The 10% dmg buff to all weapons started us on this road..

I think the AR works the way its supposed to. I play with several different weapons and they all seem to work perfectly in the roles they are designed for.

Under 60 meters watch out for the AR. Ive had HMG's kill me in a second at 30 meters, Ive been ripped apart by AR's at relatively close range.

Scrambler Rifle wastes me in a second without warning. At 100 meters, a laser rifle with auto aim is death unless you have really close cover. Dont even et me started on Mass Drivers. Shot guns are difficult to use in my opinion, but if you can its a 1 on 1 win.
I find that lately grenades are kicking my butt, but their not OP. not even nanohive spamming them.

if you take a close look at the reasons you die fast i'll bet you find that its mostly your own fault. Or a clever opponents victory.

If someone can kill you in a second, most likely you can do the same to them if you reverse the circumstances. TTK is not dependent on game mechanics, its dependent on tactics, skills, and opportunity. make the weapons kill slower, and the results will not change. The guy who got the drop on you still kills you.

If a player kills you over and over, don't blame the weapon. Blame yourself.

Wait. So you're saying if people die extremely fast, tactics have lesser importance? Surely the inverse is true. Tactics have to be employed so you kill the other person before they even see you. Isn't that how it works in warfare throughout the times?

Increasing TTK compensates for the fact that you weren't thinking, you weren't planning your moves, and hence require that extra HP to make up for your mistake.

Speed tanking should work when you're dashing along at 60m, dodging sniper shots and making it a pain for a rifle-user to track you. Dampening gives you that extra second over the opponent to prepare your shots, and drop them before they drop you.

DPS is not all that matters, and the whole reason for that is BECAUSE TTK is so short. Because of this, it doesn't matter if you use an Exile or a Duvolle, if you get the jump on someone, you probably will win the fight!

eHP is concrete. But DPS? How do you calculate that? We all know simply taking (Damage x RPM)/60 isn't going to give you your true DPS in combat. Have you factored in reloading in the middle of a fight? Cover that could block your shots? Headshot damage? Grenades? Other people firing at the same target? DOZENS of other factors.

I repeat: TTK isn't what makes the game more tactical. Feel free to argue otherwise. I'll give you likes if I agree.

Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type.

Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK?

I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on.

Ttyl, k.

Increasing TTK doesn't even begin compensate for not thinking, and seeing as you contradict that point in one of your later posts, saying that increasing TTK will have people losing/winning in the same way that they are now, I'm not going to respond to it.

Decreasing TTK absolutely means that less tactics are required. All I, and anyone else, need to absolutely trash on the majority of Dust's player base is a scanner, a prof'd out rifle, and some decent nanohives. At this point, I don't even bother with anything else, other than uplinks.

1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy.
2.Prefire your way to a kill (where you take aim before coming out from cover, and fire at literally the first possible instant or even before), then get back behind cover. This step takes about 1 second, or nearly 2 for a heavy.
3. Repeat 2, popping out from a different side
4. Do this until you get bored

The above works even with 5+ enemies coming at you from ~50M if they don't have scanners, because they simply can't react fast enough.

The game being about who sees who, and who gets the jump on who, is absolutely idiotic when we have access to scanners that are nearly impossible to avoid, and that scan a range larger than the rifles' effective engagement range.

Increasing TTK will fix this. In the above example, if it took, say, 2-3 seconds to drop a frame instead of <1 for a damage modded rifle, I would lose, because I was trying to fight multiple enemies alone, like an idiot.

What I meant in what you saw as a contradiction was that increasing TTK, as you guys want, at the very least, will not change what is happening right now, so why do it? It will only lengthen the time to kill people, which means games go for longer, so you take longer to earn the same amount of ISK you can earn right now.

You've painted a scenario for today's gameplay. Lets hypothesise about where increased TTK will take us.

1. Set up behind cover with various nanohives and scan the enemy.
2. Prefire your way to hitting the enemy.
3. Track the enemy as he leisurely strolls out of your fire, even though you've scanned him, even though you earned the kill, because he has insane HP.
4. Keep trying to kill the same person until you get bored.

The above doesn't work for 5+ enemies, because 5 of them, seeing you BEHIND COVER with nanohives, can ignore the fact that you've strategically positioned yourself because they have so much HP and there are five of them that they can simply walk up to you and kill you.

Whereas, and this is a contradiction on your part so I guess we're even, with LESS TTK, like you said, a person set up behind cover with nanohives can effectively shut down 5+ people from getting to him/her. Is that not because of tactical positioning?

1v5, they SHOULD be able to ignore my positioning and walk up and kill me. "Herp derp I have equipment and am behind cover" does not count as good strategic positioning. Good positions would be if I had two teammates behind different rocks forward and to either side, waiting to unleash crossfire when the 5 leave cover to come at what appears to be a lone merc. Long TTKs, giving time to react, will emphasize the importance of good positioning as I describe it. Shooting first should not guarantee the win. I should have to work with my team, not just set up shop on my own with an active scanner.

Cover is NOT important... That is bullshit... That is a very very small factor in situational awareness on the battefield..

No Gunfight in DUST occurs completely behind cover... there is no mechanic's int he game for it... it doesn't even make sense to want that for dust...

Long drawn out fights... where sometimes your bullet's feel useless are EXACTLY what people want...i miss fighting a heavy and saying "Screw it not worth the bullets" and running away.... thats what makes DUST different?

Dust isn't a place with complicated cities... and massive internal structures where Cover positions are constant... The map's aren't built like that... the terrain isn't built like that... the character movements aren't built like that...

STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS GAME INTO SOME COPY....

Take that crap to some other forum.

I've only played a few matches so far today, but I can't say I've noticed a significantly shorter TTK.

Although, my playstyle has evolved into turtle tactics so I only poke my head out every once in a while.

That alone is proof that the TTK has decreased.

If you were not dying faster, you wouldn't feel the need to turtle so much. It's a natural evolution of playstyle based on the demands of the environment you are a part of.

Of course, the first rock that started the avalanche fell when aim assist got buffed in 1.4 so that might be when you started to evolve in that direction. The improvements to hit detection are now compounding the need for a longer TTK.

Maybe I haven't played enough but I really don't notice all this about TTK going down since 1.4 or something. Is this really all everyone is putting down the problems of the game to? TTK? Three letters... Maybe it's because it's so easy to type.

Someone please explain to me how fixing TTK will do anything. How do we even begin to fix so abstract a concept as TTK?

I will subscribe to this thread and your opinions will be read, so prove me wrong. Go on.

Ttyl, k.

now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at.

if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger

Many of this game's unique and defining concepts rely on having a long (2+ second) TTK. Tactics take a back seat when getting the DPS on your opponent 0.5 second earlier will allow you to cut them down before they can react. Similarly, things like speed tanking and profile dampening are rendered less useful, because the time from being seen to dying has dropped sharply, to <1 second for many suits and <2 seconds for heavies. All that matters now is having more tank and more DPS than your opponent, and twitchier aim. This is what many shooters are, but it's not what I want Dust to be.

edit: Also, TTK is not even mildly abstract- it's quite concrete. EHP divided by DPS = TTK. Changing it is similarly easy: increase EHP, decrease damage, or do both.

This shows how little people understand how TTK affects an FPS, in reality it plays out in reverse. By the way, I'm not arguing for one or the other but they both design choices. One favours one type of player, the other favours a different type of player.

High TTK games (ie where you have lots of EHP compared to damage and die more slowly) favour players with superior eye hand coordination. Tracking a moving target to keep the damage on is a twitch skill, not a tactics skill. With high TTK if you get surprised by an enemy player you have time in which to engage your reflexes and turn an ambush around into a contest of movement and accuracy.

In general a high TTK favours players with good eye hand co-ordination and fast reaction times, bunnyhopping and strafing matter much more. This often, but not always means younger players or players who practice relentlessly.

Low TTK games (ie where you have low EHP and die quickly) favour players with superior map knowledge and sneaking skills. Given everyone dies instantly your main skill is not tracking, its making sure you shoot first and, if possible, make sure the other guy never gets a chance to return fire because odds are if he does you'll both die. Visibility and cover matter much more.

In general low TTK favours players with less genetically endowed prowess because they can use knowledge and experience to make up for their reflex shortcomings and their high reflex enemies are forced to move more cautiously like they do.

High TTK games also tend to be more high speed whereas low TTK games tend to move slower because being exposed usually equals dead.

Of course every game contains elements of both sides but there is usually a bias in any one particular game's design model. Both Dust and Unreal require twitch, eye hand co-ord, map knowledge and canny movement but the cocktail is different to say COD or PS2.

So Tl;dr you can prefer either type of game but make sure you REALLY understand what you're asking for.

This shows how little people understand how TTK affects an FPS, in reality it plays out in reverse. By the way, I'm not arguing for one or the other but they both design choices. One favours one type of player, the other favours a different type of player.

High TTK games (ie where you have lots of EHP compared to damage and die more slowly) favour players with superior eye hand coordination. Tracking a moving target to keep the damage on is a twitch skill, not a tactics skill. With high TTK if you get surprised by an enemy player you have time in which to engage your reflexes and turn an ambush around into a contest of movement and accuracy.

In general a high TTK favours players with good eye hand co-ordination and fast reaction times, bunnyhopping and strafing matter much more. This often, but not always means younger players or players who practice relentlessly.

Low TTK games (ie where you have low EHP and die quickly) favour players with superior map knowledge and sneaking skills. Given everyone dies instantly your main skill is not tracking, its making sure you shoot first and, if possible, make sure the other guy never gets a chance to return fire because odds are if he does you'll both die. Visibility and cover matter much more.

In general low TTK favours players with less genetically endowed prowess because they can use knowledge and experience to make up for their reflex shortcomings and their high reflex enemies are forced to move more cautiously like they do.

High TTK games also tend to be more high speed whereas low TTK games tend to move slower because being exposed usually equals dead.

So Tl;dr you can prefer either type of game but make sure you REALLY understand what you're asking for.

You are absolutely correct on the matter of TTK vs Player skill, but the point really is that, i don't feel like i am wearing a suit of armor anymore, even less so for my opponents.

Its not a lore thing though, offense has always outclassed defense throughout military history. You just need to remember you might be wearing super-future armour but the other guy is shooting at you with a super-future gun. That railgun firing a gravitically compacted anti-matter mini-nuke at you at Mach 12 is going to go through anything.

So, lore aside, its just a preference in style.

Preferably a game should stick to its original style, I'd be pissed if COD turned into a strafing shooter.

now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at.

if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger

"TTK" search on forums 3 days ago: 0 hits

"TTK" search today: Everybody

QQ train is always rollin

So you wan't stand there firing ultra weak bullets at each other from 30m away reloading twice to kill a guy?
Cover is important in ANY shooter where you can't shoot through walls! You don't need a cover system to use cover! And you shouldn't be able to run across a no mans land even as a heavy!

now this is just my view of things but at the moment the TTK has now become way to fast, that dust has become twitch shooter, iv reached the point where im getting killed before i know im getting shot at.

if this is road dust is going down so be it but thats not the type of game i wanted to play, i wanted length fun fights where same thinking and tackets beat who has the faster trigger finger

Really? Have you played COD, have you actually played COD, do you know how useless ckver is in COD? It takes 4 rounds to kill a guy in the open, it takes 6 rounds to kill a guy in cover. Here in DUST it takes 8bullets to kill a guy in the open, you can't kill a guy with an assault rifle if hemis behind cover!

You don't need a mechanic to let you take cover, to take cover! BLACK how no cover system, they just had waist high terrain that you could hide behind!

The maps are very cover centric, every corridor has cover at each end, there tonnes of waist high fences, on gantries, there are buildings, there are containers standed around the map. The game should not make you think oh he's not worth the effort, quite the opposite, it should be

Damn they've got a heavy squad, we are getting suppressed, there is no safe retreat, we need mechanised support

Not,

Oh they have a heavy, Im just gonna run across this empty field and escape!

I want every round that hits to feel like damage has been done, thats why the added the shield sounds in 1.4, you are meant to feel fragile, so that you don't have people running around like lunatics!

Just like i said to Wolfman this morning, it's overall a huge improvement. Rest is just side effects of better performance and requires number tweaking. My personal opinion here is that the 10% uprising buff to weapon damage is no longer needed (like a lot of people already said before 1.6) and the aim assist isnt required to be so efficient now that bullets actually seem to hit with no weird moments.

Sigh monkey..

This is so twitch shooter right now... I'm dropping 4-5 people consistently with one clip.. I've been playing these kind's of FPS's all my life... it benefit's my experience but it ruins DUST..

Most cover you take from old school FPS's can be shot through... as bullets will go through things IRL

This is fast TTK

And that's a tournament setting with some of the best players in the world and he still put them down like that... and trust me heaton is no fluke... that's a guy legitimate aiming for the head's and hitting accurately.

Cover and the entire way it works in DUST is... well... they don't know each other exist really... we have had to resort to "hiding" more as 1 person's bullets even without the ability to aim.. can put you down.

None of the map's are even really built with this idea... 16vs16 its hard to design map's with consistent cover in alll area's a fight could take place... and we aren't even at the player sizes they where shooting for of 32vs32.

Peaking out of cover with 10 people looking at you sure you die...or barely limp away. but one person is doing what 5-10 people used to.