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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2086
   |
Posted - 2014.01.25 17:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed.
It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates.
So we currently have:
Basic -2
Enhanced -3
Complex -5
And the old penalty was:
Basic -3
Enhanced -5
Complex -10
It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic.
Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
5482
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Posted - 2014.01.25 17:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Personaly, I think they're fine. The problem lies with there being no useful alternative, which can only be remedied with more content. We all know how that's going to go down though.
Never forget
May 14, 2013: Beta 2.0
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Green Living
0uter.Heaven
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1173
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Posted - 2014.01.25 17:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah, I would stop using them if they were returned to old speed decreases. While I love the extra HP, I still prefer to be speedy. |
N1ck Comeau
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
1904
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Posted - 2014.01.25 17:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Armour tankers are stand and deliver kind of guys, thats why they have so much more HP then shield users, who can run fast, and regen quickly, but cant tank much damage.
Make the plates have higher movement speed penalty.
Minmatar Assault.
Hopeful Caldari Scout soon. praying for that respec.
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1010
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Posted - 2014.01.25 17:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths.
They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent.
To apply to L.O.T.I.S. or to squad with us, join our public chat channel: L.O.T.I.S.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2086
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 18:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths.
They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent.
No argument here. I'd still use them, but I'd stop using them shield based suits. Probably switch out to regulators or profile damps/range amps. Or maybe even use kincats+cardio mods.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals
Seituoda Taskforce Command
979
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
I hope not.
If they brought the speed penalty back and everyone does, well, i'd be out of a job.
Lore-wise: Calamari are my preferred. Amarricans are my despised.
Importantly: Frogs n' Brutes have all my stuff...
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
456
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea.
Henchmen21: Infantry
Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2086
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 18:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea.
It would stop the 1.8 Gallente/Amarr scouts from being OP and using 4 plates in the lows(well not stop, but make it less appealing)
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2086
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 18:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Let's gets armour plates on page.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Dericha
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
16
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
I think it's part of the CCP grand plan to make Logis a logistic role and still relevant more so than to add to the assault gun game. If we go back to shield tanking, everyone will stop using rep tools again.
I have always armor tanked and before the speed buff, it was extremely difficult in a PC to drop an uplink in a non-terribad location and keep up with the heavies pushing an objective. But not wearing the plates meant dying a lot more and not being able to do my job. With that, I am anti- speed penalty increases.
Also, with what we know of 1.8, EHP is going to matter. A good defense and counter will be more than the number of plates you have and preliminary calculations show the Amarr Sentinel having a better overall EHP than the Gallente against most weapon types.
All this said, this patch does seem to be heading towards working on the logi/heavy roles. |
Waiyu Ren
Immortal Guides
16
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
I use 2 basics on my Gal-logi, because it has no other slots to use. I can't increase my shield, and i have to increase something.... That extra 0.25-0.5 second buffer between "running" around and doing stuff, and lying down to quietly bleed. 
(Why does the basic Gal-logi suck so hard? all its friends get a 3rd or 4th slot...... Why only 2 for me? I already suck, i need that extra slot!)
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Ghermard-ol Dizeriois
Maphia Clan Corporation
115
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
110 +10% = 121
135 + 10% = 148
which means 27 more HP
Are they really worth an addictional 2% penalty in speed?
If you are an hacker, a cheater o a glitcher, you deserve death. In real life.
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Teilka Darkmist
69
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Posted - 2014.01.25 18:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Armour plates don't have a speed penalty? You're adding plates to your dropsuit which means adding weight. A speed penalty should be a no brainer. The addition in weight is the whole reason a heavy suit is slower than a medium or light one.
When I play as a sniper, I'm more likely to be nearer to the opponents redline than my own.
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Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
2979
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Posted - 2014.01.25 19:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
We went through this before. Months and months of armour users pointing out that the stuff just couldn't compete with shields. The newer penalties are far more noticeable than you may think, and some space still has to be saved for reps in many cases.
No.
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
920
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Posted - 2014.01.25 19:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
speed tanking is dead. the movement penalty isn't that much of a deal anymore except for the armor stacking on scoutz and they are the least of anyones worries.
The Need for infantry speed used to be one of the most challenging and enjoyable factors of DUST 514. The varying speed and challenge on your aiming abilities to adjust. Struggling like a Tennis player who had the tennis ball slammed at their face to adjust and defend yourself as the speedy hostile put pressure on you.
I guess Easy mode Battleduty in Space has saved DUST from the successes it had not being that. |
sira draco
Ancient Erectiles
48
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Posted - 2014.01.25 19:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed.
It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates.
So we currently have:
Basic -2
Enhanced -3
Complex -5
And the old penalty was:
Basic -3
Enhanced -5
Complex -10
It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic.
Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless.
I agree, armor tankers can still move at a decent speed, they should lose more speed |
OverIord Ulath
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.01.25 21:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea.
No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
1706
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 21:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed.
It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates.
So we currently have:
Basic -2
Enhanced -3
Complex -5
And the old penalty was:
Basic -3
Enhanced -5
Complex -10
It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic.
Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless.
I would you have no idea how detrimental even a 10% speed penalty is.
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
336
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 21:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed.
It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates.
So we currently have:
Basic -2
Enhanced -3
Complex -5
And the old penalty was:
Basic -3
Enhanced -5
Complex -10
It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic.
Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless.
Should be 5% for all plates.
Giving interest to Complex Plates.
And Ferroscale.
The Hp value is already too high.
(Once the unbalanced weapons got nerfed.)
Plates should not be the "default" choice. I need drawbacks.
Speed players should not be able to fit plates (even basic) without real penality (2% come on...)
Reactives should cost same PG/CPU than regular plates since they have 1/2 of hp value for 1/2hp/s. |
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5974
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Posted - 2014.01.25 22:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
I would never use a complex plate ever again if the penalty came back to 10.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
1707
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 22:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
OverIord Ulath wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers.
What are the drawbacks to shields?
Shield pros:
Self repairing
More resistant to damage
No speed loss
An insignificant penalty
Is not your life line
Shield cons:
shield delay
A maximum of 35% HP difference between shield and armor
Flux grenades (rarely used)
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5974
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 22:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
OverIord Ulath wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. No less so than shield extenders. It would mean you actually have serious drawbacks to armor like you already do with shields. But of course NOBODY wants armor to be balanced with shields.... well..... at least not the armor tankers.
You can compensate for your penalty using low slots.
We can't compensate for our penalty using high slots.
Also, speed > Recharge delay.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
1707
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 22:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I would never use a complex plate ever again if the penalty came back to 10.
How do you armor tank?
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5974
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Posted - 2014.01.25 22:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I would never use a complex plate ever again if the penalty came back to 10. How do you armor tank?
I use a complex plate, an enhanced plate, a complex repairer and a dampener.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5974
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Posted - 2014.01.25 22:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:As it is, armour plates provide too much for a small sacrifice. For just 10 CPU and 1 PG, you get a extra 80 hp and only lose 2 percent to movement speed.
It's gotten to the point that almost every suit would be better off using 1-2 basic/enhanced armour plates.
So we currently have:
Basic -2
Enhanced -3
Complex -5
And the old penalty was:
Basic -3
Enhanced -5
Complex -10
It would probably kill off complex plates(unless the hp was buffed even more) as well as enhanced, but I can still see people using one basic.
Personally, I'd like it to be bumped up to 3/4/5. I can't see complex plates going any higher, even at 6 percent they would become useless. Should be 5% for all plates. Giving interest to Complex Plates. And Ferroscale. The Hp value is already too high. (Once the unbalanced weapons got nerfed.) Plates should not be the "default" choice. I need drawbacks. Speed players should not be able to fit plates (even basic) without real penality (2% come on...) Reactives should cost same PG/CPU than regular plates since they have 1/2 of hp value for 1/2hp/s.
Ferroscale plates really need a CPU/PG reduction.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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OverIord Ulath
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.01.25 22:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them.
Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge. |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5977
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Posted - 2014.01.25 22:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
OverIord Ulath wrote:The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them.
Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge.
The HP increase was 20 per plate.
It's not really a groundbreaking buff.
Also, if CCP returns plates to the old values, I would never, EVER use complex plates, because the HP gain is miniscule as is.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
League of Infamy
1707
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Posted - 2014.01.25 22:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
OverIord Ulath wrote:The reason armor tanking became way better than shield tanking is because they both buffed the armor-per-plate and gave a reduction to the speed penalty. On top of that, there were very few options for anti-armor weapons. One was a sidearm, one was a heavy-only weapon, and one was a situational support weapon. Now that two mainline anti-armor guns are around (RR and CR) armor tanking is closer to being balanced with shields, but it's still not quite there yet. Perhaps we shouldn't return it to it's old values (3,5,10), but we should increase the penalty to the point that shield suits are adverse to running them but the armor suits still benefit from them. I suppose that means putting them at around 2,4 and 8. The basic plate is in a great spot since new players get it first and need as much of a bang for their figurative buck as they can get. 4 is more than the enhanced penalty currently is, but still isn't as bad as it used to be. 8 Seems fair for the complex, however I think that the complex needs another 10~20 HP on it so that it's worth using. The point isn't to gimp the plates after all, it's to balance them.
Just to be clear, we need a jewelers mallet here CCP, not a sledge.
What if we increased the penalty of armor yatti yatti but we also gave shield extenders an equally detrimental penalty such as a speed loss. For the record you may say speed tanking is dead but if you can't out strafe aim aassist which isn't even as magnetic as it used to be then you got problems. Anyways what if we made shields increase your delay so much that it wasn't as self repairing as it used to. But to balance it we made a repair tool for it, because you know people are oh so eager to help. That seems fair don't you think?
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1048
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Posted - 2014.01.25 22:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ghermard-ol Dizeriois wrote:110 +10% = 121
135 + 10% = 148
which means 27 more HP
Are they really worth an addictional 2% penalty in speed?
This^^^
85 = 3% speed penalty
110 - 85 = 25 =/= +2% speed penalty = 141.66 =/= 110
135 - 85 = 50 =/= +7% speed penalty = 283.33 =/= 135
{:)}{3GÇó>
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