DUST Search - TIme to kill needs addressing

Awry Barux wrote:

Increasing TTK doesn't even begin compensate for not thinking, and seeing as you contradict that point in one of your later posts, saying that increasing TTK will have people losing/winning in the same way that they are now, I'm not going to respond to it.

Decreasing TTK absolutely means that less tactics are required. All I, and anyone else, need to absolutely trash on the majority of Dust's player base is a scanner, a prof'd out rifle, and some decent nanohives. At this point, I don't even bother with anything else, other than uplinks.

1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy.
2.Prefire your way to a kill (where you take aim before coming out from cover, and fire at literally the first possible instant or even before), then get back behind cover. This step takes about 1 second, or nearly 2 for a heavy.
3. Repeat 2, popping out from a different side
4. Do this until you get bored

The above works even with 5+ enemies coming at you from ~50M if they don't have scanners, because they simply can't react fast enough.

The game being about who sees who, and who gets the jump on who, is absolutely idiotic when we have access to scanners that are nearly impossible to avoid, and that scan a range larger than the rifles' effective engagement range.

Increasing TTK will fix this. In the above example, if it took, say, 2-3 seconds to drop a frame instead of <1 for a damage modded rifle, I would lose, because I was trying to fight multiple enemies alone, like an idiot.

"..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed."


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Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1807	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:20:00 - [1] - Quote Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1817	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:02:00 - [2] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type. Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK? I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on. Ttyl, k. Many of this game's unique and defining concepts rely on having a long (2+ second) TTK. Tactics take a back seat when getting the DPS on your opponent 0.5 second earlier will allow you to cut them down before they can react. Similarly, things like speed tanking and profile dampening are rendered less useful, because the time from being seen to dying has dropped sharply, to <1 second for many suits and <2 seconds for heavies. All that matters now is having more tank and more DPS than your opponent, and twitchier aim. This is what many shooters are, but it's not what I want Dust to be. edit: Also, TTK is not even mildly abstract- it's quite concrete. EHP divided by DPS = TTK. Changing it is similarly easy: increase EHP, decrease damage, or do both. Wait. So you're saying if people die extremely fast, tactics have lesser importance? Surely the inverse is true. Tactics have to be employed so you kill the other person before they even see you. Isn't that how it works in warfare throughout the times? Increasing TTK compensates for the fact that you weren't thinking, you weren't planning your moves, and hence require that extra HP to make up for your mistake. Speed tanking should work when you're dashing along at 60m, dodging sniper shots and making it a pain for a rifle-user to track you. Dampening gives you that extra second over the opponent to prepare your shots, and drop them before they drop you. DPS is not all that matters, and the whole reason for that is BECAUSE TTK is so short. Because of this, it doesn't matter if you use an Exile or a Duvolle, if you get the jump on someone, you probably will win the fight! eHP is concrete. But DPS? How do you calculate that? We all know simply taking (Damage x RPM)/60 isn't going to give you your true DPS in combat. Have you factored in reloading in the middle of a fight? Cover that could block your shots? Headshot damage? Grenades? Other people firing at the same target? DOZENS of other factors. I repeat: TTK isn't what makes the game more tactical. Feel free to argue otherwise. I'll give you likes if I agree. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1817	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:15:00 - [3] - Quote Bethhy wrote: WTF dude.... have you even watched the DUST video's about a heavy sniper? like you guys are all comming from CoD? my head's gonna explode... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F&index=1 This is what everyone is doing here.... we aren't here to have a realistic TTK... we are here to be in super human armor and make super human merc's that should feel immortal. I've watched it. I've encountered heavy snipers. What's their TTK again? Oh yes, it's fine, at an average of two deaths per game. But if people are going charging into the fray, disregarding all possible danger they're putting themselves in, and then arguing it's because TTK is too low, then I have a problem. If we change TTK now, what happens when shield bubbles come out? What happens when anti-scanning devices are implemented? Remember those days when you had to go searching for your enemies by visually spotting them? Let's go back to those days, except now the person you just visually spotted has a shield bubble protecting them, with an uplink inside that will promptly spawn a whole squad of people ready to kill you if you get too close. If we alter the mechanics of the game so drastically that it takes 1 extra second to kill someone, regardless of the situation, games will be ridiculous. What is happening right now will just happen at a slower pace. You will die, just less. You will lose games just like before, and win them, just ambushes will take much, much longer. Besides that, where are the benefits? "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1821	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:49:00 - [4] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Increasing TTK doesn't even begin compensate for not thinking, and seeing as you contradict that point in one of your later posts, saying that increasing TTK will have people losing/winning in the same way that they are now, I'm not going to respond to it. Decreasing TTK absolutely means that less tactics are required. All I, and anyone else, need to absolutely trash on the majority of Dust's player base is a scanner, a prof'd out rifle, and some decent nanohives. At this point, I don't even bother with anything else, other than uplinks. 1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy. 2.Prefire your way to a kill (where you take aim before coming out from cover, and fire at literally the first possible instant or even before), then get back behind cover. This step takes about 1 second, or nearly 2 for a heavy. 3. Repeat 2, popping out from a different side 4. Do this until you get bored The above works even with 5+ enemies coming at you from ~50M if they don't have scanners, because they simply can't react fast enough. The game being about who sees who, and who gets the jump on who, is absolutely idiotic when we have access to scanners that are nearly impossible to avoid, and that scan a range larger than the rifles' effective engagement range. Increasing TTK will fix this. In the above example, if it took, say, 2-3 seconds to drop a frame instead of <1 for a damage modded rifle, I would lose, because I was trying to fight multiple enemies alone, like an idiot. What I meant in what you saw as a contradiction was that increasing TTK, as you guys want, at the very least, will not change what is happening right now, so why do it? It will only lengthen the time to kill people, which means games go for longer, so you take longer to earn the same amount of ISK you can earn right now. You've painted a scenario for today's gameplay. Lets hypothesise about where increased TTK will take us. 1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy. 2. Prefire your way to hitting the enemy. 3. Track the enemy as he leisurely strolls out of your fire, even though you've scanned him, even though you earned the kill, because he has insane HP. 4. Keep trying to kill the same person until you get bored. The above doesn't work for 5+ enemies, because 5 of them, seeing you BEHIND COVER with nanohives, can ignore the fact that you've strategically positioned yourself because they have so much HP and there are five of them that they can simply walk up to you and kill you. Whereas, and this is a contradiction on your part so I guess we're even, with LESS TTK, like you said, a person set up behind cover with nanohives can effectively shut down 5+ people from getting to him/her. Is that not because of tactical positioning? "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1821	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:11:00 - [5] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: 1v5, they SHOULD be able to ignore my positioning and walk up and kill me. "Herp derp I have equipment and am behind cover" does not count as good strategic positioning. Good positions would be if I had two teammates behind different rocks forward and to either side, waiting to unleash crossfire when the 5 leave cover to come at what appears to be a lone merc. Long TTKs, giving time to react, will emphasize the importance of good positioning as I describe it. Shooting first should not guarantee the win. I should have to work with my team, not just set up shop on my own with an active scanner. +1, because I totally agree. But this works in the same way currently, but as I mentioned, just faster. The fact that it takes 3 people to kill 1 guy if we increase TTK should incentivise tactical play IN THE SAME WAY that being killed by 1 guy extremely quickly requires you to work with your team to kill that guy faster, which is what happens now. Once again, changing TTK doesn't change anything except how long games go for. People will adapt and suddenly, we all realise the Duvolle is OP all over again. Because relative to other weapons, the Duvolle is still powerful. And this is the whole point I was trying to get at. This is oversimplification. There has to be an exact thing you want to change; you can't go around saying "Lets change TTK". If this thread was focused on the ARs TTK, or the insta-blapping nature of grenades currently, I wouldn't have even bothered posting in it. Enough crap about TTK, focus the points you guys are making. Essentially all you're saying is "CCP make the game better", that's how general this topic is. Given, it is general discussion, so I will leave now that I have made the points I wanted to make, and hope for the best. If worst comes to worst, I might have the pleasure of saying "I told you so" in a few months. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar