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steadyhand amarr TeamPlayers EoN. 1711	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:12:00 - [1] - Quote now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger "my faith is my shield, the empress's light my guide and my fury my sword" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1807	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:20:00 - [2] - Quote Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 249	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:26:00 - [3] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. Many of this game's unique and defining concepts rely on having a long (2+ second) TTK. Tactics take a back seat when getting the DPS on your opponent 0.5 second earlier will allow you to cut them down before they can react. Similarly, things like speed tanking and profile dampening are rendered less useful, because the time from being seen to dying has dropped sharply, to <1 second for many suits and <2 seconds for heavies. All that matters now is having more tank and more DPS than your opponent, and twitchier aim. This is what many shooters are, but it's not what I want Dust to be. edit: Also, TTK is not even mildly abstract- it's quite concrete. EHP divided by DPS = TTK. Changing it is similarly easy: increase EHP, decrease damage, or do both.
steadyhand amarr TeamPlayers EoN. 1713	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:33:00 - [4] - Quote yeh it has deffently changed my fits are built around how long i take to kill someone as i trade health vs damage. if im doing to quickly i up my health if i owning face with health to spare i up the damage to own face more :D at the moment im thinking of dual tanking "my faith is my shield, the empress's light my guide and my fury my sword" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Taeryn Frost Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 130	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:34:00 - [5] - Quote I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while.
Scheherazade VII 60	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:39:00 - [6] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger that's why the only option is to use a maaaaaassss driiiiver when will passive SP give me my ADV minmatar? i'm not liking these things I hear about DUST. the more it becomes a proper game, the more it becomes like other games. GêÜGëêDUST VIDEOSGëêGêÜ
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 251	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:41:00 - [7] - Quote Scheherazade VII wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger that's why the only option is to use a maaaaaassss driiiiver when will passive SP give me my ADV minmatar? i'm not liking these things I hear about DUST. the more it becomes a proper game, the more it becomes like other games. Patience, grasshopper. CCP hasn't made any balancing passes since they've gotten the mechanics solid (AKA today )
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 1226	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:48:00 - [8] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger This, we haven't spent all this time into specialisation for you to nerf the game into another twitch shooter CCP. Level 1 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. Fix PC lag please CCP.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 421	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:54:00 - [9] - Quote Hopefully CCP will look at ehp and damage from now on. However, until they fixed hit detection etc there was no point looking at these things. They needed a decent base line to work from and with many things no one really new whether the hit detection "fix" would actually work when it was released into the live game.
Terram Nenokal Eden Federal Resources 224	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:04:00 - [10] - Quote TTK is fine. You either need to stick closer to cover, or be more aware of your surroundings.

steadyhand amarr TeamPlayers EoN. 1715	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:19:00 - [11] - Quote Terram Nenokal wrote: TTK is fine. You either need to stick closer to cover, or be more aware of your surroundings. and what are you basing that on, after trying out a number of classes tonights, scouts cant scout beucase they get vaporized due to their low health, and heavies are too slow to cross open ground. so what cover are we meant to stick too when someone shoots round the conour and downs 3 people with a dovell before anyone can react. or am just going to have to execpt that dust is just another CoD clone and i have to open the pve in destiny is worth the hype "my faith is my shield, the empress's light my guide and my fury my sword" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Buddha Brown Factory Fresh 433	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:24:00 - [12] - Quote "TTK" search on forums 3 days ago: 0 hits "TTK" search today: Everybody QQ train is always rollin
Terram Nenokal Eden Federal Resources 224	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:34:00 - [13] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: scouts cant scout beucase they get vaporized due to their low health Scouts should be flanking. If you know where your enemy is, and still run out into their line of sight as a scout, you've done something wrong. steadyhand amarr wrote: and heavies are too slow to cross open ground. A heavy's role is primarily point defense. If you need to cross open ground, you need to clear out the threats before crossing. Crossing open ground with any suit is a risk. steadyhand amarr wrote: so what cover are we meant to stick too when someone shoots round the conour and downs 3 people with a dovell before anyone can react. Use a scanner and you would know that someone is about to round the corner. steadyhand amarr wrote: or am just going to have to execpt that dust is just another CoD clone and i have to open the pve in destiny is worth the hype
Earl Crushinator Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 176	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:39:00 - [14] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114940
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 243	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:41:00 - [15] - Quote Like I said in another thread: "TTK" is a slow, gentle way to tip-toe up to the elephants in the room: Auto Aim and AR damage. Start with talking about removing auto aim and you get no traction. Start with asking for an AR nerf, and it's the same. Start with "TTK", and you can actually start a conversation without a bunch of whiners being dragged tooth and nail towards to the prospect of un-bribing themselves.
Tek Hound Death In Xcess Corporation 121	Posted - 2013.11.05 22:05:00 - [16] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK of the Ar has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed by Proto Ars before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights with a variety of weapons where same thinking and tactics win instead of who has the faster trigger finger What he really meant
steadyhand amarr TeamPlayers EoN. 1719	Posted - 2013.11.05 22:39:00 - [17] - Quote acuttly i use the ISCR and its just gotten silly with that i should not even at proto level be able to clear a point guarded by 4 people in less than 15 rounds "my faith is my shield, the empress's light my guide and my fury my sword" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Lazy Scumbag The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 54	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:09:00 - [18] - Quote TTK is way down... I had a streak of 8 kills in about 2 minutes this morning with a medic starter fit because it was cutting scout and medium suits in half before they could react. What this means is that I'm not going to waste good fits when a heavily tanked medium suit lasts only a fraction of a second longer than a free starter fit. Save your ISK for weapons. Suits and modules are useless right now.
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles 3908	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:12:00 - [19] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger But nothing is wrong with the heavy HMG combo right?
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 905	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:22:00 - [20] - Quote The 10% dmg buff to all weapons started us on this road.. If Preparation is half of the battle and knowing is the other half, Then there is no need to fight.

Vesago Ghostcore Rejected Clones 56	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:31:00 - [21] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Like I said in another thread: "TTK" is a slow, gentle way to tip-toe up to the elephants in the room: Auto Aim and AR damage. Start with talking about removing auto aim and you get no traction. Start with asking for an AR nerf, and it's the same. Start with "TTK", and you can actually start a conversation without a bunch of whiners being dragged tooth and nail towards to the prospect of un-bribing themselves. I think the AR works the way its supposed to. I play with several different weapons and they all seem to work perfectly in the roles they are designed for. Under 60 meters watch out for the AR. Ive had HMG's kill me in a second at 30 meters, Ive been ripped apart by AR's at relatively close range. Scrambler Rifle wastes me in a second without warning. At 100 meters, a laser rifle with auto aim is death unless you have really close cover. Dont even et me started on Mass Drivers. Shot guns are difficult to use in my opinion, but if you can its a 1 on 1 win. I find that lately grenades are kicking my butt, but their not OP. not even nanohive spamming them. if you take a close look at the reasons you die fast i'll bet you find that its mostly your own fault. Or a clever opponents victory. If someone can kill you in a second, most likely you can do the same to them if you reverse the circumstances. TTK is not dependent on game mechanics, its dependent on tactics, skills, and opportunity. make the weapons kill slower, and the results will not change. The guy who got the drop on you still kills you. If a player kills you over and over, don't blame the weapon. Blame yourself.
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 915	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:37:00 - [22] - Quote I agree, TTK is very difficult to balance! It will differ on every weapon, I would expect TTK on a shotgun to be near minimal, while the MD should be longer by comparison! But basically when I begin playing in uprising 1.0 TTK was too long, you would empty entire mags of AR to take a guy down to half shields! It wasn't fun because it was boring! In 1.3 I believed it was near perfect, needed just a little faster, just a little, every 1v1 firefight was tense, just because you shot first didn't guarantee a win. But there was a problem, combat revolved around the texan 2 step, it was jaunty and immersion breaking! Then 1.4 hit, and like everyone I threw a wobbly on day 1, however in the end the TTK was closer to that golden value, closer than 1.3 albeit, being slightly to fast! But unlike .3 tactics reigned supreme, firefights became drawnout affairs as people realised how fragile they were! But from what I hear .6 has gone the wrong way. Compounded with the power of the RacialRifles, in comparison to the niche weapons(in their niches) is getting to much. And I think thats where the problem lies. Not the MD, SG, FG, HMG, or anything else, but the rifles. No more sharpshooter skill No more recoil reducing operation skill, make it ADS time or something And remove the damagd compensation. Would make the game so much better! The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 269	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:47:00 - [23] - Quote Taeryn Frost wrote: I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while. GTA has actual cover tactic's built around playing that way... DUST was never a game even remotely built this way... we have no prone positions.. we can't roll or dive... People need to wake up to what made DUST.... well... DUST... because right now there is 20 better options to play with the same game style... but the game was built to be played like that. This is why this game is dieing... it has NOTHING to do with the AR is to powerful ... derp no its the laser... derp its the tactical.. derrp its the mass driver... derrp its the grenade... Dumbass's want some game where your forced to take cover or die... even with high health point values.. legitimate walking breathing "tanks" and healers... And unlimited lifes as you wake up in another clone.... But NOOOOO we want to take cover with broken terrain and textures you get stuck on and glitched hitboxes that get you hit even when behind the cover...
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic Top Men. 237	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:52:00 - [24] - Quote Vesago Ghostcore wrote: I think the AR works the way its supposed to. I play with several different weapons and they all seem to work perfectly in the roles they are designed for. Under 60 meters watch out for the AR. Ive had HMG's kill me in a second at 30 meters, Ive been ripped apart by AR's at relatively close range. Scrambler Rifle wastes me in a second without warning. At 100 meters, a laser rifle with auto aim is death unless you have really close cover. Dont even et me started on Mass Drivers. Shot guns are difficult to use in my opinion, but if you can its a 1 on 1 win. I find that lately grenades are kicking my butt, but their not OP. not even nanohive spamming them. if you take a close look at the reasons you die fast i'll bet you find that its mostly your own fault. Or a clever opponents victory. If someone can kill you in a second, most likely you can do the same to them if you reverse the circumstances. TTK is not dependent on game mechanics, its dependent on tactics, skills, and opportunity. make the weapons kill slower, and the results will not change. The guy who got the drop on you still kills you. If a player kills you over and over, don't blame the weapon. Blame yourself. ARs have no negatives, that's their biggest issue. They seriously win in nearly all instances. With AA and a dispersion skill they are the best weapon in the game hands down (ScR could be argued but that whole class in general.) To the point that someone kills you in a second but you can do the same...definition of a twitch shooter. It never should only be about who saw whom first. Grenades are crazy, hard to say they are totally OP but man the Core Locust deals massive damage with a massive radius. Plus nanohive spam is a little ridiculous.
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 917	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:53:00 - [25] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Taeryn Frost wrote: I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while. GTA has actual cover tactic's built around playing that way... DUST was never a game even remotely built this way... we have no prone positions.. we can't roll or dive... People need to wake up to what made DUST.... well... DUST... because right now there is 20 better options to play with the same game style... but the game was built to be played like that. This is why this game is dieing... it has NOTHING to do with the AR is to powerful ... derp no its the laser... derp its the tactical.. derrp its the mass driver... derrp its the grenade... Dumbass's want some game where your forced to take cover or die... even with high health point values.. legitimate walking breathing "tanks" and healers... And unlimited lifes as you wake up in another clone.... But NOOOOO we want to take cover with broken terrain and textures you get stuck on and glitched hitboxes that get you hit even when behind the cover... So you wan't stand there firing ultra weak bullets at each other from 30m away reloading twice to kill a guy? Cover is important in ANY shooter where you can't shoot through walls! You don't need a cover system to use cover! And you shouldn't be able to run across a no mans land even as a heavy! The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 270	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:00:00 - [26] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Taeryn Frost wrote: I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while. GTA has actual cover tactic's built around playing that way... DUST was never a game even remotely built this way... we have no prone positions.. we can't roll or dive... People need to wake up to what made DUST.... well... DUST... because right now there is 20 better options to play with the same game style... but the game was built to be played like that. This is why this game is dieing... it has NOTHING to do with the AR is to powerful ... derp no its the laser... derp its the tactical.. derrp its the mass driver... derrp its the grenade... Dumbass's want some game where your forced to take cover or die... even with high health point values.. legitimate walking breathing "tanks" and healers... And unlimited lifes as you wake up in another clone.... But NOOOOO we want to take cover with broken terrain and textures you get stuck on and glitched hitboxes that get you hit even when behind the cover... So you wan't stand there firing ultra weak bullets at each other from 30m away reloading twice to kill a guy? Cover is important in ANY shooter where you can't shoot through walls! You don't need a cover system to use cover! And you shouldn't be able to run across a no mans land even as a heavy! Cover is NOT important... That is bullshit... That is a very very small factor in situational awareness on the battefield.. No Gunfight in DUST occurs completely behind cover... there is no mechanic's int he game for it... it doesn't even make sense to want that for dust... Long drawn out fights... where sometimes your bullet's feel useless are EXACTLY what people want...i miss fighting a heavy and saying "Screw it not worth the bullets" and running away.... thats what makes DUST different? Dust isn't a place with complicated cities... and massive internal structures where Cover positions are constant... The map's aren't built like that... the terrain isn't built like that... the character movements aren't built like that... STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS GAME INTO SOME COPY.... Take that crap to some other forum.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1817	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:02:00 - [27] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. Many of this game's unique and defining concepts rely on having a long (2+ second) TTK. Tactics take a back seat when getting the DPS on your opponent 0.5 second earlier will allow you to cut them down before they can react. Similarly, things like speed tanking and profile dampening are rendered less useful, because the time from being seen to dying has dropped sharply, to <1 second for many suits and <2 seconds for heavies. All that matters now is having more tank and more DPS than your opponent, and twitchier aim. This is what many shooters are, but it's not what I want Dust to be. edit: Also, TTK is not even mildly abstract- it's quite concrete. EHP divided by DPS = TTK. Changing it is similarly easy: increase EHP, decrease damage, or do both. Wait. So you're saying if people die extremely fast, tactics have lesser importance? Surely the inverse is true. Tactics have to be employed so you kill the other person before they even see you. Isn't that how it works in warfare throughout the times? Increasing TTK compensates for the fact that you weren't thinking, you weren't planning your moves, and hence require that extra HP to make up for your mistake. Speed tanking should work when you're dashing along at 60m, dodging sniper shots and making it a pain for a rifle-user to track you. Dampening gives you that extra second over the opponent to prepare your shots, and drop them before they drop you. DPS is not all that matters, and the whole reason for that is BECAUSE TTK is so short. Because of this, it doesn't matter if you use an Exile or a Duvolle, if you get the jump on someone, you probably will win the fight! eHP is concrete. But DPS? How do you calculate that? We all know simply taking (Damage x RPM)/60 isn't going to give you your true DPS in combat. Have you factored in reloading in the middle of a fight? Cover that could block your shots? Headshot damage? Grenades? Other people firing at the same target? DOZENS of other factors. I repeat: TTK isn't what makes the game more tactical. Feel free to argue otherwise. I'll give you likes if I agree. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 270	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:08:00 - [28] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. Many of this game's unique and defining concepts rely on having a long (2+ second) TTK. Tactics take a back seat when getting the DPS on your opponent 0.5 second earlier will allow you to cut them down before they can react. Similarly, things like speed tanking and profile dampening are rendered less useful, because the time from being seen to dying has dropped sharply, to <1 second for many suits and <2 seconds for heavies. All that matters now is having more tank and more DPS than your opponent, and twitchier aim. This is what many shooters are, but it's not what I want Dust to be. edit: Also, TTK is not even mildly abstract- it's quite concrete. EHP divided by DPS = TTK. Changing it is similarly easy: increase EHP, decrease damage, or do both. Wait. So you're saying if people die extremely fast, tactics have lesser importance? Surely the inverse is true. Tactics have to be employed so you kill the other person before they even see you. Isn't that how it works in warfare throughout the times? Increasing TTK compensates for the fact that you weren't thinking, you weren't planning your moves, and hence require that extra HP to make up for your mistake. Speed tanking should work when you're dashing along at 60m, dodging sniper shots and making it a pain for a rifle-user to track you. Dampening gives you that extra second over the opponent to prepare your shots, and drop them before they drop you. DPS is not all that matters, and the whole reason for that is BECAUSE TTK is so short. Because of this, it doesn't matter if you use an Exile or a Duvolle, if you get the jump on someone, you probably will win the fight! eHP is concrete. But DPS? How do you calculate that? We all know simply taking (Damage x RPM)/60 isn't going to give you your true DPS in combat. Have you factored in reloading in the middle of a fight? Cover that could block your shots? Headshot damage? Grenades? Other people firing at the same target? DOZENS of other factors. I repeat: TTK isn't what makes the game more tactical. Feel free to argue otherwise. I'll give you likes if I agree. WTF dude.... have you even watched the DUST video's about a heavy sniper? like you guys are all comming from CoD? my head's gonna explode... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F&index=1 This is what everyone is doing here.... we aren't here to have a realistic TTK... we are here to be in super human armor and make super human merc's that should feel immortal.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1817	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:15:00 - [29] - Quote Bethhy wrote: WTF dude.... have you even watched the DUST video's about a heavy sniper? like you guys are all comming from CoD? my head's gonna explode... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F&index=1 This is what everyone is doing here.... we aren't here to have a realistic TTK... we are here to be in super human armor and make super human merc's that should feel immortal. I've watched it. I've encountered heavy snipers. What's their TTK again? Oh yes, it's fine, at an average of two deaths per game. But if people are going charging into the fray, disregarding all possible danger they're putting themselves in, and then arguing it's because TTK is too low, then I have a problem. If we change TTK now, what happens when shield bubbles come out? What happens when anti-scanning devices are implemented? Remember those days when you had to go searching for your enemies by visually spotting them? Let's go back to those days, except now the person you just visually spotted has a shield bubble protecting them, with an uplink inside that will promptly spawn a whole squad of people ready to kill you if you get too close. If we alter the mechanics of the game so drastically that it takes 1 extra second to kill someone, regardless of the situation, games will be ridiculous. What is happening right now will just happen at a slower pace. You will die, just less. You will lose games just like before, and win them, just ambushes will take much, much longer. Besides that, where are the benefits? "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Ripcord19981 KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 209	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:24:00 - [30] - Quote Terram Nenokal wrote: TTK is fine. You either need to stick closer to cover, or be more aware of your surroundings. thats the problem, there isnt much cover in most maps and trying to crouch feels wierd because there is a pause between crouching and standing I can only please one person per day. Today is not ur day, tomorrow doesn't look too bright either. Turkey sammich>taco

Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 404	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:44:00 - [31] - Quote Coleman Gray wrote: The 10% dmg buff to all weapons started us on this road.. I would suggest rolling that back to be the first step in getting TTK to a good spot. Do that, see how it goes, then CCP can give small incremental buffs to EHP or something.
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 248	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:19:00 - [32] - Quote Vesago Ghostcore wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Like I said in another thread: "TTK" is a slow, gentle way to tip-toe up to the elephants in the room: Auto Aim and AR damage. Start with talking about removing auto aim and you get no traction. Start with asking for an AR nerf, and it's the same. Start with "TTK", and you can actually start a conversation without a bunch of whiners being dragged tooth and nail towards to the prospect of un-bribing themselves. I think the AR works the way its supposed to. I play with several different weapons and they all seem to work perfectly in the roles they are designed for. Under 60 meters watch out for the AR. Ive had HMG's kill me in a second at 30 meters, Ive been ripped apart by AR's at relatively close range. Scrambler Rifle wastes me in a second without warning. At 100 meters, a laser rifle with auto aim is death unless you have really close cover. Dont even et me started on Mass Drivers. Shot guns are difficult to use in my opinion, but if you can its a 1 on 1 win. I find that lately grenades are kicking my butt, but their not OP. not even nanohive spamming them. if you take a close look at the reasons you die fast i'll bet you find that its mostly your own fault. Or a clever opponents victory. If someone can kill you in a second, most likely you can do the same to them if you reverse the circumstances. TTK is not dependent on game mechanics, its dependent on tactics, skills, and opportunity. make the weapons kill slower, and the results will not change. The guy who got the drop on you still kills you. If a player kills you over and over, don't blame the weapon. Blame yourself. Time to kill has nothing to do with the weapon? What world are you living in? And tell us more about how you feel regarding the Mass Driver.
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 254	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:29:00 - [33] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Wait. So you're saying if people die extremely fast, tactics have lesser importance? Surely the inverse is true. Tactics have to be employed so you kill the other person before they even see you. Isn't that how it works in warfare throughout the times? Increasing TTK compensates for the fact that you weren't thinking, you weren't planning your moves, and hence require that extra HP to make up for your mistake. Speed tanking should work when you're dashing along at 60m, dodging sniper shots and making it a pain for a rifle-user to track you. Dampening gives you that extra second over the opponent to prepare your shots, and drop them before they drop you. DPS is not all that matters, and the whole reason for that is BECAUSE TTK is so short. Because of this, it doesn't matter if you use an Exile or a Duvolle, if you get the jump on someone, you probably will win the fight! eHP is concrete. But DPS? How do you calculate that? We all know simply taking (Damage x RPM)/60 isn't going to give you your true DPS in combat. Have you factored in reloading in the middle of a fight? Cover that could block your shots? Headshot damage? Grenades? Other people firing at the same target? DOZENS of other factors. I repeat: TTK isn't what makes the game more tactical. Feel free to argue otherwise. I'll give you likes if I agree. Increasing TTK doesn't even begin compensate for not thinking, and seeing as you contradict that point in one of your later posts, saying that increasing TTK will have people losing/winning in the same way that they are now, I'm not going to respond to it. Decreasing TTK absolutely means that less tactics are required. All I, and anyone else, need to absolutely trash on the majority of Dust's player base is a scanner, a prof'd out rifle, and some decent nanohives. At this point, I don't even bother with anything else, other than uplinks. 1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy. 2.Prefire your way to a kill (where you take aim before coming out from cover, and fire at literally the first possible instant or even before), then get back behind cover. This step takes about 1 second, or nearly 2 for a heavy. 3. Repeat 2, popping out from a different side 4. Do this until you get bored The above works even with 5+ enemies coming at you from ~50M if they don't have scanners, because they simply can't react fast enough. The game being about who sees who, and who gets the jump on who, is absolutely idiotic when we have access to scanners that are nearly impossible to avoid, and that scan a range larger than the rifles' effective engagement range. Increasing TTK will fix this. In the above example, if it took, say, 2-3 seconds to drop a frame instead of <1 for a damage modded rifle, I would lose, because I was trying to fight multiple enemies alone, like an idiot.
Mortedeamor WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL The Ascendancy 646	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:30:00 - [34] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. DUNNO i have noticed that ttk is much faster but thats only because hit detection is so spot on now GG ccp cant honestly say i dont like that im having quiet a blast incinerating people
8213 Grade No.2 526	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:46:00 - [35] - Quote I agree 100%. What's the point of having 500HP if you die just as fast is in CoD where you have 100HP? It seems ARs just keep getting better and better
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1821	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:49:00 - [36] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Increasing TTK doesn't even begin compensate for not thinking, and seeing as you contradict that point in one of your later posts, saying that increasing TTK will have people losing/winning in the same way that they are now, I'm not going to respond to it. Decreasing TTK absolutely means that less tactics are required. All I, and anyone else, need to absolutely trash on the majority of Dust's player base is a scanner, a prof'd out rifle, and some decent nanohives. At this point, I don't even bother with anything else, other than uplinks. 1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy. 2.Prefire your way to a kill (where you take aim before coming out from cover, and fire at literally the first possible instant or even before), then get back behind cover. This step takes about 1 second, or nearly 2 for a heavy. 3. Repeat 2, popping out from a different side 4. Do this until you get bored The above works even with 5+ enemies coming at you from ~50M if they don't have scanners, because they simply can't react fast enough. The game being about who sees who, and who gets the jump on who, is absolutely idiotic when we have access to scanners that are nearly impossible to avoid, and that scan a range larger than the rifles' effective engagement range. Increasing TTK will fix this. In the above example, if it took, say, 2-3 seconds to drop a frame instead of <1 for a damage modded rifle, I would lose, because I was trying to fight multiple enemies alone, like an idiot. What I meant in what you saw as a contradiction was that increasing TTK, as you guys want, at the very least, will not change what is happening right now, so why do it? It will only lengthen the time to kill people, which means games go for longer, so you take longer to earn the same amount of ISK you can earn right now. You've painted a scenario for today's gameplay. Lets hypothesise about where increased TTK will take us. 1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy. 2. Prefire your way to hitting the enemy. 3. Track the enemy as he leisurely strolls out of your fire, even though you've scanned him, even though you earned the kill, because he has insane HP. 4. Keep trying to kill the same person until you get bored. The above doesn't work for 5+ enemies, because 5 of them, seeing you BEHIND COVER with nanohives, can ignore the fact that you've strategically positioned yourself because they have so much HP and there are five of them that they can simply walk up to you and kill you. Whereas, and this is a contradiction on your part so I guess we're even, with LESS TTK, like you said, a person set up behind cover with nanohives can effectively shut down 5+ people from getting to him/her. Is that not because of tactical positioning? "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 255	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:04:00 - [37] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Increasing TTK doesn't even begin compensate for not thinking, and seeing as you contradict that point in one of your later posts, saying that increasing TTK will have people losing/winning in the same way that they are now, I'm not going to respond to it. Decreasing TTK absolutely means that less tactics are required. All I, and anyone else, need to absolutely trash on the majority of Dust's player base is a scanner, a prof'd out rifle, and some decent nanohives. At this point, I don't even bother with anything else, other than uplinks. 1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy. 2.Prefire your way to a kill (where you take aim before coming out from cover, and fire at literally the first possible instant or even before), then get back behind cover. This step takes about 1 second, or nearly 2 for a heavy. 3. Repeat 2, popping out from a different side 4. Do this until you get bored The above works even with 5+ enemies coming at you from ~50M if they don't have scanners, because they simply can't react fast enough. The game being about who sees who, and who gets the jump on who, is absolutely idiotic when we have access to scanners that are nearly impossible to avoid, and that scan a range larger than the rifles' effective engagement range. Increasing TTK will fix this. In the above example, if it took, say, 2-3 seconds to drop a frame instead of <1 for a damage modded rifle, I would lose, because I was trying to fight multiple enemies alone, like an idiot. What I meant in what you saw as a contradiction was that increasing TTK, as you guys want, at the very least, will not change what is happening right now, so why do it? It will only lengthen the time to kill people, which means games go for longer, so you take longer to earn the same amount of ISK you can earn right now. You've painted a scenario for today's gameplay. Lets hypothesise about where increased TTK will take us. 1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy. 2. Prefire your way to hitting the enemy. 3. Track the enemy as he leisurely strolls out of your fire, even though you've scanned him, even though you earned the kill, because he has insane HP. 4. Keep trying to kill the same person until you get bored. The above doesn't work for 5+ enemies, because 5 of them, seeing you BEHIND COVER with nanohives, can ignore the fact that you've strategically positioned yourself because they have so much HP and there are five of them that they can simply walk up to you and kill you. Whereas, and this is a contradiction on your part so I guess we're even, with LESS TTK, like you said, a person set up behind cover with nanohives can effectively shut down 5+ people from getting to him/her. Is that not because of tactical positioning? 1v5, they SHOULD be able to ignore my positioning and walk up and kill me. "Herp derp I have equipment and am behind cover" does not count as good strategic positioning. Good positions would be if I had two teammates behind different rocks forward and to either side, waiting to unleash crossfire when the 5 leave cover to come at what appears to be a lone merc. Long TTKs, giving time to react, will emphasize the importance of good positioning as I describe it. Shooting first should not guarantee the win. I should have to work with my team, not just set up shop on my own with an active scanner.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1821	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:11:00 - [38] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: 1v5, they SHOULD be able to ignore my positioning and walk up and kill me. "Herp derp I have equipment and am behind cover" does not count as good strategic positioning. Good positions would be if I had two teammates behind different rocks forward and to either side, waiting to unleash crossfire when the 5 leave cover to come at what appears to be a lone merc. Long TTKs, giving time to react, will emphasize the importance of good positioning as I describe it. Shooting first should not guarantee the win. I should have to work with my team, not just set up shop on my own with an active scanner. +1, because I totally agree. But this works in the same way currently, but as I mentioned, just faster. The fact that it takes 3 people to kill 1 guy if we increase TTK should incentivise tactical play IN THE SAME WAY that being killed by 1 guy extremely quickly requires you to work with your team to kill that guy faster, which is what happens now. Once again, changing TTK doesn't change anything except how long games go for. People will adapt and suddenly, we all realise the Duvolle is OP all over again. Because relative to other weapons, the Duvolle is still powerful. And this is the whole point I was trying to get at. This is oversimplification. There has to be an exact thing you want to change; you can't go around saying "Lets change TTK". If this thread was focused on the ARs TTK, or the insta-blapping nature of grenades currently, I wouldn't have even bothered posting in it. Enough crap about TTK, focus the points you guys are making. Essentially all you're saying is "CCP make the game better", that's how general this topic is. Given, it is general discussion, so I will leave now that I have made the points I wanted to make, and hope for the best. If worst comes to worst, I might have the pleasure of saying "I told you so" in a few months. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 919	Posted - 2013.11.06 07:21:00 - [39] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Taeryn Frost wrote: I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while. GTA has actual cover tactic's built around playing that way... DUST was never a game even remotely built this way... we have no prone positions.. we can't roll or dive... People need to wake up to what made DUST.... well... DUST... because right now there is 20 better options to play with the same game style... but the game was built to be played like that. This is why this game is dieing... it has NOTHING to do with the AR is to powerful ... derp no its the laser... derp its the tactical.. derrp its the mass driver... derrp its the grenade... Dumbass's want some game where your forced to take cover or die... even with high health point values.. legitimate walking breathing "tanks" and healers... And unlimited lifes as you wake up in another clone.... But NOOOOO we want to take cover with broken terrain and textures you get stuck on and glitched hitboxes that get you hit even when behind the cover... So you wan't stand there firing ultra weak bullets at each other from 30m away reloading twice to kill a guy? Cover is important in ANY shooter where you can't shoot through walls! You don't need a cover system to use cover! And you shouldn't be able to run across a no mans land even as a heavy! Cover is NOT important... That is bullshit... That is a very very small factor in situational awareness on the battefield.. No Gunfight in DUST occurs completely behind cover... there is no mechanic's int he game for it... it doesn't even make sense to want that for dust... Long drawn out fights... where sometimes your bullet's feel useless are EXACTLY what people want...i miss fighting a heavy and saying "Screw it not worth the bullets" and running away.... thats what makes DUST different? Dust isn't a place with complicated cities... and massive internal structures where Cover positions are constant... The map's aren't built like that... the terrain isn't built like that... the character movements aren't built like that... STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS GAME INTO SOME COPY.... Take that crap to some other forum. Really? Have you played COD, have you actually played COD, do you know how useless ckver is in COD? It takes 4 rounds to kill a guy in the open, it takes 6 rounds to kill a guy in cover. Here in DUST it takes 8bullets to kill a guy in the open, you can't kill a guy with an assault rifle if hemis behind cover! You don't need a mechanic to let you take cover, to take cover! BLACK how no cover system, they just had waist high terrain that you could hide behind! The maps are very cover centric, every corridor has cover at each end, there tonnes of waist high fences, on gantries, there are buildings, there are containers standed around the map. The game should not make you think oh he's not worth the effort, quite the opposite, it should be Damn they've got a heavy squad, we are getting suppressed, there is no safe retreat, we need mechanised support Not, Oh they have a heavy, Im just gonna run across this empty field and escape! I want every round that hits to feel like damage has been done, thats why the added the shield sounds in 1.4, you are meant to feel fragile, so that you don't have people running around like lunatics! The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2164	Posted - 2013.11.06 07:26:00 - [40] - Quote Taeryn Frost wrote: I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while. That alone is proof that the TTK has decreased. If you were not dying faster, you wouldn't feel the need to turtle so much. It's a natural evolution of playstyle based on the demands of the environment you are a part of. Of course, the first rock that started the avalanche fell when aim assist got buffed in 1.4 so that might be when you started to evolve in that direction. The improvements to hit detection are now compounding the need for a longer TTK.

Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 913	Posted - 2013.11.06 07:35:00 - [41] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Taeryn Frost wrote: I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while. That alone is proof that the TTK has decreased. If you were not dying faster, you wouldn't feel the need to turtle so much. It's a natural evolution of playstyle based on the demands of the environment you are a part of. Of course, the first rock that started the avalanche fell when aim assist got buffed in 1.4 so that might be when you started to evolve in that direction. The improvements to hit detection are now compounding the need for a longer TTK. It's amazing, but I don't think you've said a single thing I disagree with in the past week. Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. Time to kill is not "so abstract." It's the length of time you need to hold the trigger while your cursor is over the enemy to kill them. Currently, for a proto AR user, the TTK is between 0.75 and 1.5 seconds depending on enemy gear. Most kills take around a second. The problem with fast TTKs is that it makes the game into a twitch fest. If the enemy is using an AR and I poke my head out for half a second, half of my health disappears. It's like I'm playing CoD all over again. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Rei Shepard Spectre II 811	Posted - 2013.11.06 07:38:00 - [42] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger I am right there with ya dude, my TTK to most suits i come across is trough the roof, they don't even know i am shooting at them before they expire, and if they can outstrafe me for a split second its because they had already build up momentum, if they are standing still, they are insta gib. And i dont even use the feature of charging shots on my Imperial these days anymore. I held back 8 guys yesterday from swarming my location, they all dropped the second they stepped out of cover and some of these were Blauhelme guys, so not easy guys, Kasumi snuck around and catched me reloading, her TTK was so fast my 800 EHP suit didnt survive long enough to finish the reloading animation and i was 2/3 the trough it when she opened fire, i just had time to turn and watch my EHP get creamed. Other games that evening where pretty devastating with me jumping in a game going 30/0 vs a team, and i joined the game halfway trough. Ive also been on the receiving end of a beating going 16/7 vs 2 teams, on my side everyone else went deep negative... I dont mind having good Hit detection and virtually no lag or problems with my guns (SCR seems to be fixed since yesterday), but the TTK is too low. Edit: My TTK sits at around 0.2-0.3 seconds now, from the point of opening fire to enemy dropping, they don't even get to react anymore, IE: noone has pooped a deathnade all night... Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 314	Posted - 2013.11.06 07:42:00 - [43] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. Many of this game's unique and defining concepts rely on having a long (2+ second) TTK. Tactics take a back seat when getting the DPS on your opponent 0.5 second earlier will allow you to cut them down before they can react. Similarly, things like speed tanking and profile dampening are rendered less useful, because the time from being seen to dying has dropped sharply, to <1 second for many suits and <2 seconds for heavies. All that matters now is having more tank and more DPS than your opponent, and twitchier aim. This is what many shooters are, but it's not what I want Dust to be. edit: Also, TTK is not even mildly abstract- it's quite concrete. EHP divided by DPS = TTK. Changing it is similarly easy: increase EHP, decrease damage, or do both. This shows how little people understand how TTK affects an FPS, in reality it plays out in reverse. By the way, I'm not arguing for one or the other but they both design choices. One favours one type of player, the other favours a different type of player. High TTK games (ie where you have lots of EHP compared to damage and die more slowly) favour players with superior eye hand coordination. Tracking a moving target to keep the damage on is a twitch skill, not a tactics skill. With high TTK if you get surprised by an enemy player you have time in which to engage your reflexes and turn an ambush around into a contest of movement and accuracy. In general a high TTK favours players with good eye hand co-ordination and fast reaction times, bunnyhopping and strafing matter much more. This often, but not always means younger players or players who practice relentlessly. Low TTK games (ie where you have low EHP and die quickly) favour players with superior map knowledge and sneaking skills. Given everyone dies instantly your main skill is not tracking, its making sure you shoot first and, if possible, make sure the other guy never gets a chance to return fire because odds are if he does you'll both die. Visibility and cover matter much more. In general low TTK favours players with less genetically endowed prowess because they can use knowledge and experience to make up for their reflex shortcomings and their high reflex enemies are forced to move more cautiously like they do. High TTK games also tend to be more high speed whereas low TTK games tend to move slower because being exposed usually equals dead. Of course every game contains elements of both sides but there is usually a bias in any one particular game's design model. Both Dust and Unreal require twitch, eye hand co-ord, map knowledge and canny movement but the cocktail is different to say COD or PS2. So Tl;dr you can prefer either type of game but make sure you REALLY understand what you're asking for.
Rei Shepard Spectre II 811	Posted - 2013.11.06 07:54:00 - [44] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. Many of this game's unique and defining concepts rely on having a long (2+ second) TTK. Tactics take a back seat when getting the DPS on your opponent 0.5 second earlier will allow you to cut them down before they can react. Similarly, things like speed tanking and profile dampening are rendered less useful, because the time from being seen to dying has dropped sharply, to <1 second for many suits and <2 seconds for heavies. All that matters now is having more tank and more DPS than your opponent, and twitchier aim. This is what many shooters are, but it's not what I want Dust to be. edit: Also, TTK is not even mildly abstract- it's quite concrete. EHP divided by DPS = TTK. Changing it is similarly easy: increase EHP, decrease damage, or do both. This shows how little people understand how TTK affects an FPS, in reality it plays out in reverse. By the way, I'm not arguing for one or the other but they both design choices. One favours one type of player, the other favours a different type of player. High TTK games (ie where you have lots of EHP compared to damage and die more slowly) favour players with superior eye hand coordination. Tracking a moving target to keep the damage on is a twitch skill, not a tactics skill. With high TTK if you get surprised by an enemy player you have time in which to engage your reflexes and turn an ambush around into a contest of movement and accuracy. In general a high TTK favours players with good eye hand co-ordination and fast reaction times, bunnyhopping and strafing matter much more. This often, but not always means younger players or players who practice relentlessly. Low TTK games (ie where you have low EHP and die quickly) favour players with superior map knowledge and sneaking skills. Given everyone dies instantly your main skill is not tracking, its making sure you shoot first and, if possible, make sure the other guy never gets a chance to return fire because odds are if he does you'll both die. Visibility and cover matter much more. In general low TTK favours players with less genetically endowed prowess because they can use knowledge and experience to make up for their reflex shortcomings and their high reflex enemies are forced to move more cautiously like they do. High TTK games also tend to be more high speed whereas low TTK games tend to move slower because being exposed usually equals dead. Of course every game contains elements of both sides but there is usually a bias in any one particular game's design model. Both Dust and Unreal require twitch, eye hand co-ord, map knowledge and canny movement but the cocktail is different to say COD or PS2. So Tl;dr you can prefer either type of game but make sure you REALLY understand what you're asking for. You are absolutely correct on the matter of TTK vs Player skill, but the point really is that, i don't feel like i am wearing a suit of armor anymore, even less so for my opponents. I don't sneak, i dont flank, i play purely on Reaction Speed & Superiour aiming skill and ill wing it when i see it happen in front of me, ive never really needed any tactics are cunning in 99% of shooters. Dust trough chromosone, made me realize i missed something but the more we are heading back to the twitchshooter genre, the less i feel the need to employ tactics against multiple people. Back then with the low TTK, it was a real feat dowing 3-6 opponents because if they employed tactics they could live long enough to get close to me using leapfrog tactics and i had to adapt to this. Right now, first guy, second guy and third guy die within the first second, fourth guy wont make it to the next cover and the fifth and sixth guys at this point are panicking and heading back, getting shot in the back fixes all my problems. (I am not saying i can do this against other high level players, because i cant, idd be dead from 2-4 people returning fire, but regular players don't stand a chance, unless they come up to me from behind and even then its still 70-30% in favor of me. (unless shotgun) Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 913	Posted - 2013.11.06 07:56:00 - [45] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. Many of this game's unique and defining concepts rely on having a long (2+ second) TTK. Tactics take a back seat when getting the DPS on your opponent 0.5 second earlier will allow you to cut them down before they can react. Similarly, things like speed tanking and profile dampening are rendered less useful, because the time from being seen to dying has dropped sharply, to <1 second for many suits and <2 seconds for heavies. All that matters now is having more tank and more DPS than your opponent, and twitchier aim. This is what many shooters are, but it's not what I want Dust to be. edit: Also, TTK is not even mildly abstract- it's quite concrete. EHP divided by DPS = TTK. Changing it is similarly easy: increase EHP, decrease damage, or do both. This shows how little people understand how TTK affects an FPS, in reality it plays out in reverse. By the way, I'm not arguing for one or the other but they both design choices. One favours one type of player, the other favours a different type of player. High TTK games (ie where you have lots of EHP compared to damage and die more slowly) favour players with superior eye hand coordination. Tracking a moving target to keep the damage on is a twitch skill, not a tactics skill. With high TTK if you get surprised by an enemy player you have time in which to engage your reflexes and turn an ambush around into a contest of movement and accuracy. In general a high TTK favours players with good eye hand co-ordination and fast reaction times, bunnyhopping and strafing matter much more. This often, but not always means younger players or players who practice relentlessly. Low TTK games (ie where you have low EHP and die quickly) favour players with superior map knowledge and sneaking skills. Given everyone dies instantly your main skill is not tracking, its making sure you shoot first and, if possible, make sure the other guy never gets a chance to return fire because odds are if he does you'll both die. Visibility and cover matter much more. In general low TTK favours players with less genetically endowed prowess because they can use knowledge and experience to make up for their reflex shortcomings and their high reflex enemies are forced to move more cautiously like they do. High TTK games also tend to be more high speed whereas low TTK games tend to move slower because being exposed usually equals dead. So Tl;dr you can prefer either type of game but make sure you REALLY understand what you're asking for. Low TTK games encourage preemptive attacks. These do not necessarily require tactics or map knowledge; just that you react faster when you see an enemy. Who wins in a 1 vs 1 in a CoD game when they are face to face? The guy who pulls the trigger first instantly wins. This is the definition of "twitch"; not having good accuracy and being able to follow a target's evasive maneuvers while ensuring they cannot escape. Low TTK games tend to move FASTER, because everyone is competing for tenths of seconds in advantages. Look at Call of Duty. Is that a "slow paced" game? No, everyone just runs around OHKOing each other before the other guy can react. You could say this is in part due to the fast movement speeds, but if you lowered the movement speed no one would be able to get to cover since the TTKs are so fast. High TTK games encourage tracking a target long enough to kill them and placing yourself in a situation where you WILL have enough time to kill them. In CoD, it doesn't matter where you are as much. If you get shot, you die, with no chance to get to cover unless you are 1m away from it. The only thing you need to worry about is pulling the trigger first, which can be acquired through tactics (try placing yourself in a strategic location for a few seconds and see how fast they call you a camper) or running around like a chicken with no head mashing the fire button with every flicker of movement. Can you play the game strategically? Yes, you can. Does the majority of the player base? No, they use it to show off their twitch skills, because twitching becomes a valid tactic. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 314	Posted - 2013.11.06 08:02:00 - [46] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: You are absolutely correct on the matter of TTK vs Player skill, but the point really is that, i don't feel like i am wearing a suit of armor anymore, even less so for my opponents. Its not a lore thing though, offense has always outclassed defense throughout military history. You just need to remember you might be wearing super-future armour but the other guy is shooting at you with a super-future gun. That railgun firing a gravitically compacted anti-matter mini-nuke at you at Mach 12 is going to go through anything. So, lore aside, its just a preference in style. Preferably a game should stick to its original style, I'd be pissed if COD turned into a strafing shooter.
Rei Shepard Spectre II 811	Posted - 2013.11.06 08:07:00 - [47] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Rei Shepard wrote: You are absolutely correct on the matter of TTK vs Player skill, but the point really is that, i don't feel like i am wearing a suit of armor anymore, even less so for my opponents. Its not a lore thing though, offense has always outclassed defense throughout military history. You just need to remember you might be wearing super-future armour but the other guy is shooting at you with a super-future gun. That railgun firing a gravitically compacted anti-matter mini-nuke at you at Mach 12 is going to go through anything. So, lore aside, its just a preference in style. Preferably a game should stick to its original style, I'd be pissed if COD turned into a strafing shooter. I understand the point of Offensive weapons always being better then the defensive part, its just that we at first got game B, after all the Games A weve played, being B something diffrent, now they are changing it to be an A. If i wanted to play COD, idd be there Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!"
neurol forever Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2013.11.06 08:08:00 - [48] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger Try this co-op. TTK is like you want and look at amazing tactics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT6e2NQgjIU Sorry for my English.
Repe Susi Rautaleijona Top Men. 753	Posted - 2013.11.06 08:48:00 - [49] - Quote Very much information here. Long posts for and against. One thing I know, TTK too low. Takes away the enjoyment to get killed so fast. Need to adjust. Don't know if can. Old. Not quick like young. Remember, remember, the 30th of november
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 158	Posted - 2013.11.06 08:52:00 - [50] - Quote technicaly ttk hasn't gone down and any pro player has had the same apparent TTK since release, but AA and improved hit detection have made it easier to apply full DPS for the average player and so the average apparent TTK has has gone down. yes suits really need double the base HP at a minimum to allow any sort of tactics introduced by modules to make a difference.

hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 158	Posted - 2013.11.06 08:56:00 - [51] - Quote Buddha Brown wrote: "TTK" search on forums 3 days ago: 0 hits "TTK" search today: Everybody QQ train is always rollin naw the TTK/TTL posts have been building for months now, longer if you count the few people who could apply DPS in the early builds who didn't like how fast they were killing.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 158	Posted - 2013.11.06 09:07:00 - [52] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Taeryn Frost wrote: I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while. GTA has actual cover tactic's built around playing that way... DUST was never a game even remotely built this way... we have no prone positions.. we can't roll or dive... People need to wake up to what made DUST.... well... DUST... because right now there is 20 better options to play with the same game style... but the game was built to be played like that. This is why this game is dieing... it has NOTHING to do with the AR is to powerful ... derp no its the laser... derp its the tactical.. derrp its the mass driver... derrp its the grenade... Dumbass's want some game where your forced to take cover or die... even with high health point values.. legitimate walking breathing "tanks" and healers... And unlimited lifes as you wake up in another clone.... But NOOOOO we want to take cover with broken terrain and textures you get stuck on and glitched hitboxes that get you hit even when behind the cover... So you wan't stand there firing ultra weak bullets at each other from 30m away reloading twice to kill a guy? Cover is important in ANY shooter where you can't shoot through walls! You don't need a cover system to use cover! And you shouldn't be able to run across a no mans land even as a heavy! no but you can kill proto in less then a third of a clip, and if you are half way descent most matches you can easily get 4 kills to a clip, that's ridiculous considering how fast that quarter clip goes. Before hit detection was bad enough that you couldn't readily do this but those days are long past and you should not be getting more then two kills per clip.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2005	Posted - 2013.11.06 09:34:00 - [53] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger I never was that worried about TTK till yesterday's patch. Before i only felt the AR was the one weapon offering a way too fast TTK in most situations. I dont find it odd to be OSed by a shotgun at point blank, a sniper HS, or a pinpointed FG blast. But yeah, with the improved HD, it felt obvious to me people (and me) started dropping waaaay quicker. So yeah, there probably are some adjustments needed. Just like i said to Wolfman this morning, it's overall a huge improvement. Rest is just side effects of better performance and requires number tweaking. My personal opinion here is that the 10% uprising buff to weapon damage is no longer needed (like a lot of people already said before 1.6) and the aim assist isnt required to be so efficient now that bullets actually seem to hit with no weird moments. Just using those two mecanics should be enough to cut the TTK dropping so low. What are your thoughts ? This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
steadyhand amarr TeamPlayers EoN. 1730	Posted - 2013.11.06 09:40:00 - [54] - Quote 100% agree taking off the damage buff will most likely be enough glad the cpm member achknlowged the issue :-) "my faith is my shield, the empress's light my guide and my fury my sword" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 285	Posted - 2013.11.06 13:54:00 - [55] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Taeryn Frost wrote: I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK. Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while. GTA has actual cover tactic's built around playing that way... DUST was never a game even remotely built this way... we have no prone positions.. we can't roll or dive... People need to wake up to what made DUST.... well... DUST... because right now there is 20 better options to play with the same game style... but the game was built to be played like that. This is why this game is dieing... it has NOTHING to do with the AR is to powerful ... derp no its the laser... derp its the tactical.. derrp its the mass driver... derrp its the grenade... Dumbass's want some game where your forced to take cover or die... even with high health point values.. legitimate walking breathing "tanks" and healers... And unlimited lifes as you wake up in another clone.... But NOOOOO we want to take cover with broken terrain and textures you get stuck on and glitched hitboxes that get you hit even when behind the cover... So you wan't stand there firing ultra weak bullets at each other from 30m away reloading twice to kill a guy? Cover is important in ANY shooter where you can't shoot through walls! You don't need a cover system to use cover! And you shouldn't be able to run across a no mans land even as a heavy! Cover is NOT important... That is bullshit... That is a very very small factor in situational awareness on the battefield.. No Gunfight in DUST occurs completely behind cover... there is no mechanic's int he game for it... it doesn't even make sense to want that for dust... Long drawn out fights... where sometimes your bullet's feel useless are EXACTLY what people want...i miss fighting a heavy and saying "Screw it not worth the bullets" and running away.... thats what makes DUST different? Dust isn't a place with complicated cities... and massive internal structures where Cover positions are constant... The map's aren't built like that... the terrain isn't built like that... the character movements aren't built like that... STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS GAME INTO SOME COPY.... Take that crap to some other forum. Really? Have you played COD, have you actually played COD, do you know how useless ckver is in COD? It takes 4 rounds to kill a guy in the open, it takes 6 rounds to kill a guy in cover. Here in DUST it takes 8bullets to kill a guy in the open, you can't kill a guy with an assault rifle if hemis behind cover! You don't need a mechanic to let you take cover, to take cover! BLACK how no cover system, they just had waist high terrain that you could hide behind! The maps are very cover centric, every corridor has cover at each end, there tonnes of waist high fences, on gantries, there are buildings, there are containers standed around the map. The game should not make you think oh he's not worth the effort, quite the opposite, it should be Damn they've got a heavy squad, we are getting suppressed, there is no safe retreat, we need mechanised support Not, Oh they have a heavy, Im just gonna run across this empty field and escape! I want every round that hits to feel like damage has been done, thats why the added the shield sounds in 1.4, you are meant to feel fragile, so that you don't have people running around like lunatics! Sigh monkey.. This is so twitch shooter right now... I'm dropping 4-5 people consistently with one clip.. I've been playing these kind's of FPS's all my life... it benefit's my experience but it ruins DUST.. Most cover you take from old school FPS's can be shot through... as bullets will go through things IRL This is fast TTK And that's a tournament setting with some of the best players in the world and he still put them down like that... and trust me heaton is no fluke... that's a guy legitimate aiming for the head's and hitting accurately. Cover and the entire way it works in DUST is... well... they don't know each other exist really... we have had to resort to "hiding" more as 1 person's bullets even without the ability to aim.. can put you down. None of the map's are even really built with this idea... 16vs16 its hard to design map's with consistent cover in alll area's a fight could take place... and we aren't even at the player sizes they where shooting for of 32vs32. Peaking out of cover with 10 people looking at you sure you die...or barely limp away. but one person is doing what 5-10 people used to.
xp3ll3d dust The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 98	Posted - 2013.11.06 15:24:00 - [56] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Just like i said to Wolfman this morning, it's overall a huge improvement. Rest is just side effects of better performance and requires number tweaking. My personal opinion here is that the 10% uprising buff to weapon damage is no longer needed (like a lot of people already said before 1.6) and the aim assist isnt required to be so efficient now that bullets actually seem to hit with no weird moments. I agree with dropping the 10% weapon dmg buff. But the aim assist should stay on. That will result in tactics & movement being more important than having a dead eye aim. If you can get the drop on them from behind, you can take them down without aim issues with DS3 getting in the way.
Ulme Mees Eesti Leegion 46	Posted - 2013.11.06 18:47:00 - [57] - Quote +1 OP Please CCP fix the game, this **** is boring as hell Fear is a disease!
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 922	Posted - 2013.11.06 19:36:00 - [58] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Bethhy wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: So you wan't stand there firing ultra weak bullets at each other from 30m away reloading twice to kill a guy? Cover is important in ANY shooter where you can't shoot through walls! You don't need a cover system to use cover! And you shouldn't be able to run across a no mans land even as a heavy! Cover is NOT important... That is bullshit... That is a very very small factor in situational awareness on the battefield.. No Gunfight in DUST occurs completely behind cover... there is no mechanic's int he game for it... it doesn't even make sense to want that for dust... Long drawn out fights... where sometimes your bullet's feel useless are EXACTLY what people want...i miss fighting a heavy and saying "Screw it not worth the bullets" and running away.... thats what makes DUST different? Dust isn't a place with complicated cities... and massive internal structures where Cover positions are constant... The map's aren't built like that... the terrain isn't built like that... the character movements aren't built like that... STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS GAME INTO SOME COPY.... Take that crap to some other forum. Really? Have you played COD, have you actually played COD, do you know how useless ckver is in COD? It takes 4 rounds to kill a guy in the open, it takes 6 rounds to kill a guy in cover. Here in DUST it takes 8bullets to kill a guy in the open, you can't kill a guy with an assault rifle if hemis behind cover! You don't need a mechanic to let you take cover, to take cover! BLACK how no cover system, they just had waist high terrain that you could hide behind! The maps are very cover centric, every corridor has cover at each end, there tonnes of waist high fences, on gantries, there are buildings, there are containers standed around the map. The game should not make you think oh he's not worth the effort, quite the opposite, it should be Damn they've got a heavy squad, we are getting suppressed, there is no safe retreat, we need mechanised support Not, Oh they have a heavy, Im just gonna run across this empty field and escape! I want every round that hits to feel like damage has been done, thats why the added the shield sounds in 1.4, you are meant to feel fragile, so that you don't have people running around like lunatics! Sigh monkey.. This is so twitch shooter right now... I'm dropping 4-5 people consistently with one clip.. I've been playing these kind's of FPS's all my life... it benefit's my experience but it ruins DUST.. Most cover you take from old school FPS's can be shot through... as bullets will go through things IRL This is fast TTK And that's a tournament setting with some of the best players in the world and he still put them down like that... and trust me heaton is no fluke... that's a guy legitimate aiming for the head's and hitting accurately. Cover and the entire way it works in DUST is... well... they don't know each other exist really... we have had to resort to "hiding" more as 1 person's bullets even without the ability to aim.. can put you down. None of the map's are even really built with this idea... 16vs16 its hard to design map's with consistent cover in alll area's a fight could take place... and we aren't even at the player sizes they where shooting for of 32vs32. Peaking out of cover with 10 people looking at you sure you die...or barely limp away. but one person is doing what 5-10 people used to. I think this needs clarification bexause I had assumed you had read my original post! I want a longer TTK just not to the same degree you do! Our ideas of the perfect TTK are gonna be different! Cover hiding call it what you like, we have cover and we should feel the need to use! If you are looking for tonnes of waist high crates to use as cover you are doing it wrong! We are singing of the same hymn sheet, We are just at differnt verses! The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both
Dengar Skirata the third day Public Disorder. 18	Posted - 2013.11.06 20:38:00 - [59] - Quote I completely agree. Time to kill is way too fast with the newest update. I'm glad that hit detection is finally working, but now that it is, almost every weapon is an automatic death machine. Couple that with aim assist and you get a twitch shooter. I hope they fix this soon, because right now, it feels like tactics are out of the question. I might as well run starter militia fits; otherwise I lose way too much ISK to justify using anything else.
Renolissa Academy Inferno E-R-A 1067	Posted - 2013.11.06 22:18:00 - [60] - Quote Damn! I miss the chromosome!

Repe Susi Rautaleijona Top Men. 756	Posted - 2013.11.07 06:55:00 - [61] - Quote CCP do something or risk losing your players. Remember, remember, the 30th of november
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 328	Posted - 2013.11.07 07:16:00 - [62] - Quote Repe Susi wrote: CCP do something or risk losing your players. Hmm, everyone in alliance seem pissed right now about the patch and 3x sp event +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1334	Posted - 2013.11.07 07:50:00 - [63] - Quote This is really in desperate need of an emergency patch. A few weeks ago when my alliance made the move to FW I practically had to beg people to log in and give the game another chance. Applied damage is now so high that it has completely broken the game. It was bad before, but since 1.6 deployed I have not witnessed a match that was in any way a contest. The first minute or two determines which side is going to stomp. I've been on both sides, either I spawn into a meat grinder so brutal that there is no point in even trying, or I spend 10 minutes running around with nothing to do as a logi and nothing to shoot at.
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 320	Posted - 2013.11.07 20:10:00 - [64] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Bethhy wrote: WTF dude.... have you even watched the DUST video's about a heavy sniper? like you guys are all comming from CoD? my head's gonna explode... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F&index=1 This is what everyone is doing here.... we aren't here to have a realistic TTK... we are here to be in super human armor and make super human merc's that should feel immortal. I've watched it. I've encountered heavy snipers. What's their TTK again? Oh yes, it's fine, at an average of two deaths per game. But if people are going charging into the fray, disregarding all possible danger they're putting themselves in, and then arguing it's because TTK is too low, then I have a problem. If we change TTK now, what happens when shield bubbles come out? What happens when anti-scanning devices are implemented? Remember those days when you had to go searching for your enemies by visually spotting them? Let's go back to those days, except now the person you just visually spotted has a shield bubble protecting them, with an uplink inside that will promptly spawn a whole squad of people ready to kill you if you get too close. If we alter the mechanics of the game so drastically that it takes 1 extra second to kill someone, regardless of the situation, games will be ridiculous. What is happening right now will just happen at a slower pace. You will die, just less. You will lose games just like before, and win them, just ambushes will take much, much longer. Besides that, where are the benefits? In other words, you have no gun game and rely on ambushing others over versatility of combat. I remember getting ambushed, loosing 60%of my health, dodging around cover, then killing the guy who ambushed me. That was fun. You can no longer do that ingame. As soon as you are spotted you are dead if inside gun range. What's the point of armor or shields if they don't actually DO anything to prolong your life? Why not run in with nothing but a MLT fit? It won't last any longer than a PRO with full tanking. Aim bots vs strategists. Lazy people want their aim bots to be their victory. Too much time in a fight and their brains start to fry because their only tactic, ambush praynspray doesn't last past the first second of combat. If you can read this, it means you are reading.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1335	Posted - 2013.11.07 20:13:00 - [65] - Quote Seriously, the only thing of any value right now is higher levels of damage so that you can take down more targets with each clip. If I play tonight, I'll probably be experimenting with high level ARs on as cheap a dropsuit as possible, with nothing but damage mods, stamina enhancers and profile dampers. You can't tank any damage now, so why bother trying? Better to not be seen in the first place.
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 320	Posted - 2013.11.07 20:14:00 - [66] - Quote Ops If you can read this, it means you are reading.
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 250	Posted - 2013.11.07 20:19:00 - [67] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at. if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger I never was that worried about TTK till yesterday's patch. Before i only felt the AR was the one weapon offering a way too fast TTK in most situations. I dont find it odd to be OSed by a shotgun at point blank, a sniper HS, or a pinpointed FG blast. But yeah, with the improved HD, it felt obvious to me people (and me) started dropping waaaay quicker. So yeah, there probably are some adjustments needed. Just like i said to Wolfman this morning, it's overall a huge improvement. Rest is just side effects of better performance and requires number tweaking. My personal opinion here is that the 10% uprising buff to weapon damage is no longer needed (like a lot of people already said before 1.6) and the aim assist isnt required to be so efficient now that bullets actually seem to hit with no weird moments. Just using those two mecanics should be enough to cut the TTK dropping so low. What are your thoughts ? I agree with removing auto aim, but not with a 10% nerf across the board. Not every weapon is dropping suits in under 2 seconds.


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