Are all you tankers talking about tank vs. tank, in a 1v1 situation?

I'd like the point of view of tankers who have (semi-)dedicated tank crews who stick with the tank with repair tools and AV weapons to add their voices to this.

A shield tank's slightly higher speed could close gaps between armour tanks allowing for the crew to pop out, lob AV nades and fire swarms, then hop back in to use the small turrets, before a shield hardener even runs out.

I've also tried using my dropship to keep an armour tank's shields up with a transporter, and it nullifies quite a bit of swarm damage (until they decide to take me out instead of the tank).

I really disagree that tanks should be balanced in pilot v. pilot situations, with no other people around. It's a team game, no? Mercenaries or not, the blues are fighting for the same contract that you are.

-Perspective of a logibro and dropship pilot. I've got an alt that has 3 mill SP into tanking, that's as far as I've gone down that road.

Passive shield tanking needs to become viable on vehicles.

Tanks do not need to be balanced 1v1.

If everything was balanced 1v1 (shield vs armor, different weapons etc) then there would be no need for tactics ingame. Point and shoot like everyone else.


Stop the QQ. You guys move way too fast anyway. It's only when you're not paying attention (which you shouldn't be doing) that you get blown up.

They could really take some stuff from infantry shield tanking and apply it to armor and it would be a major fix. Armor is in a good place, it's the shield tanks that need help. Un-nerfing vehicle PG and fixing the engineering skill bug would help with tank vs infantry as a whole.

Another way to truly fix vehicles is to make mods that only fit to certain vehicles.

Tanks would get there own set of mods, so would dropships and lavs.

Why? So CCP can adjust mods and cpu/pg usage accordingly.

No more fixing a module and trying to balance for one vehicle, therefore breaking it for another.

Shield tanks are disgustingly underpowered this build, the distance between these two tanks are too much to even consider going sheild tanks. for Exmaple, i have 15.5 million SP into sheild tanks and have literally everything maxed out that matters. With a scattered neutron blaster and 2 damage mods on my gunlogi i can not deal damage to a well fit madruger, between its resistance and armor rep they recover HP faster than i hurt them. For ppl who do not know what im packing, im doing the maximum possible damage on a gunlogi for Uprising. A madruger can rep through this.

Almost the same can be said for a Falshion with proto missles and HAV lv3 vs the same madruger fit. Dispite missles being the weapon that is meant to defeat armor tanks, the well fit madruger wins every single time, a standard tank. Tho they cannot rep through the damage they do not go past half armor.

Additonally, my falshion with a compressed partical cannon, 2 damage mods and an active heat sink can not win a rail shoot out with a standard madruger, they are more manuverable, resist more damage, and dish out more damage. There is litterally nothing i can do to armor tanks at all, and my tank is maxed out entirely.


So, as stated, the promblem is armor tanks are better than sheild tanks in every conceivable way that a tank needs to be. Has more HP, reps longer for more HP, resist more damage, does more damage, has a longer range and is more manuverable/faster. theres well, nothing left for sheild tanks. Their garbage.

We need to buff the shield tank in a way that will still leave both tanks their own unique vehicals and they need to be even.

We can all agree that heavy armor is well, heavy and should slow you down. Shields are weightless and should not weigh anything. shields need to be faster. In eve, gallenete are second fastest and caldari are the slowest.... in space. Were weight and gravity dont matter. Now were on a planet and these things do matter, this only makes sence and helps balance the tanks. So make armor tanks slow again and shield tanks significantly faster.


With the natural resistances of a shield tank, making their hardeners on par with armor tanks would be unfair, they should not have a 15 sec cool down and 60 sec duration like the armor tanks do. however they do need to be improved, right now they are garbage. Say lasts for 30 seconds and 30 second cooldown. Straight up half as effective.


however, passive resist is supposed to be most effective on shield tanks but again, armor tanks can do it just as well. So make the shield passive resist resist for 5% more or remove the stacking penaltys. Ethire works.


The reps are sooooooooo unfair! the best armor rep repairs about 7500 HP total over the course of 15 seconds while the shield anks reps about 2500 HP in 5 seconds. very significant difference, the armor tank is 3 times more effective. Can we make the shield tanks rep at least half as competent? Seriously, being half as effective would be nice, no troll.


Tottal HP seems fair were its at noww. Its reasonable considering one regens and the other doesent. However, shield tanks natural rep is alittle too slow. instead of 23/hps it should be like 35 to make it feel like there are times were you dont have to use your rep. Right now the natural rep just dosent help

If shield tanks were balanced against armour tanks, then how balanced would they be against infantry AV?

Lets assume AV isn't taken into account. Oh wait, there aren't just tankers in every single bloody game, and yes, there will be AV present.

I used to say the best tankers know the map, know the escape routes, know the flanking routes, and know how to get their tanks to those routes, and know their tank's limits.

Well, lets expand on that.

The best tankers know how to take advantage of the fact that THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

Your team is there, and they want points too.

A shield blaster tank with 1 extra gunner who has 3 AV grenades can deal more damage than an armour tank with the same blaster and no gunners.

A shield blaster tank with 2 extra gunners with 6 AV grenades and 1 swarm launcher can deal MUCH more damage than an armour tank with the same blaster and 1 gunner with 3 AV nades.

An armour blaster tank with 2 extra gunners and 6 AV grenades can stomp a shield tank, ONLY if the shield tank lets the armour tank get close enough. And if the shield tank has a gunner who is willing to hop out, throw AV grenades and generally distract the armour tank as the shield tank uses his superior mobility to make haste for the hills, then the shield tank survives.

You forget that although weight is eliminated in space, mass is preserved, and inertia and acceleration are derived from mass. Remember the formula f=ma (net force= mass x acceleration, or acceleration = net force/mass)? That applies everywhere.

Sorry, just edited post. I think caldari needs to be buffed but not in the area of speed (passive regen and long range weaponry maybe). I think minmatar will fill that role instead.

if both tanks have proto AV crews both will die, 1 rail slug and 2 volleys of protoswarm = any tank dead... well maybe some will come out of that on fire.

I will come out of that without a lick of flame.

My shields EHP are about 9000, and your swarms are going to do -20% anyways to me due to being explosive.

Yes but no tanker here has specifically spoken about their experiences with a tank crew. Which tank comes out victorious when the majority of AV deals more damage to armour, and both tanks have a 3-man crew?

Have there been any tests into this? Here's another hypothetical situation. If we don't check out 3v3 shield vs. armour scenarios, and in actual fact shields survive for longer, and we balance shields and armour for 1v1, then suddenly shields are OP.

Now you're talking, though better yet a pair of forge-gunners since forge-guns do ridiculous damage at the higher tiers anyways, even with the -10% against shields a proto-forge will leave a whopping dent and they kill Madrugars just fine.

Voice of someone who's had a fully-crewed shield tank vs. fully-crewed armour tank fight.

To be more precise, all-Missile Gunnlogi (so perfect for anti-Armour) against a Blaster Madrugar with Small Missile Turrets (so not as perfectly anti-Shield), the Madrugar had taken some shield damage AND the Gunnlogi showed up behind the Madrugar after setting up an ambush.

Once it started taking fire, the Madrugar stopped moving, turned around, and just sat there firing at the Gunnlogi. The Gunnlogi, on the other hand, kept moving, trying to reduce the damage it was taking.

With a mobile target, there were occasional misses, or near-misses with splash damage from the Madrugar's Small Turrets, and even some of the Blaster fire was missing its mark. By contrast, the Gunnlogi landed almost every shot fired on the immobile Madrugar.

By the end of the fight, in spite of all the advantages it had, the Gunnlogi was on fire.

I'm sorry, but when you have a tank that's designed to be competent against any threat, and it goes up against a tank that's specifically designed for taking out that particular enemy, and the specialised tank has not only its preferred target but also an ambush going in its favour, AND a better driver, the fight should definitely NOT be close.

NOTE: Other than a few hits to the Madrugar's shields prior to the tank vs. tank encounter (which ended with infantry being wiped out by the Madrugar), there was no direct involvement from AV infantry.

Just throwing it out there that all gunnlogis have 2 pg extenders in their lows.

But i agree armor needs a small buff and shields need a huge buff. They should each fill a niche role and be able to compete.

Possibly a significant increase in the CPU required and a significant decrease in the PG needed for railguns would discourage running a railgun on a madrugar, but not completely remove the possibility of it. Meaning it would be even more convenient to use railguns on a caldari tank than it would be for a gallente tank if they were to make this change, causing caldari to rule long range (it would be able to equip a good railgun turret and damage mods due to its large CPU pool, while retaining tankiness).

Also I think these changes should be made at a factor of 1.25x or 1.5x.

Honestly though, running damage mods on a 'Loggi or a Falchion is pretty much suicide if you don't have someone running shield transporters.

I think the only other way you can run a damage mod tank is if you are the anchor and you have another tank operating as a sweeper.

Even then if the other team can get a good fix on you, you will get dropped. A tank with damage mods is not surviving an OB, or a forge gunner prepared to die in the redline to take it out.

I am not really sure how we can go about getting a sort of balance between the two, but I think the first step is to remove the movement penalty from the Falchion entirely. Having it be that slow makes it completely useless as an "enforcer".

The Gunloggi needs a speed bump as well, and both could use a bump in shield regen.

None of that is going to really help it in combat vs a Madrugar though, and that is where the problem lies.

Just saying Shield tanks are for anti-infantry work and armor tanks are for AT doesn't seem like a good solution.

It would be great if the vehicle devs were not so MIA so we could get a better understanding of what they intend the vehicles to be.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=925183#post925183

Somewhere in ther

i love my gunlogi and tbh im glad i specced into it still

but yeah, being against a madruger is pretty much game over for me, unless i pull back and try to snipe it with rail, but i prefer to run mssiles

id be content if gunlogi went a little faster as i'll be popping missiles at maddy not missing yet he will tank that **** and drive straight up to me then blast me to bits or \ also , maybe the missile turrets could fire a little faster than the 2.5 delay they have

Actually, I very much enjoy tanking in this build. I enjoy the challenge of fighting off AV that I know can destroy me very quickly if I make a mistake. It can be very difficult, and there are times where everything goes wrong in a match, but generally I am having lots of fun tanking.

I do agree that active resists on shield tanks are completely worthless. Before 1.2, any time I saw a shield tank activate hardeners, I knew they were dead.

As for changes to hardeners, giving shield tankers a 30 active 30 cooldown doesn't seem out of balance to me, as it still allows armor tanks to have the staying power that we think the devs want them to have.

However, does it really make a difference in a tank 1 v 1? Look at the match we had the other day. Would having better resists got you out of there? Sort of a split. The first Loggi you lost would have gotten away to cover if you had better resists, and the first Falchion might have made it back into the deployment. The second one would have been popped anyway, because I was able to close you down enough that you couldn't run away. The next Gunloggi would have gone down anyway because you got between two tanks, and the last gunloggi was going to die because I knew you were coming and had all my modules ready for you.

So out of those 5 tanks, resists would have kept one alive, might have kept a second alive, and would have made that last fight closer.

Now, I have to ask, were you running damage mods on those blaster gunnloggis at the end? If so, maybe running the PG extenders to get some more HP would be a better solution?

That raises the different issue of why have damage mods if no one can run them without getting popped, but I am just trying to figure out if there is some area where there is a viability for shield tanking that we may have missed.

Because as it stands, I am in agreement with you that shield tanks need love, but I don't know if just bumping the resists would be enough.

I'm thinking crazy here, but how much more PG would a shield tank need from base to be be able to run an extender and a booster with one damage mod? That could open up a whole new can of worms, but I can't really think of a good way of levelling the field without doing some drastic stuff.

I just noticed this, you don't shield tank, do you?

The best Shield Booster is the Heavy Clarity Shield Booster, which gives 314 every five seconds for five pulses, so that is 1570 shields total in a time span much longer then five seconds, even counting passives which is roughly an extra hundred shields every four seconds, it is no where near your figure.

Buffing missiles makes sense, as having a turret that is there to counter the biggest threat to a shield tank makes sense.

Having little experience with missiles, is there a specific turret that could be buffed to make it more lethal to tanks without making life to hard on the AR toting masses?

Also, being able to drive without looking is a skill that most tank drivers should really work on. There are times and places on certain maps where being able to reliably fire while retreating is a proper tactic, and critical to your survival.

Although I have lost more than a couple of tanks to using that tactic carelessly. That and the whole turning the barrel while going through a narrow gap causing your tank to have a seizure perpendicular to the ground.

half as effective? the top shield hardeners are 30% resists. the top shield resistance amplifier is 15%. whats the point of shield hardeners if you you make them half as effective lol? the amps will be better as the dont have cool down lmao

armor tanking is supposed to be more effective using passive resist mods. except ccp made them crap. they should be higher like in eve.

shield tanking can be done either passive or actively. with shield hardeners being better than shield amps. again though, ccp doesnt follow its own **** lol

Iron Wolf.. Learn to read, that is a Dropsuit thread, my complaint is Vehicles, as usual.

[quote=gbh08]


Heavy clarity ward ST lvl 3

48 cpu
532 pg
393 hp\s
/quote]

Yeah, those are not good enough. If the shield transporter can't even keep up with a heavy efficient then spider tanking goes to the armor tankers as well.

That makes almost no sense.

This is where we really need Blam to come and tell us what the dev team was thinking when they made these setups.

Thanks for the info BTW, much appreciated.

I wouldn't say I wrecked you, I just knew that you would be running a shield tank, and brought out my rail. I assumed correctly that you would run a blaster out of the gate, and was able to close you down early enough. The Falchion is ridiculously UP right now, just slightly better than the vayu. So those were not your fault. That second Gunloggi almost had me, if not for my squad having an OB you would have got me I think, and the last one, as said before was just me having me all my modules ready and a good idea of how you were going to try and flank me.

The other thing to consider is that although you have all your SP into shield tanks, I put all mine into armor tanks. When Uprising first dropped I had dabbled a bit in to some shield skills, but when I got my respec I went full armor, maxing all the skills.

The difference in reps is staggering. I don't think they should be equal, but there is no reason why a shield booster can not even top you up half way while my efficient heavy rep can repair to full a 180 poly plate as long as I am not too deep into armor burn.

So I think we as tankers can all agree the shield tanks need a buff to their hardeners to make active resists even an option for shield tankers. At the very lest they need to last half as long as the armor hardeners, with an equal cooldown.

The next question is how much should the booster actual repair, because right now, the passive regen is not enough even with reps for a shield tank to even hope to survive from a madrugar with an active heat sink(which is every rail tank).

Right now shield tanks have worse speed, worse reps, worse hardeners, lower eHP, and the only plus the have is the resistances to AV.

So other than saying shield tanks should fight other tanks (which is stupid), what is the plan from CCP for shield tanks?

Actually, how are the shield transporters? Is there some hidden gem in there that would make a pair or triumvirate of Gunloggis viable? haven't really looked at them and not near my PS3 right now so I can't look it up.

Heyo whats this, not another bloody shield v. armour thread? jesus. Ok look, shields are slighty UP but not as badly as you all seem to think, hardeners are more effective (top gives 30% compared to armor 25%) you can stack damage mods, less AV is hurting to you and heres the kicker, theres passive regen, not something you find on armor. I have specced into both and honestly unless you attempt to use a shield tank as an armor tank, which will blow you the **** up, generally you're fine

The best part is the reward from the Mordus event coming up. Complete ALL the challenges and win...100 SHIELD TANKS!

>_<

A prize no one could sell...if those features even existed yet.

"BALANCE" is FIELDING THE COUNTER of the Gallente Armor Tank!!!! EXPLOSIVES and SQUADMATES WITH EXPLOSIVES.

If he is a GALLENTE BLASTER, Bring your Caldari with MISSILES and some RESISTANCE. At range v. Rail, take cover and bring out HUGE SHIELD tank and CALL in NEW one with fresh shields every time for constant health.

CCP can't and SHOULDN'T patch it because people are lazy or don't understand ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS.

An ADV, or PRO Missile Turret WILL beat the **** out of an armor tanker at optimum range. THis is coming from an experienced Gallente Tank operator who knows how to build them well.