The reason I think the AR should have higher fitting costs than most weapons is because it has no real drawbacks. Better overall performance should equal higher overall fitting costs.

Not that I want the AR to have SCR type fitting costs, The SCR needs those high fitting costs to keep it from being stupidly overused, lest people start calling it OP.

I'm so excited right now, guys ...

OK, first the maths:
1.17M total SP in Shotguns
1.45M total SP in SMGs
0 SP in ARs

Just ran my first few matches with a BPO AR.
Hits as hard and reliably up close any Shotgun or SMG!
Seriously, shotgunners pose no threat whatsoever.
The only thing that kills me is a better AR.

No BS. No troll. I don't even have to line up my shots.
Running it just like a shotgun -- maybe a little more Rambo than usual.
Zero risk and all the reward!
As added bonus, I can melt folks halfway across the map!

The only drawback ...
There is none. It's totally free. It totally rocks.

Not trolling your thread. This weapon -- which I can't believe I haven't tried yet -- is gonna send my stats through the roof!

Thank you, good sir. I agree with your opinions.

Maybe it's my current distance from the game (haven't played for a good while) but those all seem to be solid opinions.

If I may ask, isn't the beginning of the Laser Rifle's optimal located at 65 meters? I hear that number passed around sometimes. And I'm fairly sure that there's a massive damage falloff at the end of the LR's optimal range, which your post doesn't quite indicate.

Of course, this stuff might've passed right over my head what with 1.4 coming in my absence. You'd be the more educated one in this case.

we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.)

A similiar conclsion I had in a recent post. was to nerf the price of guns and suits that were UP, so as to help soften the loss when yo get WTF pwn by an AR. which happens to my heavy suit alot.

Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns.
AR has low fitting cost that slows you to tank out you outfitt

I think the DPS of the breach AR and the full auto should be swapped.

the breach AR is garbage right now... low range, low fire rate, DPS.

if the full auto AR had all else equal but the DPS changed to 340 and the Breach had everything the same except its dps was buffed to 425 (or 467 as i fimrly beleive the 10% was not caked into the weapons), this would go a long way toward balance.

[quote=D legendary hero]
we all had verying onclusions (i want to outright nerf its dps, range and amo capacity.)

It doesn't excel at DPS, contrary to popular belief, so nerfing that makes it a subpar damage dealer. If you nerf its range then perhaps it does lose some of its ability to apply damage but combined with a DPS nerf then it makes the weapon unviable. Particularly when you then go on and nerf the ammo economy. Oh, and I seem to recall you wanted significant recoil added.

Agree on like everything one thing that you forgot is the fitting cost of the AR against other guns.
AR has low fitting cost that alows you to tank out you outfitt

ThatGÇÖs basicly what suggested in some other threads as well. Simply change the (DPS) stats if breach and assault (thhe breach should be the caldari mimic weapon and therefore have long range low dps.

But I think when the GAR gets the Range of the breach by maintaining the DPS the AsCR needs a look a well as both weapons have quite similar dps. So the GAR would need a slighty dps buff while keeping the damage per clip. Either a buff to Rof or a buff to Damage while reducing the Clipsize.

Or the AsCR needs a DPS nerf as wellGǪ.

*edit* The old damage (prior the 10% buff) for the Exile was 31 damage per shot so the 10% damage buff is already in the weapon stats.

This is exactly what happened to the flaylock. D. damage nerf, splash damage nerf, splash radius nerf (radius to a splash weapon is like range to a hit scan weapon) and ammo nerf...lol






My problem with it, is not only what i mentioned in my OP of the other post. but, that it renders all other ARs practically useless.

• full auto AR > breach why? marginally lower damage per shot, higher range, higher fire rate, better hip fire, higher dps
[467>340]

• full auto AR > burst. why? dps is much lower. due to the time between bursts. horrible at hipfire, and mediocre at range
• full auto > TAC. why? tact is still pretty decent. but, no where near as effective as the full auto at close -mid range encounters. dps is pretty pathetic comparably.

if the full auto gets its dps switched with the breach AR but the other stats remain the same it would be ok.

another suggestion i liked, was to keep everything the same but increase the CPU/PG to a litter higher than the scrambler rifle. making it harder to tank with them.

I mean right now a std caldari medium frame can tank shield extenders and armor plates, use a GEK have an adv SMG, grenades and drop uplinks. amassing 700+ ehp.
the idea is if your OFFense is going to be really good, then your DEFense should be weak. having both the best offense and the best defense is OP in and of itself.

This is a valid concern as well.

What did this add to the discussion, exactly? Did you actually read the post or just see an AR thread and come to complain about it?

Firstly, on your alleged STD Caldari medium frame fit - That's impossible. Even using stable drop uplinks, maxed skills, and a number of other resource cuts you can't come remotely close to fitting that on a standard suit. Even on an advanced frame you'd struggle to get those stats, at least without having a ton of non-repping armour deadweight.

I'm glad to see that you've realised that such a multi-faceted and heavy nerf would break another weapon. However, I'd really like to encourage you to look at other things than simple raw DPS. As you should understand as an HMG user, other factors such as dispersion can significantly affect weaponry, and that's what I'd advocate for the assault rifle.

The problem with the burst and breach ARs is less that the fully automatic variant overshadows them and more that they're simply bad. The TAR is still good in the right hands - fulfilling its role quite well as a longer ranged variant.

The burst mode of fire is simply terrible, as it's a draconian way of moderating your firing so you have much less control over it, while you do less damage per shot. Overall, the fire rate is also less, as though the full RPM takes effect during the burst, there's a forced break between the bursts.
The breach suffers from low rate of fire troubles in its apparently CQC role as well as its DPS. Bear in mind that even were the DPS values to be swapped, the breach would still suffer as it's forced into ranges where it's out damaged, while not having any flexibility - the thing that the AR is meant to specialise in, as quaint as that sounds. This ends up meaning it's not tactically viable.

I reiterate - The AR, at least in its current incarnation, is meant to be a jack of all trades. That's not achieved by nerfing the damage output - the damage output is on par with other weapons of its type. The main reason it excels is because of its strong ability to apply that damage.

This is exactly what happened to the flaylock. D. damage nerf, splash damage nerf, splash radius nerf (radius to a splash weapon is like range to a hit scan weapon) and ammo nerf...lol






My problem with it, is not only what i mentioned in my OP of the other post. but, that it renders all other ARs practically useless.

• full auto AR > breach why? marginally lower damage per shot, higher range, higher fire rate, better hip fire, higher dps
[467>340]

• full auto AR > burst. why? dps is much lower. due to the time between bursts. horrible at hipfire, and mediocre at range
• full auto > TAC. why? tact is still pretty decent. but, no where near as effective as the full auto at close -mid range encounters. dps is pretty pathetic comparably.

if the full auto gets its dps switched with the breach AR but the other stats remain the same it would be ok.

another suggestion i liked, was to keep everything the same but increase the CPU/PG to a litter higher than the scrambler rifle. making it harder to tank with them.

I mean right now a std caldari medium frame can tank shield extenders and armor plates, use a GEK have an adv SMG, grenades and drop uplinks. amassing 700+ ehp.
the idea is if your OFFense is going to be really good, then your DEFense should be weak. having both the best offense and the best defense is OP in and of itself.

but if CCP just switched the regular assault rifle, to the breach assault rifle, people would just buy the breach, if you already have a duvolle you have the sp to go and buy a breach? i'm guessing this is not what you meant by switching the DPS, but could you please clarify. (otherwise it is almost the same assault rifle with a different name.)

but if CCP just switched the regular assault rifle, to the breach assault rifle, people would just buy the breach, if you already have a duvolle you have the sp to go and buy a breach? i'm guessing this is not what you meant by switching the DPS, but could you please clarify. (otherwise it is almost the same assault rifle with a different name.)

Roll back the 10% weapon buff that came in uprising.

Bring back old aim assist, pre hotfix.

Buff dispersion and recoil on everything.

Bam. Fished.

Roll back the 10% weapon buff that came in uprising.

Bring back old aim assist, pre hotfix.

Buff dispersion and recoil on everything.

Bam. Fished.

This is a valid concern as well.

IGÇÖm a little baffled as to what youGÇÖre trying to say here. If youGÇÖre swapping the DPS stats of the breach and assault rifles, thatGÇÖs a significant nerf to the assault variant. Yet then you go on to talk about buffing the GARGÇÖs DPS?

I assume youGÇÖre trying to think of the necessary differences between racial weapons. ThatGÇÖs certainly a necessary consideration GÇô The ASCR and AR are currently very similar, with less than a few percent difference in DPS and range.

Addressing the idea of swapping the DPS stats GÇô

Straight out reducing the DPS of the assault rifle isnGÇÖt a very good idea. As seen in the statistics in the OP, the damage output of the weapon is similar to a number of other weapons, including sidearms. I understand it has a better damage application than those GÇô thatGÇÖs what I would suggest reducing, if anything, but the damage output isnGÇÖt notably higher than any other weapon. If the damage were to be nerfed, the archetype of short range high damage weaponry canGÇÖt be fulfilled by the assault rifle. To fit that archetype better, it would be a better idea to reduce the damage applicationof the assault rifle. Of course, if you simply swapped the stats then the breach could be a good deal closer to that ideal, but that hardly fits with what itGÇÖs meant to be GÇô A Caldari mimic, long range, low dps. I have to say I quite like the idea of a lower clip size on the GAR, though.

Perhaps if the ranges of the breach and assault rifles were swapped, then that would work. I personally dislike that solution as I see hard limiting mechanics on accuracy as bad mechanics (If youGÇÖre completely on target, then you should hit the target GÇô thatGÇÖs why I advocate making it harder to be on target) but it would certainly work. But bear in mind that bringing down the range that much brings the AR well into sidearm territory for ranges GÇô The scrambler pistol can outdps it significantly in that range, vastly more so if it scores headshots, as just one example.

The ASCR has to be nerfed equally with the GAR, yes, or itGÇÖll simply replace the AR. The only real reason the AR is seen more often is because of more frequent SP allocation and easier access. In this case, the damage application is acceptable for the theme of the weapon, but the DPS would be too high.

To summarise:
1.The breach wouldnGÇÖt fit the Caldari mimic ideal if the DPS was switched GÇô itGÇÖs much closer to the Gallente ideal. If the ranges were swapped, that would work better thematically.

2.Bringing down the range significantly would crush the current damage application advantage that the AR has GÇô but when pushed into sidearm range, the current DPS is outmatched significantly by most weapons in that range. Contrary to popular belief, as I hope I demonstrated in the OP, the DPS on the AR is not that stellar.

3.The ASCR must also be considered, as you rightly said (Unless IGÇÖm misinterpreting your post).

This is as much of a general points post as a response to your post tbh, because I was a little confused as to your initial viewpoint so I went off on a number of tangents.

+ähm after rereading I agree I guess I was a bit confused ^^. So to summerize basicly I want a GAR that has the Range of the Breach while keeping (or slighly buffing the DPS) and I want a breach with the current DPS but the Range of the current GAR. Man I really hate those mimic weapons ^^.

IMO CCP needs to release other weapon variants to compete with the AR instead of fidgeting with numbers right now. I know it's not feasible at the moment, but it would make more sense to release the variants then start giving each weapon an according niche.

Right now you're not left with many options in terms of "Assault" weapons. It's either the AR or the ScR. Even the variants of those are mostly crap (except TAC and Assault ScR). I'm an AR user and honestly don't care what they do with the weapon because people will still complain and whine on the forums about every little thing that kills them. ARs will still reign even if they nerf them and I bet you the complaints will go from "Nerf the AR!" to "Im still dying! Nerf it again!"