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Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
138
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Story time, kids!
There was once a game called Unreal Tournament. It had a very interesting selection of tools of carnage, one of which was the beloved Flak Cannon. It had 2 firing modes (a feature the modern FPS player has already forgotten), one was a honest to god shotgun of the baddest kind.
Now the other one was trickier.
The single round was slow, had a curved trajectory, and exploded on impact so hard that a direct hit would blow your ass to bits even at overcharged shield and armor. Reminds you of something?
Oh and it gets better! There was a peculiar weapon called the Shock Rifle. It also had 2 fire modes, a hitscan beam, doing little damage but knocked you back like a beast, and a slow ass ball of plasma that did a bit more damage but nothing to write home about. But here comes the good part! If you happen to hit the freshly fired ball with the beam, a fuckhueg explosion ensued, which mostly resulted in instakills and gibs galore.
Sounds pretty straight-forward right? Now here comes the fun part: People were doing this while travelling all 3 dimensions at ridiculous speeds, walljumping and dashing all over the place. And they were still hitting the ball, they were still faceshotting people with the flak in split seconds. And by split seconds I mean split seconds.
You ask how is that relevant to the topic subject?
The people that grew up on trickshotting through 2 different windows and a corridor are now in their mid 20s and got themselves a PS3. And they are using mouse and keyboard in DUST.
They are using mouse and keyboard, because they always did. These people grew up estimating curved trajectories and acceleration compensation while moving at 100 km/h in less than straight lines in Tribes.
So yeah, players that use mouse and keyboard do not tend to be better because they use mouse and keyboard. They tend to be better because they really are that good.
If you were playing FPS competetively before the dawn of the "modern shooter", you will most likely play competetively in DUST and wreck, simply because controller users are not accustomed to split second twitch headshot sprees and trickshots done without any kind of aim assist. They are physically unable to compete with KB/M.
And you would think, of all the games, in DUST people would step up their game in the face of fierce competition, right? Wrong, they-¦d rather QQ about bad bad nasty KB/Ms and their "unfair advantage".
Thank you for your attention, rant over. |
DR88VIPER Starrunner
Neanderthal Nation Public Disorder.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
i for 1 have been playing shooters with kb/m for ever even before the first ut ( which imo still is one of the best shooters ever), but i would not say that kb/m players have all that great advantage of it simply coz the whole game has been written to run on console thus not really making a kb/m interface. Also there is still to much broken within the core of the game mechanics to fully utilize the kb/m interface basically it sucks but imo it beats playing with a joypad. All i hope is that in the future ccp will take the time to properly write a kb/m interface so players who prefer a kb/m can actually play like there used to. |
bolsh lee
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
428
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly even if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
3394
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move.
Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1315
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Story time, kids!
There was once a game called Unreal Tournament. It had a very interesting selection of tools of carnage, one of which was the beloved Flak Cannon. It had 2 firing modes (a feature the modern FPS player has already forgotten), one was a honest to god shotgun of the baddest kind.
Now the other one was trickier.
The single round was slow, had a curved trajectory, and exploded on impact so hard that a direct hit would blow your ass to bits even at overcharged shield and armor. Reminds you of something?
Oh and it gets better! There was a peculiar weapon called the Shock Rifle. It also had 2 fire modes, a hitscan beam, doing little damage but knocked you back like a beast, and a slow ass ball of plasma that did a bit more damage but nothing to write home about. But here comes the good part! If you happen to hit the freshly fired ball with the beam, a fuckhueg explosion ensued, which mostly resulted in instakills and gibs galore.
Sounds pretty straight-forward right? Now here comes the fun part: People were doing this while travelling all 3 dimensions at ridiculous speeds, walljumping and dashing all over the place. And they were still hitting the ball, they were still faceshotting people with the flak in split seconds. And by split seconds I mean split seconds.
You ask how is that relevant to the topic subject?
The people that grew up on trickshotting through 2 different windows and a corridor are now in their mid 20s and got themselves a PS3. And they are using mouse and keyboard in DUST.
They are using mouse and keyboard, because they always did. These people grew up estimating curved trajectories and acceleration compensation while moving at 100 km/h in less than straight lines in Tribes.
So yeah, players that use mouse and keyboard do not tend to be better because they use mouse and keyboard. They tend to be better because they really are that good.
If you were playing FPS competetively before the dawn of the "modern shooter", you will most likely play competetively in DUST and wreck, simply because controller users are not accustomed to split second twitch headshot sprees and trickshots done without any kind of aim assist. They are physically unable to compete with KB/M.
And you would think, of all the games, in DUST people would step up their game in the face of fierce competition, right? Wrong, they-¦d rather QQ about bad bad nasty KB/Ms and their "unfair advantage".
Thank you for your attention, rant over.
Your post directly contradicts itself. |
bolsh lee
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
429
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move. Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly.
I'll belive it when I feel it, cause if you remember they said aiming was overhauled and improved for Uprising as well... We seen how that turned out.. |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
140
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:
Your post directly contradicts itself.
There comes usually the part where you support your claims. Just sayan. |
NOAMIzzzzz
BIG BAD W0LVES
18
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
lol i play with a controller and i beast mode aginst people and now that there fixing heavy turn speed i can **** even more. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
998
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move. Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly.
Actually... that isn't the problem..the problem is with raw input, the "fine aiming" that you should have with the mouse is been off because the turning restrictions, so for MONTHS it have feel like a "Virtual Joystick"... that have given DS3 users a huge advantage, and very **** off mouse users ...The aim fixes for the mouse + The "Aimbot" for the DS3 users, should make things fair and balance for everyone. |
Ynned Ivanova
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Theres only a handful of really good kb/m uses I've come across and to give them credit they pull off some great kills.
However, personally, I would never use one on a console. |
|
Orion Vahid
DUST University Ivy League
131
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dear DS3 users; don't worry, aim assist is coming back in 1.4 in case you just read the KB/M fixes in the patch notes and smashed the monitor |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1939
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Here is a question for you though.
With a similar amount of practice and experience, do you think those same people could have made those same shots on a gamepad?
I honestly doubt it... |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3415
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move. Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly. I wish I could believe that's what they're doing. I'm pretty sure no turn speed cap on mouse aim means NO turn speed cap, which means they can insta-spin all they want and sixaxis players will be (not for the first time) at a severe and blatantly unfair disadvantage.
I've been playing FPS games since Doom, and I went through Quake, Tribes, XS and UT (among others) along the way before I moved to primarily being a console gamer. I still play PC games occasionally, and some of them are shooters, but it isn't a common occurence for me these days. In spite of that, I know how those games work, I have been good at them in the past, and it wouldn't take long to get back up to speed.
But guess what? NONE OF THAT IS RELEVANT TO THE PROBLEM SIXAXIS USERS HAVE WITH MOUSE CONTROL.
Sure, there are some idiots saying that CCP shouldn't let people use mouse and keyboard. Those people are idiots, there's no denying that. But there are LEGITIMATE concerns about what CCP are doing to mouse control in 1.4, and those have NOTHING to do with how skilled or experienced you are.
A total noob on their first day playing a typical current-gen PC FPS can insta-180 with a mouse in most games because it's easy to do. They may not be able to line up that perfect headshot like a pro, but PC gamers know not to rely on the element of surprise, because it barely lasts the tiniest fraction of a second before the other player is shooting back. On consoles, the slower turning rates enforced by the sixaxis controller emphasise the stealthy approach of hitting from behind and keeping out of harm's way. We have to use other tactics to counter a backstabbing enemy, and those skills aren't nearly as valuable on PC as they are on console, because many of them are based around the same turn speed cap that makes it more difficult to get the attacker in your sights in the first place.
Neither set of skills makes a person a "better" or "worse" FPS player, but the two styles require very different skillsets.
There have been PC FPS games in the early days which had limited turn speed, and some of them enjoyed some success for a short time before being squashed by the big names that dominated the industry. In those games, you typically saw the same kind of tactics that are common in console shooters, because (obviously) they had the same rules.
DUST needs to balance the control schemes with turn speed caps. There is no way to have a console game with optional mouse and keyboard control and to have mouse turning totally unlimited without negating any sense of fairness in control schemes.
If they do what I'm expecting, I have a keyboard and mouse, so I'll still be able to play, but I will choose not to until they fix the game, because I play the game on my couch, and there isnt' a comfortable place for me to set up a mousepad and play the game. If necessary, I can do it, but it's not necessary. It's a GAME. Games are meant to be FUN, and if I have more FUN playing a game using my sixaxis controller, I'm going to do that instead of playing DUST, which forces me NOT to use it. |
Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
489
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tryhards will be tryhards. My gaming rig for PC and consoles are in the same room and I never once found the need to plug my kb/m to my PS3, if I wanted to play a PC game I would play a PC game.
Edit: Also I doubt they're keeping suit max rotation as thats the thing that kb/m users have been complaining about for months and the main reason for that "sluggish" feel when they try to turn 180 in a split second. Kinda sad CCP doesnt see a problem in putting kb/m users against DS3, gonna be one of their biggest competitive mistakes. |
Rage Racer
DUST University Irregulars
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Story time, kids!
There was once a game called Unreal Tournament. It had a very interesting selection of tools of carnage, one of which was the beloved Flak Cannon. It had 2 firing modes (a feature the modern FPS player has already forgotten), one was a honest to god shotgun of the baddest kind.
Now the other one was trickier.
The single round was slow, had a curved trajectory, and exploded on impact so hard that a direct hit would blow your ass to bits even at overcharged shield and armor. Reminds you of something?
Oh and it gets better! There was a peculiar weapon called the Shock Rifle. It also had 2 fire modes, a hitscan beam, doing little damage but knocked you back like a beast, and a slow ass ball of plasma that did a bit more damage but nothing to write home about. But here comes the good part! If you happen to hit the freshly fired ball with the beam, a fuckhueg explosion ensued, which mostly resulted in instakills and gibs galore.
Sounds pretty straight-forward right? Now here comes the fun part: People were doing this while travelling all 3 dimensions at ridiculous speeds, walljumping and dashing all over the place. And they were still hitting the ball, they were still faceshotting people with the flak in split seconds. And by split seconds I mean split seconds.
You ask how is that relevant to the topic subject?
The people that grew up on trickshotting through 2 different windows and a corridor are now in their mid 20s and got themselves a PS3. And they are using mouse and keyboard in DUST.
They are using mouse and keyboard, because they always did. These people grew up estimating curved trajectories and acceleration compensation while moving at 100 km/h in less than straight lines in Tribes.
So yeah, players that use mouse and keyboard do not tend to be better because they use mouse and keyboard. They tend to be better because they really are that good.
If you were playing FPS competetively before the dawn of the "modern shooter", you will most likely play competetively in DUST and wreck, simply because controller users are not accustomed to split second twitch headshot sprees and trickshots done without any kind of aim assist. They are physically unable to compete with KB/M.
And you would think, of all the games, in DUST people would step up their game in the face of fierce competition, right? Wrong, they-¦d rather QQ about bad bad nasty KB/Ms and their "unfair advantage".
Thank you for your attention, rant over.
To be honest, I don't think the difference between M/KB users is that big in DUST.
Sure, in fast paced games like UT, Q3A, Tribes, and all the others a M/KB user would wreck a controller user.
But since DUST is a rather slow paced game where teamwork and clever strategies are way more important than the fact if someone can precisely aim at the opponents head, I'd say it is more important to use a control scheme you are comfortable with and that supports your prefered playstyle and role on the battlefield.
I've played with many people who use a DS3 and they don't perform any worse - often times even better - than I do with a M/KB.
And if CCP can fix auto aiming the result will be that there is only a very small gap between DS3 and M/KB left, if at all.
In DUST so many things are more important than aiming. The M/KBs absolute superiority is a myth. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
998
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move. Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly. I wish I could believe that's what they're doing. I'm pretty sure no turn speed cap on mouse aim means NO turn speed cap, which means they can insta-spin all they want and sixaxis players will be (not for the first time) at a severe and blatantly unfair disadvantage. I've been playing FPS games since Doom, and I went through Quake, Tribes, XS and UT (among others) along the way before I moved to primarily being a console gamer. I still play PC games occasionally, and some of them are shooters, but it isn't a common occurence for me these days. In spite of that, I know how those games work, I have been good at them in the past, and it wouldn't take long to get back up to speed. But guess what? NONE OF THAT IS RELEVANT TO THE PROBLEM SIXAXIS USERS HAVE WITH MOUSE CONTROL. Sure, there are some idiots saying that CCP shouldn't let people use mouse and keyboard. Those people are idiots, there's no denying that. But there are LEGITIMATE concerns about what CCP are doing to mouse control in 1.4, and those have NOTHING to do with how skilled or experienced you are. A total noob on their first day playing a typical current-gen PC FPS can insta-180 with a mouse in most games because it's easy to do. They may not be able to line up that perfect headshot like a pro, but PC gamers know not to rely on the element of surprise, because it barely lasts the tiniest fraction of a second before the other player is shooting back. On consoles, the slower turning rates enforced by the sixaxis controller emphasise the stealthy approach of hitting from behind and keeping out of harm's way. We have to use other tactics to counter a backstabbing enemy, and those skills aren't nearly as valuable on PC as they are on console, because many of them are based around the same turn speed cap that makes it more difficult to get the attacker in your sights in the first place. Neither set of skills makes a person a "better" or "worse" FPS player, but the two styles require very different skillsets. There have been PC FPS games in the early days which had limited turn speed, and some of them enjoyed some success for a short time before being squashed by the big names that dominated the industry. In those games, you typically saw the same kind of tactics that are common in console shooters, because (obviously) they had the same rules. DUST needs to balance the control schemes with turn speed caps. There is no way to have a console game with optional mouse and keyboard control and to have mouse turning totally unlimited without negating any sense of fairness in control schemes. If they do what I'm expecting, I have a keyboard and mouse, so I'll still be able to play, but I will choose not to until they fix the game, because I play the game on my couch, and there isnt' a comfortable place for me to set up a mousepad and play the game. If necessary, I can do it, but it's not necessary. It's a GAME. Games are meant to be FUN, and if I have more FUN playing a game using my sixaxis controller, I'm going to do that instead of playing DUST, which forces me NOT to use it.
Talking like a real Pro ....You have any idea how hard is to instantly turn 180 degrees, then adjust your aim, and "maintain" that aim as you shooting ? Is not as easy as you making it sound ... it takes lots of practice.. and some kick ass reflexes. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
4640
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'm disturbed by the lack of Quake Arena in this topic. Back in my day, I had to rocket jump 10 miles just to get frags- over lava pits with air shot, before Propane Nightmares by Pendulum... |
IO Unbound
Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
I loved UT. I found my niche in the insta-gib arena, ctf and tdm.
The ladder system UT had would be a cool side game for Dust, imo. A small map 3vs3 dom or tdm ladder would be really fun in Dust. Good for nothing but bragging rights. You'd issue a challenge and have a week to get together and play the game. UT had separate ladders, from 1vs1, 2vs2, all the way up to full squads..... good times.
(Circa 1996, now I just feel old) haha |
IO Unbound
Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
I loved UT. I found my niche in the insta-gib arena, ctf and tdm.
The ladder system UT had would be a cool side game for Dust, imo. A small map 3vs3 dom or tdm ladder would be really fun in Dust. Good for nothing but bragging rights. You'd issue a challenge and have a week to get together and play the game. UT had separate ladders, from 1vs1, 2vs2, all the way up to full squads..... good times.
(Circa 1996, now I just feel old) haha |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3418
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Talking like a real Pro ... .You have any idea how hard is to instantly turn 180 degrees, then adjust your aim, and "maintain" that aim as you shooting ? Is not as easy as you making it sound ... it takes lots of practice.. and some kick ass reflexes. I do actually.
But I'm not talking about ADJUSTING and MAINTAINING aim, just getting there in the first place close enough to hit the target.
I actually addressed the fact that you still need to line your shots up for accuracy, if you bothered to read what I said. |
|
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1318
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:
Your post directly contradicts itself.
There comes usually the part where you support your claims. Just sayan.
Well your argument is that KB/M fps players have years more experience. Yet you give us examples of great feats of aiming from KB/M users back when their experience was equal to pad users today. If your argument was valid, there would be no "story time" for you to speak of, since KB/M players would be just as hopeless as your PC-elitism suggests pad users are today. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
999
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Talking like a real Pro ... .You have any idea how hard is to instantly turn 180 degrees, then adjust your aim, and "maintain" that aim as you shooting ? Is not as easy as you making it sound ... it takes lots of practice.. and some kick ass reflexes. I do actually. But I'm not talking about ADJUSTING and MAINTAINING aim, just getting there in the first place close enough to hit the target. I actually addressed the fact that you still need to line your shots up for accuracy, if you bothered to read what I said.
When i first started to use the 180 degrees turn trick ( Many Years Ago ) i use to "miss" my target allot... ether i use drop short, or go way pass....toke me lost of practice, and lots of mouse setting adjustments before i hit the "sweet spot"... then toke me lots of practice to learn how to adjust my aim instantly as i finished the turn... is not a easy trick to learn.. and not something that a "NooB" will do without some practice ...add to that the fact the isn't 180 degrees all the time.. (is not something that you can predict).. and you reliving allot on "Sounds" and "Intuition", a bit like a 6th sense . The point is... is not so much about the mouse itself, but knowledge that you have accumulated with years of practice...
Now... you talk me how a DS3 aimbot compares to that ? Years of practice and experience against something that is considered a cheat in PC games...The bottom line is ;
Is not the mouse that is killing you... it is the "player". |
P14GU3
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
357
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
So what about us old-school PC vets who used stix against kb/m even then?? Its just different. I agree with some that kb/m have a slight advantage in twitch shots, but I think DS3 has them on maneuverability any day. Its all preference |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3419
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
It took me less than 30 seconds to get the hang of quick-turning and stopping almost exactly on my target ready to line up a shot when I first picked up XS, which I got before Quake. I had to tweak the sensitivity on the mouse when I picked up Quake so it was comfortable, but once I did that, I was perfectly comfortable doing the same thing there almost immediately.
I don't see what your mention of "aimbots" has to do with this conversation, either. I don't use them, and even aim assist (which, contrary to popular delusion, is NOT the same thing) is something I usually turn off when given the choice. In the current state of DUST, I'm unfortunately forced to turn aim assist on, because CQC does weird things to my control sensitivity and breaks the game when I turn it off. Aim assist doesn't have time to kick in during most CQC battles in DUST, so other than turning off a glitch, it doesn't have much impact on my usual playstyle.
So... literally minutes of "practice and experience" for a computer-literate gamer being all that's required to hard-counter a valid tactic that's been learned, relearned, countered, and had the counters learned and anticipated with their own tactics. Yep, sounds fair. |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
150
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
How about tuning the Sixaxis up instead of mouse down?
Its called "stepping up your game" not "stepping down". |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1000
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:It took me less than 30 seconds to get the hang of quick-turning and stopping almost exactly on my target ready to line up a shot when I first picked up XS, which I got before Quake. I had to tweak the sensitivity on the mouse when I picked up Quake so it was comfortable, but once I did that, I was perfectly comfortable doing the same thing there almost immediately.
I don't see what your mention of "aimbots" has to do with this conversation, either. I don't use them, and even aim assist (which, contrary to popular delusion, is NOT the same thing) is something I usually turn off when given the choice. In the current state of DUST, I'm unfortunately forced to turn aim assist on, because CQC does weird things to my control sensitivity and breaks the game when I turn it off. Aim assist doesn't have time to kick in during most CQC battles in DUST, so other than turning off a glitch, it doesn't have much impact on my usual playstyle.
So... literally minutes of "practice and experience" for a computer-literate gamer being all that's required to hard-counter a valid tactic that's been learned, relearned, countered, and had the counters learned and anticipated with their own tactics. Yep, sounds fair.
EDIT: I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be able to use your mouse, or that you shouldn't be able to have the ability to turn at full speed with a mouse then shift immediately into precision aim just by changing how fast you're moving it. I just want mouse aim to be limited with the same turn speed cap that the sixaxis controller has, becase not having that is why the PS3 side of UT3 died, and is part of the reason why Shadowrun died. The other part is that instead of properly balancing the control schemes, they added aim assist that was FAR too effective (to the point where "aimbot" is probably appropriate).
That wasn't even the problem to start with... was the "Fine Aiming "that mouse users got **** off with... " Raw Input ". CCP completely nerfed the mouse.. instead of just "limiting" how fast you can turn the mouse. How a "Virtual Joystick" excuses the fact that "some" mouse users could instantly turn and kill someone... ?
But to finish this argument in a friendly note... lets just say that i agree with some of your "statements"... but not all. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
764
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
Garrett you are right on the money imo.
I believe DS3 does have an advantage in maneuvering. In conjunction with what is prolly going to be an aggressive aim assist the DS3 might do ok against kb/m. It's a wait-and-see kinda thing.
The rotation limit was a leveling factor between the two input systems.
CCP need to state clearly that they are also removing suit rotation physics from the DS3.
Anything else is madness and will bring yet another needless kittenpoop storm of biblical proportions. I know it's obvious, but given your track record.......don't say that nobody warned you CCP.
One last point: DS3 users enjoy using finely honed motor skills as much as the kb/m peeps do, CCP. But your decision and the mechanical differences between the input systems is effectively saying to the DS3 playerbase that we will be effectively relegated to using aim assist. I hope i'm wrong, but that's how i think it's going to play out. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
764
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:It took me less than 30 seconds to get the hang of quick-turning and stopping almost exactly on my target ready to line up a shot when I first picked up XS, which I got before Quake. I had to tweak the sensitivity on the mouse when I picked up Quake so it was comfortable, but once I did that, I was perfectly comfortable doing the same thing there almost immediately.
I don't see what your mention of "aimbots" has to do with this conversation, either. I don't use them, and even aim assist (which, contrary to popular delusion, is NOT the same thing) is something I usually turn off when given the choice. In the current state of DUST, I'm unfortunately forced to turn aim assist on, because CQC does weird things to my control sensitivity and breaks the game when I turn it off. Aim assist doesn't have time to kick in during most CQC battles in DUST, so other than turning off a glitch, it doesn't have much impact on my usual playstyle.
So... literally minutes of "practice and experience" for a computer-literate gamer being all that's required to hard-counter a valid tactic that's been learned, relearned, countered, and had the counters learned and anticipated with their own tactics. Yep, sounds fair.
EDIT: I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be able to use your mouse, or that you shouldn't be able to have the ability to turn at full speed with a mouse then shift immediately into precision aim just by changing how fast you're moving it. I just want mouse aim to be limited with the same turn speed cap that the sixaxis controller has, becase not having that is why the PS3 side of UT3 died, and is part of the reason why Shadowrun died. The other part is that instead of properly balancing the control schemes, they added aim assist that was FAR too effective (to the point where "aimbot" is probably appropriate). That wasn't even the problem to start with... was the "Fine Aiming "that mouse users got **** off with... " Raw Input ". CCP completely nerfed the mouse.. instead of just "limiting" how fast you can turn the mouse. How a "Virtual Joystick" excuses the fact that "some" mouse users could instantly turn and kill someone... ? But to finish this argument in a friendly note... lets just say that i agree with some of your "statements"... but not all. Probably not coincidentally, it was the fine aiming that DS3 users got ticked off with. And still are. |
Monty Mole Clone
Shiv M
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not, there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot...
whats this aimbot that you speak of? |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star. EoN.
937
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
TL;DR - KB/M users are master race and DS3 users are just physically and emotionally inferior and it has nothing to do with the otherwise accepted-by-the-whole-*******-world-idiot fact that KB/M is a better precision input device.
For being a page long, this topic was pretty useless.
|
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Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1000
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:It took me less than 30 seconds to get the hang of quick-turning and stopping almost exactly on my target ready to line up a shot when I first picked up XS, which I got before Quake. I had to tweak the sensitivity on the mouse when I picked up Quake so it was comfortable, but once I did that, I was perfectly comfortable doing the same thing there almost immediately.
I don't see what your mention of "aimbots" has to do with this conversation, either. I don't use them, and even aim assist (which, contrary to popular delusion, is NOT the same thing) is something I usually turn off when given the choice. In the current state of DUST, I'm unfortunately forced to turn aim assist on, because CQC does weird things to my control sensitivity and breaks the game when I turn it off. Aim assist doesn't have time to kick in during most CQC battles in DUST, so other than turning off a glitch, it doesn't have much impact on my usual playstyle.
So... literally minutes of "practice and experience" for a computer-literate gamer being all that's required to hard-counter a valid tactic that's been learned, relearned, countered, and had the counters learned and anticipated with their own tactics. Yep, sounds fair.
EDIT: I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be able to use your mouse, or that you shouldn't be able to have the ability to turn at full speed with a mouse then shift immediately into precision aim just by changing how fast you're moving it. I just want mouse aim to be limited with the same turn speed cap that the sixaxis controller has, becase not having that is why the PS3 side of UT3 died, and is part of the reason why Shadowrun died. The other part is that instead of properly balancing the control schemes, they added aim assist that was FAR too effective (to the point where "aimbot" is probably appropriate). That wasn't even the problem to start with... was the "Fine Aiming "that mouse users got **** off with... " Raw Input ". CCP completely nerfed the mouse.. instead of just "limiting" how fast you can turn the mouse. How a "Virtual Joystick" excuses the fact that "some" mouse users could instantly turn and kill someone... ? But to finish this argument in a friendly note... lets just say that i agree with some of your "statements"... but not all. Probably not coincidentally, it was the fine aiming that DS3 users got ticked off with. And still are.
You see... that is what i don't understand .. you can get a "good" gaming mouse, very, very cheap... if DS3 users think that the mouse if so superior, why is not everyone using one ? That is something that seriously annoys me... what is the logic with that ? You will spend lots of cash in SP boosters that give you an advantage... but not a mouse ? |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
764
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
Monty Mole Clone wrote:bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not, there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... whats this aimbot that you speak of? Ofc there was no aimbot(aim assist) in Uprising, but his brings up a good point.
This experience we've had in Uprising 1.0-1.3 is something we all need to remember.
It was a live test of DS3 without aim assist vs. kb/m with non-raw input. The DS3 users were unhappy with their input control curve and the kb/m users were unhappy with their input control curve, so let's call it even. Both were limited by the same suit rotation physics(at least in theory).
Was there a clear advantage of one over the other? You be the judge, but to me it looked neutral, all things considered.
Let's see how this compares with what we're about to experience in 1.4
P.S.: (CCP it would be so much easier to have this conversation if you would tell us what the control functions looked like for both input systems. What's the big secret anyway?) |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
764
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:29:00 -
[33] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:... That wasn't even the problem to start with... was the "Fine Aiming "that mouse users got **** off with... " Raw Input ". CCP completely nerfed the mouse.. instead of just "limiting" how fast you can turn the mouse. How a "Virtual Joystick" excuses the fact that "some" mouse users could instantly turn and kill someone... ? But to finish this argument in a friendly note... lets just say that i agree with some of your "statements"... but not all. Probably not coincidentally, it was the fine aiming that DS3 users got ticked off with. And still are. You see... that is what i don't understand .. you can get a "good" gaming mouse, very, very cheap... if DS3 users think that the mouse if so superior, why is not everyone using one ? That is something that seriously annoys me... what is the logic with that ? You will spend lots of cash in SP boosters that give you an advantage... but not a mouse ? It's nothing to do with money.
It's a console and prolly set up in a living room and there's prolly other peeps in the house using it and it's a giant pain in the ass to set up a kb/m or even just mouse for use on the couch.
Edit: And what i meant in my post by 'fine aiming' was the crappy input control curve CCP was using for the DS3. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1002
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:... That wasn't even the problem to start with... was the "Fine Aiming "that mouse users got **** off with... " Raw Input ". CCP completely nerfed the mouse.. instead of just "limiting" how fast you can turn the mouse. How a "Virtual Joystick" excuses the fact that "some" mouse users could instantly turn and kill someone... ? But to finish this argument in a friendly note... lets just say that i agree with some of your "statements"... but not all. Probably not coincidentally, it was the fine aiming that DS3 users got ticked off with. And still are. You see... that is what i don't understand .. you can get a "good" gaming mouse, very, very cheap... if DS3 users think that the mouse if so superior, why is not everyone using one ? That is something that seriously annoys me... what is the logic with that ? You will spend lots of cash in SP boosters that give you an advantage... but not a mouse ? It's nothing to do with money. It's a console and prolly set up in a living room and there's prolly other peeps in the house using it and it's a giant pain in the ass to set up a kb/m or even just mouse for use on the couch.
You hear about wireless technology ? .. I have a mouse and keyboard that i can use in my sofa....and even if that is a problem...you going to tell me that you don't have a "Desk" in your house ? A bad excuse, is a bad excuse ....if a mouse really give you a "huge" advantage, you will try harder. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
764
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
Actually, I have a desk. Where my PS3 is. Where my kb/m is. And all of my prior FPS experience is with kb/m. Do you have any other over-specific and totally irrelevant arguments? We're talking about the entire DS3 playerbase here.
|
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1002
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Actually, I have a desk. Where my PS3 is. Where my kb/m is. And all of my prior FPS experience is with kb/m. Do you have any other over-specific and totally irrelevant arguments? We're talking about the entire DS3 playerbase here.
We talking about the entire "PS3" playerbase... and everyone can have ether DS3 Or Mouse... even both of them if you want too... DS3 / Mouse combo... hell.. you can even have a "DS3 / Keyboard / mouse combo" if you very want too. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3423
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
I'm just going to point out that the only problem I had with the old mouse control (where they used raw input) was when there were glitches allowing mouse users to circumvent the turn speed cap, or when they blatantly removed it at one point.
The fine aim complaint is NOT a problem because it's balanced by the precision movement allowed by the left stick, which WASD movement will never match.
A good player with a sixaxis controller and competently-implemented controls (which are unfortunately lacking in DUST on our end as well) can handle fine aim perfectly fine.
I don't want them to keep mouse aim in the current state, and have never, at any point, said that I do want that. I want them to FIX mouse aim, not break it in the opposite direction like they keep doing. They go from one extreme to the other constantly. The controls for sixaxis are still problematic, and the controls for mouse aim get broken in different ways with every revision.
I hope they fix the mistakes they made and make it so mouse aiming works properly, but I don't want a repeat of the last time players were using a mouse without a turn speed cap, because it's been game-breaking before, and it will be game-breaking again. |
pseudosnipre
DUST University Ivy League
136
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
I was under the impression that DS3 translates your inputs to the game accurately...
I know that KB/M does not, although it sounds like 1.4 may fix that.
"This game isn't fair." ~Virtual Joystick/KBm users ~Pub-stomped Noobs ~Dropship Pilots ~Scouts ~Nova Knifers ~Heavies ~Indie Corps ~Assault FG Victims ~Murder-taxi victims ~Anyone on a foreign server for PC
and re-introducing: ~DS3 users
Uh-oh, it looks like DS3 users may be at the bottom of the list now that CCP threw (future tense) them an auto-aim bone...
Also, those that migrated to KB/M from DS3 simply aren't on here complaining about the gap...just like they didn't complain when their FP/logi suit got nerfed.
They adapted. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1002
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:03:00 -
[39] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:I'm just going to point out that the only problem I had with the old mouse control (where they used raw input) was when there were glitches allowing mouse users to circumvent the turn speed cap, or when they blatantly removed it at one point.
The fine aim complaint is NOT a problem because it's balanced by the precision movement allowed by the left stick, which WASD movement will never match.
A good player with a sixaxis controller and competently-implemented controls (which are unfortunately lacking in DUST on our end as well) can handle fine aim perfectly fine.
I don't want them to keep mouse aim in the current state, and have never, at any point, said that I do want that. I want them to FIX mouse aim, not break it in the opposite direction like they keep doing. They go from one extreme to the other constantly. The controls for sixaxis are still problematic, and the controls for mouse aim get broken in different ways with every revision.
I hope they fix the mistakes they made and make it so mouse aiming works properly, but I don't want a repeat of the last time players were using a mouse without a turn speed cap, because it's been game-breaking before, and it will be game-breaking again.
That i can agree with... i never been a fan of the "instant turn kill" thing.. not even in PC games. But the mouse shouldn't feel like a virtual analog controller ... that is just wrong. |
pseudosnipre
DUST University Ivy League
137
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:I'm just going to point out that the only problem I had with the old mouse control (where they used raw input) was when there were glitches allowing mouse users to circumvent the turn speed cap, or when they blatantly removed it at one point.
The fine aim complaint is NOT a problem because it's balanced by the precision movement allowed by the left stick, which WASD movement will never match.
A good player with a sixaxis controller and competently-implemented controls (which are unfortunately lacking in DUST on our end as well) can handle fine aim perfectly fine.
I don't want them to keep mouse aim in the current state, and have never, at any point, said that I do want that. I want them to FIX mouse aim, not break it in the opposite direction like they keep doing. They go from one extreme to the other constantly. The controls for sixaxis are still problematic, and the controls for mouse aim get broken in different ways with every revision.
I hope they fix the mistakes they made and make it so mouse aiming works properly, but I don't want a repeat of the last time players were using a mouse without a turn speed cap, because it's been game-breaking before, and it will be game-breaking again. That i can agree with... i never been a fan of the "instant turn kill" thing.. not even in PC games. But the mouse shouldn't feel like a virtual analog controller ... that is just wrong. DS3 felt like I was driving my clone like a boat...input lag was terrible.
I'm ok w/ auto-aim for DS3 provided it migrates toward the body instead of the head. I'm also ok with scouts not having a rotation cap. |
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Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2433
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote: You see... that is what i don't understand .. you can get a "good" gaming mouse, very, very cheap... if DS3 users think that the mouse if so superior, why is not everyone using one ? That is something that seriously annoys me... what is the logic with that ? You will spend lots of cash in SP boosters that give you an advantage... but not a mouse ?
Because everything isn't always about what gives you the biggest min/max advantage. Many people prefer using a gamepad.
If you can't see the difference between gamepad and uncapped KBM, you probably suck at FPS. Considering I'm relatively sure you don't suck at FPS, I have to assume that you can see the difference and are just looking to argue.
IMO, FPS is more fun with the DS3 than with a KBM, but "fun" is obviously subjective. Sure, it's less precise, but if everyone has the same limitations on their precision (from having to use the DS3) then it is a moot point. Once we add KBM into the picture things get muddied. The problem here is that this is a console title, and thus it's safe to assume that most people who are likely to play Dust 514 are in agreement with me on this one.
If the caps for KBM are removed, what you are suggesting is exactly what is going to happen. All of the good players will learn to use KBM (or stop being a "good player"), and all the "normal" PS3 people will be put at a huge disadvantage. The gameplay will change in a fundamental way. Less thought will be given to positioning and FOV, and more on twitch reaction and a person's ability to do the 180 Twist and Wiggle.
That's fine for anybody who wants to play a PC style KBM FPS, but how many PS3 users do you honestly think fall into that category? You think the playerbase is small now? Just wait until this is a game where you have to plug in a Keyboard and Mouse just to keep up. Yeah, that should really excite the target demographic. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1004
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:Panther Alpha wrote: You see... that is what i don't understand .. you can get a "good" gaming mouse, very, very cheap... if DS3 users think that the mouse if so superior, why is not everyone using one ? That is something that seriously annoys me... what is the logic with that ? You will spend lots of cash in SP boosters that give you an advantage... but not a mouse ?
Because everything isn't always about what gives you the biggest min/max advantage. Many people prefer using a gamepad. If you can't see the difference between gamepad and uncapped KBM, you probably suck at FPS. Considering I'm relatively sure you don't suck at FPS, I have to assume that you can see the difference and are just looking to argue. IMO, FPS is more fun with the DS3 than with a KBM, but "fun" is obviously subjective. Sure, it's less precise, but if everyone has the same limitations on their precision (from having to use the DS3) then it is a moot point. Once we add KBM into the picture things get muddied. The problem here is that this is a console title, and thus it's safe to assume that most people who are likely to play Dust 514 are in agreement with me on this one. If the caps for KBM are removed, what you are suggesting is exactly what is going to happen. All of the good players will learn to use KBM (or stop being a "good player"), and all the "normal" PS3 people will be put at a huge disadvantage. The gameplay will change in a fundamental way. Less thought will be given to positioning and FOV, and more on twitch reaction and a person's ability to do the 180 Twist and Wiggle. That's fine for anybody who wants to play a PC style KBM FPS, but how many PS3 users do you honestly think fall into that category? You think the playerbase is small now? Just wait until this is a game where you have to plug in a Keyboard and Mouse just to keep up. Yeah, that should really excite the target demographic.
I already agreed that the 180 kill switch shouldn't be allow ... but Fine Aiming is a completely different thing.
Garrett Blacknova wrote:I'm just going to point out that the only problem I had with the old mouse control (where they used raw input) was when there were glitches allowing mouse users to circumvent the turn speed cap, or when they blatantly removed it at one point.
The fine aim complaint is NOT a problem because it's balanced by the precision movement allowed by the left stick, which WASD movement will never match.
A good player with a sixaxis controller and competently-implemented controls (which are unfortunately lacking in DUST on our end as well) can handle fine aim perfectly fine.
I don't want them to keep mouse aim in the current state, and have never, at any point, said that I do want that. I want them to FIX mouse aim, not break it in the opposite direction like they keep doing. They go from one extreme to the other constantly. The controls for sixaxis are still problematic, and the controls for mouse aim get broken in different ways with every revision.
I hope they fix the mistakes they made and make it so mouse aiming works properly, but I don't want a repeat of the last time players were using a mouse without a turn speed cap, because it's been game-breaking before, and it will be game-breaking again.
Quote:That i can agree with... i never been a fan of the "instant turn kill" thing.. not even in PC games. But the mouse shouldn't feel like a virtual analog controller ... that is just wrong. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
271
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I'm disturbed by the lack of Quake Arena in this topic. Back in my day, I had to rocket jump 10 miles just to get frags- over lava pits with air shot, before Propane Nightmares by Pendulum...
oh god, memories of training railgun gun play against the end boss of q3a.
back on topic: my KDR tripled once I swapped to KBM. Then again, it wasn't stellar beforehand. |
Medical Crash
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC RUST415
132
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Is the DS3 sensitivity being fixed? To be the best shotgunner, you have to learn how to not use Aim Assist. I just want finer tune controls, and more sensitivity for my controller. I could care less about Aim Assist. If CCP doesn't fix aiming for us, staying with the controller will NOT be an option. We'll have to go to the M\KB if we want to be the best.
If they don't fix this in 1.4 then I'm gone, FFXIV:ARR is there and works fine, besides some annoying server issues, but the game and controls themselves work fine.
There have been many people who have been loyal and stuck around buying Aurumn, waiting for you to fix this game. Bad controls make many of us mad, I can take my weak Minmatar suit, MD spam, and Tank spam in Ambush just fine. But when I want to shotgun, something so minor- yet I find it near impossible because the DS3 controls have been so sh****. The guy who made them that way should be fired, did you even compare what you did to other games? I put in BF3 and SG on there, then come back to DUST and the shoddy crappy controls will drive you bonkers.
Last chance CCP, what are you doing?
Will try 1.4 when it releases, I do hope you have fixed it. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3429
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
pseudosnipre wrote:I was under the impression that DS3 translates your inputs to the game accurately... Last time I actually tested it, nope. There were 2 options:
1. Aim assist on. 2. Kittened up acceleration curve that gets worse if there's an enemy in Shotgun range.
Option 1 means that whenever an enemy runs across your crosshairs, your aim tries to follow them, and when mutliple enemies are near your crosshairs, you never know which one the game is going to want you to aim at and try to chase for you.
Option 2 means that, depending on your control sensitivity, tilting the right stick will start you off relatively slowly, and gradually ramp speed up over a short time, with your starting point set by the sensitivity you chose. With aim assist off, how far you tilt the stick doesn't make as much of a difference as how long you keep it tilted for. Holding it steady just barely beyond the (still too wide) deadzone doesn't give you a constant slow pan. It starts you off in a slow pan and gradually speeds up, then starts to increase speed more, then jumps to max turn speed really sharply. It also means that when there's an enemy close enough to you, no matter how much or little you tilt the stick, you turn at such a ridiculous speed that you'll be lucky to line up a shot on an abandoned tank.
I do still need to test just how bad this gets after the 1.3 update, but I know there's still acceleration and there's still the CQC glitch with aim assist off. |
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 05:37:00 -
[46] - Quote
You're on a console. Most people who use consoles never switch from the default control system.
Hence KB/M will always be the backseat baby... get used to it or use the Pad... |
Turtle Hermit Roshi
Famous.OTF Only The Famous
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
too true Q-Q
|
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
160
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
I've played with KBM, the Move Motion Controller (which I bought just to try it out), and the DS3.
The aiming with the mouse is astronomical (much better than the shakey Move Controller), I mean huge, as in it upped my game to break a previous k/d barrier I was having, to the point where I actually do a mouse and DS3 combination to secure constant head shots. The only reason why I still cling to the DS3 is because I am also working on my piloting, which the DS3 does a lot smoother due to actually benefiting from its own deadzone in this particular case.
|
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
156
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:08:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:You're on a console. Most people who use consoles never switch from the default control system.
Hence KB/M will always be the backseat baby... get used to it or use the Pad...
Could you please elaborate on why I, or anyone else for that matter, should care what the majority of players is using? How does that affect ones performance in any way whatsoever? |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:I've played with KBM, the Move Motion Controller (which I bought just to try it out), and the DS3.
The aiming with the mouse is astronomical (much better than the shakey Move Controller), I mean huge, as in it upped my game to break a previous k/d barrier I was having, to the point where I actually do a mouse and DS3 combination to secure constant head shots. The only reason why I still cling to the DS3 is because I am also working on my piloting, which the DS3 does a lot smoother due to actually benefiting from its own deadzone in this particular case.
The mouse is a direct input device, of course is going to be more responsive...but constant head shots with the current mouse setup ? You see, now i know you trolling...if you stopped on a "better K/D ratio" it will been more believable... even that i seriously dough that is the case. According to some of you guys...( Mega Trolls ) the mouse instantly makes people Pro-Players just by touching it....actually.. no... if you "look at it", you instantly become a FPS god. |
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Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
1306
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move. Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly. I wish I could believe that's what they're doing. I'm pretty sure no turn speed cap on mouse aim means NO turn speed cap, which means they can insta-spin all they want and sixaxis players will be (not for the first time) at a severe and blatantly unfair disadvantage. I've been playing FPS games since Doom, and I went through Quake, Tribes, XS and UT (among others) along the way before I moved to primarily being a console gamer. I still play PC games occasionally, and some of them are shooters, but it isn't a common occurence for me these days. In spite of that, I know how those games work, I have been good at them in the past, and it wouldn't take long to get back up to speed. But guess what? NONE OF THAT IS RELEVANT TO THE PROBLEM SIXAXIS USERS HAVE WITH MOUSE CONTROL. Sure, there are some idiots saying that CCP shouldn't let people use mouse and keyboard. Those people are idiots, there's no denying that. But there are LEGITIMATE concerns about what CCP are doing to mouse control in 1.4, and those have NOTHING to do with how skilled or experienced you are. A total noob on their first day playing a typical current-gen PC FPS can insta-180 with a mouse in most games because it's easy to do. They may not be able to line up that perfect headshot like a pro, but PC gamers know not to rely on the element of surprise, because it barely lasts the tiniest fraction of a second before the other player is shooting back. On consoles, the slower turning rates enforced by the sixaxis controller emphasise the stealthy approach of hitting from behind and keeping out of harm's way. We have to use other tactics to counter a backstabbing enemy, and those skills aren't nearly as valuable on PC as they are on console, because many of them are based around the same turn speed cap that makes it more difficult to get the attacker in your sights in the first place. Neither set of skills makes a person a "better" or "worse" FPS player, but the two styles require very different skillsets. There have been PC FPS games in the early days which had limited turn speed, and some of them enjoyed some success for a short time before being squashed by the big names that dominated the industry. In those games, you typically saw the same kind of tactics that are common in console shooters, because (obviously) they had the same rules. DUST needs to balance the control schemes with turn speed caps. There is no way to have a console game with optional mouse and keyboard control and to have mouse turning totally unlimited without negating any sense of fairness in control schemes. If they do what I'm expecting, I have a keyboard and mouse, so I'll still be able to play, but I will choose not to until they fix the game, because I play the game on my couch, and there isnt' a comfortable place for me to set up a mousepad and play the game. If necessary, I can do it, but it's not necessary. It's a GAME. Games are meant to be FUN, and if I have more FUN playing a game using my sixaxis controller, I'm going to do that instead of playing DUST, which forces me NOT to use it.
tv tray like a baws |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
157
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:According to some of you guys...( Mega Trolls ) the mouse instantly makes people Pro-Players just by touching it....
Actually, yes.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ms-killed-pc-xbox-cross-platform-play
Eurogamer wrote: "There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment.
"Personally I wish it would have stayed the course. I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their 'console' controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse.
"The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the Xbox team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative. Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"
|
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:25:00 -
[53] - Quote
I will also like to add to this thread... that CCP is also completely removing aim-assist from the mouse in the 1.4 update.. some of the NooBs that actually think that they are good with the mouse right now, are going to be a bit shock. |
Toyboi
Seraphim Initiative..
106
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
Doc Noah wrote:Tryhards will be tryhards. My gaming rig for PC and consoles are in the same room and I never once found the need to plug my kb/m to my PS3, if I wanted to play a PC game I would play a PC game.
Edit: Also I doubt they're keeping suit max rotation as thats the thing that kb/m users have been complaining about for months and the main reason for that "sluggish" feel when they try to turn 180 in a split second. Kinda sad CCP doesnt see a problem in putting kb/m users against DS3, gonna be one of their biggest competitive mistakes. so when you get a super controller with extra strings and buttoms thats okay? there is some expensive moded controlers out there! tell me the difference between tryhards who has such a controller and tryhards with kb/m! |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
157
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:I will also like to add to this thread... that CCP is also completely removing aim-assist from the mouse in the 1.4 update.. some of the NooBs that actually think that they are good with the mouse right now, are going to be a bit shock. Aim assist is turned off for everyone since 1.3 buddy. |
Kasote Denzara
A Vulture
221
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
I'm only here because of one of the last greats of FPS was mentioned.
Unreal Tournament, the true king of first person shooters.
(Right above Duck Hunt.) |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3443
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:If they do what I'm expecting, I have a keyboard and mouse, so I'll still be able to play, but I will choose not to until they fix the game, because I play the game on my couch, and there isnt' a comfortable place for me to set up a mousepad and play the game. If necessary, I can do it, but it's not necessary. It's a GAME. Games are meant to be FUN, and if I have more FUN playing a game using my sixaxis controller, I'm going to do that instead of playing DUST, which forces me NOT to use it. tv tray like a baws I've got better than a TV tray, but I usually use it for either a plate of food or my laptop. Adding a mouse and keyboard would get in the way of my usual setup. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:I will also like to add to this thread... that CCP is also completely removing aim-assist from the mouse in the 1.4 update.. some of the NooBs that actually think that they are good with the mouse right now, are going to be a bit shock. Aim assist is turned off for everyone since 1.3 buddy.
Isn't working as an "Aimbot" right now... but it is there...what ?... you didn't notice the miracle kills that you get sometimes when you not even aiming at you target directly ? Because i do.... |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
1173
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
If mouse is allowed the unlimited turning speed it has then its all over
yolo420swagquicknoscoping will be in
I play PC games and the mouse does allow BS shots and instant turning around but i prefer the DS3, in fact i feel PC games can be bogged down with the control scheme on a KB
Like a played PS2 over the weeked and hated it, still not optimized but quite a few controls to it and i dont have 7 fingers and its the same with Warframe which is very ******* good for a beta and i feel the controls would be better with a pad but maybe because im so used to a pad and not to a KB, i can do the basics on a KB and it does take some getting used to and i dont think i would ever be happy with a KB apart from the movement keys,its all the other keys which annoy me
The KB itself is a clumsy tbh, sure you can customize it but its the mouse which is the real problem/solution since it requires pin point aim that said i cant deal with KB+M for DUST
I use KB for DUST when tanking but i use the DS3 for aiming and activating modules because its all in 1 place, i dont have to really stretch my hand across a KB
Now if you could use a customizable mouse and have several buttons on the mouse for various things like activating mods and it was simple and easy to do then maybe i would do that but DUST isnt config for that where as that option is availible for PC games
To truly balance it will be hard without gimping the mouse |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
157
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:36:00 -
[60] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:
Isn't working as an "Aimbot" right now... but it is there...what ?... you didn't notice the miracle kills that you get sometimes when you not even aiming at you target directly ? Because i do....
I turn off aim assist in any game by default. So no, I dont have miracle kills. |
|
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:41:00 -
[61] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:
Isn't working as an "Aimbot" right now... but it is there...what ?... you didn't notice the miracle kills that you get sometimes when you not even aiming at you target directly ? Because i do....
I turn off aim assist in any game by default. So no, I dont have miracle kills.
Right... that is what most "good" mouse users do, which is why that option is going to be completely remove from the mouse. Allot of people that thinks that they are Pro-players with the mouse, are going to be a bit shock. CCP is very good at creating illusions, and then taking them away from you... |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
157
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:07:00 -
[62] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote: Well your argument is that KB/M fps players have years more experience. Yet you give us examples of great feats of aiming from KB/M users back when their experience was equal to pad users today. If your argument was valid, there would be no "story time" for you to speak of, since KB/M players would be just as hopeless as your PC-elitism suggests pad users are today.
Forgot about that one.
The average PC FPS player in his 20s is accustomed to fast games. The average console FPS player in his 20s is accustomed to hectic games.
Hectic =/= fast. Its just that, hectic. So yeah, you may attribute that to PC elitism, but ye olden PC FPS players were required to show more skill because the element of luck, which is hectic, was way less present than the element of speed.
In that way DUST takes a step above the average modern FPS, in that it is more deliberate that hectic. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:19:00 -
[63] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:According to some of you guys...( Mega Trolls ) the mouse instantly makes people Pro-Players just by touching it.... Actually, yes. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ms-killed-pc-xbox-cross-platform-playEurogamer wrote: "There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment.
"Personally I wish it would have stayed the course. I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their 'console' controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse.
"The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the Xbox team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative. Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"
Quote:"Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"
Is not conclusive why MS stopped the project ... it could easily been because Console gamer's are just lazy, and they just don't like to "Work Hard" to win.
No ones in the full Article they said that was because the "KB/M" specifically. |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
157
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Beeeees wrote: "Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"
Is not conclusive why MS stopped the project ... it could easily been because Console gamer's are just lazy, and they just don't like to "Work Hard" to win. No ones in the full Article they said that was because the "KB/M" specifically.
Occam-¦s Razor |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:52:00 -
[65] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Beeeees wrote: "Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"
Is not conclusive why MS stopped the project ... it could easily been because Console gamer's are just lazy, and they just don't like to "Work Hard" to win. No ones in the full Article they said that was because the "KB/M" specifically. Occam-¦s Razor
But... my theory is the simplest of the competing theories... so by that logic, i am right and you are wrong ? |
Rei Shepard
Spectre II
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:59:00 -
[66] - Quote
bolsh lee wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot... This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move. Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly. I'll belive it when I feel it, cause if you remember they said aiming was overhauled and improved for Uprising as well... We seen how that turned out..
Yeupz!
It made me retire lol!
The first thing that went trough my mind when i launched 1.2's aiming upgrades, was my opponents bullet, while i was trying to keep my gun steady after snorthing 40 lines of Coke, inhaling Crack instead of oxcygen all the while having 98% pure alcohol injectior needles hooked into the back of my eyes and they had fit dropship afterburner injector nozzles to do the trick.
Yoda Says : Much upgrade that has been... |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
767
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 13:01:00 -
[67] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Beeeees wrote: "Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"
Is not conclusive why MS stopped the project ... it could easily been because Console gamer's are just lazy, and they just don't like to "Work Hard" to win. No ones in the full Article they said that was because the "KB/M" specifically. Occam-¦s Razor +1 for a thinking man drawing the simplest and most reasonable conclusion. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
767
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 13:03:00 -
[68] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Beeeees wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Beeeees wrote: "Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"
Is not conclusive why MS stopped the project ... it could easily been because Console gamer's are just lazy, and they just don't like to "Work Hard" to win. No ones in the full Article they said that was because the "KB/M" specifically. Occam-¦s Razor But... my theory is the simplest of the competing theories... so by that logic, i am right and you are wrong ? Your theory is deeply embedded in you personal gaming ideology, methinks, and resists evidence to the contrary. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 13:13:00 -
[69] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Beeeees wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:Beeeees wrote: "Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"
Is not conclusive why MS stopped the project ... it could easily been because Console gamer's are just lazy, and they just don't like to "Work Hard" to win. No ones in the full Article they said that was because the "KB/M" specifically. Occam-¦s Razor But... my theory is the simplest of the competing theories... so by that logic, i am right and you are wrong ? Your theory is deeply embedded in you personal gaming ideology, methinks, and resists evidence to the contrary.
With a Keyboard and mouse you using practically you full upper torso... both hands, all you fingers, both of you arms, shoulders, and neck... you brain have to work twice as hard to coordinate all the fingers in BOTH of you hands, constantly none stop.
With the DS3 you using 4 fingers .... that is all....most of the "Hard Work " is done for you... without even thinking about it.
So it is "Logical", that the DS3 will eventually make you brain lazy.. compared to the busy mental activity that you have with the KB/M.
It's Elementary, My Dear Watson.... |
Sleepy Shadow
L.O.T.I.S.
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:22:00 -
[70] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:With a Keyboard and mouse you using practically you full upper torso... both hands, all you fingers, both of you arms, shoulders, and neck... you brain have to work twice as hard to coordinate all the fingers in BOTH of you hands, constantly none stop.
With the DS3 you using 4 fingers .... that is all....most of the "Hard Work " is done for you... without even thinking about it.
So it is "Logical", that the DS3 will eventually make you brain lazy.. compared to the busy mental activity that you have with the KB/M.
It's Elementary, My Dear Watson....
What kind of creepy console players have you met?
I have no idea how I could be using a controller if I didnGÇÖt use my upper torso, both hands, all my fingers, both my arms, shoulders and my neck. Do you think we lie down placidly on our sides using four fingers to somehow move the controller? What? How? Maybe some people have these awesome controllers that hold them upright and move their hands for them, but I sure donGÇÖt have one. I use six fingers to move and whatnot (thumbs on sticks/buttons, index fingers L1/R1, middle fingers L2/R2) and the other four are actually holding the controller in my hands. If I let go of those, the controller has this funny habit of falling from my hands.
And what comes to KB/M and controller debate, the mouse will always be superior as your hand-eye coordination is better than your thumb-eye coordination. It is easier to follow a target using your entire hand instead of just your thumb. My problem is not with the mouse, I can aim that perfectly fine, my problem is with the keyboard. I donGÇÖt find it comfortable and I donGÇÖt have anywhere I could actually put it while I play, nor the mouse for that matter. I have desk that is on the other side of the room and for me to use it I would have to change everything around. But thatGÇÖs not the biggest issue; my biggest issue is that I have no interest in playing at a desk. I play console games to sit on my couch comfortably, not at a desk where I already have to spend most of my day (working at an office). When I come home I want none of that.
|
|
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:30:00 -
[71] - Quote
Sleepy Shadow wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:With a Keyboard and mouse you using practically you full upper torso... both hands, all you fingers, both of you arms, shoulders, and neck... you brain have to work twice as hard to coordinate all the fingers in BOTH of you hands, constantly none stop.
With the DS3 you using 4 fingers .... that is all....most of the "Hard Work " is done for you... without even thinking about it.
So it is "Logical", that the DS3 will eventually make you brain lazy.. compared to the busy mental activity that you have with the KB/M.
It's Elementary, My Dear Watson.... What kind of creepy console players have you met? I have no idea how I could be using a controller if I didnGÇÖt use my upper torso, both hands, all my fingers, both my arms, shoulders and my neck. Do you think we lie down placidly on our sides using four fingers to somehow move the controller? What? How? Maybe some people have these awesome controllers that hold them upright and move their hands for them, but I sure donGÇÖt have one. I use six fingers to move and whatnot (thumbs on sticks/buttons, index fingers L1/R1, middle fingers L2/R2) and the other four are actually holding the controller in my hands. If I let go of those, the controller has this funny habit of falling from my hands. And what comes to KB/M and controller debate, the mouse will always be superior as your hand-eye coordination is better than your thumb-eye coordination. It is easier to follow a target using your entire hand instead of just your thumb. My problem is not with the mouse, I can aim that perfectly fine, my problem is with the keyboard. I donGÇÖt find it comfortable and I donGÇÖt have anywhere I could actually put it while I play, nor the mouse for that matter. I have desk that is on the other side of the room and for me to use it I would have to change everything around. But thatGÇÖs not the biggest issue; my biggest issue is that I have no interest in playing at a desk. I play console games to sit on my couch comfortably, not at a desk where I already have to spend most of my day (working at an office). When I come home I want none of that.
I can use my DS3 laying down in my couch... but is NOT way i can do that with my Keyboard and mouse...well.. not very effectively anyway...This is a losing argument. Doesn't matter how you look at it...the DS3 is design for "commodity"... not "efficiency". |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3449
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:32:00 -
[72] - Quote
Little fingers hooked under controller for support, with palms gripping. Ring fingers on L2/R2. Middle fingers on L1/R1. Index fingers on d-pad and face buttons. Thumbs on sticks. Controller held above lap while sitting up straight.
Pretty sure I'm using more than just 4 fingers like that.
Alternatively, AC Grip. Thumbs on shoulder buttons. Index and middle fingers on face buttons. Ring fingers on sticks. Little fingers and palms supporting controller.
As opposed to how I used to play PC FPS games.
Slumped across a chair with a beanbag on it, hand resting on the edge of table, with fingers on keyboard, and my other hand reting on the mouse only needing to slide around, not holding anything up with any part of my body except my neck.
Yep. Console gaming is definitely the "lazy" option. That's why I do it. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:45:00 -
[73] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Little fingers hooked under controller for support, with palms gripping. Ring fingers on L2/R2. Middle fingers on L1/R1. Index fingers on d-pad and face buttons. Thumbs on sticks. Controller held above lap while sitting up straight. Pretty sure I'm using more than just 4 fingers like that. Alternatively, AC Grip. Thumbs on shoulder buttons. Index and middle fingers on face buttons. Ring fingers on sticks. Little fingers and palms supporting controller. As opposed to how I used to play PC FPS games. Slumped across a chair with a beanbag on it, hand resting on the edge of table, with fingers on keyboard, and my other hand reting on the mouse only needing to slide around, not holding anything up with any part of my body except my neck. Yep. Console gaming is definitely the "lazy" option. That's why I do it.
3 fingers to control movement ; 1 finger for UP and DOWN, 1 for LEFT, 1 for RIGHT 1 Finger to Jump, crouch...and many other functions, when you other finger is doing lots of other functions.
That ^ is 5 finger constantly working ACROSS the full keyboard.. right to left, left to right.. when at the same time you have to remember where every key is in a Board that have "104 keys"... and that is only ONE hand....
You right hand is constantly moving right / left / up /down to aim.. when 3 fingers in your mouse are finding buttons to aim, shoot, and reload ...
You surprise me a bit... i have to say... |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3450
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:02:00 -
[74] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:3 fingers to control movement ; 1 finger for UP and DOWN, 1 for LEFT, 1 for RIGHT 1 Finger to Jump, crouch...and many other functions, when you other finger is doing lots of other functions. That ^ is 5 finger constantly working ACROSS the full keyboard.. right to left, left to right.. when at the same time you have to remember where every key is in a Board that have "104 keys"... and that is only ONE hand.... You right hand is constantly moving right / left / up /down to aim.. when 3 fingers in your mouse are finding buttons to aim, shoot, and reload ... You surprise me a bit... i have to say... Wow you're weird. You need to keep track of every key on the keyboard even though you're only using about 15 of them? I don't get it...
Also, most functions are in easy thumb reach without needing to move fingers from the movement keys, so I tend to not bother wasting effort on moving my hand all over the keyboard just to get at the spacebar.
You also said you can't comfortably use your keyboard laying down. On the rare occasions where I've pulled my KB/M setup out for DUST, I've been more comfortable laying down across my couch with a wooden chopping board tohold the mousepad.
And while you just need to twitch a finger with no thought beyond "twitch" to achieve movement, I have to move my thumb in a specific direction relating to where I want my character to go. The thought involved in making precise direction-specific movements as opposed to "twitch" is much more complex and involved.
Lastly, for someone computer-literate, you generally have at least an approximation of the position of most keys settled into your mind even when you don't normally play games on PC, so arguing that you need that "specialised" knowledge and/or experience doesn't really apply in a world where the majority are computer literate.
...yeah, this argument was getting stupid before it even started... Fun though! |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1005
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:13:00 -
[75] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:3 fingers to control movement ; 1 finger for UP and DOWN, 1 for LEFT, 1 for RIGHT 1 Finger to Jump, crouch...and many other functions, when you other finger is doing lots of other functions. That ^ is 5 finger constantly working ACROSS the full keyboard.. right to left, left to right.. when at the same time you have to remember where every key is in a Board that have "104 keys"... and that is only ONE hand.... You right hand is constantly moving right / left / up /down to aim.. when 3 fingers in your mouse are finding buttons to aim, shoot, and reload ... You surprise me a bit... i have to say... Wow you're weird. You need to keep track of every key on the keyboard even though you're only using about 15 of them? I don't get it... Also, most functions are in easy thumb reach without needing to move fingers from the movement keys, so I tend to not bother wasting effort on moving my hand all over the keyboard just to get at the spacebar. You also said you can't comfortably use your keyboard laying down. On the rare occasions where I've pulled my KB/M setup out for DUST, I've been more comfortable laying down across my couch with a wooden chopping board tohold the mousepad. And while you just need to twitch a finger with no thought beyond "twitch" to achieve movement, I have to move my thumb in a specific direction relating to where I want my character to go. The thought involved in making precise direction-specific movements as opposed to "twitch" is much more complex and involved. Lastly, for someone computer-literate, you generally have at least an approximation of the position of most keys settled into your mind even when you don't normally play games on PC, so arguing that you need that "specialised" knowledge and/or experience doesn't really apply in a world where the majority are computer literate. ...yeah, this argument was getting stupid before it even started... Fun though!
Quote:You need to keep track of every key on the keyboard even though you're only using about 15 of them
ONLY 15 ? .... yeah.. i see what you mean. And actually ... i normally just press any key randomly to i find they key that i want...if you see me doing a weird dance in the game when throwing random grenades into the air... THAT is why. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3452
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:19:00 -
[76] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:ONLY 15 ? .... yeah.. i see what you mean. And actually ... i normally just press any key randomly to i find they key that i want...if you see me doing a weird dance in the game when trowing random grenades into the air... THAT is why. With mouse control, KB/M has an analog style input. This means theoretically infinite inputs on that function alone, negating the argument about buttons.
But wait! Console players use dual analog sticks! INFINITE INPUTS... TWICE! And unlike the mouse, which gives you a WHOLE HAND to make those inputs, you only get to use ONE THUMB for each INFINITE INPUTS stick!
More seriously though, you use about 15 buttons between keyboard and mouse, to reproduce the functions provided by... about 15 buttons... on the sixaxis controller.
Either way, you have to learn which button is where on whichever control type you're using, and become fluent in accessing those buttons at a moment's notice. There really isn't a solid argument about one or the other requiring more thought in a game where every function can be handled with a sixaxis controller. |
Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
1006
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Panther Alpha wrote:ONLY 15 ? .... yeah.. i see what you mean. And actually ... i normally just press any key randomly to i find they key that i want...if you see me doing a weird dance in the game when trowing random grenades into the air... THAT is why. With mouse control, KB/M has an analog style input. This means theoretically infinite inputs on that function alone, negating the argument about buttons. But wait! Console players use dual analog sticks! INFINITE INPUTS... TWICE! And unlike the mouse, which gives you a WHOLE HAND to make those inputs, you only get to use ONE THUMB for each INFINITE INPUTS stick! More seriously though, you use about 15 buttons between keyboard and mouse, to reproduce the functions provided by... about 15 buttons... on the sixaxis controller. Either way, you have to learn which button is where on whichever control type you're using, and become fluent in accessing those buttons at a moment's notice. There really isn't a solid argument about one or the other requiring more thought in a game where every function can be handled with a sixaxis controller.
Are you trying to say... that is not the control you using.. but HOW "you" using the control that makes you a "good" player ?
Looks like we went different directions, and ended up in the same place.... what about that ? |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
3455
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:34:00 -
[78] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Are you trying to say... that is not the control you using.. but HOW "you" using the control that makes you a "good" player ?
Looks like we went different directions, and ended up in the same place.... what about that ? Assuming the controls are implemented to work on an equivalent level, a player's skill with the control scheme should be what matters, not which option they choose to use.
We've both agreed on the core points here already. Mouse control needs to work from raw input, but there needs to be a turn speed cap equal to the limit of sixaxis turning capabilities. If they do that, and fix the problems with sixaxis control, I'll be very happy with the state of the game. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
162
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:10:00 -
[79] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:I've played with KBM, the Move Motion Controller (which I bought just to try it out), and the DS3.
The aiming with the mouse is astronomical (much better than the shakey Move Controller), I mean huge, as in it upped my game to break a previous k/d barrier I was having, to the point where I actually do a mouse and DS3 combination to secure constant head shots. The only reason why I still cling to the DS3 is because I am also working on my piloting, which the DS3 does a lot smoother due to actually benefiting from its own deadzone in this particular case.
The mouse is a direct input device, of course is going to be more responsive...but constant head shots with the current mouse setup ? You see, now i know you trolling...if you stopped on a "better K/D ratio" it will been more believable... even that i seriously dough that is the case. According to some of you guys...( Mega Trolls ) the mouse instantly makes people Pro-Players just by touching it....actually.. no... if you "look at it", you instantly become a FPS god.
I play scout, so I never engage in direct or fair combat (otherwise I lose), I main the pistol and second the sniper rifle, if I don't connect head shots I do not survive the fight (that is how scram pistol gameplay works), so yes, I had a high head shot count already with the DS3 and the mouse secures a much larger % that makes it a massive boom.
I don't see what is unbelievable, I do mouse and controller combo, I have tried all 3 controller types, and I have adapted, stating the results of my mouse use is simply stating a fact. |
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