The bolded portion shows your complete misunderstanding of pre-1.7 AV-Dropship balance: a single Swarm Launcher in 1.6 meant that every Python was shot down and every Incubus was either driven off for the majority of the battle...or shot down.

Now ADS's are a very potent threat, but there exist dangers to them: they are certainly not easy to pilot, their controls required climatisation and practice and utilising their firepower requires further honing of skill; whilst Hardeners have given them a great lease of life, they are far from indestructible, a Forge Gun will do serious damage to an ADS and will at least force the pilot to attempt to remove the threat (not an easy task, as they need to acquire the target under buffeting fire and survive incoming fire while having enough time left to combat the threat) or disengage (which, whilst not yet rewarded, is just as valuable to your team as killing it), Swarm Launchers are incredibly powerful AV support weapons (they will do little to nothing to a Hardened vehicle but they still do substantial damage to an unhardened one: coordinated fire of a Forger and 1-2 Swarm Launchers is an extremely potent weapon against all forms of vehicle, but Dropships especially); Blaster and Missile turrets are both great threats to an ADS (a Blaster catching a low dropship will rip it apart in seconds unless the pilot has fast reflexes and decent skill enough to know how to manoeuvre post-engagement; a Missile turret can alpha a dropship quite reasonably [I've done it enough myself] it's just not as effective as a Railgun).

The real crux of the debate is the Large Railgun turret. Almost every ADS pilot you will meet will say that the LRT is stupidly powerful: the reason for this is the range, hitting power and speed: it hits you from close to (if not out of) maximum rendering distance; it hits you with enough power to two-shot you out of the sky; and it fires the second shot so rapidly after the first lands that you have less than a second and a half to react - let me tell you something: a second and a half is nothing when you have to decide: what modules do I have to activate? In what order? What's the best way to regain control of my ship now that it's lurching wildly from the hit? Where do I move to? Up? Down? Where was the shot from, so I can evade it's line of fire?

And at the end of the day, the LRT is probably fine. It is the safety of the redline that boils the blood of so many pilots. A railgun can, with impunity, swat Dropships from the sky all day long and have no predators to worry about except for other railguns. Without the threat of retaliation, it makes it trivial to destroy Dropships and that's where the imbalance lies.

Without the threat of retaliation, without the potential for repercussions, a redline railgun has no reason to venture forward (since it has no predators and can reach out to the engagement area anyway), has no reason to fit survivability modules (since the only threat is another railgun) and has no reason to care.

TL;DR:
The redline facilitates the power of the railgun, which takes it from 'extremely deadly but counterable' to 'extremely deadly with no counter but itself.'

Exactly.
The problem is the Redline.
Not the rail turrets themselves.

Rail turrets are still broken, just even more so in the redline. Damage mod nerf and slight rail turret nerf is in order.

i'm a dropship pilot...... and i risk a huge amount of isk each time out for what could be a very quick encounter (damn you MCC!!)....

I'm not annoyed about this,,,, its what this games like,, part of the risk and fun of being a pilot...... however it is frustrating, unfair even, to be repeatedly taken out by people who haven't even taken the slightest chance by leaving the safezone so no effective counter is feasible (apart from jihads perhaps but in the long-term i doubt these will be a feature much more)

keep the rails as strong as they are,,, people are right-- ADS's unchecked would have a major impact on infantry battles (far moreso than the lumbersome cross-map tank battles that happen currently)....

Just INCREASE the cost of tanks slightly (maybe x1.5),, ensure the damage mods are stacking correctly,,, and find a mechanic that prevents them sitting in a safezone hill all match killing all the turrets and vehicles that dare step into the actual playable part of the map

it takes 2-3 clips of proto swarms to take down a DS. Which means 2-3 people running swarms can coordinate to to fire 1 volley each together and take down a derpship..... instant death

It takes 2 Breach forge shots to take down derpship... you need atleast 2 people with a breach and coordinate a shot at the same time.... instant death if both shots hit

Takes two damage modded rail shots to kill a derpship, with two tanks coordinating at the same time they can kill a derpship easily.... instant death if both shots hit

Is it possible to solo a derpship? Yes, two breach shots tactically shot will kill a derpship by ONE forger.... A lot harder than using two people forging...

two damage modded rail shots can kill a derpship.... 1 tank with 2 strategic shots can kill a derpship...

The most difficult one.... 2 clips of swarms can kill a derpship (6 volleys assuming a clip holds 3)... you cant just shot whenever... you need to wait until a derpship ends up in a vulnerable spot and then unload on it...

Patience is the key. Same applies to tanks. People that seen me fly see me hovering over an enemy tank without shooting at it... I wait until I have it in a place where I know I'll have the advantage.... I wait until the tank moves a bit away from the redline... I wait until the tank places himself in a tight spot so when I start shooting he'll just start driving into walls and boxes... I am a bird of prey... and like most predators, I know that patience is the required to achieve victory.

I dont believe tanks are op... I believe the rail turret is... I know how to kill a tank with its hardeners on... and believe me its not easy. But it isnt impossible. Same applies to derpships. But if you are not willing to take the time and own your skills and learn the weaknesses of a derpship... you will fail... I am not an AV... But I took the time to learn where the strengths in swarsm, rails, and forges are... And made sure I never put myself in such a spot where they have the advantage.... but sometimes they give me no choice.

Removing the red like or adjusting it in some way - this would solve many problems in my honest opinion.

Removing the redline would cause way more problems than it solves.

Besides, the redline itself is only a slight problem. Almost nothing would be fixed because:

• Railguns can also be used as Shotguns. Enemy HAVs will still be eaten for breakfast.
• AV is pretty much a non-factor. They wouldn't be able to stop me.
• I can still aim high enough to vaporize dropships, even without the redline.
• Dropships have far too little cover. No redline will affect this.
• No Hardener can save you when my Railgun can alpha you into non-existence.

Also, I find it highly ironic how everyone's so quick to call for AV nerfs when they deal 2k HP damage per shot, yet people scratch their heads and wonder if it's necessary to call for nerfs when Railgun turrets deal 2k HP of damage per shot.

the redline is the problem not the railguns.

i realise your going for shock value to draw attention but insisting the its the rails and not the redline is doing nothing but hurting the cause

That, and stacking damage mods. You should only be allowed to have one active at any time, or if you want to be even more extreme, only one fit at a time, like nitrous.

Rail tanks have made dropships almost unusable and ruined strategic play for real tankers and LAV specialists. While we understand that fixing things takes time, and that resources are limited there are some issues that are a problem and some that are so bad that the game is broken. Rail tanks fall into the latter. They ruin every single match. So this is a simple request. Here it is below :

CCP please acknowledge that rails need work. Tell us in this thread that you have heard our complaints. No need to say what you will do or when you will do it, Just let us know you hear our voices.

While Rail tanks are a problem to both DS and HAVs the problem is there isn't any really good ground to air options if removed. Swarm Launchers I see try an fail and I have had ADS shrug off an entire forge gun clip and still be ballsy enough to fly low enough to va grenade him to death.

Both Blasters and missiles are not that efficient in dropship killing due to the small envelopes and horrible damage compression.

Railguns are bad because they excel in damage compression.

There is no high angle option between the railgun and blaster and there should be.

Either bring railgun damage lower OR introduce fall off (but this would change railguns to hit scan so that's a scary thing to even to consider) AND THEN Increase the fitting difficulty of the railgun currently its the easiest turret to install.

If rails cannot be touched then buff dropship HP and increase swarm damage and speed.

While Rail tanks are a problem to both DS and HAVs the problem is there isn't any really good ground to air options if removed. Swarm Launchers I see try an fail and I have had ADS shrug off an entire forge gun clip and still be ballsy enough to fly low enough to va grenade him to death.

Both Blasters and missiles are not that efficient in dropship killing due to the small envelopes and horrible damage compression.

Railguns are bad because they excel in damage compression.

There is no high angle option between the railgun and blaster and there should be.

Either bring railgun damage lower OR introduce fall off (but this would change railguns to hit scan so that's a scary thing to even to consider) AND THEN Increase the fitting difficulty of the railgun currently its the easiest turret to install.

If rails cannot be touched then buff dropship HP and increase swarm damage and speed.

hmmm another I want the game dust 514 to be the game I want and to hell with everyone else.


you simply want to be able to fly around in a ADS with impunity and get a nice inflated KDR from that.

sorry this is eve and well you adapt or you die.

and you think rails are bad just wait for large beam cannons and large artillery.

most of the forum posts I see are... I don't like "whatever the issue" fix it NOW!!. I WANT this buffed or I WANT this nerfed.
well no, this game is open to what 45000 toons and not just you or just me.

there is a tonne I want to see changed, but with sensible compromises and trade offs and not just a list of demands to make dust 514 the game I want.

you have an issue with rail tanks fine make some suggestions.

people had issue with the swarmers and now it has a pitiful 150 meter range (450 feet).. man a modern day stinger missile made from 1969-1982 can hit a aircraft at approx.. 5000 meters (15000 feet). and that single missile can bring down most planes and helicopters with a single hit.

compromise and a open discussion of issues is needed.. not a list of I want this nows

Rail tanks have made dropships almost unusable and ruined strategic play for real tankers and LAV specialists. While we understand that fixing things takes time, and that resources are limited there are some issues that are a problem and some that are so bad that the game is broken. Rail tanks fall into the latter. They ruin every single match. So this is a simple request. Here it is below :

CCP please acknowledge that rails need work. Tell us in this thread that you have heard our complaints. No need to say what you will do or when you will do it, Just let us know you hear our voices.

I can totally understand certain frustrations. Just for clarification - where would the enemy tank be in that scenario? At the red line or bang in the middle of the blue dot?

Also for arguments sake, say the railgun was changed in some fashion - what then would be the way to destroy dropships. I am not talking about the militia fit basic ones, I mean those of you like yourself and foxhound as well as others that are either really damaging with there ADS or tank the hell out of there ships?