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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.09.01 17:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:bolsh lee wrote:Was not expecting a post of this nature after reading the title. .. Was getting ready to troll, but loved the read lets just hope the kb/m is back to speed with 1.4 because honestly if its not there isn't much us old scholl twitch shooters can do to compete with the DS3 built in aimbot...  This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move. Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly.
I wish I could believe that's what they're doing. I'm pretty sure no turn speed cap on mouse aim means NO turn speed cap, which means they can insta-spin all they want and sixaxis players will be (not for the first time) at a severe and blatantly unfair disadvantage.
I've been playing FPS games since Doom, and I went through Quake, Tribes, XS and UT (among others) along the way before I moved to primarily being a console gamer. I still play PC games occasionally, and some of them are shooters, but it isn't a common occurence for me these days. In spite of that, I know how those games work, I have been good at them in the past, and it wouldn't take long to get back up to speed.
But guess what? NONE OF THAT IS RELEVANT TO THE PROBLEM SIXAXIS USERS HAVE WITH MOUSE CONTROL.
Sure, there are some idiots saying that CCP shouldn't let people use mouse and keyboard. Those people are idiots, there's no denying that. But there are LEGITIMATE concerns about what CCP are doing to mouse control in 1.4, and those have NOTHING to do with how skilled or experienced you are.
A total noob on their first day playing a typical current-gen PC FPS can insta-180 with a mouse in most games because it's easy to do. They may not be able to line up that perfect headshot like a pro, but PC gamers know not to rely on the element of surprise, because it barely lasts the tiniest fraction of a second before the other player is shooting back. On consoles, the slower turning rates enforced by the sixaxis controller emphasise the stealthy approach of hitting from behind and keeping out of harm's way. We have to use other tactics to counter a backstabbing enemy, and those skills aren't nearly as valuable on PC as they are on console, because many of them are based around the same turn speed cap that makes it more difficult to get the attacker in your sights in the first place.
Neither set of skills makes a person a "better" or "worse" FPS player, but the two styles require very different skillsets.
There have been PC FPS games in the early days which had limited turn speed, and some of them enjoyed some success for a short time before being squashed by the big names that dominated the industry. In those games, you typically saw the same kind of tactics that are common in console shooters, because (obviously) they had the same rules.
DUST needs to balance the control schemes with turn speed caps. There is no way to have a console game with optional mouse and keyboard control and to have mouse turning totally unlimited without negating any sense of fairness in control schemes.
If they do what I'm expecting, I have a keyboard and mouse, so I'll still be able to play, but I will choose not to until they fix the game, because I play the game on my couch, and there isnt' a comfortable place for me to set up a mousepad and play the game. If necessary, I can do it, but it's not necessary. It's a GAME. Games are meant to be FUN, and if I have more FUN playing a game using my sixaxis controller, I'm going to do that instead of playing DUST, which forces me NOT to use it. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.09.01 18:45:00 -
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Panther Alpha wrote:Talking like a real Pro ...  .You have any idea how hard is to instantly turn 180 degrees, then adjust your aim, and "maintain" that aim as you shooting ? Is not as easy as you making it sound ... it takes lots of practice.. and some kick ass reflexes.
I do actually.
But I'm not talking about ADJUSTING and MAINTAINING aim, just getting there in the first place close enough to hit the target.
I actually addressed the fact that you still need to line your shots up for accuracy, if you bothered to read what I said. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.09.01 20:26:00 -
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It took me less than 30 seconds to get the hang of quick-turning and stopping almost exactly on my target ready to line up a shot when I first picked up XS, which I got before Quake. I had to tweak the sensitivity on the mouse when I picked up Quake so it was comfortable, but once I did that, I was perfectly comfortable doing the same thing there almost immediately.
I don't see what your mention of "aimbots" has to do with this conversation, either. I don't use them, and even aim assist (which, contrary to popular delusion, is NOT the same thing) is something I usually turn off when given the choice. In the current state of DUST, I'm unfortunately forced to turn aim assist on, because CQC does weird things to my control sensitivity and breaks the game when I turn it off. Aim assist doesn't have time to kick in during most CQC battles in DUST, so other than turning off a glitch, it doesn't have much impact on my usual playstyle.
So... literally minutes of "practice and experience" for a computer-literate gamer being all that's required to hard-counter a valid tactic that's been learned, relearned, countered, and had the counters learned and anticipated with their own tactics. Yep, sounds fair. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.09.01 22:53:00 -
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I'm just going to point out that the only problem I had with the old mouse control (where they used raw input) was when there were glitches allowing mouse users to circumvent the turn speed cap, or when they blatantly removed it at one point.
The fine aim complaint is NOT a problem because it's balanced by the precision movement allowed by the left stick, which WASD movement will never match.
A good player with a sixaxis controller and competently-implemented controls (which are unfortunately lacking in DUST on our end as well) can handle fine aim perfectly fine.
I don't want them to keep mouse aim in the current state, and have never, at any point, said that I do want that. I want them to FIX mouse aim, not break it in the opposite direction like they keep doing. They go from one extreme to the other constantly. The controls for sixaxis are still problematic, and the controls for mouse aim get broken in different ways with every revision.
I hope they fix the mistakes they made and make it so mouse aiming works properly, but I don't want a repeat of the last time players were using a mouse without a turn speed cap, because it's been game-breaking before, and it will be game-breaking again. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.09.01 23:34:00 -
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pseudosnipre wrote:I was under the impression that DS3 translates your inputs to the game accurately...
Last time I actually tested it, nope. There were 2 options:
1. Aim assist on.
2. Kittened up acceleration curve that gets worse if there's an enemy in Shotgun range.
Option 1 means that whenever an enemy runs across your crosshairs, your aim tries to follow them, and when mutliple enemies are near your crosshairs, you never know which one the game is going to want you to aim at and try to chase for you.
Option 2 means that, depending on your control sensitivity, tilting the right stick will start you off relatively slowly, and gradually ramp speed up over a short time, with your starting point set by the sensitivity you chose. With aim assist off, how far you tilt the stick doesn't make as much of a difference as how long you keep it tilted for. Holding it steady just barely beyond the (still too wide) deadzone doesn't give you a constant slow pan. It starts you off in a slow pan and gradually speeds up, then starts to increase speed more, then jumps to max turn speed really sharply. It also means that when there's an enemy close enough to you, no matter how much or little you tilt the stick, you turn at such a ridiculous speed that you'll be lucky to line up a shot on an abandoned tank.
I do still need to test just how bad this gets after the 1.3 update, but I know there's still acceleration and there's still the CQC glitch with aim assist off. |
Garrett Blacknova
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3443
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Posted - 2013.09.02 10:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:If they do what I'm expecting, I have a keyboard and mouse, so I'll still be able to play, but I will choose not to until they fix the game, because I play the game on my couch, and there isnt' a comfortable place for me to set up a mousepad and play the game. If necessary, I can do it, but it's not necessary. It's a GAME. Games are meant to be FUN, and if I have more FUN playing a game using my sixaxis controller, I'm going to do that instead of playing DUST, which forces me NOT to use it. tv tray like a baws
I've got better than a TV tray, but I usually use it for either a plate of food or my laptop. Adding a mouse and keyboard would get in the way of my usual setup. |
Garrett Blacknova
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3449
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Posted - 2013.09.02 14:32:00 -
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Little fingers hooked under controller for support, with palms gripping.
Ring fingers on L2/R2.
Middle fingers on L1/R1.
Index fingers on d-pad and face buttons.
Thumbs on sticks. Controller held above lap while sitting up straight.
Pretty sure I'm using more than just 4 fingers like that.
Alternatively, AC Grip.
Thumbs on shoulder buttons.
Index and middle fingers on face buttons.
Ring fingers on sticks.
Little fingers and palms supporting controller.
As opposed to how I used to play PC FPS games.
Slumped across a chair with a beanbag on it, hand resting on the edge of table, with fingers on keyboard, and my other hand reting on the mouse only needing to slide around, not holding anything up with any part of my body except my neck.
Yep. Console gaming is definitely the "lazy" option. That's why I do it. |
Garrett Blacknova
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3450
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Posted - 2013.09.02 15:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:3 fingers to control movement ; 1 finger for UP and DOWN, 1 for LEFT, 1 for RIGHT 1 Finger to Jump, crouch...and many other functions, when you other finger is doing lots of other functions. That ^ is 5 finger constantly working ACROSS the full keyboard.. right to left, left to right.. when at the same time you have to remember where every key is in a Board that have "104 keys"... and that is only ONE hand.... You right hand is constantly moving right / left / up /down to aim.. when 3 fingers in your mouse are finding buttons to aim, shoot, and reload ... You surprise me a bit... i have to say... 
Wow you're weird. You need to keep track of every key on the keyboard even though you're only using about 15 of them? I don't get it...
Also, most functions are in easy thumb reach without needing to move fingers from the movement keys, so I tend to not bother wasting effort on moving my hand all over the keyboard just to get at the spacebar.
You also said you can't comfortably use your keyboard laying down. On the rare occasions where I've pulled my KB/M setup out for DUST, I've been more comfortable laying down across my couch with a wooden chopping board tohold the mousepad.
And while you just need to twitch a finger with no thought beyond "twitch" to achieve movement, I have to move my thumb in a specific direction relating to where I want my character to go. The thought involved in making precise direction-specific movements as opposed to "twitch" is much more complex and involved.
Lastly, for someone computer-literate, you generally have at least an approximation of the position of most keys settled into your mind even when you don't normally play games on PC, so arguing that you need that "specialised" knowledge and/or experience doesn't really apply in a world where the majority are computer literate.
...yeah, this argument was getting stupid before it even started... Fun though!  |
Garrett Blacknova
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3452
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Posted - 2013.09.02 15:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:ONLY 15 ? .... yeah.. i see what you mean.  And actually ... i normally just press any key randomly to i find they key that i want...if you see me doing a weird dance in the game when trowing random grenades into the air... THAT is why.
With mouse control, KB/M has an analog style input. This means theoretically infinite inputs on that function alone, negating the argument about buttons.
But wait! Console players use dual analog sticks! INFINITE INPUTS... TWICE! And unlike the mouse, which gives you a WHOLE HAND to make those inputs, you only get to use ONE THUMB for each INFINITE INPUTS stick!
More seriously though, you use about 15 buttons between keyboard and mouse, to reproduce the functions provided by... about 15 buttons... on the sixaxis controller.
Either way, you have to learn which button is where on whichever control type you're using, and become fluent in accessing those buttons at a moment's notice. There really isn't a solid argument about one or the other requiring more thought in a game where every function can be handled with a sixaxis controller. |
Garrett Blacknova
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3455
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Posted - 2013.09.02 15:34:00 -
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Panther Alpha wrote:Are you trying to say... that is not the control you using.. but HOW "you" using the control that makes you a "good" player ?
Looks like we went different directions, and ended up in the same place.... what about that ?
Assuming the controls are implemented to work on an equivalent level, a player's skill with the control scheme should be what matters, not which option they choose to use.
We've both agreed on the core points here already. Mouse control needs to work from raw input, but there needs to be a turn speed cap equal to the limit of sixaxis turning capabilities. If they do that, and fix the problems with sixaxis control, I'll be very happy with the state of the game. |
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