DUST Search - The AR - A neutral look

D legendary hero wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

[quote=D legendary hero]
we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.)

Quote:

The problem with this is that it has a similarly extreme effect to what you wanted to do with the HMG - by nerfing practically everything about the weapon significantly, you will break it completely.

This is exactly what happened to the flaylock. D. damage nerf, splash damage nerf, splash radius nerf (radius to a splash weapon is like range to a hit scan weapon) and ammo nerf...lol

Quote:

It doesn't excel at DPS, contrary to popular belief, so nerfing that makes it a subpar damage dealer. If you nerf its range then perhaps it does lose some of its ability to apply damage but combined with a DPS nerf then it makes the weapon unviable. Particularly when you then go on and nerf the ammo economy. Oh, and I seem to recall you wanted significant recoil added.

My problem with it, is not only what i mentioned in my OP of the other post. but, that it renders all other ARs practically useless.

full auto AR > breach why? marginally lower damage per shot, higher range, higher fire rate, better hip fire, higher dps

full auto AR > burst. why? dps is much lower. due to the time between bursts. horrible at hipfire, and mediocre at range
full auto > TAC. why? tact is still pretty decent. but, no where near as effective as the full auto at close -mid range encounters. dps is pretty pathetic comparably.

if the full auto gets its dps switched with the breach AR but the other stats remain the same it would be ok.

another suggestion i liked, was to keep everything the same but increase the CPU/PG to a litter higher than the scrambler rifle. making it harder to tank with them.

I mean right now a std caldari medium frame can tank shield extenders and armor plates, use a GEK have an adv SMG, grenades and drop uplinks. amassing 700+ ehp.
the idea is if your OFFense is going to be really good, then your DEFense should be weak. having both the best offense and the best defense is OP in and of itself.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:46:00 - [1] - Quote -THREAD UNDER CONSTRUCTION PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING- Recently there have been no end of AR nerf threads. IGÇÖve found dubious maths in all of the ones that IGÇÖve seen so far, highly biased opinions (It kills me so it must be OP, etc), and are generally by people attempting to push their agenda. I am going to try and have a neutral stance. For those who may accuse me of being an AR user, I use the scrambler rifle. For those who accuse me of wanting the AR nerfed, I may well do should real maths indicate that. Now. We will begin by looking at the basic, standard assault rifle. The basic assault rifle does 34.0 damage per shot. It fires at a rate of 750 RPM. The DPS of this weapon, assuming every shot hits, is 425. It has a clip size of 60. It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. LetGÇÖs compare this to some other weapons, in a variety of different ways. [P1] DPS [P2] Range [P3] Recoil/Accuracy/Dispersion [P4] Clip size/Reload speed [P5] Additional factors [P6] Summary [P1] DPS: The DPS of the basic assault rifle is, as mentioned earlier, 425. LetGÇÖs compare it to a number of other weapons. Scrambler Rifle - Semiautomatic This is an excellent example of a weapon with which paper DPS doesnGÇÖt tell the full story. In terms of DPS, it is on par with the old TAR. It fires 72.0 damage shots at 705.8 RPM, with a clip size of 45. The DPS of this weapon is 847. Scrambler Assault Rifle There is no basic variant for this, so I have extrapolated based on the 5% damage increase from ADV to PRO. Damage per shot is 35.9. It fires at a rate of 705.8 RPM. 11.7 shots per second, doing 35.9 damage each equals a DPS of 422. Heavy Machine Gun Damage per shot is 18. It fires at a rate of 2000.0 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 33.3 shots per second, or 600 DPS. Submachine Gun Damage per shot is 23. It fires at a rate of 1000 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 16.3 shots per second, or 383 DPS. Mass Driver Damage per shot is 242, direct hit, or 116, splash hit. It fires at 60 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 1 shot per second, or 242 DPS direct, 116 DPS splash. Scrambler Pistol Damage per shot is 80. It fires at a rate of 400 RPM. ThatGÇÖs 6.33 shots per second, or 533 DPS. Notably, thereGÇÖs a 450% headshot multiplier on this weapon. That makes it significantly more effective when you can aim accurately. Laser Rifle Damage per shot is 17. Unfortunately, there is no rate of fire for this weapon and the damage does in fact scale as you fire longer, so itGÇÖs difficult to pin down the DPS of this weapon, which fluctuates. For side by side DPS: Assault Rifle425 Scrambler Rifle847 Assault Scrambler Rifle422 Mass Driver Direct242 Mass Driver Splash116 Heavy Machine Gun600 Submachine Gun383 Scrambler Pistol533 [P2] Range: Firstly, here is the source for this information: http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png This was compiled through testing, and IGÇÖm confident that it is accurate. Assault Rifle: Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m Semiautomatic Scrambler Rifle: Optimal Range - 50m Effective Range - 80m Longer ranged than the AR, by a good margin. Scrambler Assault Rifle: Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 80m Actually slightly longer falloff than the AR. Heavy Machine Gun: Optimal Range - 30m Effective Range - 45m Suffers more from dispersion at range than the actual range limitations. This will be covered later. Submachine Gun: Optimal Range - 20m Effective Range - 40m ItGÇÖs worth noting that this is a CQC sidearm with a high RoF precisely because itGÇÖs designed for spray and pray style fighting. As a sidearm, itGÇÖs naturally going to have less range. Mass Driver: Optimal + Effective Range isnGÇÖt really limited. The parabolic trajectory of the weaponGÇÖs shot is what affects this weaponGÇÖs range. Laser Rifle: Optimal Range - 70-80m Effective Range - 50-70m A more interesting case than most in terms of range. It should be noted that at close range this weapon suffers significantly.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:46:00 - [2] - Quote [P4] Clip size/Reload speed Assault Rifle: Clip size of 60. Fairly generous, takes a few seconds to fire off the entire thing. Fast reload. Overall, well-off in the clip size and reload department. Semiautomatic Scrambler Rifle: Clip size of 45. Very generous considering the semiautomatic nature and overheat mechanics. Fast reload. Very well-off for clip size and reload. Scrambler Assault Rifle: Clip size of 72. Combined with a slightly lower RoF than the AR, this allows it to fire for a longer period of time than the assault rifle. Heavy Machine Gun: Clip size of 425. Very large clip, but slow reload. Submachine Gun: Clip size of 80. Very fast reload. Pretty much 10/10 in this area. Scrambler Pistol: Limited clip size of 6-11. Good reload speed. Clip size is restrictive. Mass Driver: Limited clip size of 6. Low rate of fire means it lasts a while, but restrictive and ammo economy is poor. Reload time is averageish. [P5] Additional factors Assault Rifle: N/A. There isnGÇÖt really anything. Semiautomatic Scrambler Rife: Overheating mechanic. This alone balances the weapon - itGÇÖs a draconian penalty for overheating, but the trade-off is a powerful weapon if you use it right. Assault Scrambler Rifle: Overheating mechanic. It doesnGÇÖt really apply to the assault variant however, as it takes a clip and a half of constant firing to overheat it, which never happens in actual combat. Heavy Machine Gun: Overheating. ItGÇÖs not very significant, but itGÇÖs there. Submachine Gun: None. Scrambler Pistol: 450% headshot damage. Very powerful, if you can land the headshot. Mass Driver: Splash damage and parabolic trajectory of shots. The splash damage is very significant, and lets the MD beGÇª the MD, pretty much. Laser Rifle: More overheating. More damaging than the scrambler rifle overheat but more negatable. Damage increases the longer you fire it. This allows tricks like GÇÿpreheatingGÇÖ the laser on a rock before shooting people with it for high damage. This has the disadvantage of potentially alerting people if you shoot them before you have much damage output. [P6] Conclusions There are a number of conclusions to be drawn from this. The first is that on paper, the AR does not have notably superior DPS. A large number of weapons exceed it. The next thing to note is that compared to most weapons, the AR is quite good at applying its damage. Not the de facto best, but it does it very well. This is caused by a combination of range and dispersion/recoil. The third thing is that it doesnGÇÖt have a major disadvantage. This is in keeping with its status as a GÇÿjack of all tradesGÇÖ weapon. Looking at the other statistics, only damage application is really that much better than other weapon systems. The raw damage isnGÇÖt exceptional, contrary to popular belief. ItGÇÖs the ARGÇÖs ability to apply that damage that makes it such an effective weapon. Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3252	Posted - 2013.09.15 16:47:00 - [3] - Quote -accidentally missed P3, reserve post for fixing-
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3257	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:22:00 - [4] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: I Find you DPS math sound, however.... Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It has an optimal range of 40m, and the effective range is 65-70m. Optimal Range - 40m Effective Range - 65m That, is rong. At least to my Knowledge. The AR's Effective range, according to ingame terms, is 168ish. Its Absolute is 250ish. That's the One thing I find a bit overkill. That, along with the fact that you went with on-paper DPS for a Semi weapon. DPS with the ScR depends upon the speed at which one can Spam R1/LMB. This is of course true for the scrambler rifle, and that goes further to mitigate the on paper high DPS. All of the statistics there are paper DPS - In a real combat situation, none of the weapons will achieve that, as they will miss. The ranges were sourced from here - I define effective range as the range where the damage dropoff curve levels out at a low damage, typically around 30%. That's because it's not really effective past that point. Quote: [P6] Conclusions Many think that the AR should be nerfed. I do not support this, at least not in the way that most expect. A raw DPS nerf here is not the way to go - instead, look at the damage application, as thatGÇÖs the area that the AR actually does better than other weapons at. That includes range, dispersion, and recoil. In particular, I would highlight the recoil as something to be looked at. It doesnGÇÖt apply until halfway through the clip - this isnGÇÖt a good recoil mechanic, as this allows the DPS to be applied constantly throughout the clip. If the AR is to be brought into line as a versatile weapon that doesnGÇÖt excel, then what it actually excels at should be looked at - in this case, itGÇÖs low recoil. The reason I highlight recoil as a potential solution is partially because excessive dispersion is a terrible mechanic - There is no real reason that you should miss if your aim is perfectly on target. The other reason I see recoil as a better solution is because itGÇÖs something that the weapon is lacking significantly in at the moment - simply tapping the trigger every odd second to completely negate the effects of recoil is not a good recoil mechanic. TL;DR: The one area the AR excels in is damage application. If the weapon is to be nerfed, then that is the area which should be looked at. It should also be noted that the ASCR is very similar to the AR. I have no argument with you thought process, however, the one thing which I think needs to be done to All weapons, except the breaches, is that they should have their 10% Bonus that they got in 1.1 rolled back. CCP probably Bump damage as to compensate somewhat for the fact that HD was shot to hell, but with decent HD, we should roll this back, because the TTK of prior was very desirable for fun, somewhat drawn-out firefights.[/quote] The TTK is more of an over-arching issue across the entire game. The 10% buff could probably be rolled back fairly easily, but I'm not sure it would have a huge effect - the shorter TTK is more symptomatic of other things in 1.4, particularly aim assist. If longer TTK is desirable, then it'd certainly be a step in the right direction. It's not the only thing to be considered there though.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3259	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:37:00 - [5] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3259	Posted - 2013.09.15 18:00:00 - [6] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: I'm still convinced that adjusting the fitting costs of the AR to limit is all that needs to happen to bring this weapon in line with other weapons. I'd say just enough so that it is slightly higher than the shotgun. It'll still be much easier to fit than the SCR. Fitting costs on that weapon are insane. All in all, If I play my strengths with my SCR AR's aren't a problem for me. what we really need are militia variants of all weapons. I say no direct nerfs or buffs until after 1.5, though. The SCR is actually an outlier in terms of fitting costs - a lot of weapons are similar or lower than the AR in terms of fitting requirements. And yes to militia everything. The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs. Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP. The idea here is to make it so that it isn't necessarily better overall performance.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3263	Posted - 2013.09.15 20:43:00 - [7] - Quote 621311251521 3316 wrote: recoil is fine on the ar its a energy weapon like the scramble pulse rifle. It actually fires plasma. The point is, the assault weapons currently do okay at everything and excel at damage application in a game where every other weapon is about trade-offs. This is about looking at ways to bring things in line.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3263	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:10:00 - [8] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: hey, could you do some math for me, i'm curious about the burst AR, and i'm wondering if it's actually under powered, or if it is just an extremely situational weapon oh and also, about some of the stuff you guys are saying, i would love to use another weapon varient, other than the plain old assault rifle, but i refuse to support the Caldari, or Amarr with my isk, by buying their weapons, i will only give my isk to gallente and minmatar, and considering the AR is gallente that is the weapon i use. i do have plasma cannon, but comon everybody knows it is really broken right now. Sure. There isn't a standard burst assault rifle, but this number can be extrapolated because it's a 5% increase between tiers. This puts a standard burst rifle at 30.6 damage per shot. It fires approximately 14 shots per second for a total of 425 DPS. This is in fact identical to the standard assault rifle. The reason nobody uses the burst is linked to problems with the burst fire. The burst fire tends to be laggy and the hit detection on it is iffy, so frequently not all of the shots will hit. Also, the paper dps doesn't actually happen even if you land all of the shots because there's a delay between bursts, so while the burst will fire at the listed RPM, the delay reduces the overall DPS. There's also a tad bit more recoil on the burst than on the normal assault rifle, and the scope zooms in a little too much for the range of combat that the burst tends to do. Does that answer your question about the burst? I suspect the Combat Rifle (The Minmatar assault rifle) will be making an appearance in 1.5, so you may well be able to use that in future. Going off on a tangent a little, this brings up a slightly related point - There'll be a lot of various rifles soon, so it should be noted that they're going to need to be balanced against each other as well.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3264	Posted - 2013.09.15 21:43:00 - [9] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: I'm so excited right now, guys ... OK, first the maths: 1.17M total SP in Shotguns 1.45M total SP in SMGs 0 SP in ARs Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR. Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG! Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever. The only thing that kills me is a better AR. No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots. Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual. Zero risk and all the reward! As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map! The only drawback ... There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks. Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof! What did this add to the discussion, exactly? Did you actually read the post or just see an AR thread and come to complain about it?
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3287	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:07:00 - [10] - Quote Princeps Marcellus wrote: Thank you, good sir. I agree with your opinions. Maybe it's my current distance from the game (haven't played for a good while) but those all seem to be solid opinions. If I may ask, isn't the beginning of the Laser Rifle's optimal located at 65 meters? I hear that number passed around sometimes. And I'm fairly sure that there's a massive damage falloff at the end of the LR's optimal range, which your post doesn't quite indicate. Of course, this stuff might've passed right over my head what with 1.4 coming in my absence. You'd be the more educated one in this case. It actually appears to be 66m - I'll edit the OP to reflect this. And yes - there is a massive damage drop-off. I'll add that as well - It's a huge thing on the weapon, and it's something that can't be solved by simply nerfing the AR.

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3288	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:15:00 - [11] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.) The problem with this is that it has a similarly extreme effect to what you wanted to do with the HMG - by nerfing practically everything about the weapon significantly, you will break it completely. It doesn't excel at DPS, contrary to popular belief, so nerfing that makes it a subpar damage dealer. If you nerf its range then perhaps it does lose some of its ability to apply damage but combined with a DPS nerf then it makes the weapon unviable. Particularly when you then go on and nerf the ammo economy. Oh, and I seem to recall you wanted significant recoil added.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3288	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:17:00 - [12] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: A similiar conclsion I had in a recent post. was to nerf the price of guns and suits that were UP, so as to help soften the loss when yo get WTF pwn by an AR. which happens to my heavy suit alot. A superior solution would be to actually balance things so they're not UP. Also, you literally listed everything except the AR and medium frames in that thread, including a number of weapons (such as the SCR) which are certainly not UP.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3288	Posted - 2013.09.16 06:18:00 - [13] - Quote Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that slows you to tank out you outfitt Alright, because a number of people have mentioned this now I'm going to add another section on this.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3315	Posted - 2013.09.16 18:52:00 - [14] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: ThatGÇÖs basicly what suggested in some other threads as well. Simply change the (DPS) stats if breach and assault (thhe breach should be the caldari mimic weapon and therefore have long range low dps. But I think when the GAR gets the Range of the breach by maintaining the DPS the AsCR needs a look a well as both weapons have quite similar dps. So the GAR would need a slighty dps buff while keeping the damage per clip. Either a buff to Rof or a buff to Damage while reducing the Clipsize. Or the AsCR needs a DPS nerf as wellGÇª. edit The old damage (prior the 10% buff) for the Exile was 31 damage per shot so the 10% damage buff is already in the weapon stats. IGÇÖm a little baffled as to what youGÇÖre trying to say here. If youGÇÖre swapping the DPS stats of the breach and assault rifles, thatGÇÖs a significant nerf to the assault variant. Yet then you go on to talk about buffing the GARGÇÖs DPS? I assume youGÇÖre trying to think of the necessary differences between racial weapons. ThatGÇÖs certainly a necessary consideration GÇô The ASCR and AR are currently very similar, with less than a few percent difference in DPS and range. Addressing the idea of swapping the DPS stats GÇô Straight out reducing the DPS of the assault rifle isnGÇÖt a very good idea. As seen in the statistics in the OP, the damage output of the weapon is similar to a number of other weapons, including sidearms. I understand it has a better damage application than those GÇô thatGÇÖs what I would suggest reducing, if anything, but the damage output isnGÇÖt notably higher than any other weapon. If the damage were to be nerfed, the archetype of short range high damage weaponry canGÇÖt be fulfilled by the assault rifle. To fit that archetype better, it would be a better idea to reduce the damage applicationof the assault rifle. Of course, if you simply swapped the stats then the breach could be a good deal closer to that ideal, but that hardly fits with what itGÇÖs meant to be GÇô A Caldari mimic, long range, low dps. I have to say I quite like the idea of a lower clip size on the GAR, though. Perhaps if the ranges of the breach and assault rifles were swapped, then that would work. I personally dislike that solution as I see hard limiting mechanics on accuracy as bad mechanics (If youGÇÖre completely on target, then you should hit the target GÇô thatGÇÖs why I advocate making it harder to be on target) but it would certainly work. But bear in mind that bringing down the range that much brings the AR well into sidearm territory for ranges GÇô The scrambler pistol can outdps it significantly in that range, vastly more so if it scores headshots, as just one example. The ASCR has to be nerfed equally with the GAR, yes, or itGÇÖll simply replace the AR. The only real reason the AR is seen more often is because of more frequent SP allocation and easier access. In this case, the damage application is acceptable for the theme of the weapon, but the DPS would be too high. To summarise: 1.The breach wouldnGÇÖt fit the Caldari mimic ideal if the DPS was switched GÇô itGÇÖs much closer to the Gallente ideal. If the ranges were swapped, that would work better thematically. 2.Bringing down the range significantly would crush the current damage application advantage that the AR has GÇô but when pushed into sidearm range, the current DPS is outmatched significantly by most weapons in that range. Contrary to popular belief, as I hope I demonstrated in the OP, the DPS on the AR is not that stellar. 3.The ASCR must also be considered, as you rightly said (Unless IGÇÖm misinterpreting your post). This is as much of a general points post as a response to your post tbh, because I was a little confused as to your initial viewpoint so I went off on a number of tangents.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3316	Posted - 2013.09.16 19:14:00 - [15] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: [quote=D legendary hero] we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.) Quote: The problem with this is that it has a similarly extreme effect to what you wanted to do with the HMG - by nerfing practically everything about the weapon significantly, you will break it completely. This is exactly what happened to the flaylock. D. damage nerf, splash damage nerf, splash radius nerf (radius to a splash weapon is like range to a hit scan weapon) and ammo nerf...lol Quote: It doesn't excel at DPS, contrary to popular belief, so nerfing that makes it a subpar damage dealer. If you nerf its range then perhaps it does lose some of its ability to apply damage but combined with a DPS nerf then it makes the weapon unviable. Particularly when you then go on and nerf the ammo economy. Oh, and I seem to recall you wanted significant recoil added. My problem with it, is not only what i mentioned in my OP of the other post. but, that it renders all other ARs practically useless. full auto AR > breach why? marginally lower damage per shot, higher range, higher fire rate, better hip fire, higher dps [467>340] full auto AR > burst. why? dps is much lower. due to the time between bursts. horrible at hipfire, and mediocre at range full auto > TAC. why? tact is still pretty decent. but, no where near as effective as the full auto at close -mid range encounters. dps is pretty pathetic comparably. if the full auto gets its dps switched with the breach AR but the other stats remain the same it would be ok. another suggestion i liked, was to keep everything the same but increase the CPU/PG to a litter higher than the scrambler rifle. making it harder to tank with them. I mean right now a std caldari medium frame can tank shield extenders and armor plates, use a GEK have an adv SMG, grenades and drop uplinks. amassing 700+ ehp. the idea is if your OFFense is going to be really good, then your DEFense should be weak. having both the best offense and the best defense is OP in and of itself. Firstly, on your alleged STD Caldari medium frame fit - That's impossible. Even using stable drop uplinks, maxed skills, and a number of other resource cuts you can't come remotely close to fitting that on a standard suit. Even on an advanced frame you'd struggle to get those stats, at least without having a ton of non-repping armour deadweight. I'm glad to see that you've realised that such a multi-faceted and heavy nerf would break another weapon. However, I'd really like to encourage you to look at other things than simple raw DPS. As you should understand as an HMG user, other factors such as dispersion can significantly affect weaponry, and that's what I'd advocate for the assault rifle. The problem with the burst and breach ARs is less that the fully automatic variant overshadows them and more that they're simply bad. The TAR is still good in the right hands - fulfilling its role quite well as a longer ranged variant. The burst mode of fire is simply terrible, as it's a draconian way of moderating your firing so you have much less control over it, while you do less damage per shot. Overall, the fire rate is also less, as though the full RPM takes effect during the burst, there's a forced break between the bursts. The breach suffers from low rate of fire troubles in its apparently CQC role as well as its DPS. Bear in mind that even were the DPS values to be swapped, the breach would still suffer as it's forced into ranges where it's out damaged, while not having any flexibility - the thing that the AR is meant to specialise in, as quaint as that sounds. This ends up meaning it's not tactically viable. I reiterate - The AR, at least in its current incarnation, is meant to be a jack of all trades. That's not achieved by nerfing the damage output - the damage output is on par with other weapons of its type. The main reason it excels is because of its strong ability to apply that damage.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3316	Posted - 2013.09.16 19:15:00 - [16] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns. AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt This is a valid concern as well. The fittings module that I'm typing up has yet to draw conclusion that the AR is much better than other weapons of its type, apart from the scrambler rifle.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3317	Posted - 2013.09.16 21:23:00 - [17] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: but if CCP just switched the regular assault rifle, to the breach assault rifle, people would just buy the breach, if you already have a duvolle you have the sp to go and buy a breach? i'm guessing this is not what you meant by switching the DPS, but could you please clarify. (otherwise it is almost the same assault rifle with a different name.) The breach assault rifle has reduced range and clip size compared to the normal assault rifle. The tiny clip would be damning on its own tbh, but there are a host of other issues. Incidentally, the tiny clip does not translate well to a higher RoF, and neither does the massive clip to a low rate of fire, at least not if you like reasonable amounts of fire time.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3318	Posted - 2013.09.17 06:19:00 - [18] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Roll back the 10% weapon buff that came in uprising. Bring back old aim assist, pre hotfix. Buff dispersion and recoil on everything. Bam. Fished. Fished?
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3431	Posted - 2013.09.24 18:31:00 - [19] - Quote I had intended to add a module on fittings but I haven't had time lately.