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The AR - A neutral look - Mathematics included

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Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:46:00 - [1] - Quote -THREAD UNDER CONSTRUCTION PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING- Recently there have been no end of AR nerf threads. IGÇÖve found dubious maths in all of the ones that IGÇÖve seen so far, highly biased opinions (It kills me so it must be OP, etc), and are generally by people attempting to push their agenda. I am going to try and have a neutral stance. For those who may accuse me of being an AR user, I use the scrambler rifle. For those who accuse me of wanting the AR nerfed, I may well do should real maths indicate that. Now. We will begin by looking at the basic, standard assault rifle. The basic assault rifle does 34.0 damage per shot. It fires at a rate of 750 RPM. The DPS of this weapon, assuming every shot hits, is 425. It has a clip size of 60. It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. LetGÇÖs compare this to some other weapons, in a variety of different ways. [P1] DPS [P2] Range [P3] Recoil/Accuracy/Dispersion [P4] Clip size/Reload speed [P5] Additional factors [P6] Summary [P1] DPS: The DPS of the basic assault rifle is, as mentioned earlier, 425. LetGÇÖs compare it to a number of other weapons. Scrambler Rifle - Semiautomatic This is an excellent example of a weapon with which paper DPS doesnGÇÖt tell the full story. In terms of DPS, it is on par with the old TAR. It fires 72.0 damage shots at 705.8 RPM, with a clip size of 45. The DPS of this weapon is 847. Scrambler Assault Rifle There is no basic variant for this, so I have extrapolated based on the 5% damage increase from ADV to PRO. Damage per shot is 35.9. It fires at a rate of 705.8 RPM. 11.7 shots per second, doing 35.9 damage each equals a DPS of 422. Heavy Machine Gun Damage per shot is 18. It fires at a rate of 2000.0 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 33.3 shots per second, or 600 DPS. Submachine Gun Damage per shot is 23. It fires at a rate of 1000 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 16.3 shots per second, or 383 DPS. Mass Driver Damage per shot is 242, direct hit, or 116, splash hit. It fires at 60 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 1 shot per second, or 242 DPS direct, 116 DPS splash. Scrambler Pistol Damage per shot is 80. It fires at a rate of 400 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 6.33 shots per second, or 533 DPS. Notably, thereGÇÖs a 450% headshot multiplier on this weapon. That makes it significantly more effective when you can aim accurately. Laser Rifle Damage per shot is 17. Unfortunately, there is no rate of fire for this weapon and the damage does in fact scale as you fire longer, so itGÇÖs difficult to pin down the DPS of this weapon, which fluctuates. For side by side DPS: Assault Rifle425 Scrambler Rifle847 Assault Scrambler Rifle422 Mass Driver Direct242 Mass Driver Splash116 Heavy Machine Gun600 Submachine Gun383 Scrambler Pistol533 [P2] Range: Firstly, here is the source for this information: http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png This was compiled through testing, and IGÇÖm confident that it is accurate. Assault Rifle: Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m Semiautomatic Scrambler Rifle: Optimal Range - 50m Effective Range - 80m Longer ranged than the AR, by a good margin. Scrambler Assault Rifle: Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 80m Actually slightly longer falloff than the AR. Heavy Machine Gun: Optimal Range - 30m Effective Range - 45m Suffers more from dispersion at range than the actual range limitations. This will be covered later. Submachine Gun: Optimal Range - 20m Effective Range - 40m ItGÇÖs worth noting that this is a CQC sidearm with a high RoF precisely because itGÇÖs designed for spray and pray style fighting. As a sidearm, itGÇÖs naturally going to have less range. Mass Driver: Optimal + Effective Range isnGÇÖt really limited. The parabolic trajectory of the weaponGÇÖs shot is what affects this weaponGÇÖs range. Laser Rifle: Optimal Range - 70-80m Effective Range - 50-70m A more interesting case than most in terms of range. It should be noted that at close range this weapon suffers significantly.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:46:00 - [2] - Quote [P4] Clip size/Reload speed Assault Rifle: Clip size of 60. Fairly generous, takes a few seconds to fire off the entire thing. Fast reload. Overall, well-off in the clip size and reload department. Semiautomatic Scrambler Rifle: Clip size of 45. Very generous considering the semiautomatic nature and overheat mechanics. Fast reload. Very well-off for clip size and reload. Scrambler Assault Rifle: Clip size of 72. Combined with a slightly lower RoF than the AR, this allows it to fire for a longer period of time than the assault rifle. Heavy Machine Gun: Clip size of 425. Very large clip, but slow reload. Submachine Gun: Clip size of 80. Very fast reload. Pretty much 10/10 in this area. Scrambler Pistol: Limited clip size of 6-11. Good reload speed. Clip size is restrictive. Mass Driver: Limited clip size of 6. Low rate of fire means it lasts a while, but restrictive and ammo economy is poor. Reload time is averageish. [P5] Additional factors Assault Rifle: N/A. There isnGÇÖt really anything. Semiautomatic Scrambler Rife: Overheating mechanic. This alone balances the weapon - itGÇÖs a draconian penalty for overheating, but the trade-off is a powerful weapon if you use it right. Assault Scrambler Rifle: Overheating mechanic. It doesnGÇÖt really apply to the assault variant however, as it takes a clip and a half of constant firing to overheat it, which never happens in actual combat. Heavy Machine Gun: Overheating. ItGÇÖs not very significant, but itGÇÖs there. Submachine Gun: None. Scrambler Pistol: 450% headshot damage. Very powerful, if you can land the headshot. Mass Driver: Splash damage and parabolic trajectory of shots. The splash damage is very significant, and lets the MD beGÇª the MD, pretty much. Laser Rifle: More overheating. More damaging than the scrambler rifle overheat but more negatable. Damage increases the longer you fire it. This allows tricks like GÇÿpreheatingGÇÖ the laser on a rock before shooting people with it for high damage. This has the disadvantage of potentially alerting people if you shoot them before you have much damage output. [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:47:00 - [3] - Quote -accidentally missed P3, reserve post for fixing-
Synbot Expert Intervention Caldari State 85	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:58:00 - [4] - Quote I agree with you, it's not the DPS or the damage that needs to be nerfed. Just because it always kills you doesn't mean you should go rant around saying the damage needs to be nerfed. I am an assault rifle user, and the thing that I would say needs to change is that recoil like you said. It's a little bit too stable.
DildoMcnutz Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 188	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:10:00 - [5] - Quote I agree
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 912	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:13:00 - [6] - Quote I Find you DPS math sound, however.... Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m That, is rong. At least to my Knowledge. The AR's Effective range, according to ingame terms, is 168ish. Its Absolute is 250ish. That's the One thing I find a bit overkill. That, along with the fact that you went with on-paper DPS for a Semi weapon. DPS with the ScR depends upon the speed at which one can Spam R1/LMB. Quote: [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I have no argument with you thought process, however, the one thing which I think needs to be done to All weapons, except the breaches, is that they should have their 10% Bonus that they got in 1.1 rolled back. CCP probably Bump damage as to compensate somewhat for the fact that HD was shot to hell, but with decent HD, we should roll this back, because the TTK of prior was very desirable for fun, somewhat drawn-out firefights.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3257	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:22:00 - [7] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: I Find you DPS math sound, however.... Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m That, is rong. At least to my Knowledge. The AR's Effective range, according to ingame terms, is 168ish. Its Absolute is 250ish. That's the One thing I find a bit overkill. That, along with the fact that you went with on-paper DPS for a Semi weapon. DPS with the ScR depends upon the speed at which one can Spam R1/LMB. This is of course true for the scrambler rifle, and that goes further to mitigate the on paper high DPS. All of the statistics there are paper DPS - In a real combat situation, none of the weapons will achieve that, as they will miss. The ranges were sourced from here - I define effective range as the range where the damage dropoff curve levels out at a low damage, typically around 30%. That's because it's not really effective past that point. Quote: [P6] Conclusions Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I have no argument with you thought process, however, the one thing which I think needs to be done to All weapons, except the breaches, is that they should have their 10% Bonus that they got in 1.1 rolled back. CCP probably Bump damage as to compensate somewhat for the fact that HD was shot to hell, but with decent HD, we should roll this back, because the TTK of prior was very desirable for fun, somewhat drawn-out firefights.[/quote] The TTK is more of an over-arching issue across the entire game. The 10% buff could probably be rolled back fairly easily, but I'm not sure it would have a huge effect - the shorter TTK is more symptomatic of other things in 1.4, particularly aim assist. If longer TTK is desirable, then it'd certainly be a step in the right direction. It's not the only thing to be considered there though.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 913	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:28:00 - [8] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: I Find you DPS math sound, however.... Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m That, is rong. At least to my Knowledge. The AR's Effective range, according to ingame terms, is 168ish. Its Absolute is 250ish. That's the One thing I find a bit overkill. That, along with the fact that you went with on-paper DPS for a Semi weapon. DPS with the ScR depends upon the speed at which one can Spam R1/LMB. This is of course true for the scrambler rifle, and that goes further to mitigate the on paper high DPS. All of the statistics there are paper DPS - In a real combat situation, none of the weapons will achieve that, as they will miss. The ranges were sourced from here - I define effective range as the range where the damage dropoff curve levels out at a low damage, typically around 30%. That's because it's not really effective past that point. Quote: [P6] Conclusions Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I have no argument with you thought process, however, the one thing which I think needs to be done to All weapons, except the breaches, is that they should have their 10% Bonus that they got in 1.1 rolled back. CCP probably Bump damage as to compensate somewhat for the fact that HD was shot to hell, but with decent HD, we should roll this back, because the TTK of prior was very desirable for fun, somewhat drawn-out firefights. The TTK is more of an over-arching issue across the entire game. The 10% buff could probably be rolled back fairly easily, but I'm not sure it would have a huge effect - the shorter TTK is more symptomatic of other things in 1.4, particularly aim assist. If longer TTK is desirable, then it'd certainly be a step in the right direction. It's not the only thing to be considered there though.[/quote] Ahh, well I was speak of when the Damage stop Droping off, and remains at its minimal Level. Well, the TTK is an important aspect of balance, However, it my own thoughts on that. And, you know what, since you brought it up, I will say this. Buff Recoil/ Dispersion Growth over time. Right now, EVERY weapon is laser precise, and It shouldn't. I feel that Aim assist is fine, as its always less agrivating to die from the other guy hitting mor then just because the other guy could aim. Reticle=/=Spot Bullets will hit. That's the balance that needs to be preformed on Aim Assist.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1501	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:30:00 - [9] - Quote I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3259	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:37:00 - [10] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything.

Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1501	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:51:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything. The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs. Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3259	Posted - 2013.09.15 18:00:00 - [12] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything. The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs. Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP. The idea here is to make it so that it isn't necessarily better overall performance.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1501	Posted - 2013.09.15 18:13:00 - [13] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything. The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs. Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP. The idea here is to make it so that it isn't necessarily better overall performance. I'll try to rephrase - A jack of all trades weapon should have a higher fitting cost to counter the fact that it has no real weaknesses, as a higher cost would ease the heaps of damage mods or almost impenetrable tanks many AR fits can wield. I'd like to see some of the more specialized weapons be easier to fit than the AR, so a shotgunner can field a suit with a better tank on it to let it survive getting within range.
621311251521 3316 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.09.15 18:43:00 - [14] - Quote recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3263	Posted - 2013.09.15 20:43:00 - [15] - Quote 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. It actually fires plasma. The point is, the assault weapons currently do okay at everything and excel at damage application in a game where every other weapon is about trade-offs. This is about looking at ways to bring things in line.
Arc-08 Horizons' Edge Orion Empire 70	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:00:00 - [16] - Quote hey, could you do some math for me, i'm curious about the burst AR, and i'm wondering if it's actually under powered, or if it is just an extremely situational weapon oh and also, about some of the stuff you guys are saying, i would love to use another weapon varient, other than the plain old assault rifle, but i refuse to support the Caldari, or Amarr with my isk, by buying their weapons, i will only give my isk to gallente and minmatar, and considering the AR is gallente that is the weapon i use. i do have plasma cannon, but comon everybody knows it is really broken right now.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3263	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:10:00 - [17] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: hey, could you do some math for me, i'm curious about the burst AR, and i'm wondering if it's actually under powered, or if it is just an extremely situational weapon oh and also, about some of the stuff you guys are saying, i would love to use another weapon varient, other than the plain old assault rifle, but i refuse to support the Caldari, or Amarr with my isk, by buying their weapons, i will only give my isk to gallente and minmatar, and considering the AR is gallente that is the weapon i use. i do have plasma cannon, but comon everybody knows it is really broken right now. Sure. There isn't a standard burst assault rifle, but this number can be extrapolated because it's a 5% increase between tiers. This puts a standard burst rifle at 30.6 damage per shot. It fires approximately 14 shots per second for a total of 425 DPS. This is in fact identical to the standard assault rifle. The reason nobody uses the burst is linked to problems with the burst fire. The burst fire tends to be laggy and the hit detection on it is iffy, so frequently not all of the shots will hit. Also, the paper dps doesn't actually happen even if you land all of the shots because there's a delay between bursts, so while the burst will fire at the listed RPM, the delay reduces the overall DPS. There's also a tad bit more recoil on the burst than on the normal assault rifle, and the scope zooms in a little too much for the range of combat that the burst tends to do. Does that answer your question about the burst? I suspect the Combat Rifle (The Minmatar assault rifle) will be making an appearance in 1.5, so you may well be able to use that in future. Going off on a tangent a little, this brings up a slightly related point - There'll be a lot of various rifles soon, so it should be noted that they're going to need to be balanced against each other as well.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1147	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:40:00 - [18] - Quote I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof!
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3264	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:43:00 - [19] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof! What did this add to the discussion, exactly? Did you actually read the post or just see an AR thread and come to complain about it?
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1147	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:54:00 - [20] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: What did this add to the discussion, exactly? Did you actually read the post or just see an AR thread and come to complain about it? I'm dead serious, Arkena. I fully intend to skill into this weapon. In a matter of weeks, I'll be deadly proficient with it. My only remaining handicap will be my shoddy Scout suit. I'm a shotgunner at heart, but the AR is better. Hands down. Tried the same switch with the MD, but with far less success. I'm sincerely excited about smashing face at lessened disadvantage. Whether or not this weapon gets nerfed is no longer a concern of mine.

Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 241	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:55:00 - [21] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof! I had the same experience when I played on my friends old account that has only been acquiring passives with no investment in Ars with no skill allocated in anything (this was during 1.3) the Ar still ripped things apart, the sheer difference is astronomical, in fact it made me a little uneasy how much work I was doing not using the AR, and I know we both come from the scout camp of no previous Ar experience. So I can confirm that this is true as well, though I still won't be making the switch to the Ar regardless and I accept the competitive consequences of that choice by potential exclusion from PC.
Princeps Marcellus Expert Intervention Caldari State 211	Posted - 2013.09.15 22:55:00 - [22] - Quote Thank you, good sir. I agree with your opinions. Maybe it's my current distance from the game (haven't played for a good while) but those all seem to be solid opinions. If I may ask, isn't the beginning of the Laser Rifle's optimal located at 65 meters? I hear that number passed around sometimes. And I'm fairly sure that there's a massive damage falloff at the end of the LR's optimal range, which your post doesn't quite indicate. Of course, this stuff might've passed right over my head what with 1.4 coming in my absence. You'd be the more educated one in this case.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 117	Posted - 2013.09.15 23:50:00 - [23] - Quote quite well put OP, you won't here me disagree. 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. RL=/= good video game mechanics and seriously please ever one here go learn about physics, plasma, maybe a little heat transfer, and for the love of god some sense of ******* scale.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 242	Posted - 2013.09.15 23:55:00 - [24] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: quite well put OP, you won't here me disagree. 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. RL=/= good video game mechanics and seriously please ever one here go learn about physics, plasma, maybe a little heat transfer, and for the love of god some sense of ******* scale. It actually isn't a pure energy weapon as is subject to dispersion as well, the whole reason it travels so far is that the plasma is keep in shells, thus hybrid weapon, so it would have a kick to it, otherwise plasma the size of a bullet would not go past shotgun range. If if we are going for IRL the Ar should go no more than 15 meters or it has major kick.
Thurak1 Psygod9 184	Posted - 2013.09.15 23:57:00 - [25] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: quite well put OP, you won't here me disagree. 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. RL=/= good video game mechanics and seriously please ever one here go learn about physics, plasma, maybe a little heat transfer, and for the love of god some sense of ******* scale. If RL had any place in the video game the whole bunny hop thing would be pointless because keeping a weapon on target while jumping around would be nearly impossible. As far as the OP goes your conclusions seem correct its not really the DPS that is so OP but more its ability to reliabally apply the DPS that makes it really stand out. There should be something done either to all other weapons so they hit more often or the AR needs to be nerfed in some manner.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1074	Posted - 2013.09.16 00:02:00 - [26] - Quote I really..dont know what to say to AR nerf posts anymore. I feel the Scrambler rifle does take more skill,but its at least 50% more powerful. Nothing beats my Imperial SR,....
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2013.09.16 00:07:00 - [27] - Quote Been using Assault rifles since early closed beta, including AR, TAR and Burst AR (BAR?). Personally I'd prefer to use TAR and BAR since I like to play the medium-long range / anti-sniper game (Read: something else than spray and pray.) But currently I am just using the 'exile' Assault rifle. It's cheap and it deals fair amount of damage to even guys running around in proto gear. Sure I could use Duvolle, but it's pretty much an overkill. So yes, as an AR user I admit that the weapon is really overpowered. It's not the damage that is overpowered tough, its the range and accuracy. You can literally just aim the enemy from 50-60m and fire the weapon on full-auto and most bullets will still hit the target without any problems. There's really no reason to use TAR or BAR variants since normal AR outclasses them in pretty much every situation, sure TAR has longer effective range but DPS from that range is pathetic and mainly useful for softening enemies. (read: useless)
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1074	Posted - 2013.09.16 00:12:00 - [28] - Quote Kyy Seiska wrote: So yes, as an AR user I admit that the weapon is really overpowered. It's not the damage that is overpowered tough, its the range and accuracy. You can literally just aim the enemy from 50-60m and fire the weapon on full-auto and most bullets will still hit the target without any problems. YOU ARE RIGHT, the ''feeling'' the AR gives is the crazy precision it has at long ranges at full auto.In other FPS the full auto feature helps you at CQ and mid range,but at longer ranges small bursts of controlled fire are needed for the weapon to successfully hit. As it is,the AR's hit 80-95% of their shots even at max range. BUt this is Hit detection + aim assist that needs a fix, i dont think the AR needs a nerf thou...
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1040	Posted - 2013.09.16 04:01:00 - [29] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I think the DPS of the breach AR and the full auto should be swapped. the breach AR is garbage right now... low range, low fire rate, DPS. if the full auto AR had all else equal but the DPS changed to 340 and the Breach had everything the same except its dps was buffed to 425 (or 467 as i fimrly beleive the 10% was not caked into the weapons), this would go a long way toward balance.
D legendary hero THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND 1040	Posted - 2013.09.16 04:03:00 - [30] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: hgghyujh wrote: quite well put OP, you won't here me disagree. 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. RL=/= good video game mechanics and seriously please ever one here go learn about physics, plasma, maybe a little heat transfer, and for the love of god some sense of ******* scale. If RL had any place in the video game the whole bunny hop thing would be pointless because keeping a weapon on target while jumping around would be nearly impossible. As far as the OP goes your conclusions seem correct its not really the DPS that is so OP but more its ability to reliabally apply the DPS that makes it really stand out. There should be something done either to all other weapons so they hit more often or the AR needs to be nerfed in some manner. agreed.



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