobile :I. Stamina can be a b-i-t-c-h especially since you have no room for stamina mods when you're stacking armor plates and an enhanced/complex rep. You can only run so fast and LOL at jumping. Escape is damn near impossible unless you're going up against others who are as armor tanked as you. With the Rail Rifle being good at distances, you could easily decapitate a slow running Gallente running across the field with 500-800 armor. In CQC, a Combat rifle can and will eat you alive in the hands of a competent player. We don't need a bigger speed penalty or stamina penalty, point blank period. You seriously must have never armor tanked to say this. I've done both sides once and I still play around with shield-tanking every so often. I test my suits out in 1v1 and take mental notes in actual battles...If we gain a even bigger speed or stamina penalty we would be UP. Minmatar can out DPS us at a greater speed come 1.8 and currently they can still out run us. Caldari can out run us as well as out-range us. :< It's annoying to hear this because it's like you guys want us to be UP but I'm sure that's not really the case. I really want you to try out armor tanking with a Gallente or Amarr suit before you commit to this idea about slowing us down even further... "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus


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