So, wait..... What's tiericide again?

Honestly, I would rather have them turn those "Mercenary" battle into sort of an "instant battle/Faction Warfare" for proto suits. With higher/unique rewards.

Although I do understand why you want tiericide (it's to help with new player retention, correct?), I believe there are better ways to solve that problem such as PVE, matchmaking, and getting skilled players OUT of instant battle and INTO Faction Warfare.

I recently found out that some people still don't get tiercide....... That's just sad.


tiercide- The act of murdering tiers.

You get rid of any tiers in the game, or at least anything that overpowers something else over a wide scale, then make a verity of variants for those things.

ex. the T I Gallente BC's in EVE are called the Brutix, Myrmidon, and Talos. If my memory serves me right, when EVE was under the tier system, the Talos was the "PROTO" Gallente BC, Myrmidon was the "ADV.", and and the Brutix was the "STD" . And, although slightly different, just like now with dust, the Talos was the best to use. When tiercide happened, they were rebalanced, and (although imo the Myrmidon is now the best, cuz' drones), they all have their roles, one being the CQ DPS monster, one being the medium range support, and one being the Long range sniper.

Now that (hopefully) the fools that don't get it do, I will say how I think it should go down: All PROTO weapons, turrets, equipment, and frames should be deleted. After, some things should happen:

For weapons and turrets: Only have one kind of gun, and call it something neat, for example, the GEK-38 Plasma Rifle. From there, we will do a mass change to all of the weapons and turrets, making them T III equipment. What that means in simple terms is add weapon customization. Do the same for vehicle turrets. Now, add AUR variants that have prefits of the weapon modules on them, and make them to where they're similar/same as the variants as we have today. Make them cost no SP.


For suit Frames and vehicle hulls: Get rid of the ADV. and PROTO ones, and add variants that have slight changes to them, like speed, scanning, etc. then give them bonuses for their specific role, like a slight reduction to equipment, or a ROF bonus/level.

For T II frames and hulls: Same as the T I ones, but give them more of a reason to exist other than being just flat out better; a defined role. Like taking away sidearms from most Logis isn't a good idea, but making their weapons weaker, but making the equipment more efficient. ex. There should be a Logi-like T I frame. It wouldn't out-preform it in Logi roles, but if it got in a fight with a Logi frame, it would win, unless the Logi is a good fighter, or gets lucky.


For modules and equipment: Modules should stay as is (tier wise), as I see nothing wrong with them being like that. Equipment should get rid of the STD and PROTO versions, and keep the ADV versions.

Now balance for CPU/PG.


Peace, Aizen

What about aurum gear?

Tiericide sounds like a great model for a subscription based game... but not sure how you would convince people to monetize if there is nothing worthwhile to purchase in game.

What about aurum gear?

Tiericide sounds like a great model for a subscription based game... but not sure how you would convince people to monetize if there is nothing worthwhile to purchase in game.

Who the hell "liked" that post?



... the game is progression based and rewards specialization. They get money from you wanting to progress faster (i.e. boosters & aur gear). What you suggest minimizes any reason to progress and turns it into even more of a pop-in pop-out lobby shooter... so they don't make any money. We WANT them to make money to spur continued development and eventually marketing ...

I contend the issue is primarily economic rather than balance and has to do with isk faucets, isk sinks, and the current ability of high-level players in PC-participating corps to spam proto without regard to ISK cost.

And I've been playing EvE for years, so I understand tiers and tiericide ... despite your post.

Also, they're about to release a matchmaking patch that will hopefully address match imbalance and cause posters like OP to STFU about protostomping already.

Honestly, I would rather have them turn those "Mercenary" battle into sort of an "instant battle/Faction Warfare" for proto suits. With higher/unique rewards.

Although I do understand why you want tiericide (it's to help with new player retention, correct?), I believe there are better ways to solve that problem such as PVE, matchmaking, and getting skilled players OUT of instant battle and INTO Faction Warfare.

What about aurum gear?

Tiericide sounds like a great model for a subscription based game... but not sure how you would convince people to monetize if there is nothing worthwhile to purchase in game.

Wouldn't fix basic suits being useless, or some classes being better than others...... And this would make everything even more specialized.

There is precedent; capital ships in EvE are not allowed in HISEC; since the gear is "prototype" it could be restricted/banned from hisec (Pub Matches for the uninitiated) by some futuristic Geneva convention.

There is precedent; capital ships in EvE are not allowed in HISEC; since the gear is "prototype" it could be restricted/banned from hisec (Pub Matches for the uninitiated) by some futuristic Geneva convention.

Humm.... this might work better, as it will be easier to fit things.... Wait no, it wouldn't do, as there should be a skill to reduce things fitting cost (I mean everything), because modules wouldn't get changed. If everything is PROTO, and this were to happen, we could get some really ridiculous fits. How about STD for MLT, and ADV. for STD?

A Capital is a huge ship it's like a tank compared to a scout (Frigate)

Proto is just better, not bigger.

A Capital is a huge ship it's like a tank compared to a scout (Frigate)

Proto is just better, not bigger.

Agreed, but it's a 'precedent' no matter how thin the thread holding it together is. And it's better than "let's change the entire game from scratch cuz THAT doesn't take any dev man hours and just say Fuckitall.... you all get the same ****"

/shrug

Would require implimentation of additional FW battlemodes though.

Agreed, but it's a 'precedent' no matter how thin the thread holding it together is. And it's better than "let's change the entire game from scratch cuz THAT doesn't take any dev man hours and just say Fuckitall.... you all get the same ****"

/shrug

Would require implimentation of additional FW battlemodes though.

Tieracide worked greatly in Eve Online which, for those who don't know it yet, is the big sister of Dust 514.

However, I'm still wanting to be cautious about the whole tieracide concept. I would first wait until most (emphasis on the word "most") of the suits, vehicles, modules, equipment, and weapons have been implemented and fairly balanced.

Once that is done you then have to consider the design of the skill tree itself. That will have to be revamped big time first.

You also have to remember that in Eve Online, the Brutix, Myrmidon, and Talos are still in their own separate tiers. We don't call a Talos a Tier III battlecuiser for nothing even after the tieracide. You still need Battlecuiser Level 3 to access the Talos compared to the Myrmidon and the Brutix. But overall each ship in the class still have their unique roles but can still be used for purposes outside their roles.

All things considered, AURUM items probably won't be impacted. At least not in a bad way.

I swear some people are plain stupid. this is NOT EVE. If a player gets his proto gear is to use it. Stop QQ about everything jeebus xrist....

This is also not a lot of other games there is much to learn from EVE.

I swear some people are plain stupid. this is NOT EVE. If a player gets his proto gear is to use it. Stop QQ about everything jeebus xrist....

I swear some people are plain stupid. this is NOT EVE. If a player gets his proto gear is to use it. Stop QQ about everything jeebus xrist....

/Facepalms

Please take a good HARD look at the Dust 514 logo located on the top-left corner of this page. Tell me. What do you see above the word "DUST 514"? Eve, right? Does the game's lore match up with Eve? Yes, right? Does the game have you play as one of the four major factions of New Eden? Yes, right? Now take a look at a number of corps around here. Take a look at my corp, Dust University, and notice how many Eve characters you see in the corp. The same goes with all the other major corps out there.

Will we have a complex market in Dust just like in Eve? Yes.
Will we be able to scam each other and run complex ponzi schemes without getting banned by CCP? We can already do that.
Did the first beta testers for this game consist mostly of Eve players who got free early access to closed-beta? Yup.
Do we have a player-run council that is soon to become just like that of the Eve Online player-run council? Yup.
Do you see extreme metagaming in Dust just like in Eve? Yup.

Case closed.

/Facepalms

Please take a good HARD look at the Dust 514 logo located on the top-left corner of this page. Tell me. What do you see above the word "DUST 514"? Eve, right? Does the game's lore match up with Eve? Yes, right? Does the game have you play as one of the four major factions of New Eden? Yes, right? Now take a look at a number of corps around here. Take a look at my corp, Dust University, and notice how many Eve characters you see in the corp. The same goes with all the other major corps out there.

Will we have a complex market in Dust just like in Eve? Yes.
Will we be able to scam each other and run complex ponzi schemes without getting banned by CCP? We can already do that.
Did the first beta testers for this game consist mostly of Eve players who got free early access to closed-beta? Yup.
Do we have a player-run council that is soon to become just like that of the Eve Online player-run council? Yup.
Do you see extreme metagaming in Dust just like in Eve? Yup.

Case closed.

honestly... the number of slots and the ability to customize cool fits is the only fun thing about this game.

I defo vote +1 on removing everything sub Proto, MLT-ADV gear sucks and is not fun to run at all.

World of Warcraft has the name WARCRAFT on it

Its not the same game.

Same universe? yes, same game? NO.

Case closed.

If i wanted to play EVE, i WOULD PLAY EVE.
Im playing DUST because its not eve... >..>

Yup, sorry for making sense and leaving you without a comeback. It happens.

Actually, you made no sense at all and you missed my point. Dust has everything about Eve coursing through its veins. Dust, according to CCP, will just be a different window looking into the same universe that Eve players are in.

Besides, CCP is the final authority on this and if they feel (maybe 5 years down the road) that maybe tieracide in order, then they will make their choice not only based on player feedback but also on the data they collected from how we use our items in the game.

Let's also not forget that it wasn't until well over 7 years after Eve Online was released that it finally underwent a tieracide. Therefore you have 5-7 years of tier-based fun to enjoy in Dust if the same pattern is followed.

Actually, I don't think YOU understand tiericide.

Not 1 plasma rifle (that's stupid)- many plasma rifles with different stats. Like how we now have vanilla, breach, tactical, and burst- only more variety.

But yes, not having any weapon be blatantly more powerful than another is the main idea.

nono, i get the point. I just feel that for a ''RPG'' type FPS, whats the point of getting SP if im not getting BETTER stuff for it?

Simple: make skills more meaningful.

What about aurum gear?

Tiericide sounds like a great model for a subscription based game... but not sure how you would convince people to monetize if there is nothing worthwhile to purchase in game.

Finally someone said something sane in these 'tiericide' theads. I get the feeling that these tiericide topics are started by 12 year olds. Wake up ppl: we have tiers because it's one of the very few things CCP can do to make money in a F2P game.

Don't get me wrong... I think it would be great. I hate the fact that prototype gear is the only gear worth using and I have to grind for weeks to unlock each prototype piece but I just don't know how you would monetize.

There are ways I'm sure. Like having each level be 5% more passive power to item x and a aurum item that is 25% flat with no skill mods etc.

Just saying... the game was built around an aurum monetization model that capitalizes on these tiers... it'll be years and year before anything can really be done.

But hey... if they keep vehicles the way they are (no tiers) then they could eventually do the same to dropsuits and weapons, its not unheard of or impossible.

Don't get me wrong... I think it would be great. I hate the fact that prototype gear is the only gear worth using and I have to grind for weeks to unlock each prototype piece but I just don't know how you would monetize.

There are ways I'm sure. Like having each level be 5% more passive power to item x and a aurum item that is 25% flat with no skill mods etc.

Just saying... the game was built around an aurum monetization model that capitalizes on these tiers... it'll be years and year before anything can really be done.

But hey... if they keep vehicles the way they are (no tiers) then they could eventually do the same to dropsuits and weapons, its not unheard of or impossible.

I have to disagree with you there, the aurum system is mainly built around sp boosters, they are by far the most important thing to spend aurum on, aurum gear takes 3rd place behind BPO's IMO. The only purpose aurum gear serves is to let you try the tier above you, once you've achieved that tier you have no reason to use that gear, beyond trying to save yourself some ISK. Tiercide would require a shift no doubt about that, but they could be replaced with vanity suits or weapons, other F2P games have successfully used that model.

Actually, I don't think YOU understand tiericide.

Not 1 plasma rifle (that's stupid)- many plasma rifles with different stats. Like how we now have vanilla, breach, tactical, and burst- only more variety.

But yes, not having any weapon be blatantly more powerful than another is the main idea.

were you living under a rock up untill now?

Nah. This is a FPS, Infantry should ALWAYS have priority over vehicles.
so no.

The fact that you can't customize your gun or any of he gear really is horrible. DUST is bad and everyone should feel bad for supporting it, I do.

Also, teircide is stupid when half of the suits aren't even in game yet.

I recently found out that some people still don't get tiercide....... That's just sad.


tiercide- The act of murdering tiers.

You get rid of any tiers in the game, or at least anything that overpowers something else over a wide scale, then make a verity of variants for those things.

ex. the T I Gallente BC's in EVE are called the Brutix, Myrmidon, and Talos. If my memory serves me right, when EVE was under the tier system, the Talos was the "PROTO" Gallente BC, Myrmidon was the "ADV.", and and the Brutix was the "STD" . And, although slightly different, just like now with dust, the Talos was the best to use. When tiercide happened, they were rebalanced, and (although imo the Myrmidon is now the best, cuz' drones), they all have their roles, one being the CQ DPS monster, one being the medium range support, and one being the Long range sniper.

Now that (hopefully) the fools that don't get it do, I will say how I think it should go down: All PROTO weapons, turrets, equipment, and frames should be deleted. After, some things should happen:

For weapons and turrets: Only have one kind of gun, and call it something neat, for example, the GEK-38 Plasma Rifle. From there, we will do a mass change to all of the weapons and turrets, making them T III equipment. What that means in simple terms is add weapon customization. Do the same for vehicle turrets. Now, add AUR variants that have prefits of the weapon modules on them, and make them to where they're similar/same as the variants as we have today. Make them cost no SP.

For suit Frames and vehicle hulls: Get rid of the ADV. and PROTO ones, and add variants that have slight changes to them, like speed, scanning, etc. then give them bonuses for their specific role, like a slight reduction to equipment, or a ROF bonus/level.

For T II frames and hulls: Same as the T I ones, but give them more of a reason to exist other than being just flat out better; a defined role. Like taking away sidearms from most Logis isn't a good idea, but making their weapons weaker, but making the equipment more efficient. ex. There should be a Logi-like T I frame. It wouldn't out-preform it in Logi roles, but if it got in a fight with a Logi frame, it would win, unless the Logi is a good fighter, or gets lucky.


For modules and equipment: Modules should stay as is (tier wise), as I see nothing wrong with them being like that. Equipment should get rid of the STD and PROTO versions, and keep the ADV versions.

Now balance for CPU/PG.


Peace, Aizen

By the sound of your point you think Dust is horrible only because there's no minor bonus option of weapon customization.

You are missing the point.
If those suits are designed correctly - and balanced so that they all really are usable - there will be no need for tiericide.

Also, if current mechanics and balance is broken, then any new stuff will be built on broken ground and therefore being broken from beginning.

I'll admit that I didn't read most of your post, so there is a chance that what you're saying makes sense, but the fact that you used the Gal battlecruisers as an example of tiericide makes me think that you don't even know what it is, and what it did for Eve.

The Talos, while being a Tier 3 BC, was neither superior or better than any Tier 1 or 2 BC from any race. All Tier 3 BCs were niche hulls introduced to fit battleship class weapons at the sacrifice of fitting tank, to make a better glass cannon used for camping; be it gate, station, or POS. Given the right situation, they were/are great hulls. To the example, the Myrm and the Brutix were both beasts in the right hands. The Myrm often overshadowed the Brutix due to it's better combat and fitting flexibility, but that still stands today, after the tiericide.

Most ship classes, even though they were divided into Tiers, were well purposed through roles. The tiers had little to do with how well the individual ships performed. The most significant class that was suffering from tiers were the battleships, as the tier 3 BS generally, but not exclusively, dominated all engagements that battleships excelled at. Frigates suffered because most frigates were useless in combat, except the high tier "combat" frigates, which still are among the best combat frigates. Now, post tiericide, there are some more frigates that are combat viable, but certainly not all.

As some people pointed out, this isn't Eve, but by using Eve as an example of why tiericide should be implemented, you need to know that all it really did for the majority of the content, is get rid of the word Tier. Hulls still have roles. You still have to train skills to use hulls more effectively, and you still have to pick the appropriate hull and fitting for the task at hand.

All that said, Dust isn't ready for tiericide in any form. Since tiers are already fleshed out and skill trees already implemented, but not all content introduced, CCP needs to stay the path until the game is fully fleshed out.

No, DUST is bad because there is no option for anything.


The whole of the game is broke. By making everything the same you are not going to fix it. Maybe we should just have the same stats on everything, that way people can just pick the suits and weapons that they think look the coolest and leave it at that. Let all your skills change your combat effectiveness and there you go, no more proto stompings.

Lastly, I didn't say Dust was ready, I said it should happen, but hope it would come soon. I would solve several problems. PROTO stomps would be non existent, more verity would spawn as people tried out other suits for different reasons, it basically solves the PROTO AV STD vehicle problem altogether. And people wouldn't need to have respecs, as everything is easier to get at entry level, but hard to master (as it should be).

TL;DR You need to read, as you would have got the point. And EVE stuff you burn you.

Honestly, I would rather have them turn those "Mercenary" battle into sort of an "instant battle/Faction Warfare" for proto suits. With higher/unique rewards.

Although I do understand why you want tiericide (it's to help with new player retention, correct?), I believe there are better ways to solve that problem such as PVE, matchmaking, and getting skilled players OUT of instant battle and INTO Faction Warfare.

The whole of the game is broke. By making everything the same you are not going to fix it. Maybe we should just have the same stats on everything, that way people can just pick the suits and weapons that they think look the coolest and leave it at that. Let all your skills change your combat effectiveness and there you go, no more proto stompings.

Tiericide is not about making everything same.
The power level is supposed to be roughly the same yes, but the things in question could be very different indeed. A poor example would be shotgun and an AR, both light weps and usable but radically different roles/uses.

Tiericide affects more the same general category of things, like five different guns of increasing power levels but no handicaps whatsoever, they are good to inspect with tiericide in mind.

If there is any thing which is totally obsolete because there is by all counts a better version of it, then tiericide is gonna cure it.

I recently found out that some people still don't get tiercide....... That's just sad.


tiercide- The act of murdering tiers.

You get rid of any tiers in the game, or at least anything that overpowers something else over a wide scale, then make a verity of variants for those things.

ex. the T I Gallente BC's in EVE are called the Brutix, Myrmidon, and Talos. If my memory serves me right, when EVE was under the tier system, the Talos was the "PROTO" Gallente BC, Myrmidon was the "ADV.", and and the Brutix was the "STD" . And, although slightly different, just like now with dust, the Talos was the best to use. When tiercide happened, they were rebalanced, and (although imo the Myrmidon is now the best, cuz' drones), they all have their roles, one being the CQ DPS monster, one being the medium range support, and one being the Long range sniper.

Now that (hopefully) the fools that don't get it do, I will say how I think it should go down: All PROTO weapons, turrets, equipment, and frames should be deleted. After, some things should happen:

For weapons and turrets: Only have one kind of gun, and call it something neat, for example, the GEK-38 Plasma Rifle. From there, we will do a mass change to all of the weapons and turrets, making them T III equipment. What that means in simple terms is add weapon customization. Do the same for vehicle turrets. Now, add AUR variants that have prefits of the weapon modules on them, and make them to where they're similar/same as the variants as we have today. Make them cost no SP.

For suit Frames and vehicle hulls: Get rid of the ADV. and PROTO ones, and add variants that have slight changes to them, like speed, scanning, etc. then give them bonuses for their specific role, like a slight reduction to equipment, or a ROF bonus/level.

For T II frames and hulls: Same as the T I ones, but give them more of a reason to exist other than being just flat out better; a defined role. Like taking away sidearms from most Logis isn't a good idea, but making their weapons weaker, but making the equipment more efficient. ex. There should be a Logi-like T I frame. It wouldn't out-preform it in Logi roles, but if it got in a fight with a Logi frame, it would win, unless the Logi is a good fighter, or gets lucky.


For modules and equipment: Modules should stay as is (tier wise), as I see nothing wrong with them being like that. Equipment should get rid of the STD and PROTO versions, and keep the ADV versions.

Now balance for CPU/PG.


Peace, Aizen

Bullshit about the Talos being superior before tiercide and you know it

Just because it was/is T III, doesn't mean anything. It was superior, and is now balanced.

Also, I don't remember getting my ass handed by a Brutix ever. I would always out tank the things, then roast them with sentries (or if they were too close, heavy drones), and snipe then with Rails.

Lastly, I didn't say Dust was ready, I said it should happen, but hope it would come soon.

PROTO stomps would be non existent,

Proto gear costs more. You want advantage, you pay for for it. That is the balancing factor. You want to stop getting proto stomped, buy your own proto suits and organize a team. Making everything "different" but all the same power is the same thing as just removing stat and slot difference. Tiercide in DUST will not work, because their are no tiers. A basic suit should not be the same as a proto assault. It makes no sense to put so many SP into something that is not better. And if you do go ahead and nerf higher level suits, then you better make SP effect suits that much more or else it would be pointless to even level past the basic. Tiercide is dumb, and you are as well for thinking that is the problem with this game.

trollolol very funny

Look, again, the only way it works is if you remove tiers for suits but retain tiers for modules, equipment, and weapons.

Different tiers of gear is part of what makes the whole fitting system work. If you take those out, you severely limit that normally almost limitless potential.

Notice that though the went through and removed tiers from ships in EVE, they never looked at removing them for equipment, because that would wreck the fitting system.

Mobius here is exactly right.

The reason is that modules and suits are very different:

Better modules have greater power but also higher fitting costs (PG/CPU)
Suits and vehicle hulls are frames onto which modules are built on. Better frames have more fitting and slots.


That means better frames are absolutely more powerful.
Whereas modules are balanced by the fitting costs (and some other extra costs such as shield or movement penalty)

In many cases it's a no-brainer to choose the most powerful thing. A no-brainer is bad for gameplay.
The very essence of tiericide is to fix that and not to have obsolete frames. Surely everyone can agree that is good, right?

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