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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
545
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 21:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Boot Booter wrote:OK so I am going to try to reply to each of the points you made. Obviously you love the FG so I assume you are a bit biased in your original post.
1) you say heavies are easiest to kill. Well nobody runs around with a FG in normal assault range. They are almost always on a tower and in fact are the hardest to kill while they are up high because they can easily find cover from fire below. So this point you make is a bit irrelevant.
2) FGers require heavy squad support. This is true and also plays into a point I will make later which makes FGers extra hard to remove from towers.
3) CQC? I think I cover that in 1...
4) Tower FG. OK so this is where the FG dominates. You say, how many towers are in the game? I have news for you, there are a lot and most of them can cover and completely protect an objective with a FG. You can't just fly a derpship up there because, oh wait there's a forge gunner up there. Plus, the FGer has squad support which usually means at least one logi who has drop up links, nanohives, etc. So what your saying is, that it isn't hard to fly a dropship, that gets one hit by a forge gun, up to the tower, drop infantry and take down a heavy, a logi, probably a few other enemies, and the drop uplinks. Well again, I have news for you, it's pretty challenging.
5) solo FGers... Well again, obviously they won't be solo. This would be no problem.
I am not complaining about the FG just yet, just saying the points you make aren't that accurate or relevant to the true power of the FG.
The real issue with the forge gun is, once you have a well supported FGer on a tower it is near impossible to remove / takes a lot of effort while the rest of the blueberries are busy getting over run. Furthermore, this FGer can fully defend against vehicles and completely lock down one objective at the same time. This is OP, plain and simple. I like the FG, it's a lot of fun and I think it should be powerful, but it's splash damage and travel speed make it a beast at taking out infantry. To add more, the thing is extremely easy to aim. Anyone who says it isn't is either terrible or lying, period.
My solution is to reduce the splash and slightly decrease the projectile velocity. In other words increasing the skill needed to use it while keeping the same power. Not biased, but I do love the FG. 1) I stay in AR range with my FG all the time. *shrugs* I don't play like a coward. The fact that "Forge Gunners are almost always on a tower" does not make the FG overpowered. 4) There are'nt so many towers that one cannot relatively quickly find a tower Forge Gunner. There are absolutely no towers in the game that have absolute FG range over the entire map and the DS flight ceiling so stop being lazy when you call in and fly your DS. The FG has no problems, reducing the splash, decreasing the Projectile velocity or doing anything else to it would make it useless. The splash is there to scatter Vehicle's infantry support like I state earlier in the thread. Reducing the projectile velocity would render it useless against vehicles by making it to easy to dodge. The main problem is they can defend an objective the entire game by themselves from out of assault range and are near impossible to remove. I don't have a problem with them otherwise. Yesterday for example I saw a guy go 22/0 with one on a tower. Smart players went around for other objectives and nearly won through cloning but essentially were at a ridiculous disadvantage. Now I know that is great strategy but don't say it was hard for the FGer or really fair (balanced). The FG isn't OP but tower FGing is, the splash is what makes defending the objective without actually having line of sight possible. You can keep some splash but why in the world should an AV weapon be able to splash two hit kill protos?
If you get hit by the splash from a tower FG sniper, why on earth would you stand there for 2 more seconds while he charges back up? That is not very smart. Medium and light suits have more than enough speed to evade splash damage from a tower Forge Gunner. It isn't his fault you just remain in the same place. If you get spammed with a mass driver do you not try to evade the splash damage? |
BLKDG
RoyalSquad514
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
Nemo Bluntz wrote:BLKDG wrote:what is a high health shooter, if you mean by having armor, shields and etc, do tanks and DS and Lavs make this a conventional shooter?
And by balance how do you counter logi lavs? (even a bisnitch to hit with a FG) ...its a shooter where the characters have high health. Every suit in this game can take multiple hits from most of the guns (you know, barring point blank shotgun blasts, for obvious reasons). The Forge Gun is basically the "Counter Strike AWP". Takes a second between shots, but its a OHK on impact and has great range. The tower forge gunning is really my personal only issue with it. You can hit people, but they can't hit you annnnd even if you manage to get some hits in, this being a high health shooter, they can just take a few steps back, recharge their shields, then its game-on again. Balance the LLAVs? If you want that conversation again on these here forums. I'm in camp "No Collision Damage." Its the instant fix that makes sense as far as gameplay goes that everyone hates because "realism and physics."
Thanks,
Best success with a tower FG, is to FG them back. They will see you, they will ignore everything else, and its a battle of the blue balls. Gives time for the teamees to get up there, break their crap, and shoot them in the back of the head (or otherway around). Then I'll get up there and do the same. Dog eat dog.
I know tower gunning isn't popular, but why did ccp put them there (big enough for rail guns, thus Manus Peak has no peak), we are humans after all and gamers so we will take advantage of everything (look at the melee glitch crap).
If you are on my team and we encounter them up there, I really enjoy getting up onto the tower and returning the favor. If you see me on the teamlist shoot me a message and I'll go get em with my squad.
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:01:00 -
[63] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Your 47K isk infantry weapon does 126 less damage than my 900K proto rail gun. while having the same ROF. This isn't a "railgun turrets are UP thread". Seriously though, what would you be able to do with a damage buff that you can't do now besides take out installations a bit faster? You can OHK infantry just like we can, but you have a much farther range than the FG.
I take issue with it take a FG less shots to take out the same tank. Another tank should always be the best option to take out a tank. Installations are perhaps a better comparison, a FG takes em out in two I'd need a damage mod with maxed turret skills and a proto rail to do the same. Though I'd have to confirm that don't bring out the proto rail unless another tank requires it. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
545
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:02:00 -
[64] - Quote
TunRa wrote:Problem is you can't counter them when they are 50 stories above your head and all you have is a militia sniper rifle. There is more than one tower or other high altitude vantage point in every map so get up there, and yes you can take out a proto heavy with a MLT sniper rifle because I have done it. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
545
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:08:00 -
[65] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Your 47K isk infantry weapon does 126 less damage than my 900K proto rail gun. while having the same ROF. This isn't a "railgun turrets are UP thread". Seriously though, what would you be able to do with a damage buff that you can't do now besides take out installations a bit faster? You can OHK infantry just like we can, but you have a much farther range than the FG. I take issue with it take a FG less shots to take out the same tank. Another tank should always be the best option to take out a tank. Installations are perhaps a better comparison, a FG takes em out in two I'd need a damage mod with maxed turret skills and a proto rail to do the same. Though I'd have to confirm that don't bring out the proto rail unless another tank requires it.
I would say that the Rail Turret should to about 1.5 times the damage of the Breach FG in each tier, but should take longer to charge as well.
I can confirm that with the ADV Assault FG, MLT and Comp Damage Mod, Pro lvl 2 it takes 3 shots to take out a turret. |
Gelhad Thremyr
QcGOLD
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:17:00 -
[66] - Quote
Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? |
Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:20:00 -
[67] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Your 47K isk infantry weapon does 126 less damage than my 900K proto rail gun. while having the same ROF. This isn't a "railgun turrets are UP thread". Seriously though, what would you be able to do with a damage buff that you can't do now besides take out installations a bit faster? You can OHK infantry just like we can, but you have a much farther range than the FG. I take issue with it take a FG less shots to take out the same tank. Another tank should always be the best option to take out a tank. Installations are perhaps a better comparison, a FG takes em out in two I'd need a damage mod with maxed turret skills and a proto rail to do the same. Though I'd have to confirm that don't bring out the proto rail unless another tank requires it. I would say that the Rail Turret should to about 1.5 times the damage of the Breach FG in each tier, but should take longer to charge as well. I can confirm that with the ADV Assault FG, MLT and Comp Damage Mod, Pro lvl 2 it takes 3 shots to take out a turret installation.
I just remember being in disbelief when my tank alt with said max skills couldn't two shot it. Was the tiniest of slivers left but still took another shot. Most armor tankers wouldn't use a low slot for a mod, but I do though I had a spool reduction on at the time. |
Billi Gene
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
333
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:21:00 -
[68] - Quote
THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:Face it, tanks wanna solo the whole team, but want 3-4 people to take them down. Yet they don't want to use teamwork to counter AV. They also don't want to get out of the tank and counter the AVer. They simply want forgers to be within killing range of their blaster, which of course means death for the forger. Face it, tankers these days are scrubs who want easy mode. That was the whole reason they specced into tanks. Then they got the rude awakening of that, just like every other game, an AVer can solo a tank, because if it takes 2 AVers or more, teamwork becomes a necessity, and considering its a video game, teamwork is rare. All of a sudden tanks become totally broke because to require teamwork to counter something is completely chance, rather than a lone AVers skill.
I'm glad that even though I was one of the best tankers last build, i respecced out of them. Otherwise I'd be lumped in with the garbo tankers we have now.
isnt the OP arguing exactly that though? that it should take a dedicated team to take out the tower camp?
as far as not getting out of your tank... that will change when there are vehicle locks.
I see no reason why FG should not remain as they are, but i do think that we need to have less easy targets for them to LOLSnipe.
bring on the vehicle tiers with increased CPU/PG and slots puh-lease :)....oh and rendering is hopefully getting a fix :P can't wait for the FG QQ over getting LOLRail-sniped off towers
Also might want to add that last build all infantry weapons did less damage... try tanking in the current pre1.4/1.5 game... maybe you weren't as good as you thought :P |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
545
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:21:00 -
[69] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ?
Was he the Squad leader calling in Orbital Strikes?
I was in a match earlier today using my HMG. I was also squad leader, and called in 2 Orbital Strikes. I went 41/10 about 15 were OS kills. Are you going to try to tell me that the HMG is OP now? |
Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:27:00 -
[70] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ?
If only one thing was changed on the FG I'd have it be projectile speed. As it stands now, reticule turns red and they're dead. There has to be a draw back for such a relatively small weapon putting out that much power and maintaining said power over such a distance and that would be how fast you can send the projectile at the target. Not even plasma cannon slow but someplace between the PC speed and the current speed. Would take more skill to hit a DS but a tank would still be reasonably easy to hit unless they hit the fuel injectors. Hitting moving infantry from a tower would be harder as well. |
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Gelhad Thremyr
QcGOLD
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 22:33:00 -
[71] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? Was he the Squad leader calling in Orbital Strikes? I was in a match earlier today using my HMG. I was also squad leader, and called in 2 Orbital Strikes. I went 41/10 about 15 were OS kills. Are you going to try to tell me that the HMG is OP now?
Not even one orbital was fired in that game on either side. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
551
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:13:00 -
[72] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? If only one thing was changed on the FG I'd have it be projectile speed. As it stands now, reticule turns red and they're dead. There has to be a draw back for such a relatively small weapon putting out that much power and maintaining said power over such a distance and that would be how fast you can send the projectile at the target. Not even plasma cannon slow but someplace between the PC speed and the current speed. Would take more skill to hit a DS but a tank would still be reasonably easy to hit unless they hit the fuel injectors. Hitting moving infantry from a tower would be harder as well. That would just make the FG suck.
Remember it is a handheld Railgun. Just like the sniper rifle except larger. It doesn't fire an actual projectile.
Would you want this done to your rail turrets? What about the Railgun Installations? Sniper Rifles? What about the Caldari Rail Rifle? Should these weapons also have a slower traveling "projectile", of course not. |
Xender17
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
492
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:16:00 -
[73] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? If only one thing was changed on the FG I'd have it be projectile speed. As it stands now, reticule turns red and they're dead. There has to be a draw back for such a relatively small weapon putting out that much power and maintaining said power over such a distance and that would be how fast you can send the projectile at the target. Not even plasma cannon slow but someplace between the PC speed and the current speed. Would take more skill to hit a DS but a tank would still be reasonably easy to hit unless they hit the fuel injectors. Hitting moving infantry from a tower would be harder as well. That would just make the FG suck. Remember it is a handheld Railgun. Just like the sniper rifle except larger. It doesn't fire an actual projectile. Would you want this done to your rail turrets? What about the Railgun Installations? Sniper Rifles? What about the Caldari Rail Rifle? Should these weapons also have a slower traveling "projectile", of course not. Well yeah... the fg 5 to 4 times smaller than a railgun turret. So yeah... I do expect it to be weaker in everyway. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
551
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
Xender17 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? If only one thing was changed on the FG I'd have it be projectile speed. As it stands now, reticule turns red and they're dead. There has to be a draw back for such a relatively small weapon putting out that much power and maintaining said power over such a distance and that would be how fast you can send the projectile at the target. Not even plasma cannon slow but someplace between the PC speed and the current speed. Would take more skill to hit a DS but a tank would still be reasonably easy to hit unless they hit the fuel injectors. Hitting moving infantry from a tower would be harder as well. That would just make the FG suck. Remember it is a handheld Railgun. Just like the sniper rifle except larger. It doesn't fire an actual projectile. Would you want this done to your rail turrets? What about the Railgun Installations? Sniper Rifles? What about the Caldari Rail Rifle? Should these weapons also have a slower traveling "projectile", of course not. Well yeah... the fg 5 to 4 times smaller than a railgun turret. So yeah... I do expect it to be weaker in everyway.
Who said anything about damage output. This was about "projectile travel speed". No it should not fire slower rounds than other rail weapons that is ludicrous! |
Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:21:00 -
[75] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? If only one thing was changed on the FG I'd have it be projectile speed. As it stands now, reticule turns red and they're dead. There has to be a draw back for such a relatively small weapon putting out that much power and maintaining said power over such a distance and that would be how fast you can send the projectile at the target. Not even plasma cannon slow but someplace between the PC speed and the current speed. Would take more skill to hit a DS but a tank would still be reasonably easy to hit unless they hit the fuel injectors. Hitting moving infantry from a tower would be harder as well. That would just make the FG suck. Remember it is a handheld Railgun. Just like the sniper rifle except larger. It doesn't fire an actual projectile. Would you want this done to your rail turrets? What about the Railgun Installations? Sniper Rifles? What about the Caldari Rail Rifle? Should these weapons also have a slower traveling "projectile", of course not.
If its a rail gun it fires a projectile, if not it's not a rail gun. And if it's not a projectile its a ball of energy. Guess what unless contained in a magnetic field that energy would quickly dissipate. So how do you fire a charge that powerful while maintaining it's magnetic field at such high velocity over such a long distance? |
BLKDG
RoyalSquad514
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:22:00 -
[76] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? Was he the Squad leader calling in Orbital Strikes? I was in a match earlier today using my HMG. I was also squad leader, and called in 2 Orbital Strikes. I went 41/10 about 15 were OS kills. Are you going to try to tell me that the HMG is OP now? Not even one orbital was fired in that game on either side.
Thats outside the standard deviation for fg gunners. Cant use the one example as a measure. I know people snipe. Why they cant coordinate is beyond me. Why that fg stayed there so long is also a good question.
Though one thing I don't like is the lack of hit detection from a fg. Come back and tell me who the rest of the top leaders are today. More than likely logi gek or duevall users.
When proto tanks come out yall be screaming for a fg buff. |
Arcturis Vanguard
Pure Innocence. EoN.
77
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:23:00 -
[77] - Quote
Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ?
You are referring to the map called line harvest. I always have huge rendering problems being on the towers. Chevrons are the only thing viewable. To get 50 kills with a forge gun has skill with quite a bit of luck involved. There are too many variables that account for this. Also we might as well forget that there are only 16 rounds in a forge. Nerf the **** out of nano hives. Only be able to drop one during a match and only supply 1 clip to any weapon at proto level.
By the way, that is sarcasm. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
551
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? If only one thing was changed on the FG I'd have it be projectile speed. As it stands now, reticule turns red and they're dead. There has to be a draw back for such a relatively small weapon putting out that much power and maintaining said power over such a distance and that would be how fast you can send the projectile at the target. Not even plasma cannon slow but someplace between the PC speed and the current speed. Would take more skill to hit a DS but a tank would still be reasonably easy to hit unless they hit the fuel injectors. Hitting moving infantry from a tower would be harder as well. That would just make the FG suck. Remember it is a handheld Railgun. Just like the sniper rifle except larger. It doesn't fire an actual projectile. Would you want this done to your rail turrets? What about the Railgun Installations? Sniper Rifles? What about the Caldari Rail Rifle? Should these weapons also have a slower traveling "projectile", of course not. If its a rail gun it fires a projectile, if not it's not a rail gun. And if it's not a projectile its a ball of energy. Guess what unless contained in a magnetic field that energy would quickly dissipate. So how do you fire a charge that powerful while maintaining it's magnetic field at such high velocity over such a long distance?
According to this logic the sniper rifle should have crap range and crap "projectile" travel speed because the smaller "projectile" and smaller magnetic field could not be maintained over such long distance.
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CommanderBolt
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
215
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Smooth Assassin wrote: Reasons FG is OP:
Have you ever wanted a weapon that has a powerful range and powerful against all types of entities even at close range or any range well the assault forge gun is your pick counter any infantry and vehicle.
Even at close range, eh? I take it you're also good at no-scoping with a sniper rifle. Forge Gun on a tower without ladder access is OP against vehicles because you have to fly the Forge Gunner's favorite prey up to kill him. It's only a nuisance against infantry up there, however, and less effective than your average sniper. And it isn't just Forge Guns that are good way up thar. They're just the ideal weapon for defending the position. IMO, Forge Gun's OPness is and always has been a map design issue. There should be no remote, defendable positions with only one method of access anywhere on any map.
I agree, the level design is partly to blame. The forge gun though isn't that overpowered possibly the splash range, however its all about direct hits with that thing anyway. It can be sniped and it can be counter forge gunned. You dont moan that your AR doesn't have the range to deal with a sniper up high do you? You generally switch to your own sniper rifle. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
1289
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:39:00 -
[80] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Disturbingly Bored wrote:Smooth Assassin wrote: Reasons FG is OP:
Have you ever wanted a weapon that has a powerful range and powerful against all types of entities even at close range or any range well the assault forge gun is your pick counter any infantry and vehicle.
Even at close range, eh? I take it you're also good at no-scoping with a sniper rifle. Forge Gun on a tower without ladder access is OP against vehicles because you have to fly the Forge Gunner's favorite prey up to kill him. It's only a nuisance against infantry up there, however, and less effective than your average sniper. And it isn't just Forge Guns that are good way up thar. They're just the ideal weapon for defending the position. IMO, Forge Gun's OPness is and always has been a map design issue. There should be no remote, defendable positions with only one method of access anywhere on any map. I agree, the level design is partly to blame. The forge gun though isn't that overpowered possibly the splash range, however its all about direct hits with that thing anyway. It can be sniped and it can be counter forge gunned. You dont moan that your AR doesn't have the range to deal with a sniper up high do you? You generally switch to your own sniper rifle. sniper rifles don't kill dropships so even if they get somewhere that requires at to get in range you can still CQC them with said AR, forges do. solo sniper i go there and kick his butt without changing weapons. |
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Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
I have said this before and I'll say this again.
Something that needs a team to take down should require a team to operate properly. Cost or SP needed for the vehicle/weapon/armor is irrelevant. If not, then there's very little reason to do anything else and the field will be filled with tanks.
There's nothing overpowered in AV build taking down a one man tank.
As for Forge gunners in towers, it's just a silly exploit. infantry should be able to take them down tough. |
Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:47:00 -
[82] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? If only one thing was changed on the FG I'd have it be projectile speed. As it stands now, reticule turns red and they're dead. There has to be a draw back for such a relatively small weapon putting out that much power and maintaining said power over such a distance and that would be how fast you can send the projectile at the target. Not even plasma cannon slow but someplace between the PC speed and the current speed. Would take more skill to hit a DS but a tank would still be reasonably easy to hit unless they hit the fuel injectors. Hitting moving infantry from a tower would be harder as well. That would just make the FG suck. Remember it is a handheld Railgun. Just like the sniper rifle except larger. It doesn't fire an actual projectile.Would you want this done to your rail turrets? What about the Railgun Installations? Sniper Rifles? What about the Caldari Rail Rifle? Should these weapons also have a slower traveling "projectile", of course not. If its a rail gun it fires a projectile, if not it's not a rail gun. And if it's not a projectile its a ball of energy. Guess what unless contained in a magnetic field that energy would quickly dissipate. So how do you fire a charge that powerful while maintaining it's magnetic field at such high velocity over such a long distance? According to this logic the sniper rifle should have crap range and crap "projectile" travel speed because the smaller "projectile" and smaller magnetic field could not be maintained over such long distance.
A rail gun fires and actual factual projectile, it uses successive magnetic fields to launch said projectile therefore no magnetic field to maintain. You claim the FG doesn't fire an actual projectile, therefore its not a rail gun at least not in the traditional sense. Either way if its not firing an actual projectile its firing a ball of energy which would require a magnetic field to keep the energy from dissipating. |
BLKDG
RoyalSquad514
68
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:50:00 -
[83] - Quote
Kyy Seiska wrote:I have said this before and I'll say this again.
Something that needs a team to take down should require a team to operate properly. Cost or SP needed for the vehicle/weapon/armor is irrelevant. If not, then there's very little reason to do anything else and the field will be filled with tanks.
There's nothing overpowered in AV build taking down a one man tank.
As for Forge gunners in towers, it's just a silly exploit. infantry should be able to take them down tough. Exploit no Big flat towers all over the map. What do you think people would do?
Before the ceiling restrictions were removed, people were wrecking gobs of ds to get up there. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
551
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 00:13:00 -
[84] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:A rail gun fires and actual factual projectile, it uses successive magnetic fields to launch said projectile therefore no magnetic field to maintain. You claim the FG doesn't fire an actual projectile, therefore its not a rail gun at least not in the traditional sense. Either way if its not firing an actual projectile its firing a ball of energy which would require a magnetic field to keep the energy from dissipating. This is a railgun
Your the one who claimed that it required "maintaining it's magnetic field at such high velocity over such a long distance" I was basing my statement off of your *fail logic as the same technology is used in both weapons, one is simply smaller than the other!
By your own description the FG is a rail gun. So is the Sniper Rifle as they actually have ammunition that gets used up as you fire. The "Railgun Installation Turrets" and HAV "Railgun Turrets" are not actual "railgun" weapons because they have no physical ammunition that is used up.
Also this is not real life. The Dust 514 "Railgun" did not originate in the U.S. Navy, and is hardly comparable!
In Dust 514, the FG is the same exact technology used in your HAV's Rail Turret, The Railgun Installations, Sniper Rifles, and soon to come Cal. Rail Rifle and Rail Pistol. So if the FG munition has a nerf to it's travel velocity so should every other railgun weapon!
I'm beginning to think you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing at this point in which case you double the fail! |
Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 00:21:00 -
[85] - Quote
BLKDG wrote:Kyy Seiska wrote:I have said this before and I'll say this again.
Something that needs a team to take down should require a team to operate properly. Cost or SP needed for the vehicle/weapon/armor is irrelevant. If not, then there's very little reason to do anything else and the field will be filled with tanks.
There's nothing overpowered in AV build taking down a one man tank.
As for Forge gunners in towers, it's just a silly exploit. infantry should be able to take them down tough. Exploit no Big flat towers all over the map. What do you think people would do? Before the ceiling restrictions were removed, people were wrecking gobs of ds to get up there.
In one of the early versions of Dust 514 people where using drop-ships instead of forge guns to rain death to the battlefield.
And by exploit, I mean the fact that they are exploiting the terrain/level design and render issues of the game.
|
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
1290
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 00:26:00 -
[86] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:A rail gun fires and actual factual projectile, it uses successive magnetic fields to launch said projectile therefore no magnetic field to maintain. You claim the FG doesn't fire an actual projectile, therefore its not a rail gun at least not in the traditional sense. Either way if its not firing an actual projectile its firing a ball of energy which would require a magnetic field to keep the energy from dissipating. This is a railgun forge guns are not true rail guns. the rail turrets have a short charge time which is charging a capacitator for the rails. the forge is making a magnetic field to shot (aka a kinetic slugs) using asynchronous linear motor. in short they should have a much smaller range and drop off. the rounds them self do not travel at this LOL 7000m/s just the charge in inside the magnetic field. that is why the clips look like 4.5 volt batteries...yea the big ones. |
Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 00:26:00 -
[87] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:Gelhad Thremyr wrote:Just witness a 50/6 Team Player guy with a forge gun in a domination. It cant be just skill, he camped on top of one of the 6 huge towers.
Say what you will but a score like that cant be only skills. Lets just say that in a sense I was happy he was on my side, but its a serious WTF moment...
Most forge gun I see now are campers making huge amount of kills, is that the real intended behaviour with this weapon ? If only one thing was changed on the FG I'd have it be projectile speed. As it stands now, reticule turns red and they're dead. There has to be a draw back for such a relatively small weapon putting out that much power and maintaining said power over such a distance and that would be how fast you can send the projectile at the target. Not even plasma cannon slow but someplace between the PC speed and the current speed. Would take more skill to hit a DS but a tank would still be reasonably easy to hit unless they hit the fuel injectors. Hitting moving infantry from a tower would be harder as well. That would just make the FG suck. Remember it is a handheld Railgun. Just like the sniper rifle except larger. It doesn't fire an actual projectile.Would you want this done to your rail turrets? What about the Railgun Installations? Sniper Rifles? What about the Caldari Rail Rifle? Should these weapons also have a slower traveling "projectile", of course not. If its a rail gun it fires a projectile, if not it's not a rail gun. And if it's not a projectile its a ball of energy. Guess what unless contained in a magnetic field that energy would quickly dissipate. So how do you fire a charge that powerful while maintaining it's magnetic field at such high velocity over such a long distance? According to this logic the sniper rifle should have crap range and crap "projectile" travel speed because the smaller "projectile" and smaller magnetic field could not be maintained over such long distance.
Here I bolded the key parts your reading comprehension fails to grasp. You are the only one that said rail guns don't fire projectiles. Yes its a game but a railgun is a railgun now and in the future. When I fire my rail turret I see an actual projectile leave the barrel. When you fire a FG I see a ball of energy. Because CCP didn't bother to define where the ammo comes from doesn't mean its not firing a physical projectile. The suspension of disbelief in this instances is where all the energy is coming from in both cases.
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
551
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 00:37:00 -
[88] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote: Here I bolded the key parts your reading comprehension fails to grasp. You are the only one that said rail guns don't fire projectiles. Yes its a game but a railgun is a railgun now and in the future. When I fire my rail turret I see an actual projectile leave the barrel. When you fire a FG I see a ball of energy. Because CCP didn't bother to define where the ammo comes from doesn't mean its not firing a physical projectile. The suspension of disbelief in this instances is where all the energy is coming from in both cases.
So now you resort to insulting my reading comprehension lol. GTFO man.
Let me explain it to you and bold the parts your reading comp fails to grasp.
The FG, Sniper Rifle, Rail Turret, Railgun Installation all use the exact same technology!
You are trying to claim that the FG fires a "ball of energy" lol if this is the case, then all Rail gun weapons fire a "ball of energy" If the rail turret fires a magnetically propelled projectile, then all Rail weapons fire a magnetically propelled projectile including the FG!
So the same physics should apply to all rail based weaponry!
I underlined it for you as well in case you missed the bold! |
Michael Arck
sephiroth clones D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
635
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 00:38:00 -
[89] - Quote
fat boy snipers... |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
1290
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 00:42:00 -
[90] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:A rail gun fires and actual factual projectile, it uses successive magnetic fields to launch said projectile therefore no magnetic field to maintain. You claim the FG doesn't fire an actual projectile, therefore its not a rail gun at least not in the traditional sense. Either way if its not firing an actual projectile its firing a ball of energy which would require a magnetic field to keep the energy from dissipating. This is a railgun Your the one who claimed that it required "maintaining it's magnetic field at such high velocity over such a long distance" I was basing my statement off of your *fail logic as the same technology is used in both weapons, one is simply smaller than the other! By your own description the FG is a rail gun. So is the Sniper Rifle as they actually have ammunition that gets used up as you fire. The "Railgun Installation Turrets" and HAV "Railgun Turrets" are not actual "railgun" weapons because they have no physical ammunition that is used up. Also this is not real life. The Dust 514 "Railgun" did not originate in the U.S. Navy, and is hardly comparable! In Dust 514, the FG is the same exact technology used in your HAV's Rail Turret, The Railgun Installations, Sniper Rifles, and soon to come Cal. Rail Rifle and Rail Pistol. So if the FG munition has a nerf to it's travel velocity so should every other railgun weapon! I'm beginning to think you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing at this point in which case you double the fail! forge= big bright ball rails= projectile that is clearly seen.
forge Gëá rail forge = same type of damage as rail which is high velocity kinetic energy. |
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