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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
1
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi there Mercenaries,
So as many of you noticed, we made some adjustments to the Battle Academy (the new player battle queue) in Uprising 1.3 last week. Today, you'll notice in the patchnotes that we're adjusting it again. If you're reading this thread, it's probably because you're interested in knowing why, so let me try and explain
The short version is that we're trying to figure out exactly what works, in terms of giving new players the best experience possible.
In 1.3, we did an experiment to see what effect giving new players the simplest possible game mode would have, by moving the Academy to a 16-player Ambush map. Our provisional conclusion is "new players don't really like super-simple game modes", so today we're switching the Academy queue over to 32-player Domination. This adds more players, and takes the experience closer to the "full-fat" Skirmish mode while still (hopefully!) keeping the game flow easily comprehensible.
We're also adjusting the War Point total you need to accumulate in order to graduate from the Academy, down to 400 War Points. This didn't seem like a very large number to most of us here, but our metrics suggest the median new player is scoring about 100 WP per battle, so this has them graduating from the Academy after probably 3-5 battles (with better players graduating sooner and less able ones staying longer, of course). Once graduated, players are free to join any of the normal game modes.
This is an ongoing experiment, so we're expecting to make further changes in the coming weeks, to try out new theories and home in on the best experience. Happily, we've got a reasonably comprehensive set of metrics tracking retention and so on, so we have a pretty good overview of the trends involved.
If you have any questions, please ask away and I'll try and answer as best I can.
Cheers, -Greyscale |
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Absolute Idiom II
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
302
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd like to suggest a lower and upper WP limit to graduating from the Battle Academy. when you hit the lower limit (say 400 WP) you are also allowed to freely choose the other game modes - but, crucially, the Battle Academy will remain as an option until you hit the upper limit (say 2000 WP).
This allows players to 'graduate' at their own pace, whilst giving them a walled garden for the first sets of matches they complete. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
149
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
I saw a review that unironically said that Dust was too easy.
Opening up other game modes is key towards getting supposedly-good players into the meaty parts of the game, but like Absolute Idiom said, it's important to give them the safety net of the academy if they discover they need more time in the kiddy pool. |
Absolute Idiom II
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
302
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
One 'problem' with Domination matches for newbies is that they'll all have to spawn a mile away from the Control Point since there is no education that uplinks should be used for spawning (other games (CoD, BF3) use squad spawning).
Are you able to introduce newbie focused splash screens for players not yet out of the battle academy? Or maybe allow any player to browse/peruse all the possible splash screens at their leisure? |
Protocake JR
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
373
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
The game modes are not hard to understand. It's standard cookie cutter capture control with lolMCC timers.
You need to be teaching players how to fit their suits. What skills to upgrade. Most people coming into this game are not going to know the difference between the shield recharger and shield regulator. The very first time I played this game, I explored the market and skill lists for probably about an hour or so before I actually began playing. That's way too long. And i'm sure it's even worse with the introduction of new modules, suits, and weapons.
Give back to the academy the rotation of ambush and skimish variants. It will look more presentable than what you have now. Work on better tutorials (videos, not walls of text) and simplify the market place. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
3
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
All this experimentation is in service of building a better understanding of how new players actually behave, which we can then lean on in future to build a better overall new player experience. We're very aware of the need to review all aspects of the way we introduce DUST to new players; what we're doing here is just trying to learn what we can with the tools already in place. |
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Absolute Idiom II
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
302
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Would your currents tools allow you to have a lower/upper limit for the BA, as per my suggestion? |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
644
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Protocake JR wrote:The game modes are not hard to understand. It's standard cookie cutter capture control with lolMCC timers.
You need to be teaching players how to fit their suits. What skills to upgrade. Most people coming into this game are not going to know the difference between the shield recharger and shield regulator. The very first time I played this game, I explored the market and skill lists for probably about an hour or so before I actually began playing. That's way too long for a lot of people. And i'm sure it's even worse with the introduction of new modules, suits, and weapons.
Give back to the academy the rotation of ambush and skimish variants. It will look more presentable than what you have now. Work on better tutorials for upgrading skills (videos, not walls of text) and simplify the market place. Play the DOTA 2 tutorial, CCP. That's what you're aiming for, right there. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
3
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:Would your currents tools allow you to have a lower/upper limit for the BA, as per my suggestion?
We're actually looking into this at the moment |
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Michael Arck
sephiroth clones D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
476
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Protocake JR wrote:The game modes are not hard to understand. It's standard cookie cutter capture control with lolMCC timers.
You need to be teaching players how to fit their suits. What skills to upgrade. Most people coming into this game are not going to know the difference between the shield recharger and shield regulator. The very first time I played this game, I explored the market and skill lists for probably about an hour or so before I actually began playing. That's way too long for a lot of people. And i'm sure it's even worse with the introduction of new modules, suits, and weapons.
Give back to the academy the rotation of ambush and skimish variants. It will look more presentable than what you have now. Work on better tutorials for upgrading skills (videos, not walls of text) and simplify the market place.
I highly disagree. I don't think its CCP job to do that. Hear me out before you spit out your drink. When I first played this game, I was a little overwhelmed. I didn't know exactly what I was looking at or how I wanted to build. I knew I wanted an assault guy but I didn't know how to exactly create that mercenary with the SP system.
So you know what my first thoughts were? Go to the forums and youtube. I did my homework. I read for hours and watched various videos. Also, my corporation extended a hand in helping me get adjusted to NE. I feel the hand holding by CCP is unnecessary. This is New Eden. You either learn how to survive or be swallowed up by it. That's why there are guides out there to help new mercs. It's on the merc to find that acquire that information. |
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Absolute Idiom II
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
302
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sorry, you can't both advocate the learning cliff and then tell us that you used 3rd party resources to help you climb it.
I certainly see a role for 3rd party guides in helping players with the decision on the WHAT (how to play better or improve their skill/equipment choices) but not for how to understand the core concepts of HOW. HOW should definitely be handled by the in game client, through tutorials, better UI, etc. |
steadyhand amarr
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
1029
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
..... I make 1-2k per match what is wrong with our new players that's like 2 hacks and 6kills to grad?? |
bolsh lee
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
339
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
ummmmm my alt just graduated the academy in one game qued for a Skirmish and got put against a entire squad of my own alliance vets (10mil skill points plus).. Thanks Greyscale I knew i was destined for greatness after 400wp! Pics to come ! |
Protocake JR
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
375
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote: I highly disagree. I don't think its CCP job to do that. Hear me out before you spit out your drink. When I first played this game, I was a little overwhelmed. I didn't know exactly what I was looking at or how I wanted to build. I knew I wanted an assault guy but I didn't know how to exactly create that mercenary with the SP system.
So you know what my first thoughts were? Go to the forums and youtube. I did my homework. I read for hours and watched various videos. Also, my corporation extended a hand in helping me get adjusted to NE. I feel the hand holding by CCP is unnecessary. This is New Eden. You either learn how to survive and be swallowed up by it. That's why there are guides out there to help new mercs. It's on the merc to find that acquire that information.
God, this type of mentality is getting old.
Congratulations, you are part of the 1%. People need to stop treating this game as it's own grand universe when this game hasn't even begun to stand up on it's own. Nobody gives a **** if this is New Eden. Sorry to put it bluntly, but look at the player counts for yourself. Nobody cares.
Treat this game as is. It's poorly designed, and if you don't go out of your way and look for second hand information, then you need to HTFU and GTFO of New Eden and find a new game to play (BF4/PS2).
Like I said. Bad game design. |
Michael Arck
sephiroth clones D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
476
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:Sorry, you can't both advocate the learning cliff and then tell us that you used 3rd party resources to help you climb it.
I certainly see a role for 3rd party guides in helping players with the decision on the WHAT (how to play better or improve their skill/equipment choices) but not for how to understand the core concepts of HOW. HOW should definitely be handled by the in game client, through tutorials, better UI, etc.
Okay but I mentioned other things besides guides. I mentioned community. I mentioned corporation. I don't understand. I was able to learn through that process, how can it not be for others?
Also, do we really need to put that on CCP's platter? Isn't that just the way of Dust? I mean, EVE is pretty much the same way. There isn't a grand, detailed oriented in-game tutorial that explains all the nuances of that game. So why do we need this hand holding, leash the little kid affair?
If the community took more time in helping other mercs instead of complaining about every single thing, we would be ahead of the game. You want this, you want that. CCP do this. CCP do that.
Why can't the community help out??? What's the problem with that? In fact, the new ISK guide is out and its free to download. That's a comprehensive guide for people to use. What's wrong with that? Why are we asking CCP to take time out to create a massive tutorial in game? Shouldn't the time spent on making a tutorial, which ironically already has been done by other players if you look for it, be used for other important stuff?
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Michael Arck
sephiroth clones D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
476
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Protocake JR wrote:Michael Arck wrote: I highly disagree. I don't think its CCP job to do that. Hear me out before you spit out your drink. When I first played this game, I was a little overwhelmed. I didn't know exactly what I was looking at or how I wanted to build. I knew I wanted an assault guy but I didn't know how to exactly create that mercenary with the SP system.
So you know what my first thoughts were? Go to the forums and youtube. I did my homework. I read for hours and watched various videos. Also, my corporation extended a hand in helping me get adjusted to NE. I feel the hand holding by CCP is unnecessary. This is New Eden. You either learn how to survive and be swallowed up by it. That's why there are guides out there to help new mercs. It's on the merc to find that acquire that information.
God, this type of mentality is getting old. Congratulations, you are part of the 1%. People need to stop treating this game as it's own grand universe when this game hasn't even begun to stand up on it's own. Nobody gives a **** if this is New Eden. Sorry to put it bluntly, but look at the player counts for yourself. Nobody cares. Treat this game as is. It's poorly designed, and if you don't go out of your way and look for second hand information, then you need to HTFU and GTFO of New Eden and find a new game to play (BF4/PS2). Like I said. Bad game design.
Ok. So are you really adding something constructive to the table? Something that would better the experience of the new player??
Fortitude is a mentality that never gets old. |
Halador Osiris
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
546
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Greyscale, is there any intent to move over to a battle system like this? |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
558
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
Players are averaging 100 WP a game against people in equivalent gear? Ignoring the part where this is so low I can almost guarantee you're wrong (despite whatever your metrics say), what are they supposed to do when they get to the regular queues and everyone has better gear? 25 WP per game? They get one assist and that's it? I don't understand your logic.
Until you get a much better matchmaking system this is all irrelevant anyway.
You should also completely remove the SP cap until players hit like 5 million SP. |
Protocake JR
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
378
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
@Michael
Much has already been said about what can be done to improve the new player experience. That's what we are trying to discuss.
You are the one who is offering nothing to the table other than "let the newbie scour the internet for information. DIS IS NEW EDEN!", information that should be easily available in-game.
You sound like one of those old 70 year olds who are "set in their ways". This is a video game. It can and will cease to exist if player counts keep dropping. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
558
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
There really needs to be a dislike button. |
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2-Ton Twenty-One
Ancient Exiles Negative-Feedback
881
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:All this experimentation is in service of building a better understanding of how new players actually behave, which we can then lean on in future to build a better overall new player experience. We're very aware of the need to review all aspects of the way we introduce DUST to new players; what we're doing here is just trying to learn what we can with the tools already in place.
You are really, really behind on the times if you are a year after beta and months into release before you start taking a serious look at how new players behave.... We had a whole beta where we where literally giving you solutions, and you guys tested like 0 of them. Dam right I'm bitter. |
N1ck Comeau
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
911
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
If your gonna do a change like this, give new player 1 million sp to start a character. Or perhaps triple SP, (without any cap) until 6 million sp. Make sure to explain to new players that that 3x sp won't be forever, and that 6 million is a good spot to be in. but of course your gonna need more. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
DUST University Ivy League
110
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote:If your gonna do a change like this, give new player 1 million sp to start a character. Or perhaps triple SP, (without any cap) until 6 million sp. Make sure to explain to new players that that 3x sp won't be forever, and that 6 million is a good spot to be in. but of course your gonna need more.
And a respec or three, so that when they balls everything up, they can try again and maybe do better this time. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
150
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Posted - 2013.08.06 14:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Players are averaging 100 WP a game against people in equivalent gear?
That number can be both 100% true and 100% misleading at the same time, depending on how little statistical analysis you do. |
Mamertine Son
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2013.08.06 14:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
I generally make an alt, play in academy, kill it and repeat just so I can play in academy at least once a week. (I can make about 1k wp per game so thats only ten games total). I find it therapeutic. After dying over and over against top players I kind of get used to the concept of dying and find myself jumping in front of scout toting shotgunners like an idiot. Playing academy helps remind me that its ok to keep distance and run when I have to instead of trying to make the kill.
I would recommend other players try this since I think its helpful in maintaining one's sanity but with a 400wp cap that's probably not viable nemore.
Anyway, not the point. I figure your getting 100wp average from academy players because there are players like me who are jumping back into it with their alts. I'm for sure not a fps prodigy (see my bf3 kdr) but my familiarity with the game mechanics, how to fit my suit, and basic map knowledge pretty much allows me to stomp all of the new players.
If it was your plan to keep players like me out of academy then I get it but keep checking those numbers because I imagine they're going to change. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1755
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Posted - 2013.08.06 14:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
4 games in academy is a bit on the low side for training. I wonder if the average accounts for people afk-ing.
400 WP is 8 kills
or 2 kills + 2 objective hacks + 2 other hacks.
or 16 spawns off of droplinks (put two down in a match with a lot of people dying... and nothing else, and get kicked from academy)
Vets sometimes have a skewed perception (average players getting 1500 WP per battle, etc.), but 400 as an upper limit seems to be in the opposite direction. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
914
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Posted - 2013.08.06 14:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
You are changing multiple variables at once but basing your decision to reduce graduation requirements on the older setup. I would have changed the academy mode and then checked the WP average for that.
I also vote for opening the opportunity to move out of the academy battles but leaving the option there for some time.
I also suggest giving faster SP accrual during some initial period. |
Absolute Idiom II
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
311
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Posted - 2013.08.06 14:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Players are averaging 100 WP a game against people in equivalent gear? Ignoring the part where this is so low I can almost guarantee you're wrong (despite whatever your metrics say), what are they supposed to do when they get to the regular queues and everyone has better gear? 25 WP per game? They get one assist and that's it? I don't understand your logic.
Until you get a much better matchmaking system this is all irrelevant anyway.
You should also completely remove the SP cap until players hit like 5 million SP.
He did say median [average], not mean [average]. This means that if you ranked all the new players, the ones half way up/down score 100 per match. The mean [average] could indeed be much higher as it will pulled up by the players who are right at the top.
To put it another way, the '1%' at the top hog many more WP than you might expect.
I'd tempted to agree with you on the 'no SP cap until 5 mil SP' point but I have a concern about the creation of highly specialised alts. |
FATCannon - XOXO
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2013.08.06 15:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
400 WP? You guys don't listen to feedback do you... We always say that the newbies NEED more time in the academy to get their role to at least ADV levels (2-3 million SP). Then after graduating they can safely face the hordes of proto stompers by having decent gear and experience in the game. Increase WP for graduation to like 50k or something, 10k is too low and 400....wow.
This game is all about skirmish so let them play that mode as default. Or to make things more entertaining, put up 2 queues, one called "Battle Academy Ambush" and the other "Battle Academy Skirmish". Some might not like Skirmish or could get bored and want a faster mode so they should have the option to queue ambush as well.
-XOXO |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
645
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Posted - 2013.08.06 15:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:You are changing multiple variables at once but basing your decision to reduce graduation requirements on the older setup. I would have changed the academy mode and then checked the WP average for that.
I also vote for opening the opportunity to move out of the academy battles but leaving the option there for some time.
I also suggest giving faster SP accrual during some initial period. +1. Controlling variables - that's good science and good thinking.
I've noticed CCP has a proclivity for changing multiple variables simultaneously. |
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