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Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1805
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 23:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
I love my Shield Tank, I love fighting with it constantly and I love the tank fights I get, it was great when everyone else was using Shield Tanks, I felt I was needed in a Corp Battle to compete.
The last 10-15 battles, I've been decimated by Armor Tanks, and it's not because I need to "lern2tank" or anything idiotic, it's simply because Armor Tanking is a **** load better than Shield Tanking, it's not even funny anymore CCP, don't give me "Wait a year because we'll have features that make each one more viable in different situations", No. You released the game from BETA, you can't tell me that this half ass balance is because features aren't in, they need to be balanced.
It's disappointing being a tanker, being a corp battle as an Anti Tank vehicle, only to say "Sorry guys, it's an armor tank, I can't do anything" and then have to back off and bring out a Forge and chase it around the map. If the Armor Tanker matches me in Skill, he will win, if he's "decent" it'll be 50/50 and if he's ****, theres still a possibility he'll win.
CCP, you have all these teams, maybe you need to get MORE teams to balance stuff, or you know, the Vehicle team can actually tell us what they're planning on doing about the issues, CCP Blam! give us a response, seriously. |
Xocoyol Zaraoul
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
653
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 23:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Maybe it is on purpose as they think it is made up by us taking the current AV weaponry so well due to shielding... But yeah, versus other HAVs I have to go to ridiculous lengths to kill a Gallente non-crap fit with my Caldari fit. |
SENATOR KODOS
Absentee AFK Regiment
279
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 23:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
lol you specced into tanks and consider yourself a tanker in Dust
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Beld Errmon
D3M3NT3D M1NDZ Orion Empire
700
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 00:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Don't worry considering how terrible shield tanks have had it for such a long time, when they do a rebalance its going to swing in shields favor, and armor tankers like me who haven't spent diddly on shields are gunna be QQing. |
Knight SoIaire
Rent-A-Murder Taxi
1130
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 00:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Just make the Shield Modules (Boosters and Hardeners in particular) match Armour modules.
Nerfing Armour tanks will only make them worse Vs Armour Based AV, and they already are. |
Cy Clone1
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 00:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
the argument that most av weapons are better vs armor cant be made because the fact that armor tanks have more ehp, better mods, higher speeds, and faster reps that heal more makes that argument worthless. not to mention shield tanks cant aim as far down, so its even harder for them to red line. armor tanks can increase cpu by 25% we are forced to use mods. |
The Attorney General
ZionTCD
269
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 00:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cy Clone1 wrote: armor tanks can increase cpu by 25% we are forced to use mods.
I'm sorry, what? |
The Attorney General
ZionTCD
269
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 00:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Knight SoIaire wrote:Just make the Shield Modules (Boosters and Hardeners in particular) match Armour modules.
Nerfing Armour tanks will only make them worse Vs Armour Based AV, and they already are.
That would make Armor tanks obsolete overnight.
Why would I run a tank that is slightly faster without plates when I could run a tank that has better resistances to the two most popular forms of AV AND can run damage mods without completely sacrificing its tank?
Not that I don't think shield tanks are UP right now, but I think we need to think about this about more thoroughly before we start throwing out possible solutions that the crackpots at CCP might take seriously. |
The Attorney General
ZionTCD
269
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 00:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Don't worry considering how terrible shield tanks have had it for such a long time, when they do a rebalance its going to swing in shields favor, and armor tankers like me who haven't spent diddly on shields are gunna be QQing.
It has only been bad for them since uprising.
In Chromosome a rail Gunloggi would eat a Madrugar for breakfast because of the broken stacking penalties and the damage mods.
I don't doubt that anyone not in a gunloggi next build is going to suffer for it. That is why I am working on my shield skills instead of saving up for a pilot suit. |
Cy Clone1
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 00:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Cy Clone1 wrote: armor tanks can increase cpu by 25% we are forced to use mods. I'm sorry, what?
vehicle electronics skill increases your maximum cpu by 5% per level. armor tanks have low cpu.
vehicle engineering skill decrease cpu cost of pg mods by 5% per level. shield tanks have low pg. |
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Beld Errmon
D3M3NT3D M1NDZ Orion Empire
700
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 00:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:Don't worry considering how terrible shield tanks have had it for such a long time, when they do a rebalance its going to swing in shields favor, and armor tankers like me who haven't spent diddly on shields are gunna be QQing. It has only been bad for them since uprising. In Chromosome a rail Gunloggi would eat a Madrugar for breakfast because of the broken stacking penalties and the damage mods. I don't doubt that anyone not in a gunloggi next build is going to suffer for it. That is why I am working on my shield skills instead of saving up for a pilot suit.
I disagreed then and I still do my rail madruger was more than a match for the gunnlogi, I think the only thing that set them apart was the gunnlogi lighter frame allowing it to play peekaboo better. |
CharCharOdell
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
366
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 01:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Shield tanks and armor tanks were pretty balanced last build. I had my gunlogi stacked with double damage mods and i would destroy everything outside of 100m, but let even a sub-par armor tank with a blaster close that distance, and i didnt stand a chance bc my hardeners and reppers sucked. Caldari tanks are supposed to be long-range glass cannons, according to lore, and should reflect that. Either by giving all caldari tanks passive damage bonuses, or by bringing the damage mods back up where they were in Chromosome. Otherwise, we could just make armor tanks and shield tanks much more similar, but then nobody would armor tank bc of the weakness to explosives.
It has to be caldari kills tanks, gallente kills infantry like it used to be.
Buffing damage is more of an issue to armor and shield tankers, as tank turrets already OHK infantry. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
3756
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 01:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:Shield tanks and armor tanks were pretty balanced last build. I had my gunlogi stacked with double damage mods and i would destroy everything outside of 100m, but let even a sub-par armor tank with a blaster close that distance, and i didnt stand a chance bc my hardeners and reppers sucked. Caldari tanks are supposed to be long-range glass cannons, according to lore, and should reflect that. Either by giving all caldari tanks passive damage bonuses, or by bringing the damage mods back up where they were in Chromosome. Otherwise, we could just make armor tanks and shield tanks much more similar, but then nobody would armor tank bc of the weakness to explosives.
It has to be caldari kills tanks, gallente kills infantry like it used to be.
Buffing damage is more of an issue to armor and shield tankers, as tank turrets already OHK infantry.
no one wants 2 shot deaths and dmg mods never got nerfed the passive bonus was bugged
tanking shouldnt go back to cod **** 1st to shoot wins no way a tank will close the distance which was the problem when it was glitched.
E3 was pretty balanced. armor was still weaker but there was no 2 shot deaths |
Exmaple Core
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
494
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shield tanks are disgustingly underpowered this build, the distance between these two tanks are too much to even consider going sheild tanks. for Exmaple, i have 15.5 million SP into sheild tanks and have literally everything maxed out that matters. With a scattered neutron blaster and 2 damage mods on my gunlogi i can not deal damage to a well fit madruger, between its resistance and armor rep they recover HP faster than i hurt them. For ppl who do not know what im packing, im doing the maximum possible damage on a gunlogi for Uprising. A madruger can rep through this.
Almost the same can be said for a Falshion with proto missles and HAV lv3 vs the same madruger fit. Dispite missles being the weapon that is meant to defeat armor tanks, the well fit madruger wins every single time, a standard tank. Tho they cannot rep through the damage they do not go past half armor.
Additonally, my falshion with a compressed partical cannon, 2 damage mods and an active heat sink can not win a rail shoot out with a standard madruger, they are more manuverable, resist more damage, and dish out more damage. There is litterally nothing i can do to armor tanks at all, and my tank is maxed out entirely.
So, as stated, the promblem is armor tanks are better than sheild tanks in every conceivable way that a tank needs to be. Has more HP, reps longer for more HP, resist more damage, does more damage, has a longer range and is more manuverable/faster. theres well, nothing left for sheild tanks. Their garbage.
We need to buff the shield tank in a way that will still leave both tanks their own unique vehicals and they need to be even.
We can all agree that heavy armor is well, heavy and should slow you down. Shields are weightless and should not weigh anything. shields need to be faster. In eve, gallenete are second fastest and caldari are the slowest.... in space. Were weight and gravity dont matter. Now were on a planet and these things do matter, this only makes sence and helps balance the tanks. So make armor tanks slow again and shield tanks significantly faster.
With the natural resistances of a shield tank, making their hardeners on par with armor tanks would be unfair, they should not have a 15 sec cool down and 60 sec duration like the armor tanks do. however they do need to be improved, right now they are garbage. Say lasts for 30 seconds and 30 second cooldown. Straight up half as effective.
however, passive resist is supposed to be most effective on shield tanks but again, armor tanks can do it just as well. So make the shield passive resist resist for 5% more or remove the stacking penaltys. Ethire works.
The reps are sooooooooo unfair! the best armor rep repairs about 7500 HP total over the course of 15 seconds while the shield anks reps about 2500 HP in 5 seconds. very significant difference, the armor tank is 3 times more effective. Can we make the shield tanks rep at least half as competent? Seriously, being half as effective would be nice, no troll.
Tottal HP seems fair were its at noww. Its reasonable considering one regens and the other doesent. However, shield tanks natural rep is alittle too slow. instead of 23/hps it should be like 35 to make it feel like there are times were you dont have to use your rep. Right now the natural rep just dosent help
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Aizen Intiki
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
124
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
If they made it to where Passive Shield tanking was possible, I Wouldn't see the problem. That's the only problem I see. Most people's problem is that they think that They think in a fair fight, a equal leveled battle with 2 pilots, both are using blasters, and the Caldari should win is okay. It isn't. Stop thinking it should. Gallente blaster > Caldari Blaster always.
Peace, Aizen |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
868
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Are all you tankers talking about tank vs. tank, in a 1v1 situation?
I'd like the point of view of tankers who have (semi-)dedicated tank crews who stick with the tank with repair tools and AV weapons to add their voices to this.
A shield tank's slightly higher speed could close gaps between armour tanks allowing for the crew to pop out, lob AV nades and fire swarms, then hop back in to use the small turrets, before a shield hardener even runs out.
I've also tried using my dropship to keep an armour tank's shields up with a transporter, and it nullifies quite a bit of swarm damage (until they decide to take me out instead of the tank).
I really disagree that tanks should be balanced in pilot v. pilot situations, with no other people around. It's a team game, no? Mercenaries or not, the blues are fighting for the same contract that you are.
-Perspective of a logibro and dropship pilot. I've got an alt that has 3 mill SP into tanking, that's as far as I've gone down that road. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2553
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Passive shield tanking needs to become viable on vehicles. |
Exmaple Core
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
494
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Are all you tankers talking about tank vs. tank, in a 1v1 situation?
I'd like the point of view of tankers who have (semi-)dedicated tank crews who stick with the tank with repair tools and AV weapons to add their voices to this.
A shield tank's slightly higher speed could close gaps between armour tanks allowing for the crew to pop out, lob AV nades and fire swarms, then hop back in to use the small turrets, before a shield hardener even runs out.
I've also tried using my dropship to keep an armour tank's shields up with a transporter, and it nullifies quite a bit of swarm damage (until they decide to take me out instead of the tank).
I really disagree that tanks should be balanced in pilot v. pilot situations, with no other people around. It's a team game, no? Mercenaries or not, the blues are fighting for the same contract that you are.
-Perspective of a logibro and dropship pilot. I've got an alt that has 3 mill SP into tanking, that's as far as I've gone down that road.
Yes, one V one situations. tanks need to be balanced for 1v1 because that also effects times when ppl intervine. For Exmaple: What if the stronger tank recives help against the unbalanced, weaker tank? The stronger, OP tank wins. What happens when both tanks have help? the stronger, OP tank wins. What happens when the weaker, UP tank fights the stronger, OP tank? the OP tank still usally wins unless the UP tank gets a significant amount of help, wich will pull waaay too many ppl to deal with one tank. Kinda ruins everything. What happens when one tank is OP adn the other is UP? the OP tank wins 100% of the time and no one wants to play shield tanks. like what is happening now. |
Exmaple Core
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
494
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Passive shield tanking needs to become viable on vehicles.
I agree, and it should be done on shield tanks and not armor tanks. Vice versa for active tanking, like it is now |
Dr Allopathy
Raging Pack of Homos
114
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tanks do not need to be balanced 1v1.
If everything was balanced 1v1 (shield vs armor, different weapons etc) then there would be no need for tactics ingame. Point and shoot like everyone else.
Stop the QQ. You guys move way too fast anyway. It's only when you're not paying attention (which you shouldn't be doing) that you get blown up. |
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Exmaple Core
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
499
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dr Allopathy wrote:Tanks do not need to be balanced 1v1.
If everything was balanced 1v1 (shield vs armor, different weapons etc) then there would be no need for tactics ingame. Point and shoot like everyone else.
Stop the QQ. You guys move way too fast anyway. It's only when you're not paying attention (which you shouldn't be doing) that you get blown up.
lol who are you? get out of here you dont know what your talking about. The core mechanics need to be balanced, right now its not balanced for tanks and armor tanks always win. In battles it will never, ever be balanced because ppl do not have the same amount of skill points. If both tanks are balanced than it will fall to who is the better tanker (who has the most SP, best tactica and fit) as opposed to what it is now. Now its i have a 10 mill SP armor tank vs your 15.5 mill SP sheild tank so i win. That, takes no tactica, just poor game mechanics and balancing. Stop being stupid and stfu, pay attention |
Sev Alcatraz
Bullet Cluster
285
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
I quit tanking for this very reason, The Armour tanks can actively rep through anything you throw at them and stack Damage mods.
(before you say i know nothing about tranks Consider this, I have tanked through closed beta back when we had "point i win" railguns and carpet bombing missile turrets I have literally seen it all)
-shield tanks
High slots normally consist of Shield extenders and shield boosters (normally a heavy shield booster and a light shield booster to mop up the left over from the Heavy booster)
lows are PG boosters (local/diagnostic) in the days of the long gone Sagaris you could run a heat sink
Now, you fit a decent main gun you would need to run small missiles around it to save on PG even then the Shield tnak will be starving even with maxed out skills
-Armour tanks
High Slots -damage mods -CPU upgrades The surya was able to fit 2 high damage mods and a cpu upgrade
-lows layouts very but i have heard of people booster tanking but running 2 light reps and a few 180mm plates and being able to cycle the reps during battle without the worry of having their armour drop below 50 %
Pros and cons
Shield tanks are quick but easily outgunned
Armour tanks are "slower" but can stay in battle a lot longer and fill the role of the shield tank if fitted with the appropriate mods
Consider this, If you think that the forge gun and AV nades are hard on your 8k EHP armour tanks see what they do to a 5k EHP shield tank with 1 booster (that shield tank needs to fill all of it's highs with boosters to get it's HP that high and can only fit one booster)
The only balance i see here is current AV VS Armour tanks it is an entirely different animal against Shield tanks
Shield tanks need a PG buff and HP buff
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Cosgar
ParagonX
2568
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 02:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Exmaple Core wrote:Cosgar wrote:Passive shield tanking needs to become viable on vehicles. I agree, and it should be done on shield tanks and not armor tanks. Vice versa for active tanking, like it is now They could really take some stuff from infantry shield tanking and apply it to armor and it would be a major fix. Armor is in a good place, it's the shield tanks that need help. Un-nerfing vehicle PG and fixing the engineering skill bug would help with tank vs infantry as a whole. |
Cody Sietz
Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION
489
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Another way to truly fix vehicles is to make mods that only fit to certain vehicles.
Tanks would get there own set of mods, so would dropships and lavs.
Why? So CCP can adjust mods and cpu/pg usage accordingly.
No more fixing a module and trying to balance for one vehicle, therefore breaking it for another. |
Exmaple Core
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
499
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Exmaple Core wrote:Cosgar wrote:Passive shield tanking needs to become viable on vehicles. I agree, and it should be done on shield tanks and not armor tanks. Vice versa for active tanking, like it is now They could really take some stuff from infantry shield tanking and apply it to armor and it would be a major fix. Armor is in a good place, it's the shield tanks that need help. Un-nerfing vehicle PG and fixing the engineering skill bug would help with tank vs infantry as a whole.
this thread is about tanks vs tanks not tanks vs infaintry. PG bonuses would help both tanks and wouldent change anything. Would just make them better tanks overall, wich would be nice |
Exmaple Core
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
499
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Another way to truly fix vehicles is to make mods that only fit to certain vehicles.
Tanks would get there own set of mods, so would dropships and lavs.
Why? So CCP can adjust mods and cpu/pg usage accordingly.
No more fixing a module and trying to balance for one vehicle, therefore breaking it for another.
This is about shield tanks vs armor tanks, were not worried about fixing vehicals as a whole. thanks |
Nguruthos IX
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
864
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
random derpship post
Derpship
That is all |
Cody Sietz
Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION
489
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Exmaple Core wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Another way to truly fix vehicles is to make mods that only fit to certain vehicles.
Tanks would get there own set of mods, so would dropships and lavs.
Why? So CCP can adjust mods and cpu/pg usage accordingly.
No more fixing a module and trying to balance for one vehicle, therefore breaking it for another. This is about shield tanks vs armor tanks, were not worried about fixing vehicals as a whole. thanks fair enough. |
Exmaple Core
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
499
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Exmaple Core wrote:Shield tanks are disgustingly underpowered this build, the distance between these two tanks are too much to even consider going sheild tanks. for Exmaple, i have 15.5 million SP into sheild tanks and have literally everything maxed out that matters. With a scattered neutron blaster and 2 damage mods on my gunlogi i can not deal damage to a well fit madruger, between its resistance and armor rep they recover HP faster than i hurt them. For ppl who do not know what im packing, im doing the maximum possible damage on a gunlogi for Uprising. A madruger can rep through this.
Almost the same can be said for a Falshion with proto missles and HAV lv3 vs the same madruger fit. Dispite missles being the weapon that is meant to defeat armor tanks, the well fit madruger wins every single time, a standard tank. Tho they cannot rep through the damage they do not go past half armor.
Additonally, my falshion with a compressed partical cannon, 2 damage mods and an active heat sink can not win a rail shoot out with a standard madruger, they are more manuverable, resist more damage, and dish out more damage. There is litterally nothing i can do to armor tanks at all, and my tank is maxed out entirely.
So, as stated, the promblem is armor tanks are better than sheild tanks in every conceivable way that a tank needs to be. Has more HP, reps longer for more HP, resist more damage, does more damage, has a longer range and is more manuverable/faster. theres well, nothing left for sheild tanks. Their garbage.
We need to buff the shield tank in a way that will still leave both tanks their own unique vehicals and they need to be even.
We can all agree that heavy armor is well, heavy and should slow you down. Shields are weightless and should not weigh anything. shields need to be faster. In eve, gallenete are second fastest and caldari are the slowest.... in space. Were weight and gravity dont matter. Now were on a planet and these things do matter, this only makes sence and helps balance the tanks. So make armor tanks slow again and shield tanks significantly faster.
With the natural resistances of a shield tank, making their hardeners on par with armor tanks would be unfair, they should not have a 15 sec cool down and 60 sec duration like the armor tanks do. however they do need to be improved, right now they are garbage. Say lasts for 30 seconds and 30 second cooldown. Straight up half as effective.
however, passive resist is supposed to be most effective on shield tanks but again, armor tanks can do it just as well. So make the shield passive resist resist for 5% more or remove the stacking penaltys. Ethire works.
The reps are sooooooooo unfair! the best armor rep repairs about 7500 HP total over the course of 15 seconds while the shield anks reps about 2500 HP in 5 seconds. very significant difference, the armor tank is 3 times more effective. Can we make the shield tanks rep at least half as competent? Seriously, being half as effective would be nice, no troll.
Tottal HP seems fair were its at noww. Its reasonable considering one regens and the other doesent. However, shield tanks natural rep is alittle too slow. instead of 23/hps it should be like 35 to make it feel like there are times were you dont have to use your rep. Right now the natural rep just dosent help
whatchya guys think? |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
873
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Exmaple Core wrote: Yes, one V one situations. tanks need to be balanced for 1v1 because that also effects times when ppl intervine. For Exmaple: What if the stronger tank recives help against the unbalanced, weaker tank? The stronger, OP tank wins. What happens when both tanks have help? the stronger, OP tank wins. What happens when the weaker, UP tank fights the stronger, OP tank? the OP tank still usally wins unless the UP tank gets a significant amount of help, wich will pull waaay too many ppl to deal with one tank. Kinda ruins everything. What happens when one tank is OP adn the other is UP? the OP tank wins 100% of the time and no one wants to play shield tanks. like what is happening now.
If shield tanks were balanced against armour tanks, then how balanced would they be against infantry AV?
Lets assume AV isn't taken into account. Oh wait, there aren't just tankers in every single bloody game, and yes, there will be AV present.
I used to say the best tankers know the map, know the escape routes, know the flanking routes, and know how to get their tanks to those routes, and know their tank's limits.
Well, lets expand on that.
The best tankers know how to take advantage of the fact that THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES ON THE BATTLEFIELD.
Your team is there, and they want points too.
A shield blaster tank with 1 extra gunner who has 3 AV grenades can deal more damage than an armour tank with the same blaster and no gunners.
A shield blaster tank with 2 extra gunners with 6 AV grenades and 1 swarm launcher can deal MUCH more damage than an armour tank with the same blaster and 1 gunner with 3 AV nades.
An armour blaster tank with 2 extra gunners and 6 AV grenades can stomp a shield tank, ONLY if the shield tank lets the armour tank get close enough. And if the shield tank has a gunner who is willing to hop out, throw AV grenades and generally distract the armour tank as the shield tank uses his superior mobility to make haste for the hills, then the shield tank survives.
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