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The AR - A neutral look - Mathematics included

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Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:46:00 - [1] - Quote -THREAD UNDER CONSTRUCTION PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING- Recently there have been no end of AR nerf threads. IGÇÖve found dubious maths in all of the ones that IGÇÖve seen so far, highly biased opinions (It kills me so it must be OP, etc), and are generally by people attempting to push their agenda. I am going to try and have a neutral stance. For those who may accuse me of being an AR user, I use the scrambler rifle. For those who accuse me of wanting the AR nerfed, I may well do should real maths indicate that. Now. We will begin by looking at the basic, standard assault rifle. The basic assault rifle does 34.0 damage per shot. It fires at a rate of 750 RPM. The DPS of this weapon, assuming every shot hits, is 425. It has a clip size of 60. It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. LetGÇÖs compare this to some other weapons, in a variety of different ways. [P1] DPS [P2] Range [P3] Recoil/Accuracy/Dispersion [P4] Clip size/Reload speed [P5] Additional factors [P6] Summary [P1] DPS: The DPS of the basic assault rifle is, as mentioned earlier, 425. LetGÇÖs compare it to a number of other weapons. Scrambler Rifle - Semiautomatic This is an excellent example of a weapon with which paper DPS doesnGÇÖt tell the full story. In terms of DPS, it is on par with the old TAR. It fires 72.0 damage shots at 705.8 RPM, with a clip size of 45. The DPS of this weapon is 847. Scrambler Assault Rifle There is no basic variant for this, so I have extrapolated based on the 5% damage increase from ADV to PRO. Damage per shot is 35.9. It fires at a rate of 705.8 RPM. 11.7 shots per second, doing 35.9 damage each equals a DPS of 422. Heavy Machine Gun Damage per shot is 18. It fires at a rate of 2000.0 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 33.3 shots per second, or 600 DPS. Submachine Gun Damage per shot is 23. It fires at a rate of 1000 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 16.3 shots per second, or 383 DPS. Mass Driver Damage per shot is 242, direct hit, or 116, splash hit. It fires at 60 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 1 shot per second, or 242 DPS direct, 116 DPS splash. Scrambler Pistol Damage per shot is 80. It fires at a rate of 400 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 6.33 shots per second, or 533 DPS. Notably, thereGÇÖs a 450% headshot multiplier on this weapon. That makes it significantly more effective when you can aim accurately. Laser Rifle Damage per shot is 17. Unfortunately, there is no rate of fire for this weapon and the damage does in fact scale as you fire longer, so itGÇÖs difficult to pin down the DPS of this weapon, which fluctuates. For side by side DPS: Assault Rifle425 Scrambler Rifle847 Assault Scrambler Rifle422 Mass Driver Direct242 Mass Driver Splash116 Heavy Machine Gun600 Submachine Gun383 Scrambler Pistol533 [P2] Range: Firstly, here is the source for this information: http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png This was compiled through testing, and IGÇÖm confident that it is accurate. Assault Rifle: Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m Semiautomatic Scrambler Rifle: Optimal Range - 50m Effective Range - 80m Longer ranged than the AR, by a good margin. Scrambler Assault Rifle: Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 80m Actually slightly longer falloff than the AR. Heavy Machine Gun: Optimal Range - 30m Effective Range - 45m Suffers more from dispersion at range than the actual range limitations. This will be covered later. Submachine Gun: Optimal Range - 20m Effective Range - 40m ItGÇÖs worth noting that this is a CQC sidearm with a high RoF precisely because itGÇÖs designed for spray and pray style fighting. As a sidearm, itGÇÖs naturally going to have less range. Mass Driver: Optimal + Effective Range isnGÇÖt really limited. The parabolic trajectory of the weaponGÇÖs shot is what affects this weaponGÇÖs range. Laser Rifle: Optimal Range - 70-80m Effective Range - 50-70m A more interesting case than most in terms of range. It should be noted that at close range this weapon suffers significantly.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:46:00 - [2] - Quote [P4] Clip size/Reload speed Assault Rifle: Clip size of 60. Fairly generous, takes a few seconds to fire off the entire thing. Fast reload. Overall, well-off in the clip size and reload department. Semiautomatic Scrambler Rifle: Clip size of 45. Very generous considering the semiautomatic nature and overheat mechanics. Fast reload. Very well-off for clip size and reload. Scrambler Assault Rifle: Clip size of 72. Combined with a slightly lower RoF than the AR, this allows it to fire for a longer period of time than the assault rifle. Heavy Machine Gun: Clip size of 425. Very large clip, but slow reload. Submachine Gun: Clip size of 80. Very fast reload. Pretty much 10/10 in this area. Scrambler Pistol: Limited clip size of 6-11. Good reload speed. Clip size is restrictive. Mass Driver: Limited clip size of 6. Low rate of fire means it lasts a while, but restrictive and ammo economy is poor. Reload time is averageish. [P5] Additional factors Assault Rifle: N/A. There isnGÇÖt really anything. Semiautomatic Scrambler Rife: Overheating mechanic. This alone balances the weapon - itGÇÖs a draconian penalty for overheating, but the trade-off is a powerful weapon if you use it right. Assault Scrambler Rifle: Overheating mechanic. It doesnGÇÖt really apply to the assault variant however, as it takes a clip and a half of constant firing to overheat it, which never happens in actual combat. Heavy Machine Gun: Overheating. ItGÇÖs not very significant, but itGÇÖs there. Submachine Gun: None. Scrambler Pistol: 450% headshot damage. Very powerful, if you can land the headshot. Mass Driver: Splash damage and parabolic trajectory of shots. The splash damage is very significant, and lets the MD beGÇª the MD, pretty much. Laser Rifle: More overheating. More damaging than the scrambler rifle overheat but more negatable. Damage increases the longer you fire it. This allows tricks like GÇÿpreheatingGÇÖ the laser on a rock before shooting people with it for high damage. This has the disadvantage of potentially alerting people if you shoot them before you have much damage output. [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:47:00 - [3] - Quote -accidentally missed P3, reserve post for fixing-
Synbot Expert Intervention Caldari State 85	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:58:00 - [4] - Quote I agree with you, it's not the DPS or the damage that needs to be nerfed. Just because it always kills you doesn't mean you should go rant around saying the damage needs to be nerfed. I am an assault rifle user, and the thing that I would say needs to change is that recoil like you said. It's a little bit too stable.
DildoMcnutz Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 188	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:10:00 - [5] - Quote I agree
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 912	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:13:00 - [6] - Quote I Find you DPS math sound, however.... Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m That, is rong. At least to my Knowledge. The AR's Effective range, according to ingame terms, is 168ish. Its Absolute is 250ish. That's the One thing I find a bit overkill. That, along with the fact that you went with on-paper DPS for a Semi weapon. DPS with the ScR depends upon the speed at which one can Spam R1/LMB. Quote: [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I have no argument with you thought process, however, the one thing which I think needs to be done to All weapons, except the breaches, is that they should have their 10% Bonus that they got in 1.1 rolled back. CCP probably Bump damage as to compensate somewhat for the fact that HD was shot to hell, but with decent HD, we should roll this back, because the TTK of prior was very desirable for fun, somewhat drawn-out firefights.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3257	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:22:00 - [7] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: I Find you DPS math sound, however.... Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m That, is rong. At least to my Knowledge. The AR's Effective range, according to ingame terms, is 168ish. Its Absolute is 250ish. That's the One thing I find a bit overkill. That, along with the fact that you went with on-paper DPS for a Semi weapon. DPS with the ScR depends upon the speed at which one can Spam R1/LMB. This is of course true for the scrambler rifle, and that goes further to mitigate the on paper high DPS. All of the statistics there are paper DPS - In a real combat situation, none of the weapons will achieve that, as they will miss. The ranges were sourced from here - I define effective range as the range where the damage dropoff curve levels out at a low damage, typically around 30%. That's because it's not really effective past that point. Quote: [P6] Conclusions Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I have no argument with you thought process, however, the one thing which I think needs to be done to All weapons, except the breaches, is that they should have their 10% Bonus that they got in 1.1 rolled back. CCP probably Bump damage as to compensate somewhat for the fact that HD was shot to hell, but with decent HD, we should roll this back, because the TTK of prior was very desirable for fun, somewhat drawn-out firefights.[/quote] The TTK is more of an over-arching issue across the entire game. The 10% buff could probably be rolled back fairly easily, but I'm not sure it would have a huge effect - the shorter TTK is more symptomatic of other things in 1.4, particularly aim assist. If longer TTK is desirable, then it'd certainly be a step in the right direction. It's not the only thing to be considered there though.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 913	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:28:00 - [8] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: I Find you DPS math sound, however.... Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m That, is rong. At least to my Knowledge. The AR's Effective range, according to ingame terms, is 168ish. Its Absolute is 250ish. That's the One thing I find a bit overkill. That, along with the fact that you went with on-paper DPS for a Semi weapon. DPS with the ScR depends upon the speed at which one can Spam R1/LMB. This is of course true for the scrambler rifle, and that goes further to mitigate the on paper high DPS. All of the statistics there are paper DPS - In a real combat situation, none of the weapons will achieve that, as they will miss. The ranges were sourced from here - I define effective range as the range where the damage dropoff curve levels out at a low damage, typically around 30%. That's because it's not really effective past that point. Quote: [P6] Conclusions Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I have no argument with you thought process, however, the one thing which I think needs to be done to All weapons, except the breaches, is that they should have their 10% Bonus that they got in 1.1 rolled back. CCP probably Bump damage as to compensate somewhat for the fact that HD was shot to hell, but with decent HD, we should roll this back, because the TTK of prior was very desirable for fun, somewhat drawn-out firefights. The TTK is more of an over-arching issue across the entire game. The 10% buff could probably be rolled back fairly easily, but I'm not sure it would have a huge effect - the shorter TTK is more symptomatic of other things in 1.4, particularly aim assist. If longer TTK is desirable, then it'd certainly be a step in the right direction. It's not the only thing to be considered there though.[/quote] Ahh, well I was speak of when the Damage stop Droping off, and remains at its minimal Level. Well, the TTK is an important aspect of balance, However, it my own thoughts on that. And, you know what, since you brought it up, I will say this. Buff Recoil/ Dispersion Growth over time. Right now, EVERY weapon is laser precise, and It shouldn't. I feel that Aim assist is fine, as its always less agrivating to die from the other guy hitting mor then just because the other guy could aim. Reticle=/=Spot Bullets will hit. That's the balance that needs to be preformed on Aim Assist.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1501	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:30:00 - [9] - Quote I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3259	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:37:00 - [10] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything.

Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1501	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:51:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything. The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs. Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3259	Posted - 2013.09.15 18:00:00 - [12] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything. The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs. Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP. The idea here is to make it so that it isn't necessarily better overall performance.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1501	Posted - 2013.09.15 18:13:00 - [13] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything. The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs. Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP. The idea here is to make it so that it isn't necessarily better overall performance. I'll try to rephrase - A jack of all trades weapon should have a higher fitting cost to counter the fact that it has no real weaknesses, as a higher cost would ease the heaps of damage mods or almost impenetrable tanks many AR fits can wield. I'd like to see some of the more specialized weapons be easier to fit than the AR, so a shotgunner can field a suit with a better tank on it to let it survive getting within range.
621311251521 3316 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.09.15 18:43:00 - [14] - Quote recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3263	Posted - 2013.09.15 20:43:00 - [15] - Quote 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. It actually fires plasma. The point is, the assault weapons currently do okay at everything and excel at damage application in a game where every other weapon is about trade-offs. This is about looking at ways to bring things in line.
Arc-08 Horizons' Edge Orion Empire 70	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:00:00 - [16] - Quote hey, could you do some math for me, i'm curious about the burst AR, and i'm wondering if it's actually under powered, or if it is just an extremely situational weapon oh and also, about some of the stuff you guys are saying, i would love to use another weapon varient, other than the plain old assault rifle, but i refuse to support the Caldari, or Amarr with my isk, by buying their weapons, i will only give my isk to gallente and minmatar, and considering the AR is gallente that is the weapon i use. i do have plasma cannon, but comon everybody knows it is really broken right now.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3263	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:10:00 - [17] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: hey, could you do some math for me, i'm curious about the burst AR, and i'm wondering if it's actually under powered, or if it is just an extremely situational weapon oh and also, about some of the stuff you guys are saying, i would love to use another weapon varient, other than the plain old assault rifle, but i refuse to support the Caldari, or Amarr with my isk, by buying their weapons, i will only give my isk to gallente and minmatar, and considering the AR is gallente that is the weapon i use. i do have plasma cannon, but comon everybody knows it is really broken right now. Sure. There isn't a standard burst assault rifle, but this number can be extrapolated because it's a 5% increase between tiers. This puts a standard burst rifle at 30.6 damage per shot. It fires approximately 14 shots per second for a total of 425 DPS. This is in fact identical to the standard assault rifle. The reason nobody uses the burst is linked to problems with the burst fire. The burst fire tends to be laggy and the hit detection on it is iffy, so frequently not all of the shots will hit. Also, the paper dps doesn't actually happen even if you land all of the shots because there's a delay between bursts, so while the burst will fire at the listed RPM, the delay reduces the overall DPS. There's also a tad bit more recoil on the burst than on the normal assault rifle, and the scope zooms in a little too much for the range of combat that the burst tends to do. Does that answer your question about the burst? I suspect the Combat Rifle (The Minmatar assault rifle) will be making an appearance in 1.5, so you may well be able to use that in future. Going off on a tangent a little, this brings up a slightly related point - There'll be a lot of various rifles soon, so it should be noted that they're going to need to be balanced against each other as well.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1147	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:40:00 - [18] - Quote I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof!
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3264	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:43:00 - [19] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof! What did this add to the discussion, exactly? Did you actually read the post or just see an AR thread and come to complain about it?
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1147	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:54:00 - [20] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: What did this add to the discussion, exactly? Did you actually read the post or just see an AR thread and come to complain about it? I'm dead serious, Arkena. I fully intend to skill into this weapon. In a matter of weeks, I'll be deadly proficient with it. My only remaining handicap will be my shoddy Scout suit. I'm a shotgunner at heart, but the AR is better. Hands down. Tried the same switch with the MD, but with far less success. I'm sincerely excited about smashing face at lessened disadvantage. Whether or not this weapon gets nerfed is no longer a concern of mine.

Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 241	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:55:00 - [21] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof! I had the same experience when I played on my friends old account that has only been acquiring passives with no investment in Ars with no skill allocated in anything (this was during 1.3) the Ar still ripped things apart, the sheer difference is astronomical, in fact it made me a little uneasy how much work I was doing not using the AR, and I know we both come from the scout camp of no previous Ar experience. So I can confirm that this is true as well, though I still won't be making the switch to the Ar regardless and I accept the competitive consequences of that choice by potential exclusion from PC.
Princeps Marcellus Expert Intervention Caldari State 211	Posted - 2013.09.15 22:55:00 - [22] - Quote Thank you, good sir. I agree with your opinions. Maybe it's my current distance from the game (haven't played for a good while) but those all seem to be solid opinions. If I may ask, isn't the beginning of the Laser Rifle's optimal located at 65 meters? I hear that number passed around sometimes. And I'm fairly sure that there's a massive damage falloff at the end of the LR's optimal range, which your post doesn't quite indicate. Of course, this stuff might've passed right over my head what with 1.4 coming in my absence. You'd be the more educated one in this case.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 117	Posted - 2013.09.15 23:50:00 - [23] - Quote quite well put OP, you won't here me disagree. 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. RL=/= good video game mechanics and seriously please ever one here go learn about physics, plasma, maybe a little heat transfer, and for the love of god some sense of ******* scale.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 242	Posted - 2013.09.15 23:55:00 - [24] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: quite well put OP, you won't here me disagree. 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. RL=/= good video game mechanics and seriously please ever one here go learn about physics, plasma, maybe a little heat transfer, and for the love of god some sense of ******* scale. It actually isn't a pure energy weapon as is subject to dispersion as well, the whole reason it travels so far is that the plasma is keep in shells, thus hybrid weapon, so it would have a kick to it, otherwise plasma the size of a bullet would not go past shotgun range. If if we are going for IRL the Ar should go no more than 15 meters or it has major kick.
Thurak1 Psygod9 184	Posted - 2013.09.15 23:57:00 - [25] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: quite well put OP, you won't here me disagree. 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. RL=/= good video game mechanics and seriously please ever one here go learn about physics, plasma, maybe a little heat transfer, and for the love of god some sense of ******* scale. If RL had any place in the video game the whole bunny hop thing would be pointless because keeping a weapon on target while jumping around would be nearly impossible. As far as the OP goes your conclusions seem correct its not really the DPS that is so OP but more its ability to reliabally apply the DPS that makes it really stand out. There should be something done either to all other weapons so they hit more often or the AR needs to be nerfed in some manner.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1074	Posted - 2013.09.16 00:02:00 - [26] - Quote I really..dont know what to say to AR nerf posts anymore. I feel the Scrambler rifle does take more skill,but its at least 50% more powerful. Nothing beats my Imperial SR,....
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2013.09.16 00:07:00 - [27] - Quote Been using Assault rifles since early closed beta, including AR, TAR and Burst AR (BAR?). Personally I'd prefer to use TAR and BAR since I like to play the medium-long range / anti-sniper game (Read: something else than spray and pray.) But currently I am just using the 'exile' Assault rifle. It's cheap and it deals fair amount of damage to even guys running around in proto gear. Sure I could use Duvolle, but it's pretty much an overkill. So yes, as an AR user I admit that the weapon is really overpowered. It's not the damage that is overpowered tough, its the range and accuracy. You can literally just aim the enemy from 50-60m and fire the weapon on full-auto and most bullets will still hit the target without any problems. There's really no reason to use TAR or BAR variants since normal AR outclasses them in pretty much every situation, sure TAR has longer effective range but DPS from that range is pathetic and mainly useful for softening enemies. (read: useless)
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1074	Posted - 2013.09.16 00:12:00 - [28] - Quote Kyy Seiska wrote: So yes, as an AR user I admit that the weapon is really overpowered. It's not the damage that is overpowered tough, its the range and accuracy. You can literally just aim the enemy from 50-60m and fire the weapon on full-auto and most bullets will still hit the target without any problems. YOU ARE RIGHT, the ''feeling'' the AR gives is the crazy precision it has at long ranges at full auto.In other FPS the full auto feature helps you at CQ and mid range,but at longer ranges small bursts of controlled fire are needed for the weapon to successfully hit. As it is,the AR's hit 80-95% of their shots even at max range. BUt this is Hit detection + aim assist that needs a fix, i dont think the AR needs a nerf thou...
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1040	Posted - 2013.09.16 04:01:00 - [29] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I think the DPS of the breach AR and the full auto should be swapped. the breach AR is garbage right now... low range, low fire rate, DPS. if the full auto AR had all else equal but the DPS changed to 340 and the Breach had everything the same except its dps was buffed to 425 (or 467 as i fimrly beleive the 10% was not caked into the weapons), this would go a long way toward balance.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1040	Posted - 2013.09.16 04:03:00 - [30] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: hgghyujh wrote: quite well put OP, you won't here me disagree. 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. RL=/= good video game mechanics and seriously please ever one here go learn about physics, plasma, maybe a little heat transfer, and for the love of god some sense of ******* scale. If RL had any place in the video game the whole bunny hop thing would be pointless because keeping a weapon on target while jumping around would be nearly impossible. As far as the OP goes your conclusions seem correct its not really the DPS that is so OP but more its ability to reliabally apply the DPS that makes it really stand out. There should be something done either to all other weapons so they hit more often or the AR needs to be nerfed in some manner. agreed.

D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1040	Posted - 2013.09.16 04:08:00 - [31] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything. The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs. Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP. A similiar conclsion I had in a recent post. was to nerf the price of guns and suits that were UP, so as to help soften the loss when yo get WTF pwn by an AR. which happens to my heavy suit alot.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1042	Posted - 2013.09.16 04:13:00 - [32] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof! Several others and I have posted several threads related to this advantages. we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.) others want to adjust the stats etc... while others just want ot add recoil. but one thing is certain. It is OP.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 779	Posted - 2013.09.16 04:20:00 - [33] - Quote Thank you for this well reasoned post. We need more like this.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders 1120	Posted - 2013.09.16 04:22:00 - [34] - Quote Ranges
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3287	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:07:00 - [35] - Quote Princeps Marcellus wrote: Thank you, good sir. I agree with your opinions. Maybe it's my current distance from the game (haven't played for a good while) but those all seem to be solid opinions. If I may ask, isn't the beginning of the Laser Rifle's optimal located at 65 meters? I hear that number passed around sometimes. And I'm fairly sure that there's a massive damage falloff at the end of the LR's optimal range, which your post doesn't quite indicate. Of course, this stuff might've passed right over my head what with 1.4 coming in my absence. You'd be the more educated one in this case. It actually appears to be 66m - I'll edit the OP to reflect this. And yes - there is a massive damage drop-off. I'll add that as well - It's a huge thing on the weapon, and it's something that can't be solved by simply nerfing the AR.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3288	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:15:00 - [36] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.) The problem with this is that it has a similarly extreme effect to what you wanted to do with the HMG - by nerfing practically everything about the weapon significantly, you will break it completely. It doesn't excel at DPS, contrary to popular belief, so nerfing that makes it a subpar damage dealer. If you nerf its range then perhaps it does lose some of its ability to apply damage but combined with a DPS nerf then it makes the weapon unviable. Particularly when you then go on and nerf the ammo economy. Oh, and I seem to recall you wanted significant recoil added.
Piraten Hovnoret No Tax Scrubs 61	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:16:00 - [37] - Quote Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that slows you to tank out you outfitt
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3288	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:17:00 - [38] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: A similiar conclsion I had in a recent post. was to nerf the price of guns and suits that were UP, so as to help soften the loss when yo get WTF pwn by an AR. which happens to my heavy suit alot. A superior solution would be to actually balance things so they're not UP. Also, you literally listed everything except the AR and medium frames in that thread, including a number of weapons (such as the SCR) which are certainly not UP.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3288	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:18:00 - [39] - Quote Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that slows you to tank out you outfitt Alright, because a number of people have mentioned this now I'm going to add another section on this.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 181	Posted - 2013.09.16 08:16:00 - [40] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I think the DPS of the breach AR and the full auto should be swapped. the breach AR is garbage right now... low range, low fire rate, DPS. if the full auto AR had all else equal but the DPS changed to 340 and the Breach had everything the same except its dps was buffed to 425 (or 467 as i fimrly beleive the 10% was not caked into the weapons), this would go a long way toward balance. Thats basicly what suggested in some other threads as well. Simply change the (DPS) stats of breach and assault (the breach should be the caldari mimic weapon and therefore have long range low dps). But I think when the GAR gets the Range of the breach by maintaining the DPS the AsCR needs a look a well as both weapons have quite similar dps. So the GAR would need a slight dps buff while keeping the damage per clip. Either a buff to Rof or a buff to Damage while reducing the Clipsize. Or the AsCR needs a DPS nerf as well.... edit The old damage (prior the 10% buff) for the Exile was 31 damage per shot so the 10% damage buff is already in the weapon stats ^^

General12912 Gallente Marine Corps Dark Taboo 27	Posted - 2013.09.16 10:23:00 - [41] - Quote Agreed. +1 thats all i really care about is that they dont nerf the raw factors.
Absolute Idiom II No Free Pass 709	Posted - 2013.09.16 12:41:00 - [42] - Quote A good thread.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1042	Posted - 2013.09.16 16:48:00 - [43] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [quote=D legendary hero] we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.) Quote: The problem with this is that it has a similarly extreme effect to what you wanted to do with the HMG - by nerfing practically everything about the weapon significantly, you will break it completely. This is exactly what happened to the flaylock. D. damage nerf, splash damage nerf, splash radius nerf (radius to a splash weapon is like range to a hit scan weapon) and ammo nerf...lol Quote: It doesn't excel at DPS, contrary to popular belief, so nerfing that makes it a subpar damage dealer. If you nerf its range then perhaps it does lose some of its ability to apply damage but combined with a DPS nerf then it makes the weapon unviable. Particularly when you then go on and nerf the ammo economy. Oh, and I seem to recall you wanted significant recoil added. My problem with it, is not only what i mentioned in my OP of the other post. but, that it renders all other ARs practically useless. full auto AR > breach why? marginally lower damage per shot, higher range, higher fire rate, better hip fire, higher dps [467>340] full auto AR > burst. why? dps is much lower. due to the time between bursts. horrible at hipfire, and mediocre at range full auto > TAC. why? tact is still pretty decent. but, no where near as effective as the full auto at close -mid range encounters. dps is pretty pathetic comparably. if the full auto gets its dps switched with the breach AR but the other stats remain the same it would be ok. another suggestion i liked, was to keep everything the same but increase the CPU/PG to a litter higher than the scrambler rifle. making it harder to tank with them. I mean right now a std caldari medium frame can tank shield extenders and armor plates, use a GEK have an adv SMG, grenades and drop uplinks. amassing 700+ ehp. the idea is if your OFFense is going to be really good, then your DEFense should be weak. having both the best offense and the best defense is OP in and of itself.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1042	Posted - 2013.09.16 17:04:00 - [44] - Quote Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3315	Posted - 2013.09.16 18:52:00 - [45] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: ThatGÇÖs basicly what suggested in some other threads as well. Simply change the (DPS) stats if breach and assault (thhe breach should be the caldari mimic weapon and therefore have long range low dps. But I think when the GAR gets the Range of the breach by maintaining the DPS the AsCR needs a look a well as both weapons have quite similar dps. So the GAR would need a slighty dps buff while keeping the damage per clip. Either a buff to Rof or a buff to Damage while reducing the Clipsize. Or the AsCR needs a DPS nerf as wellGÇª. edit The old damage (prior the 10% buff) for the Exile was 31 damage per shot so the 10% damage buff is already in the weapon stats. IGÇÖm a little baffled as to what youGÇÖre trying to say here. If youGÇÖre swapping the DPS stats of the breach and assault rifles, thatGÇÖs a significant nerf to the assault variant. Yet then you go on to talk about buffing the GARGÇÖs DPS? I assume youGÇÖre trying to think of the necessary differences between racial weapons. ThatGÇÖs certainly a necessary consideration GÇô The ASCR and AR are currently very similar, with less than a few percent difference in DPS and range. Addressing the idea of swapping the DPS stats GÇô Straight out reducing the DPS of the assault rifle isnGÇÖt a very good idea. As seen in the statistics in the OP, the damage output of the weapon is similar to a number of other weapons, including sidearms. I understand it has a better damage application than those GÇô thatGÇÖs what I would suggest reducing, if anything, but the damage output isnGÇÖt notably higher than any other weapon. If the damage were to be nerfed, the archetype of short range high damage weaponry canGÇÖt be fulfilled by the assault rifle. To fit that archetype better, it would be a better idea to reduce the damage applicationof the assault rifle. Of course, if you simply swapped the stats then the breach could be a good deal closer to that ideal, but that hardly fits with what itGÇÖs meant to be GÇô A Caldari mimic, long range, low dps. I have to say I quite like the idea of a lower clip size on the GAR, though. Perhaps if the ranges of the breach and assault rifles were swapped, then that would work. I personally dislike that solution as I see hard limiting mechanics on accuracy as bad mechanics (If youGÇÖre completely on target, then you should hit the target GÇô thatGÇÖs why I advocate making it harder to be on target) but it would certainly work. But bear in mind that bringing down the range that much brings the AR well into sidearm territory for ranges GÇô The scrambler pistol can outdps it significantly in that range, vastly more so if it scores headshots, as just one example. The ASCR has to be nerfed equally with the GAR, yes, or itGÇÖll simply replace the AR. The only real reason the AR is seen more often is because of more frequent SP allocation and easier access. In this case, the damage application is acceptable for the theme of the weapon, but the DPS would be too high. To summarise: 1.The breach wouldnGÇÖt fit the Caldari mimic ideal if the DPS was switched GÇô itGÇÖs much closer to the Gallente ideal. If the ranges were swapped, that would work better thematically. 2.Bringing down the range significantly would crush the current damage application advantage that the AR has GÇô but when pushed into sidearm range, the current DPS is outmatched significantly by most weapons in that range. Contrary to popular belief, as I hope I demonstrated in the OP, the DPS on the AR is not that stellar. 3.The ASCR must also be considered, as you rightly said (Unless IGÇÖm misinterpreting your post). This is as much of a general points post as a response to your post tbh, because I was a little confused as to your initial viewpoint so I went off on a number of tangents.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3316	Posted - 2013.09.16 19:14:00 - [46] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [quote=D legendary hero] we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.) Quote: The problem with this is that it has a similarly extreme effect to what you wanted to do with the HMG - by nerfing practically everything about the weapon significantly, you will break it completely. This is exactly what happened to the flaylock. D. damage nerf, splash damage nerf, splash radius nerf (radius to a splash weapon is like range to a hit scan weapon) and ammo nerf...lol Quote: It doesn't excel at DPS, contrary to popular belief, so nerfing that makes it a subpar damage dealer. If you nerf its range then perhaps it does lose some of its ability to apply damage but combined with a DPS nerf then it makes the weapon unviable. Particularly when you then go on and nerf the ammo economy. Oh, and I seem to recall you wanted significant recoil added. My problem with it, is not only what i mentioned in my OP of the other post. but, that it renders all other ARs practically useless. full auto AR > breach why? marginally lower damage per shot, higher range, higher fire rate, better hip fire, higher dps [467>340] full auto AR > burst. why? dps is much lower. due to the time between bursts. horrible at hipfire, and mediocre at range full auto > TAC. why? tact is still pretty decent. but, no where near as effective as the full auto at close -mid range encounters. dps is pretty pathetic comparably. if the full auto gets its dps switched with the breach AR but the other stats remain the same it would be ok. another suggestion i liked, was to keep everything the same but increase the CPU/PG to a litter higher than the scrambler rifle. making it harder to tank with them. I mean right now a std caldari medium frame can tank shield extenders and armor plates, use a GEK have an adv SMG, grenades and drop uplinks. amassing 700+ ehp. the idea is if your OFFense is going to be really good, then your DEFense should be weak. having both the best offense and the best defense is OP in and of itself. Firstly, on your alleged STD Caldari medium frame fit - That's impossible. Even using stable drop uplinks, maxed skills, and a number of other resource cuts you can't come remotely close to fitting that on a standard suit. Even on an advanced frame you'd struggle to get those stats, at least without having a ton of non-repping armour deadweight. I'm glad to see that you've realised that such a multi-faceted and heavy nerf would break another weapon. However, I'd really like to encourage you to look at other things than simple raw DPS. As you should understand as an HMG user, other factors such as dispersion can significantly affect weaponry, and that's what I'd advocate for the assault rifle. The problem with the burst and breach ARs is less that the fully automatic variant overshadows them and more that they're simply bad. The TAR is still good in the right hands - fulfilling its role quite well as a longer ranged variant. The burst mode of fire is simply terrible, as it's a draconian way of moderating your firing so you have much less control over it, while you do less damage per shot. Overall, the fire rate is also less, as though the full RPM takes effect during the burst, there's a forced break between the bursts. The breach suffers from low rate of fire troubles in its apparently CQC role as well as its DPS. Bear in mind that even were the DPS values to be swapped, the breach would still suffer as it's forced into ranges where it's out damaged, while not having any flexibility - the thing that the AR is meant to specialise in, as quaint as that sounds. This ends up meaning it's not tactically viable. I reiterate - The AR, at least in its current incarnation, is meant to be a jack of all trades. That's not achieved by nerfing the damage output - the damage output is on par with other weapons of its type. The main reason it excels is because of its strong ability to apply that damage.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3316	Posted - 2013.09.16 19:15:00 - [47] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. The fittings module that I'm typing up has yet to draw conclusion that the AR is much better than other weapons of its type, apart from the scrambler rifle.
nukel head Knights of No Republic The Superpowers 68	Posted - 2013.09.16 19:41:00 - [48] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shotty GoBang wrote: I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof! What did this add to the discussion, exactly? Did you actually read the post or just see an AR thread and come to complain about it? With a name like Shotty GoBang, they are clearly an unbiased researcher...
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1042	Posted - 2013.09.16 20:13:00 - [49] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Firstly, on your alleged STD Caldari medium frame fit - That's impossible. Even using stable drop uplinks, maxed skills, and a number of other resource cuts you can't come remotely close to fitting that on a standard suit. Even on an advanced frame you'd struggle to get those stats, at least without having a ton of non-repping armour deadweight. I'm glad to see that you've realised that such a multi-faceted and heavy nerf would break another weapon. However, I'd really like to encourage you to look at other things than simple raw DPS. As you should understand as an HMG user, other factors such as dispersion can significantly affect weaponry, and that's what I'd advocate for the assault rifle. The problem with the burst and breach ARs is less that the fully automatic variant overshadows them and more that they're simply bad. The TAR is still good in the right hands - fulfilling its role quite well as a longer ranged variant. The burst mode of fire is simply terrible, as it's a draconian way of moderating your firing so you have much less control over it, while you do less damage per shot. Overall, the fire rate is also less, as though the full RPM takes effect during the burst, there's a forced break between the bursts. The breach suffers from low rate of fire troubles in its apparently CQC role as well as its DPS. Bear in mind that even were the DPS values to be swapped, the breach would still suffer as it's forced into ranges where it's out damaged, while not having any flexibility - the thing that the AR is meant to specialise in, as quaint as that sounds. This ends up meaning it's not tactically viable. I reiterate - The AR, at least in its current incarnation, is meant to be a jack of all trades. That's not achieved by nerfing the damage output - the damage output is on par with other weapons of its type. The main reason it excels is because of its strong ability to apply that damage. fitting I can fit, that on a caldari medium frame, but even without the drop up link, you can fit nano hives and still have rediculous ehp and an AR. i need to find the dropsuit tester program that guy made so i can prove it. but, ive done it. you gotta admit the CPU/PG for ARs are conducive to almost any playtyle imaginable. weapon diversity is the key I used to think you were an AR noob, but I was wrong. the threads were normally cluttered with haters... so it was hard to pay much attention. Although, this makes sense, my ultimate goal is to get the weapon diversity to chromosome level. Unlike you, alot of people who use only AR only understand what the AR is and does, so when another weapon does its job well, its deemed OP and then over nerfed. look at the HMG that was nerfed in range (not including sharpshooter), accuracy (the dispersion after chromosome was drastically increased) and had its damage per shot reduced to 12. or the flaylock (i continue to mention it because it is fresh in everyone's mind). It did its job very well in CQC. the only thing that should have been nerfed was its fire rate. the radius was still crappy. now no one uses it. no one uses MD competivtively in PC. even if even if the AR is rebalanced with itself. that doesn't garuntee that weapon diversity will return. because alot of weapons are still UP in comparison. SP wise it costs you more to invest in other weapons. (lvl 4 for shotguns). and they get you no results even closely related to the GAR. i mean, you neeed level 5 weaponry to get HMGs, then you need heavy weapon level 3. then you need proficiency on your HMG before you can start seeing any real damage. I have complex damage mods on my HMGs, and its just not as good as a GAR. [not including the 10%] HMG dps = 600 * .65 = 390 dps with dispersion Galente AR dps= 425 .95 = 403.75 with dispersion this is a major problem. and comparatively, i only really see ARs, then Ascr, scramblers (rarer now), Lazers (very few), conclusion. weapon diversity is *** poor, especially in PC an approach to AR nerf/rebalance needs to consider other weapons as well nerfing other weapons was used in the past to keep them balanced against the AR. same should hold true of the AR
Arc-08 Horizons' Edge Orion Empire 75	Posted - 2013.09.16 21:20:00 - [50] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [quote=D legendary hero] we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.) Quote: The problem with this is that it has a similarly extreme effect to what you wanted to do with the HMG - by nerfing practically everything about the weapon significantly, you will break it completely. This is exactly what happened to the flaylock. D. damage nerf, splash damage nerf, splash radius nerf (radius to a splash weapon is like range to a hit scan weapon) and ammo nerf...lol Quote: It doesn't excel at DPS, contrary to popular belief, so nerfing that makes it a subpar damage dealer. If you nerf its range then perhaps it does lose some of its ability to apply damage but combined with a DPS nerf then it makes the weapon unviable. Particularly when you then go on and nerf the ammo economy. Oh, and I seem to recall you wanted significant recoil added. My problem with it, is not only what i mentioned in my OP of the other post. but, that it renders all other ARs practically useless. full auto AR > breach why? marginally lower damage per shot, higher range, higher fire rate, better hip fire, higher dps [467>340] full auto AR > burst. why? dps is much lower. due to the time between bursts. horrible at hipfire, and mediocre at range full auto > TAC. why? tact is still pretty decent. but, no where near as effective as the full auto at close -mid range encounters. dps is pretty pathetic comparably. if the full auto gets its dps switched with the breach AR but the other stats remain the same it would be ok. another suggestion i liked, was to keep everything the same but increase the CPU/PG to a litter higher than the scrambler rifle. making it harder to tank with them. I mean right now a std caldari medium frame can tank shield extenders and armor plates, use a GEK have an adv SMG, grenades and drop uplinks. amassing 700+ ehp. the idea is if your OFFense is going to be really good, then your DEFense should be weak. having both the best offense and the best defense is OP in and of itself. but if CCP just switched the regular assault rifle, to the breach assault rifle, people would just buy the breach, if you already have a duvolle you have the sp to go and buy a breach? i'm guessing this is not what you meant by switching the DPS, but could you please clarify. (otherwise it is almost the same assault rifle with a different name.)

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3317	Posted - 2013.09.16 21:23:00 - [51] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: but if CCP just switched the regular assault rifle, to the breach assault rifle, people would just buy the breach, if you already have a duvolle you have the sp to go and buy a breach? i'm guessing this is not what you meant by switching the DPS, but could you please clarify. (otherwise it is almost the same assault rifle with a different name.) The breach assault rifle has reduced range and clip size compared to the normal assault rifle. The tiny clip would be damning on its own tbh, but there are a host of other issues. Incidentally, the tiny clip does not translate well to a higher RoF, and neither does the massive clip to a low rate of fire, at least not if you like reasonable amounts of fire time.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1043	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:21:00 - [52] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: but if CCP just switched the regular assault rifle, to the breach assault rifle, people would just buy the breach, if you already have a duvolle you have the sp to go and buy a breach? i'm guessing this is not what you meant by switching the DPS, but could you please clarify. (otherwise it is almost the same assault rifle with a different name.) increase the breaches damage per shot so that its dps becomes that of the GAR. per shot damage for the breach should be 63.5. (remember the fire rate is 400) the GAR on the other hand should have a damage per shot of 27.5. (remember fire rate is 750) that way GAR = high fire rate low damage and breach = low fire rate high damage
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 923	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:43:00 - [53] - Quote Roll back the 10% weapon buff that came in uprising. Bring back old aim assist, pre hotfix. Buff dispersion and recoil on everything. Bam. Fished.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1043	Posted - 2013.09.17 02:24:00 - [54] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Roll back the 10% weapon buff that came in uprising. Bring back old aim assist, pre hotfix. Buff dispersion and recoil on everything. Bam. Fished. BAM the only "bam" i want to hear is that of the nerf bat totally recking the GAR. why? why do I and just about every other specialty weapon user out there want this? 1. (bonus) it happened to all the specialty weapons that didn't already suck. 2. without the GAR many will be forced to use breach, burst and TAC rilfes which although pretty horrible by themselves with damage mods and skill can be come competitive. One thing we all must realize about the nerfing cycle. people who love to run FOTM gear, will always search for something that is OP or RUMERED to be OP. never forget people attempted to spam MD and claimed them OP. they 'delcared it OP, in the name of the FOTM'. but because the MD was not in fact OP, even when people spammed it they still lost games miserablely even in full proto. since the update hit detection has improved which actually made MD more of a viable weapon (because they were horrible broke before). yet, everyone uses AR, because they saw that it is the new FOTM. long story short. people are using ARs because they are the FOTM. When they are nered, people who seek to exploit glitches will always be in the game, and search for the FOTM. but one thing is certian. nerfing the GAR will make it harder to find and exploit the next FOTMG. why? they will need more SP for it, and need to diversify in weaponry beofre they can finda new spammable weapon. from the dust of chromosome i was born In chromosome the very first weapon i used was the AR, with a milita minmintar suit. the very first enemy i faced was an amarr heavy with 100 shield and 600 armor. I strafed back and forth and sprayed until he was pwnd. i thought that was due to my skill. everyone wants to think that taking on an enemy with higher hp and winning means your a better player...etc. soon, when I became a heavy did i realize just how powerful the AR was, and how gimped my suit was. at least my weapon worked though.... until uprising. but, in chromosome ARs were pwning people just as hard. difference was, HMGs worked, MD worked, lazers worked, snipers worked, flux had larger range and full damage at those ranges! once uprising hit, with the nerfing of everything that wasn't an Ar and assault suit, successively, the gap between being a better weapon and being completely OP widened. now, the only usab;e weapon again is the AR. its been 5 months since chromosome. why is the AR not balanced already? I mean, we have nerfed some weapons twice even (forges do less to armor now, and had their range cut)! false hope many individuals that beleive in balance such as the OP, black st4r, myself and others have posted about this issue. but not a single nerf AR thread, or 'rebalance' ar thread has been commented on by CCP dev's. Our hope is raised when they comment on threads about nerfing other guns, because 'perhaps they will hear our voice too'. but, then they don't and end up nerfing something else that isn't an AR. the next gun that people will nerf is the forgun. i already hear the complaints... then, whats next Scr? nova knives? pilot suits are going to be prenerfed then nerfed again.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3318	Posted - 2013.09.17 06:19:00 - [55] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Roll back the 10% weapon buff that came in uprising. Bring back old aim assist, pre hotfix. Buff dispersion and recoil on everything. Bam. Fished. Fished?
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps Dark Taboo 27	Posted - 2013.09.17 10:02:00 - [56] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. 'D,' it is clear you have an agenda. What weapon do you specialize in?
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 182	Posted - 2013.09.17 10:11:00 - [57] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: ThatGÇÖs basicly what suggested in some other threads as well. Simply change the (DPS) stats if breach and assault (thhe breach should be the caldari mimic weapon and therefore have long range low dps. But I think when the GAR gets the Range of the breach by maintaining the DPS the AsCR needs a look a well as both weapons have quite similar dps. So the GAR would need a slighty dps buff while keeping the damage per clip. Either a buff to Rof or a buff to Damage while reducing the Clipsize. Or the AsCR needs a DPS nerf as wellGÇª. edit The old damage (prior the 10% buff) for the Exile was 31 damage per shot so the 10% damage buff is already in the weapon stats. IGÇÖm a little baffled as to what youGÇÖre trying to say here. If youGÇÖre swapping the DPS stats of the breach and assault rifles, thatGÇÖs a significant nerf to the assault variant. Yet then you go on to talk about buffing the GARGÇÖs DPS? I assume youGÇÖre trying to think of the necessary differences between racial weapons. ThatGÇÖs certainly a necessary consideration GÇô The ASCR and AR are currently very similar, with less than a few percent difference in DPS and range. Addressing the idea of swapping the DPS stats GÇô Straight out reducing the DPS of the assault rifle isnGÇÖt a very good idea. As seen in the statistics in the OP, the damage output of the weapon is similar to a number of other weapons, including sidearms. I understand it has a better damage application than those GÇô thatGÇÖs what I would suggest reducing, if anything, but the damage output isnGÇÖt notably higher than any other weapon. If the damage were to be nerfed, the archetype of short range high damage weaponry canGÇÖt be fulfilled by the assault rifle. To fit that archetype better, it would be a better idea to reduce the damage applicationof the assault rifle. Of course, if you simply swapped the stats then the breach could be a good deal closer to that ideal, but that hardly fits with what itGÇÖs meant to be GÇô A Caldari mimic, long range, low dps. I have to say I quite like the idea of a lower clip size on the GAR, though. Perhaps if the ranges of the breach and assault rifles were swapped, then that would work. I personally dislike that solution as I see hard limiting mechanics on accuracy as bad mechanics (If youGÇÖre completely on target, then you should hit the target GÇô thatGÇÖs why I advocate making it harder to be on target) but it would certainly work. But bear in mind that bringing down the range that much brings the AR well into sidearm territory for ranges GÇô The scrambler pistol can outdps it significantly in that range, vastly more so if it scores headshots, as just one example. The ASCR has to be nerfed equally with the GAR, yes, or itGÇÖll simply replace the AR. The only real reason the AR is seen more often is because of more frequent SP allocation and easier access. In this case, the damage application is acceptable for the theme of the weapon, but the DPS would be too high. To summarise: 1.The breach wouldnGÇÖt fit the Caldari mimic ideal if the DPS was switched GÇô itGÇÖs much closer to the Gallente ideal. If the ranges were swapped, that would work better thematically. 2.Bringing down the range significantly would crush the current damage application advantage that the AR has GÇô but when pushed into sidearm range, the current DPS is outmatched significantly by most weapons in that range. Contrary to popular belief, as I hope I demonstrated in the OP, the DPS on the AR is not that stellar. 3.The ASCR must also be considered, as you rightly said (Unless IGÇÖm misinterpreting your post). This is as much of a general points post as a response to your post tbh, because I was a little confused as to your initial viewpoint so I went off on a number of tangents. +ähm after rereading I agree I guess I was a bit confused ^^. So to summerize basicly I want a GAR that has the Range of the Breach while keeping (or slighly buffing the DPS) and I want a breach with the current DPS but the Range of the current GAR. Man I really hate those mimic weapons ^^.
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps Dark Taboo 27	Posted - 2013.09.17 10:29:00 - [58] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: ThatGÇÖs basicly what suggested in some other threads as well. Simply change the (DPS) stats if breach and assault (thhe breach should be the caldari mimic weapon and therefore have long range low dps. But I think when the GAR gets the Range of the breach by maintaining the DPS the AsCR needs a look a well as both weapons have quite similar dps. So the GAR would need a slighty dps buff while keeping the damage per clip. Either a buff to Rof or a buff to Damage while reducing the Clipsize. Or the AsCR needs a DPS nerf as wellGÇª. edit The old damage (prior the 10% buff) for the Exile was 31 damage per shot so the 10% damage buff is already in the weapon stats. IGÇÖm a little baffled as to what youGÇÖre trying to say here. If youGÇÖre swapping the DPS stats of the breach and assault rifles, thatGÇÖs a significant nerf to the assault variant. Yet then you go on to talk about buffing the GARGÇÖs DPS? I assume youGÇÖre trying to think of the necessary differences between racial weapons. ThatGÇÖs certainly a necessary consideration GÇô The ASCR and AR are currently very similar, with less than a few percent difference in DPS and range. Addressing the idea of swapping the DPS stats GÇô Straight out reducing the DPS of the assault rifle isnGÇÖt a very good idea. As seen in the statistics in the OP, the damage output of the weapon is similar to a number of other weapons, including sidearms. I understand it has a better damage application than those GÇô thatGÇÖs what I would suggest reducing, if anything, but the damage output isnGÇÖt notably higher than any other weapon. If the damage were to be nerfed, the archetype of short range high damage weaponry canGÇÖt be fulfilled by the assault rifle. To fit that archetype better, it would be a better idea to reduce the damage applicationof the assault rifle. Of course, if you simply swapped the stats then the breach could be a good deal closer to that ideal, but that hardly fits with what itGÇÖs meant to be GÇô A Caldari mimic, long range, low dps. I have to say I quite like the idea of a lower clip size on the GAR, though. Perhaps if the ranges of the breach and assault rifles were swapped, then that would work. I personally dislike that solution as I see hard limiting mechanics on accuracy as bad mechanics (If youGÇÖre completely on target, then you should hit the target GÇô thatGÇÖs why I advocate making it harder to be on target) but it would certainly work. But bear in mind that bringing down the range that much brings the AR well into sidearm territory for ranges GÇô The scrambler pistol can outdps it significantly in that range, vastly more so if it scores headshots, as just one example. The ASCR has to be nerfed equally with the GAR, yes, or itGÇÖll simply replace the AR. The only real reason the AR is seen more often is because of more frequent SP allocation and easier access. In this case, the damage application is acceptable for the theme of the weapon, but the DPS would be too high. To summarise: 1.The breach wouldnGÇÖt fit the Caldari mimic ideal if the DPS was switched GÇô itGÇÖs much closer to the Gallente ideal. If the ranges were swapped, that would work better thematically. 2.Bringing down the range significantly would crush the current damage application advantage that the AR has GÇô but when pushed into sidearm range, the current DPS is outmatched significantly by most weapons in that range. Contrary to popular belief, as I hope I demonstrated in the OP, the DPS on the AR is not that stellar. 3.The ASCR must also be considered, as you rightly said (Unless IGÇÖm misinterpreting your post). This is as much of a general points post as a response to your post tbh, because I was a little confused as to your initial viewpoint so I went off on a number of tangents. +ähm after rereading I agree I guess I was a bit confused ^^. So to summerize basicly I want a GAR that has the Range of the Breach while keeping (or slighly buffing the DPS) and I want a breach with the current DPS but the Range of the current GAR. Man I really hate those mimic weapons ^^. Me too man, me too.
Funkmaster Whale Daedali Inc. 607	Posted - 2013.09.17 10:55:00 - [59] - Quote IMO CCP needs to release other weapon variants to compete with the AR instead of fidgeting with numbers right now. I know it's not feasible at the moment, but it would make more sense to release the variants then start giving each weapon an according niche. Right now you're not left with many options in terms of "Assault" weapons. It's either the AR or the ScR. Even the variants of those are mostly crap (except TAC and Assault ScR). I'm an AR user and honestly don't care what they do with the weapon because people will still complain and whine on the forums about every little thing that kills them. ARs will still reign even if they nerf them and I bet you the complaints will go from "Nerf the AR!" to "Im still dying! Nerf it again!"
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1044	Posted - 2013.09.17 11:41:00 - [60] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: IMO CCP needs to release other weapon variants to compete with the AR instead of fidgeting with numbers right now. I know it's not feasible at the moment, but it would make more sense to release the variants then start giving each weapon an according niche. Right now you're not left with many options in terms of "Assault" weapons. It's either the AR or the ScR. Even the variants of those are mostly crap (except TAC and Assault ScR). I'm an AR user and honestly don't care what they do with the weapon because people will still complain and whine on the forums about every little thing that kills them. ARs will still reign even if they nerf them and I bet you the complaints will go from "Nerf the AR!" to "Im still dying! Nerf it again!" your not left with many Heavy weapons options either. there is only one HMG... and its the HMG the fastest race has put on the slowest races suit...

D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1044	Posted - 2013.09.17 11:43:00 - [61] - Quote General12912 wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. 'D,' it is clear you have an agenda. What weapon do you specialize in? If you as me, at the rate things are getting nerfed, every weapon may be quite useless. My problem is that CCP seems to be resorting to nerfing. Yet, as it has proven time and time again, nerfing just makes another weapon 'OP,' so to speak. I use ARs, Scr, Ascr. can't use anything else. everything else I could use is called a noob weapon and/or is nerfed... so...
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1203	Posted - 2013.09.17 11:52:00 - [62] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: General12912 wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. 'D,' it is clear you have an agenda. What weapon do you specialize in? If you as me, at the rate things are getting nerfed, every weapon may be quite useless. My problem is that CCP seems to be resorting to nerfing. Yet, as it has proven time and time again, nerfing just makes another weapon 'OP,' so to speak. I use ARs, Scr, Ascr. can't use anything else. everything else I could use is called a noob weapon and/or is nerfed... so... ... in fairness i say any weapon you use is a noob weapon... im not bias
PADDEHATPIGEN BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 56	Posted - 2013.09.17 12:18:00 - [63] - Quote YEAH CCP. listhen to the cry babys, make the full auto AR's just as useless as you did whit the rest of the AR's. STOP NERFING MY WAEPONS... FIX the tactial AR's, make it able to hit something, and give it back its 36 round mag. there was never a problem whit this weapon other then the ROF could be abused whit modded controllers and programeble keybords, but still you had to ruin it whit extreme kick, extreme dispersion, and lowewr the clip sice to 18 rounds... FIX the breach AR's, they are utterly USELESS, you need to fire 2 full clips into someone to kill them now. FIX the burst AR's this is even worse, its just as hard to hit anything whit this rifle as it is whit the tac AR's and on top of that it does damagd like the breach AR's, THAT SUCKS... Modded controllers can also be used whit the SCR and it makes it an OP BEAST, try it... I can get of quite a few shots before it overheats, as the overheat mecanism is based on time and NOT rounds fired. You even stated that both the SCR and the ASCR dont have recoil, dont have alot of dispersion, they have higher dps, and more rounds in a clip, but you still want to nerf the AR's. WTF.
semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 930	Posted - 2013.09.17 13:40:00 - [64] - Quote Honestly the burst rifle needs its 7 rounds burst back instead of the 3 round burst it was nerfed to.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 315	Posted - 2013.09.17 14:29:00 - [65] - Quote After reading OP's analysis of the weapons I see the problem. AR's are not suffering as much as they used to before the fix therefore they should operate more in that manner. My conclusion in the matter is that the AR is in need of a buff, or at least not all the attention it has been getting. The scramblers are easily the more destructive weapon now and FOTM should now be the scrambler rifles. Those of you FOTMing at the mouth for a fix to their playstyle should be aware that the scrambler is more effective than the AR vs shields and still OP against suits without a good deal of armor.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 315	Posted - 2013.09.17 14:34:00 - [66] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: General12912 wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. 'D,' it is clear you have an agenda. What weapon do you specialize in? If you as me, at the rate things are getting nerfed, every weapon may be quite useless. My problem is that CCP seems to be resorting to nerfing. Yet, as it has proven time and time again, nerfing just makes another weapon 'OP,' so to speak. I use ARs, Scr, Ascr. can't use anything else. everything else I could use is called a noob weapon and/or is nerfed... so... So if it is proto, it is still noob? Come on, each weapon is useful for one role or another, it isn't worth worrying about the noobs complaining about boundless weapons. They are OP more because of skill or SP than anything else.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 364	Posted - 2013.09.17 15:30:00 - [67] - Quote i think ive the noticed galente research facility map made wearing full proto useless.. so many ambush points.. on that map and there r ambush points above the ambush points... killzones and such.... any ways i just say somthing about nerfing an officer weapon? that is one of the worst ideas i have ever heard... i think shotgun needs a better grouping of the shots... but still its very effective in cqc... just cant do hardly anything at range... but i think there should be a new variant that gets its damage decreased for better range... and from multiple battles ive been in lately the imperial scrambler rifle has to be one of the most devastating weapons right now it destroys in cqc and is very powerful against armor and such... when fitted properly.. like on an amarr suit.. with the overheat reduction skill maxed it can shoot rapidly for a very long time... without worry of overheat... it might be more powerful than the tac ar before it was nerfed... but aside from that 1.4 in general have given the new players a better chance against the proto bears...and i kinda think it should stay this way... ive pretty much tried every weapon on here except nova knives... and i dont mind getting killed while in a free default mlt suit... im sure the proto bears hate getting killed by everything because they want to be invincible on the game. and thats all this really comes down to is a person losing proto gear to a better skilled player with less total sp.. thats all it really involves now... so i find all the nerf ar or certain gun threads quite stupid.. i think im just gonna leave this dum stuff to the noob brigade... or whatever they call themselves now... and for some actual in game feed back: blaster turrets still seem to have some hit detection problems currently when going against infantry....
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1701	Posted - 2013.09.17 17:43:00 - [68] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. Generally agree, although I would add that the hipfire feels too accurate when compared with the ADS even before application of sharpshooter. The AR is not quite as "spry and pray" ready as the SMG (which is made for that very thing) but it is closer than most other infantry weapons in the game by a fair bit and when combined with it's range that distorts its utility profile. At present due to the only minor differences between hipfire and ADS the AR has a much wider effective range of utility than its on paper stats suggest, while the majority of other weapons have range effects that can be felt (i.e. alter the ways a merc must employ them for greatest effect) more clearly. LR - Must be within the optimal 'window' too little or too much range and it's effectively a beam of nerf foam ScR - Nearest to the AR but being a precision weapon its hipfire is more defined from its ADS TACAR - Same as ScR MD - Positioning is everything, maybe less "range" in the strictest sense but the weapon dictates how you engage if you want to be effective, and the sights are effectively meaningless. Sniper - Very clear gab between ADS and hipfire. Shotty - Much like the MD it's essentially hipfire only and its nature heavily dictates which engagements are even possible. SMG - Again nearly hipfire only, but still only one effective engagement category. I could go on but the point is, the AR is a versatile weapon and that's fine, what is less fine is that the versatility is in a sense doubled when the gap between ADS and hipfire is so minor. As it stands now the ADS is great for extended pinpoint range and the hipfire is great for CQC, due to the nature of the weapon the ADS should have a larger advantage over its hipfire use. Including that in the above would bring it spot on IMO. 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ I test on several characters with intentionally very different builds and SP investments to maintain a well rounded first hand impression of the game. That being said, for those who care, my main has more SP into ARs than any other weapon and my Proto fits run ARs.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1044	Posted - 2013.09.17 18:21:00 - [69] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: D legendary hero wrote: General12912 wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. 'D,' it is clear you have an agenda. What weapon do you specialize in? If you as me, at the rate things are getting nerfed, every weapon may be quite useless. My problem is that CCP seems to be resorting to nerfing. Yet, as it has proven time and time again, nerfing just makes another weapon 'OP,' so to speak. I use ARs, Scr, Ascr. can't use anything else. everything else I could use is called a noob weapon and/or is nerfed... so... ... in fairness i say any weapon you use is a noob weapon... im not bias Indeed. Real men use swords and fists...
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1044	Posted - 2013.09.17 18:22:00 - [70] - Quote PADDEHATPIGEN wrote: YEAH CCP. listhen to the cry babys, make the full auto AR's just as useless as you did whit the rest of the AR's. STOP NERFING MY WAEPONS... FIX the tactial AR's, make it able to hit something, and give it back its 36 round mag. there was never a problem whit this weapon other then the ROF could be abused whit modded controllers and programeble keybords, but still you had to ruin it whit extreme kick, extreme dispersion, and lowewr the clip sice to 18 rounds... FIX the breach AR's, they are utterly USELESS, you need to fire 2 full clips into someone to kill them now. FIX the burst AR's this is even worse, its just as hard to hit anything whit this rifle as it is whit the tac AR's and on top of that it does damagd like the breach AR's, THAT SUCKS... Modded controllers can also be used whit the SCR and it makes it an OP BEAST, try it... I can get of quite a few shots before it overheats, as the overheat mecanism is based on time and NOT rounds fired. You even stated that both the SCR and the ASCR dont have recoil, dont have alot of dispersion, they have higher dps, and more rounds in a clip, but you still want to nerf the AR's. WTF. Actually the nerf I proposed to the AR is a buff to the breach. the breach requires more skill, and needs the dps of the full auto...

D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1044	Posted - 2013.09.17 18:23:00 - [71] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Honestly the burst rifle needs its 7 rounds burst back instead of the 3 round burst it was nerfed to. hell yeah!. as much as I hate ar's I love diversity. getting killed by a burst gets my respect.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1044	Posted - 2013.09.17 18:25:00 - [72] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: D legendary hero wrote: General12912 wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. 'D,' it is clear you have an agenda. What weapon do you specialize in? If you as me, at the rate things are getting nerfed, every weapon may be quite useless. My problem is that CCP seems to be resorting to nerfing. Yet, as it has proven time and time again, nerfing just makes another weapon 'OP,' so to speak. I use ARs, Scr, Ascr. can't use anything else. everything else I could use is called a noob weapon and/or is nerfed... so... So if it is proto, it is still noob? Come on, each weapon is useful for one role or another, it isn't worth worrying about the noobs complaining about boundless weapons. They are OP more because of skill or SP than anything else. well proto should be good. but when something at milita level is better than weapons at proto level then... there is a problem. a serious problem. when you need adv and proto hmg's to keep up with GEKs, and std ARs there is a problem. jus sayin
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1044	Posted - 2013.09.17 18:28:00 - [73] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: i think ive the noticed galente research facility map made wearing full proto useless.. so many ambush points.. on that map and there r ambush points above the ambush points... killzones and such.... any ways i just say somthing about nerfing an officer weapon? that is one of the worst ideas i have ever heard... i think shotgun needs a better grouping of the shots... but still its very effective in cqc... just cant do hardly anything at range... but i think there should be a new variant that gets its damage decreased for better range... and from multiple battles ive been in lately the imperial scrambler rifle has to be one of the most devastating weapons right now it destroys in cqc and is very powerful against armor and such... when fitted properly.. like on an amarr suit.. with the overheat reduction skill maxed it can shoot rapidly for a very long time... without worry of overheat... it might be more powerful than the tac ar before it was nerfed... but aside from that 1.4 in general have given the new players a better chance against the proto bears...and i kinda think it should stay this way... ive pretty much tried every weapon on here except nova knives... and i dont mind getting killed while in a free default mlt suit... im sure the proto bears hate getting killed by everything because they want to be invincible on the game. and thats all this really comes down to is a person losing proto gear to a better skilled player with less total sp.. thats all it really involves now... so i find all the nerf ar or certain gun threads quite stupid.. i think im just gonna leave this dum stuff to the noob brigade... or whatever they call themselves now... and for some actual in game feed back: blaster turrets still seem to have some hit detection problems currently when going against infantry.... with the DPS duvolles do... there is almost no point to the balac. it doesn't get the kill that much faster....lol hell, I've been seeing proto suits with exil ar's because its so effective they dnt even both to use anything else. the prophecy has come true, AR 514 it is...lolz
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1044	Posted - 2013.09.18 05:02:00 - [74] - Quote bumpo
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3431	Posted - 2013.09.24 18:31:00 - [75] - Quote I had intended to add a module on fittings but I haven't had time lately.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1105	Posted - 2013.09.24 20:18:00 - [76] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: D legendary hero wrote: General12912 wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. 'D,' it is clear you have an agenda. What weapon do you specialize in? If you as me, at the rate things are getting nerfed, every weapon may be quite useless. My problem is that CCP seems to be resorting to nerfing. Yet, as it has proven time and time again, nerfing just makes another weapon 'OP,' so to speak. I use ARs, Scr, Ascr. can't use anything else. everything else I could use is called a noob weapon and/or is nerfed... so... ... in fairness i say any weapon you use is a noob weapon... im not bias so nova knives are noob weapons... well, guess I better start using my melees then


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