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Pete B
Blood Unit 13 Zero-Day
87
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 02:24:00 -
[61] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:So then all armor tanking options would either be useless or extremely prohibitive that sounds like a great idea. It seems like a great way to bring them in line with Shield Extenders...
Shield extenders should be buffed, armour shouldn't be nerfed. I feel that armour is the 'stick to a spot, be useful and be durable' type of HP, where shields is 'hit and run' style HP. Right now shields do its job, maybe basic and enhanced are a bit low, but they do their job mostly. Armour though is taken down just as fast as shields meaning that don't do their job of being more durable than shields which is the only upside to them.
Right now I would be all for making armour more durable AND have a higher speed penalty, but as they are now, its at a good medium. |
Lazy Scumbag
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
107
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Posted - 2014.01.26 02:27:00 -
[62] - Quote
There is nothing OP about armor. It got buffed the same day the AA and hit detection went off the charts. For people who have armor tanked all along, we still die much faster than before the 'fix'.
The need for more hp is across the board, as demonstrated by the migration to armor. Nobody wants to see a fit they built insta-popped. It doesn't exactly highlight the feature of creating your own loadouts. Honestly, Rail rifles and even ARs are far too effective at long range.
I'm getting killed by people more or less in front of me before I can even locate the tiny dot shooting at me. Everyone hates snipers, but the new weapons have turned many players into small scale snipers. Because these weapons don't just chip away at a target's health, they kill them... very quickly, regardless of how much armor they are stacking.
Never thought I'd see a thread whining about the effectiveness of armor. |
ANON Cerberus
Tiny Toons
163
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Posted - 2014.01.26 02:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
Peoples arguments in this thread are for the most part unfounded. Since the changes came and speed lost its ability to mitigate damage, (I am looking at the aim assist amongst other things) right now its virtually all about fighting toe to toe and who ever has the highest amount of HP and most damage mods generally wins.
Just look at the way everyone is fitting stuff right now. The fact that so many people are now fitting up heavy suits with light weapons, damage mods and using the heavy tank - with little regard for speed - tells you all you need to know.
The thing is CCP has the metrics for all of this stuff so it should be them that are trying to balance tanking types. They managed to do it pretty well in EVE and in EVE you have both Armour remote repairing and shield remote repairing. (Shield AND Armour repair tools basically).
It will be hard to keep both the tanking types vastly different and to keep them both balanced. There may have to be some overlap or some similarities between the two types. I would rather that and have a somewhat balanced situation than the obviously imbalanced situation we have now where slapping on plates is the general way forward. |
Pete B
Blood Unit 13 Zero-Day
87
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Posted - 2014.01.26 02:40:00 -
[64] - Quote
Lazy Scumbag wrote:There is nothing OP about armor. It got buffed the same day the AA and hit detection went off the charts. For people who have armor tanked all along, we still die much faster than before the 'fix'. The need for more hp is across the board, as demonstrated by the migration to armor. Nobody wants to see a fit they built insta-popped. It doesn't exactly highlight the feature of creating your own loadouts. Honestly, Rail rifles and even ARs are far too effective at long range. I'm getting killed by people more or less in front of me before I can even locate the tiny dot shooting at me. Everyone hates snipers, but the new weapons have turned many players into small scale snipers. Because these weapons don't just chip away at a target's health, they kill them... very quickly, regardless of how much armor they are stacking. Never thought I'd see a thread whining about the effectiveness of armor.
I could not agree more. My issue is also with the fact that the difference between effectiveness on different types of HP as well. 110 on shields and 90 on armour is an assault rifle, and what, 90 on shields and 110 on armour with a RR? They are basically the same, and gives no real pros or cons to using one HP or weapon over the other when it comes to different effectiveness.
In this case its all about which does gives higher HP or does more damage rather than which one is effective at what. In this case, you might as well stick with armour if you want higher HP, but even then CCP somehow makes 80Armour the same as 33shields, which makes it more of 'how fast do you want to move' more than 'what is your playstyle'. |
Lazy Scumbag
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2014.01.26 02:53:00 -
[65] - Quote
Pete B wrote:Lazy Scumbag wrote:There is nothing OP about armor. It got buffed the same day the AA and hit detection went off the charts. For people who have armor tanked all along, we still die much faster than before the 'fix'. The need for more hp is across the board, as demonstrated by the migration to armor. Nobody wants to see a fit they built insta-popped. It doesn't exactly highlight the feature of creating your own loadouts. Honestly, Rail rifles and even ARs are far too effective at long range. I'm getting killed by people more or less in front of me before I can even locate the tiny dot shooting at me. Everyone hates snipers, but the new weapons have turned many players into small scale snipers. Because these weapons don't just chip away at a target's health, they kill them... very quickly, regardless of how much armor they are stacking. Never thought I'd see a thread whining about the effectiveness of armor. I could not agree more. My issue is also with the fact that the difference between effectiveness on different types of HP as well. 110 on shields and 90 on armour is an assault rifle, and what, 90 on shields and 110 on armour with a RR? They are basically the same, and gives no real pros or cons to using one HP or weapon over the other when it comes to different effectiveness. In this case its all about which does gives higher HP or does more damage rather than which one is effective at what. In this case, you might as well stick with armour if you want higher HP, but even then CCP somehow makes 80Armour the same as 33shields, which makes it more of 'how fast do you want to move' more than 'what is your playstyle'.
Right. Also the positive/ negative bonuses to damage types seems like a bad idea. I really feel that weapons should do flat base damage, which should be mitigated whatever % by shields or armor. The way it is now... Example: you throw a grenade at someone, as soon as their shields are depleted, armor actually somehow interacts with the explosive to give it a damage buff? Grenades are the best example, since the damage calculation greatly favors shield tankers.
The damage types as a whole favor shields over armor. If you total and average the damage bonuses, shields average a 5% resistance to the various damage types, while armor averages a 10% penalty. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1710
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 03:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
Lazy Scumbag wrote:Pete B wrote:Lazy Scumbag wrote:There is nothing OP about armor. It got buffed the same day the AA and hit detection went off the charts. For people who have armor tanked all along, we still die much faster than before the 'fix'. The need for more hp is across the board, as demonstrated by the migration to armor. Nobody wants to see a fit they built insta-popped. It doesn't exactly highlight the feature of creating your own loadouts. Honestly, Rail rifles and even ARs are far too effective at long range. I'm getting killed by people more or less in front of me before I can even locate the tiny dot shooting at me. Everyone hates snipers, but the new weapons have turned many players into small scale snipers. Because these weapons don't just chip away at a target's health, they kill them... very quickly, regardless of how much armor they are stacking. Never thought I'd see a thread whining about the effectiveness of armor. I could not agree more. My issue is also with the fact that the difference between effectiveness on different types of HP as well. 110 on shields and 90 on armour is an assault rifle, and what, 90 on shields and 110 on armour with a RR? They are basically the same, and gives no real pros or cons to using one HP or weapon over the other when it comes to different effectiveness. In this case its all about which does gives higher HP or does more damage rather than which one is effective at what. In this case, you might as well stick with armour if you want higher HP, but even then CCP somehow makes 80Armour the same as 33shields, which makes it more of 'how fast do you want to move' more than 'what is your playstyle'. Right. Also the positive/ negative bonuses to damage types seems like a bad idea. I really feel that weapons should do flat base damage, which should be mitigated whatever % by shields or armor. The way it is now... Example: you throw a grenade at someone, as soon as their shields are depleted, armor actually somehow interacts with the explosive to give it a damage buff? Grenades are the best example, since the damage calculation greatly favors shield tankers. The damage types as a whole favor shields over armor. If you total and average the damage bonuses, shields average a 5% resistance to the various damage types, while armor averages a 10% penalty.
OMG another person that knows shields take less damage than armor holy crap!
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
1824
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:11:00 -
[67] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths.
They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor?
McDonell Miller Explains the Dust Challenge Lottery Protocol
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Hecarim Van Hohen
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
376
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:12:00 -
[68] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Would restoring the old movement penalty for armour plates make you stop using them? Yes, yes it would.
My heavy is slow as it is now.
Cheer up a bit will you
(n+ëGùòpâ«Gùò)n+ë:n+Ñn+ƒG£º:n+Ñn+ƒG£º
Personal best K/A/D in 1.7 26/5/1
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1710
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:19:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths.
They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor?
Shields self repair :| do shields really need help in the repair department? That's seriously the best thing about them...
Armor and Shields are not the same!
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OverIord Ulath
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2014.01.26 03:57:00 -
[70] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths.
They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor? Shields self repair :| do shields really need help in the repair department? That's seriously the best thing about them... Let's put it this way. If you are a super smart player, and you run with a super smart squad, which one is better?
Armor suit:
You set up repping hives and keep a logi or two on you at all times, you can hold any point in the game unless you are insta-gibbed by something. Neigh invulnerability.
Shield suit:
You.... play smart and try to keep people watching your back at all times.... and if you are stuck trying to hold a point..... hope your escape route is clear.
Thus shield tanking < armor tanking. |
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Ghermard-ol Dizeriois
Maphia Clan Corporation
116
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Posted - 2014.01.26 11:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
What bothers me is
Base Shield Extender = +22 HP Base Armored Plate = +85 HP difference: 63 HP
Enhanced Shield Extender = +33 HP Enhanced Armored Plate = +110 HP difference: 77 HP
Complex Shield Extender = +66HP Complex Armored Plate = +135 HP difference: 69 HP
why? totally unbalanced IMO
If you are an hacker, a cheater o a glitcher, you deserve death. In real life.
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HYENAKILLER X
AGGRESSIVE TYPE
506
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Posted - 2014.01.26 11:36:00 -
[72] - Quote
So ccp gives us a break with with mobility and you want that removed?
how do you even notice?
You are welcome for my leadership
*Proven Aggressive Type
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2105
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Posted - 2014.01.26 15:58:00 -
[73] - Quote
HYENAKILLER X wrote:So ccp gives us a break with with mobility and you want that removed?
how do you even notice? It was bad before, but with bullet magnetism it really doesn't matter how slow we are moving.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
989
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Posted - 2014.01.26 16:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
Nah. Maybe I suck but Shield users have an advantage over me with speed despite my AR being effective against their shields. They can out run and out strafe me all while either spraying or keeping a distance while using a Rail Rifle.
If you're going to do anything, buff the Shields(the Caldari are getting that buff tho if they use those stats for 1.8). I'm assuming the majority of you don't armor tank or haven't tried it at least once. Complaining about how "fast" we are in our bulkiest of fits is silly with weapons that work both against the armor's defense and speed. Seriously get Armor Plates to lvl 3 and try to get advanced Gallente/Amarr and then get a Proto version through FW and see just how different we are.
Hell. I've actually tested it once against a Minmatar shield tank. I could spray and pray with the AR or try to use alpha damage but when we're in CQC they have a major advantage even with just a simple SMG...
"There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all."
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Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
989
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Posted - 2014.01.26 16:22:00 -
[75] - Quote
OverIord Ulath wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths.
They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor? Shields self repair :| do shields really need help in the repair department? That's seriously the best thing about them... Let's put it this way. If you are a super smart player, and you run with a super smart squad, which one is better? Armor suit: You set up repping hives and keep a logi or two on you at all times, you can hold any point in the game unless you are insta-gibbed by something. Neigh invulnerability. Shield suit: You.... play smart and try to keep people watching your back at all times.... and if you are stuck trying to hold a point..... hope your escape route is clear. Thus shield tanking < armor tanking.
Armor tanking is and always will be the best for DEFENSE. Why? Because it's slow as crap and is better for a sitting in a secured area. If armor tankers are making an offensive strike they're either light armor tanking or slowly pushing through. Shield tanking is for more about offense. Caldari can break you down from a distance while the Minmatar can do guerrilla tactics the best(if you include the slave driver's Uplink they're the damn best) with the highest mobility and damage.
"There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all."
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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1687
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 16:28:00 -
[76] - Quote
If they made the armor penalty as bad as it used to be, Complex Plates would never be seen on the battlefield, except for on sentinels. Complex plates are hardly worth running as is, any nerf to them would be bad IMO.
Yours Truly,
Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
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OverIord Ulath
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
77
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Posted - 2014.01.26 16:45:00 -
[77] - Quote
Roy Ventus wrote:OverIord Ulath wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:As long as repping hives exist in this game, people will armor tank and camp on them. As long as repair tools exist in this game, people will armor tank with a logi or two behind them. Changing the speed penalties will not change these truths.
They should return to the old speed penalty. The regular plates are made for straight armor tanking ability, not for speed. If you want armor without speed penalties, that's what ferroscale plates are for. And even though you don't get as much health with a ferroscale plate, you still get more than the proto shield equivalent. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but why not make triage hives repair shields instead of armor? Shields self repair :| do shields really need help in the repair department? That's seriously the best thing about them... Let's put it this way. If you are a super smart player, and you run with a super smart squad, which one is better? Armor suit: You set up repping hives and keep a logi or two on you at all times, you can hold any point in the game unless you are insta-gibbed by something. Neigh invulnerability. Shield suit: You.... play smart and try to keep people watching your back at all times.... and if you are stuck trying to hold a point..... hope your escape route is clear. Thus shield tanking < armor tanking. Armor tanking is and always will be the best for DEFENSE. Why? Because it's slow as crap and is better for a sitting in a secured area. If armor tankers are making an offensive strike they're either light armor tanking or slowly pushing through. Shield tanking is for more about offense. Caldari can break you down from a distance while the Minmatar can do guerrilla tactics the best(if you include the slave driver's Uplink they're the damn best) with the highest mobility and damage. If this is true, then they should become slow as crap instead of running only slightly slower than a Caldari medium. You can't expect to be mobile AND tanky, right? If you don't want to increase the speed penalty, then give it a stamina penalty too. Makes sense and it will slow you down without slowing you down. |
Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
989
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Posted - 2014.01.26 20:54:00 -
[78] - Quote
@Overlord
They're slow as crap compared to the Caldari. I made that clear and emphasized it because it's the truth. Don't get me started on the Minmatar. We aren't that mobile :I. Stamina can be a b-i-t-c-h especially since you have no room for stamina mods when you're stacking armor plates and an enhanced/complex rep. You can only run so fast and LOL at jumping. Escape is damn near impossible unless you're going up against others who are as armor tanked as you. With the Rail Rifle being good at distances, you could easily decapitate a slow running Gallente running across the field with 500-800 armor. In CQC, a Combat rifle can and will eat you alive in the hands of a competent player.
We don't need a bigger speed penalty or stamina penalty, point blank period. You seriously must have never armor tanked to say this. I've done both sides once and I still play around with shield-tanking every so often. I test my suits out in 1v1 and take mental notes in actual battles...If we gain a even bigger speed or stamina penalty we would be UP.
Minmatar can out DPS us at a greater speed come 1.8 and currently they can still out run us. Caldari can out run us as well as out-range us.
:< It's annoying to hear this because it's like you guys want us to be UP but I'm sure that's not really the case. I really want you to try out armor tanking with a Gallente or Amarr suit before you commit to this idea about slowing us down even further...
"There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all."
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