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D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
254
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 21:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.
i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor. i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.
A. problems with the HMG: extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy
solution: damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too. A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:
1. range 2. dispersion 3. reload speed 4. over heating 5. recoil
external balancing factors are:
1. all suits increased movement speed, 2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)
B. problems with heavy suit:
the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.
solution: 1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race. 2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.
this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
1583
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 21:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. |
Cat Merc
Oculus Felis
1557
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 21:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
254
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 21:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
^^im afraid i can't take you seriously when you run caldari logistis with duvoule. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
254
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way.
are you serious? ya know what ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. i want you to do me a favor. put 50,000 SP (you can get that in 2 days or so, playing casually, of 5 games playing seriously). put that into HMGs. just get a STD one.
now put that on a militia suit, fit it out how you like. and use it. use it for 3 days, and then tell me what you think. please.
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nukel head
Knights of No Republic
31
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
I didn't read the whole post honestly, but I stopped reading when you were basically saying that your lower level and non armored heavy suit lost to a proto assault. Why wouldn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if it got completely owned by a proto scout with nova knives either. I am starting to understand that the mindset a lot of heavies have is that they should be almost invincible to anything else on the battlefield. That is simply not the case. They are definitely tougher and comparing level for level with other suits are superior in that respect. If I run assault and go head to head with a heavy that is properly fitted and knows what he is doing, I almost never win. On the other hand, if I catch him out in the open or in a position where I can outmaneuver him then the odds go the other way. How is that not balanced? |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
1585
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way. are you serious? ya know what ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. i want you to do me a favor. put 50,000 SP (you can get that in 2 days or so, playing casually, of 5 games playing seriously). put that into HMGs. just get a STD one. now put that on a militia suit, fit it out how you like. and use it. use it for 3 days, and then tell me what you think. please.
Allow me to grace you with a logical answer.
You are suggesting over a 50% damage buff to the HMG. Right now, the HMG has significantly higher damage output than an AR, balanced by the dispersion. The range was previously a problem, but this has been much improved by the range fix in Uprising 1.2. The length of this post shows that you didn't consider the effect of 1.2 - it's too long and it was posted too shortly after the patch to have been the product of careful, up to date testing.
If you buffed the damage of the HMG by 50-80%, it would completely decimate literally everything in a second, including other heavies. Recoil does not balance this - recoil on the HMG is hardly a concern. Overheating does not balance this - you are an awful player if you overheat your HMG. Reload speed does not balance this - you have a gigantic clip size. Range does not balance this - This has been improved significantly with 1.2. Dispersion is the only thing that might come close to preventing that from being completely overpowered - except, of course, the damage output is so high that you reach AR level dps at that range even if the target is only slightly in the reticule.
The HMG may need some tweaking, but nothing nearly that drastic. Your numbers are horribly biased and taken from outliers from the other classes whilst comparing it against the weakest examples of your own class.
In addition to this insane HMG buff, you suggest making heavies much more durable. I agree with the turn speed issue, but your suggestions drastically increase the survivability of heavies. ~40% resistance to small arms fire is a huge bonus - and you're suggesting adding more slots on top of that.
Consider this: If your proposed 'fixes' went through, why would anyone use anything other than a heavy? |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
254
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
1. the HMG did get better range, but so did the ARs*. 2. people are moving even faster, effectivley making hitting anything with an HMG impossible. you have a greater chance of winning the lottery and becoming president than going positive with an HMG and heavy suit. 3. damage is still **** poor, but now its **** poor at longer range 4. ISK transfers make it so that more people are running around in PROTO gear. (yes im seeing alot more of those. 5. energizing plates make shields recover at 60% speed, effectively making the HMG worthless 6. shields recover while still taking damage 7. Caldari suits can still out tank a suit with ehp. (fought a caldri logi today who out gunnined me with a duvoule and had 588 shield 417 armor. (fout an advanced with 714 ehp....holy $#!T) 8. reactive plates are **** poor, and pretty much only help shield tankers (they have small enough HP to benefit from this.) 9. heavy suits still have no slots, turn speed is still **** poor, ehp low, no resistance to damage.
in short there is still no ******* point to being heavy. the commando suit looks cool but is a ******* joke, because it costs more than other suits of the same level and gets almost no slots. the ehp is pretty pathetic considering it can't really be increased.
....so we are assed out.
but the good news is i get a cool sound when i get headshots.
*CCP did this before by giving the HMG a little boost in damage and thin increasing everything else effectively making things exactly the same. if i have a scale that is unbalanced and i add two equal weights to each side it stays unbalanced... :( |
Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1045
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.
i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor. i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.
A. problems with the HMG: extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy
solution: damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too. A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:
1. range 2. dispersion 3. reload speed 4. over heating 5. recoil
external balancing factors are:
1. all suits increased movement speed, 2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)
B. problems with heavy suit:
the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.
solution: 1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race. 2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.
this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.
Thank you for making a suggestion. That said, I think HMG are designed as a defensive tool not offensive. They are designed for close contact at objectives.
Did you get a chance to try the Commando suit, which is a Heavy designed for mobility and mid range engagements? If so what are the results? |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
254
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
nukel head wrote:I didn't read the whole post honestly, but I stopped reading when you were basically saying that your lower level and non armored heavy suit lost to a proto assault. Why wouldn't it?
i'll stop reading here. what is the difference between a proto heavy and a std?
let me answer that for you. adv basic you get 2 high and 2 low slots. what can you do with that? now compare those possibilities to a meduim frame of the same lvl. the proto gives you 2 high and 3 low. that is a joke. you can't reach anywhere near the ehp of other suits. and even the suits with lower ehp, can recharge everything twice as fast, and can move without penalty.
remember heavy suits can't shield tank because the sheilds recharge way to slow and they can't disengage targets, nor can we bunny hop infinitely. on top of that we need those slots for complex damage mods because the HMG does so little damage. armor tanking makes us so slow that we can't even move. logi's cant even rep us fast enough because enemies do so much damage and can easily out flank you.
heavies have plenty of balancing factors. of which i aforementioned so i suggest you start reading that OP.
please tell me what disadvantages do caldari logs with duvoules have? what disavatanges do the assaults have? what about the minmintar variants? what are their disadvantages?
can you even think of any? please post of you can.
(im only using basic because the sentinel is laughable at best).
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Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
nukel head wrote:I didn't read the whole post honestly, but I stopped reading when you were basically saying that your lower level and non armored heavy suit lost to a proto assault. Why wouldn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if it got completely owned by a proto scout with nova knives either. I am starting to understand that the mindset a lot of heavies have is that they should be almost invincible to anything else on the battlefield. That is simply not the case. They are definitely tougher and comparing level for level with other suits are superior in that respect. If I run assault and go head to head with a heavy that is properly fitted and knows what he is doing, I almost never win. On the other hand, if I catch him out in the open or in a position where I can outmaneuver him then the odds go the other way. How is that not balanced? The Underlined words say everything that you know about how it should be.
It is as to saying that a knight in chainmail armor and a Mace can, and should most likely be, better then a Knight in full Plate Armor , with a Horse and a hand and a half.
Making the HMG more Accurate, or making accuracy get better overtime faster would solve the problem.
Its the Fact that 75%+ Shots are just Flying into the Dust as you try to kill a Proto AR user, while he Spews Laser Precise Accurate rounds.
And when I say Laser accurate, I mean that it is basically Point and Spam R1. The Bullets Line up so neatly that, unless you when Frame by frame, the Path the Bullets Follow look like basically one line |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
1586
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Consider this: If your proposed 'fixes' went through, why would anyone use anything other than a heavy?
I would be interested to hear your thoughts. |
nukel head
Knights of No Republic
32
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way. are you serious? ya know what ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. i want you to do me a favor. put 50,000 SP (you can get that in 2 days or so, playing casually, of 5 games playing seriously). put that into HMGs. just get a STD one. now put that on a militia suit, fit it out how you like. and use it. use it for 3 days, and then tell me what you think. please.
Interesting. If the HMG is so terrible and the AR so epic...why don't you just use the AR? Last time I checked it would fit into that big muscley heavy weapon slot just fine. Would only take a day or two worth casual play to skill into those as well. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
254
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:D legendary hero wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way. are you serious? ya know what ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. i want you to do me a favor. put 50,000 SP (you can get that in 2 days or so, playing casually, of 5 games playing seriously). put that into HMGs. just get a STD one. now put that on a militia suit, fit it out how you like. and use it. use it for 3 days, and then tell me what you think. please. Allow me to grace you with a logical answer. You are suggesting over a 50% damage buff to the HMG. Right now, the HMG has significantly higher damage output than an AR, balanced by the dispersion. The range was previously a problem, but this has been much improved by the range fix in Uprising 1.2. The length of this post shows that you didn't consider the effect of 1.2 - it's too long and it was posted too shortly after the patch to have been the product of careful, up to date testing. If you buffed the damage of the HMG by 50-80%, it would completely decimate literally everything in a second, including other heavies. Recoil does not balance this - recoil on the HMG is hardly a concern. Overheating does not balance this - you are an awful player if you overheat your HMG. Reload speed does not balance this - you have a gigantic clip size. Range does not balance this - This has been improved significantly with 1.2. Dispersion is the only thing that might come close to preventing that from being completely overpowered - except, of course, the damage output is so high that you reach AR level dps at that range even if the target is only slightly in the reticule. The HMG may need some tweaking, but nothing nearly that drastic. Your numbers are horribly biased and taken from outliers from the other classes whilst comparing it against the weakest examples of your own class. In addition to this insane HMG buff, you suggest making heavies much more durable. I agree with the turn speed issue, but your suggestions drastically increase the survivability of heavies. ~40% resistance to small arms fire is a huge bonus - and you're suggesting adding more slots on top of that. Consider this: If your proposed 'fixes' went through, why would anyone use anything other than a heavy?
1. over heating is a serious issue when you need over 400+ rounds to break through 500 hp of bunny hopping, and highly evasive shields. 2. 8 second reload is a balancing factor. a militia AR without damage mods, the blank 10% or 15% from proficiency does 425 dps thats 850 damage in 2 seconds. to put that in better terms in 27 bullets 945 damage is done. that is the militia variant. mind you, you can not run away or take evasive maneuvers. you better have a decent secondary and even with the faster switch you stll disadvantaged verse an AR. 3. range. Ars got the buff too... so although it is better (which is why i haven't sighted it as a problem) its a mute point. 4. turn speed again is a huge problem.
it all boils down to the damage. even if it did the same damage to shield as it does to armor id be happy. but an increase in damage per shot is necessary, when ARs do comparable damage at a longer range, with a fast reload, higher accuracy, they never over heat, are dirt cheap, require almost no SP to start using, and can be used to do almost anything in the game.
considering that with a logistics suit but especial caldari you can get ehp equal to or greater than a heavy and there is no penalty for it.
in light of this why wouldn't everyone just us an AR and a logistics suit? oh... wait... they are.
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D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
254
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
nukel head wrote:D legendary hero wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way. are you serious? ya know what ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. i want you to do me a favor. put 50,000 SP (you can get that in 2 days or so, playing casually, of 5 games playing seriously). put that into HMGs. just get a STD one. now put that on a militia suit, fit it out how you like. and use it. use it for 3 days, and then tell me what you think. please. Interesting. If the HMG is so terrible and the AR so epic...why don't you just use the AR? Last time I checked it would fit into that big muscley heavy weapon slot just fine. Would only take a day or two worth casual play to skill into those as well.
ARs and heavy suits are ok. but i specc'd into them and it only proves my point. infact your post here only proves my point. if the only way to compete is to do what everyone else does, then its OP, or every thing is UP. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
254
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Quote:
Thank you for making a suggestion. That said, I think HMG are designed as a defensive tool not offensive. They are designed for close contact at objectives.
Did you get a chance to try the Commando suit, which is a Heavy designed for mobility and mid range engagements? If so what are the results?
i didn't specc into it. a freind of mine did. he put a plasma cannon on it and a shotgun. but, you didnt really use it he just ran around in his tank and got orbitals all by himself that was amazing. back to the point...
we were looking at the state=s and the cost of the suit combined with the lack of slots disintrested me right away. the different combination of light weapons is nice, but only for people who specced into light weapons. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
1587
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote: 1. over heating is a serious issue when you need over 400+ rounds to break through 500 hp of bunny hopping, and highly evasive shields. 2. 8 second reload is a balancing factor. a militia AR without damage mods, the blank 10% or 15% from proficiency does 425 dps thats 850 damage in 2 seconds. to put that in better terms in 27 bullets 945 damage is done. that is the militia variant. mind you, you can not run away or take evasive maneuvers. you better have a decent secondary and even with the faster switch you stll disadvantaged verse an AR. 3. range. Ars got the buff too... so although it is better (which is why i haven't sighted it as a problem) its a mute point. 4. turn speed again is a huge problem.
it all boils down to the damage. even if it did the same damage to shield as it does to armor id be happy. but an increase in damage per shot is necessary, when ARs do comparable damage at a longer range, with a fast reload, higher accuracy, they never over heat, are dirt cheap, require almost no SP to start using, and can be used to do almost anything in the game.
considering that with a logistics suit but especial caldari you can get ehp equal to or greater than a heavy and there is no penalty for it.
in light of this why wouldn't everyone just us an AR and a logistics suit? oh... wait... they are.
If you are taking 400 rounds to do 500 damage it's not the gun that's the problem, it's you. The reload time isn't a factor because you have a large enough clip to mitigate that. Yes, assault rifles got a range buff as well, but you still got -some more range-. The fact that other weapons got more range as well doesn't change the map layout.
Turn speed I agree is a problem. That's a poor mechanic and it's frankly stupid.
I don't think you realise the effect that rate of fire has on your damage output - damage per shot is not the only factor. You currently do significantly more damage than an AR.
The caldari logistics is a clear anomaly in the balance. You can't balance assuming there are anomalies.
I would very much like to see you answer my question, as well. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
255
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 23:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
^^seriously, have you tried hitting people with this wacky aimming system using an HMG. on top of that i have to put my sensitivety up to 10 to get any turn on this thing, and the fact that movement speed was increased makes hitting people near impossible.
remember that 500 shield is resistant to bullet projectiles, and stile recover shwile being shot at. yes, if i shot the shield tankers shield the recharge timer starts after the first round hits, by bunny hoping and two step strafing, considering that they recharge 25 hp per second, and i do only 18 damage per shot, they can effectiely heal back at a rate higher than i am damaging.
people look at the paper numbers "oh proto hmg does 660 dps.. herp derp", but when all the factors are lined up its pitiful.
a GEK AR with just the blanket 10% does 490.9 dps. that only requires 170,000 SP. in less than 3days you can get a weapon that damage coparable to an HMG. in 2 seconds you've done 982 damage. so you heavy survies 1 second longer than your average troop if neither move. but because other units are more mobile, the heavy suit actually dies faster.
if the ehp where raised too high the heavy suit would be OP. but the damage increase and resistance i proposed are the only ways (without nerfing everything else) to make the heavy a usible suit. |
KOBLAKA1
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
180
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 05:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
So having a good chunk of the day today, HMG does get outperformed at range, and its still pretty shite unless they are only a few feet from you. However, it doesn't need AR damage per bullet. It should follow the SMG path of per shot progression of damage. "but you have an assault hmg thats what thats for if you want range"... it does less damage the Assault SMG does more damage... Why should it follow SMG damage progression? because its a Minmatar weapon. It makes zero sense that a smaller weapon would do more damage than a bigger one (Sub vs Heavy MG). Now if we got this damage increase we wouldn't need a range increase falloff would do its job and at range we would do less damage. (to be perfectly fair its an HMG go goolgle them by all rights they should outperform most guns just be bulky and have crappy accuracy because of that bulk since they are uually attached to bases/vehicles [of course if we had more AI weapons maybe a gun that doesnt spool up to obtain accuracy would do more damage but thats on CCP not us])
As for the heavy suit itself if hmg dmg went up a lot of bitvhing about the heavy suit would disappear. The problem for why we feel so weak is long we have to shoot someone to kill them. While we are shooting our gun we slow down,and the moment we spool it down we loose accuracy. Conversely if we had more suvivability we wouldnt feel a need for HMG buffs.
Finally the commando, the commando is not made for brawls whatsoever. When trying to fight front line style it gets owned. It just nor fast enough and has no way to boost ehp significantly (2 his and 1 low at PROTO) so its again an issue of we have to pick damage or tank. Whereas other suits can fit 1 or 2 damage mods plus a tank. "wah wah it has higher ehp" garbage its still the second to last slowest suit, same turn speed, same hitbox. So an increase to tank would help it (ie damage resistance rather than 2% module efficiency when it only gets 3 modules...[a whole other can of worms]) The commando accels in a LAV or camping. I went 9/2 13/2 7/4 and 11/3 while cruising in an LAV and jumpin out to kill loners or swarm other LAVs/vehicles. |
Bears Beets
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
447
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 06:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
OP I can tell you're very hardheaded and set in your ways. I don't want to insult you, but as a Heavy I can safely say that most of your argument has very little to do with Heavies as a whole and more to do with the fact that every so often you can't compete with people who have put in the time and money to get twice as much SP as you.
I would suggest skilling up Armor Upgrades and Shield Upgrades. That'll get your base shields and armor to 506 each. That alone will boost your performance quite a bit. Try out Damage Modifiers. Try different loadouts and tactics.
I feel where you're coming from, but your arguments are only backed by your personal experience and your suggestions are a bit drastic. |
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Dj grammer
Red Star Jr.
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 06:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:^^I'm afraid i can't take you seriously when you run Caldari (bunny hopping) logistics with duvoulles. to add to what D legendary said
I cannot take any Caldari Logistics Dropsuit seriously since people run around in them like an assault suit instead of what they are intended for or that they recharge their shields faster than anyone. I will admit I am an AR user but MAJORITY OF THE DUST PLAYERS USE AR's. Why? It is the only gun that can tear though shields and armor evenly and easily. This game is a joke at this point (having 7.4 million SP, 3.23 KDR, 774,397 WP and still get my ass handed to by people proto stumping in public matches). I heavily look down upon people Prototype stumping in public matches (mostly Caldari Logistics or anything for that matter) with little no effort put into the game (please do not suggest way of stopping this because everyone said the same old story and dance). I already foreseen the future for this game. BF4 and COD are just going to take over in November leaving Dust behind with the dust of failure. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
257
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
KOBLAKA1 wrote:So having played a good chunk of the day today, HMG does get outperformed at range, and its still pretty shite unless they are only a few feet from you. However, it doesn't need AR damage per bullet. It should follow the SMG path of per shot progression of damage. "but you have an assault hmg thats what thats for if you want range"... it does less damage the Assault SMG does more damage... Why should it follow SMG damage progression? because they are both a Minmatar weapon. It makes zero sense that a smaller weapon would do more damage than a bigger one (Sub vs Heavy MG). At minimum they should be using the same bullet, if not a bigger one for the HMG. Bigger = more damage its physics and it applies cuz these are ballistic weapons. Now if we got this damage increase we wouldn't need a range increase falloff would do its job and at range we would do less damage. (to be perfectly fair its an HMG go goolgle them by all rights they should outperform most guns just be bulky and have crappy accuracy because of that bulk since they are uually attached to bases/vehicles [of course if we had more AI weapons maybe a gun that doesnt spool up to obtain accuracy would do more damage but thats on CCP not us])
As for the heavy suit itself if hmg dmg went up a lot of bitvhing about the heavy suit would disappear. The problem for why we feel so weak is long we have to shoot someone to kill them. While we are shooting our gun we slow down,and the moment we spool it down we loose accuracy. Conversely if we had more suvivability we wouldnt feel a need for HMG buffs.
Finally the commando, the commando is not made for brawls whatsoever. When trying to fight front line style it gets owned. It just nor fast enough and has no way to boost ehp significantly (2 his and 1 low at PROTO) so its again an issue of we have to pick damage or tank. Whereas other suits can fit 1 or 2 damage mods plus a tank. "wah wah it has higher ehp" garbage its still the second to last slowest suit, same turn speed, same hitbox. So an increase to tank would help it (ie damage resistance rather than 2% module efficiency when it only gets 3 modules...[a whole other can of worms]) The commando accels in a LAV or camping. I went 9/2 13/2 7/4 and 11/3 while cruising in an LAV and jumpin out to kill loners or swarm other LAVs/vehicles.
Edit: meant to add a caveat for the google comment, I'm not trying to compare it to modern day weapons, Im simply using english to define something (well technically 2). If its not an HMG then they need to change its name. Same with the heavy suit description because unless everyone is running MLT (the heavy and tanks included) it does not live up to its description.
^^agree 110%
|
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
257
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dj grammer wrote:D legendary hero wrote:^^I'm afraid i can't take you seriously when you run Caldari (bunny hopping) logistics with duvoulles. to add to what D legendary said I cannot take any Caldari Logistics Dropsuit seriously since people run around in them like an assault suit instead of what they are intended for or that they recharge their shields faster than anyone. I will admit I am an AR user but MAJORITY OF THE DUST PLAYERS USE AR's. Why? It is the only gun that can tear though shields and armor evenly and easily. This game is a joke at this point (having 7.4 million SP, 3.23 KDR, 774,397 WP and still get my ass handed to by people proto stumping in public matches). I heavily look down upon people Prototype stumping in public matches (mostly Caldari Logistics or anything for that matter) with little no effort put into the game (please do not suggest way of stopping this because everyone said the same old story and dance). I already foreseen the future for this game. BF4 and COD are just going to take over in November leaving Dust behind with the dust of failure.
leaveing dust in the dust...hahaha |
George Moros
WarRavens League of Infamy
19
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
IMHO, the reason HMG heavy is viewed as underpowered in it's current state is because it's intended role on the battlefield is wrong. HMG heavy is forced to go mid-close range to be effective, and this is not what it's supposed to be doing. He should play the role of LMG soldier in RL infantry (I'm sure someone already mentioned this on the forums, but can't remember who).
HMG heavy should be able to:
Effectively lay suppressive fire on the enemy at medium to long ranges. He should actually prevent the mid-close range enemy from getting too close to him and his squad mates, and help his mid-close squad mates get closer to the enemy. Heavy suit should have enough tank to withstand enemy fire from medium-long ranges, at least long enough to spray enough bullets to make the enemy take cover. A HMG should be accurate enough to aim and hit someone at medium ranges. This does not mean AR accurate, but accurate enough that any non-heavily tanked enemy will either immediately have to take cover, or risk death. At long ranges it should be able to at least spray the area with bullets, providing some sort of covering fire / area denial.
HMG heavy should not be able to:
Excel at CQC. Although it's slow movement / turning speed have already pretty much taken care of that, there are still people who think a HMG heavy should be a CQC brawler, and whine about heavies being too slow / inert / undertanked. A heavy suit should be WTFPWNED by a shotgun scout IF he gets in close. That is pretty much already true if a scout player has decent skills and knows what he's doing. Also, HMG heavy should not be a solo-pwnmobile. He should play a squad support role. A HMG heavy should need his squad mates as much as his squad mates need him.
So, basically, most of what's needed is already there, except the horribly short range of HMG, and maybe enough accuracy to really be effective at mid range. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
257
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bears Beets wrote:OP I can tell you're very hardheaded and set in your ways. I don't want to insult you, but as a Heavy I can safely say that most of your argument has very little to do with Heavies as a whole and more to do with the fact that every so often you can't compete with people who have put in the time and money to get twice as much SP as you.
I would suggest skilling up Armor Upgrades and Shield Upgrades. That'll get your base shields and armor to 506 each. That alone will boost your performance quite a bit. Try out Damage Modifiers. Try different loadouts and tactics.
I feel where you're coming from, but your arguments are only backed by your personal experience and your suggestions are a bit drastic.
i run complex damage mods on all my heavy suits as it is the only thing that makes the weapon do any damage. i have procifiecny at lvl5 so, thats a 35% increase to my base damage. (the adv suits has 2 complex mods, so thats 42% increase indamage). since everyone is shield tanking so hard...
i started leveling up my shield and armor. they are currently at 3 and 2 respectively. but i doubt the extra increase in base will make that big a difference when people are already doing large chunks of damage to me. every match a plyed today were full of people in caldari assault and logistics suits bunny hopping around with ARs and assault scramblers.
with the pathetic slots heavies get we can't tank nearly as hard as everyone else, and the speed reduction is crippling. shield tanking is possible but not as effective as everyone else. (with proto sheidl regs and proto extenders its possible but the lower than average shield recharger rate (when it starts healing) only makes this average outwith a meduim frame who can hybrid tank (yes armor and shield tank) with twice the speed.
the increase in player movement speed doesn't help either.
the only heavies who dnt complain about this are the ones who are in corps that run all proto gear with several proto assaults per squad. but, when your squad is chaulked full of proto logi's with ehp that high and ARs, your bound to get assists or kills thanks to their high dps. the same proto heavy in a reg squad would still die to militia ARs.
i have done it, i have seen other people do, and i have had it done to me. you have had it done to you too.... you must agree something must be done |
Aizen Intiki
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
20
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Meanwhle you're still making a profit........ |
Aizen Intiki
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
20
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Unless, of course, you suck ass....................... |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
257
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
George Moros wrote:IMHO, the reason HMG heavy is viewed as underpowered in it's current state is because it's intended role on the battlefield is wrong. HMG heavy is forced to go mid-close range to be effective, and this is not what it's supposed to be doing. He should play the role of LMG soldier in RL infantry (I'm sure someone already mentioned this on the forums, but can't remember who).
that was me who mentioned it in the thread "the HMG/heavy is not meant for point defense". ...lol
wrote:
HMG heavy should be able to:
Effectively lay suppressive fire on the enemy at medium to long ranges. He should actually prevent the mid-close range enemy from getting too close to him and his squad mates, and help his mid-close squad mates get closer to the enemy. Heavy suit should have enough tank to withstand enemy fire from medium-long ranges, at least long enough to spray enough bullets to make the enemy take cover. A HMG should be accurate enough to aim and hit someone at medium ranges. This does not mean AR accurate, but accurate enough that any non-heavily tanked enemy will either immediately have to take cover, or risk death. At long ranges it should be able to at least spray the area with bullets, providing some sort of covering fire / area denial.
HMG heavy should not be able to:
Excel at CQC. Although it's slow movement / turning speed have already pretty much taken care of that, there are still people who think a HMG heavy should be a CQC brawler, and whine about heavies being too slow / inert / undertanked. A heavy suit should be WTFPWNED by a shotgun scout IF he gets in close. That is pretty much already true if a scout player has decent skills and knows what he's doing. Also, HMG heavy should not be a solo-pwnmobile. He should play a squad support role. A HMG heavy should need his squad mates as much as his squad mates need him.
So, basically, most of what's needed is already there, except the horribly short range of HMG, and maybe enough accuracy to really be effective at mid range.
agree. but damage is a serious factor as well. real LMGs fire the same rounds as ARs, and HMGs bigger rounds. the damage per shot of the HMG in dust should at minimum be the same as a SMG, if not slightly less than an AR.
this won't affect ARs because ARs already do ridiculous damage. |
Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
23
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.
i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor. i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.
A. problems with the HMG: extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy
solution: damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too. A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:
1. range 2. dispersion 3. reload speed 4. over heating 5. recoil
external balancing factors are:
1. all suits increased movement speed, 2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)
B. problems with heavy suit:
the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.
solution: 1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race. 2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.
this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.
alright solution to problem B go to options and increase your X-interval/sesivtivity like all the other tankers |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
257
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:Meanwhle you're still making a profit........
when is it every fair that a milita suit can completely out class a proto suit? ...lol if you used heavy i would WTF pwn you with STd gear too. dnt beleive me we can try it out...lol |
|
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
257
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:D legendary hero wrote:i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.
i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor. i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.
A. problems with the HMG: extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy
solution: damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too. A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:
1. range 2. dispersion 3. reload speed 4. over heating 5. recoil
external balancing factors are:
1. all suits increased movement speed, 2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)
B. problems with heavy suit:
the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.
solution: 1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race. 2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.
this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.
alright solution to problem B go to options and increase your X-interval/sesivtivity like all the other tankers
already have it on max X and Y
|
Kekklian Noobatronic
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
108
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 07:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
I'm a through and through Heavy, and even I have a hard time swallowing this..
D legendary hero wrote:i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.
i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor. i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.
-First, he likely has Shield and Armor skills maxed, granting him +25% / +25%, not to mention effacy bonuses. -With those bonuses, he's also full tank equiped, meaning no damage mods. It's the extreme end of the spectrum. -You only have +15% / +5%, and are using no armor mods, therefore you get no effacy bonus. Or, you are only +5% / +5, and are using a basic shield extender module. Whatever the case, you're drastically under-skilled
D legendary hero wrote: A. problems with the HMG: extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy
-The HMG is perfectly accurate at full-spin, the problem is hit detection. -The damage is fine, the problem is range scaling. Especially if you were engaging outside of 30m, which it sounds like you were. -High range favors the AR - get behind some cover, and force him to come to you. If you want long range combat, you're using the wrong gun.
D legendary hero wrote: solution: damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too. A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:
1. range 2. dispersion 3. reload speed 4. over heating 5. recoil
Let me stop you right there, I'm seeing the problem. You're a low-skilled character trying to take on high skill characters. Want to know how I know? Because you think 'over heating' is a balance. At HMG 5, you basically never overheat. You need to try the Prototype HMG - they don't balance around Standard variants.
Additionally -Every trigger pull(even the small ones) fires off 2-3 rounds. That's about 30-40 damage on a Standard HMG with no damage mods. In other words, ON PAR with AR's. Stop looking at the individual bullet damage, it's not a good indicator of damage output. With your numbers, I would do over 75 damage in a fraction of a second - a completely unreasonable amount. -Range, again. Range is fine, the problem is HMG users not knowing their effective range, and attempting to engage outside of it, as well as HMG users not knowing how to dictate range(something that is fairly important). -You have over 425 rounds. That's about 30 seconds of balls to the wall continuous fire - something no HMG user should ever really be doing(unless you flux'd a bunch of dudes and are going HAM at point blank). The reload time is just fine. -Recoil is really barely noticeable. Because of your previous complaints(over heating, reload speed), it's a easy draw to think that you're basically spraying and praying and hoping for the best - something which WILL generate lots of recoil. Back off the trigger there, Tex.
D legendary hero wrote: external balancing factors are:
1. all suits increased movement speed, 2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)
-Suit movement speeds are fairly close. It's stamina that determines effective mobility in terms of distance -Heavies can disengage at any time. Think smarter, not harder. Ride around with a LAV. Use cover(LAVs make great improvised cover). Know the terrain. You CAN make it out alive, it just requires some thought. -Cover cover cover!!!! If you duck behind a wall, they have to come around the same wall, and nobody(not even proto suit users) like taking on a HMG near point blank.
D legendary hero wrote: B. problems with heavy suit:
the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.
solution: 1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race. 2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.
this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.
This is a mess, but i'll try and tackle it.. -I run around in a standard *all the time*. You can fit an enhanced damage modifier(or complex depending), a plate and a rep on it, not to mention grenades, sidearm, and HMG. You really don't need much else. If you want lots of slots, go play a medium frame. And it only gets better as you get up to ADV and Prototype. At proto level, you're vicious. -Turn speed is fine, but I will say we could probably use a jumping buff. Much more fluid too since 1.2. -If you want a heavy with equipment, Commando is over there *points*. -The part about the damage resistance I agree with, but there's a thread on that already. A rather large one actually.
|
George Moros
WarRavens League of Infamy
20
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 08:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:agree. but damage is a serious factor as well. real LMGs fire the same rounds as ARs, and HMGs bigger rounds. the damage per shot of the HMG in dust should at minimum be the same as a SMG, if not slightly less than an AR.
this won't affect ARs because ARs already do ridiculous damage.
OK, but this is more of a balancing issue. Adjusting accuracy and damage per shot with RoF to make a well balanced weapon. From the way HMG looks (long barrels and all), it definitely should be able to do damage per shot at least as an AR, and at the same ranges. On the other hand, with it's current RoF, and with AR damage per shot, it could easily become OP. |
KOBLAKA1
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
192
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 08:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
George Moros wrote:D legendary hero wrote:agree. but damage is a serious factor as well. real LMGs fire the same rounds as ARs, and HMGs bigger rounds. the damage per shot of the HMG in dust should at minimum be the same as a SMG, if not slightly less than an AR.
this won't affect ARs because ARs already do ridiculous damage. OK, but this is more of a balancing issue. Adjusting accuracy and damage per shot with RoF to make a well balanced weapon. From the way HMG looks (long barrels and all), it definitely should be able to do damage per shot at least as an AR, and at the same ranges. On the other hand, with it's current RoF, and with AR damage per shot, it could easily become OP.
I think they effed when they made it spool to get more accurate, that makes balancing damage and range way harder than it should be. Leave that for the laser HMG when it comes and you have more fps experience under your belt. They should have stuck with only acurate with burst and high damage. |
George Moros
WarRavens League of Infamy
20
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 08:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
KOBLAKA1 wrote: I think they effed when they made it spool to get more accurate, that makes balancing damage and range way harder than it should be. Leave that for the laser HMG when it comes and you have more fps experience under your belt. They should have stuck with only acurate with burst and high damage.
Yeah. Maybe the Amarr heavy pulse gun will have decent range (if it's even on the roadmap). Maybe Minmatar heavy will be more agile and thus more suited for current HMG. Maybe Gallente heavy will have a pink helmet and smell of roses... |
ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
615
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 09:31:00 -
[36] - Quote
LOUD NOISES!!!
Heavies are underpowered because the caldari logi is broke...
STD heavies aren't as good as Proto Asault
HMG got a range increase but so did AR's... but the maps stayed the same...
HMG need to do 1100dmg... per SECOND (but il be ok 800)
Heavies dont have any tank... (1000hp with NO mods)... and doesnt fit any tank
Heavies are slow... "tear runs down face"
Come on bro at least try to have reasonable arguement... |
Khal V'Rani
Nephilim Initiative
152
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 10:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
KOBLAKA1 wrote: I think they effed when they made it spool to get more accurate, that makes balancing damage and range way harder than it should be. Leave that for the laser HMG when it comes and you have more fps experience under your belt. They should have stuck with only acurate with burst and high damage.
I think the reasoning behind the spooling for accuracy is the initial torque created by the rotors to spin the barrels. Which means it would take a minute to adjust and get on target. Just my theory anyway.
|
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
267
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
ChromeBreaker wrote: LOUD NOISES!!! Heavies are overpowered the guy carrying a minigun out gunned my AR... STD assaults aren't as good as Proto heavies ARs need to do just as much damage as HMGs (the first month of uprising) Heavies have too much tank... and can do too much stuff, they a gonna be fat assualt suits... wah wah Heavies are still too fast... *runs to mom crying* ... these are the same exact complaints that assualts and ARs have been saying and look what happened...lol CCP listened to them and ruined the game. they were upset that the heavies the counter infantry were doing the job, and so we were nerfed to 12 damage per round, with no range. then they increased it to 18, but gave a blanket 10 across the board to ARs as well. with thier superior range and similar firepower the purpose to the HMG became lost. most of the problems we have right now, save the caldari logi's would be resolved if the HMG was a threat and could supress like they used too. granted sharpshooter made the AHMGs range rediculous (although it was really that combined twith no stacking penalty on complex damage mods), but the used thor's nerf hammer to crack down on heaves like crime in the 'hood'. wrote: sorry forgot the 35% increased hp against small arms ... so 1600hp that is repped faster on top lol
in the description of the suit it speaks about resistance to small arms fire.
now assaults have had their way and they literally are the heavies now, they have just as much ehp, do just as much damage, have twice as much range and can pretty much do everything better. think that is an overstatement. please tell me, what can a heavy do that an assault or logi suit can't do better? |
Skipper Jones
Red Star. EoN.
222
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
With the unnecessary amount of range that CCP gave everybody. You guys don't need a buff |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
270
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Skipper Jones wrote:With the unnecessary amount of range that CCP gave everybody. You guys don't need a buff
im not really complaining about the range. in fact the range for the HMG is perfect in as much as anymore and it would be OP (by OP i mean AR users will scream at me for hitting them accurately that far)
i could use alot more accuracy after the spooling is in full swing (even with the range the accuracy is **** poor, the spooling is supposed to make it more accurate)
the damage is the biggest problem, because hitting people farther away is nice but having no stopping power defeats the point to engaging them as heavies can't disengage at will like faster suits. |
|
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
141
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic.
agreed. obviously the ar is a better weapon, but the hmg serves it's purpose, and does a better job now that it can hit at range.
to the op: tl;dr |
KOBLAKA1
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
201
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
low genius wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. agreed. obviously the ar is a better weapon, but the hmg serves it's purpose, and does a better job now that it can hit at range. to the op: tl;dr
Again it shouldn't be its a jack of all trades not a master at heavy slaughter. 1 of 3 things need to happen: buff to dmg, range, or heavy survivability. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
270
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 02:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
low genius wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. agreed. obviously the ar is a better weapon, but the hmg serves it's purpose, and does a better job now that it can hit at range. to the op: tl;dr
what does tl:dr even mean? |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
270
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 03:00:00 -
[44] - Quote
KOBLAKA1 wrote: Again it shouldn't be its a jack of all trades not a master at heavy slaughter. 1 of 3 things need to happen: buff to dmg, range, or heavy survivability.
Agreed. i never wanted and still dnt want the HMG to be overpowered. but, is it to much t ask to make th eHMG as good at what its supposed to do as an AR? lol
think about it ARs have similar dps to a HMG with no draw-backs, the HMG does only marginally better DPS compared to the AR with so many down sides its outclassed.
basically the AR just plain outclasses the HMG in every respect. the HMG needs to have that high damage to give it a purpose.
this is a GEK ARs dps without damage mods, the blanket 10%, or proficiency. 469.75
if someone wanted to for go shield tankng to use damage mods on a proto suit, with 4 complex damage mods, the blanket 10% and proficiency (this isn't too farfetched because many people have proficiency in ARs and use complex mods) that dps becomes 469.75 and an additional 53% damage to a total of 718.2 dps.
if someone wanted to use their AR as an HMG they could easily do so.* And because the AR is so accurate you can drop people instantly. but offcourse, most people would rather tank as hard as a heavy instead of doing this (although they could use the mods and armor tank) so they stack shield extenders and regulators, and just slap a GEK on their suit and wala... 588 shields, that replenish instantly no movement penalty and a gun that in less than 2 seconds can do the same damage as an HMG.
*if your wondering for comparisons sake the HMGs max damage potential ill tell you. the ADV HMG does a total of 630 dps without damage mods proficeiny or blanket 10%.
with 2 damage mods (the max possible on a HVY suit), 10% and 15% proficiency, i do 900.9 dps. when you subtract the bullets that dnt hit do to dispersion that number does dwon really fast (at 35% disperion thats 315dps that hits the ground around your target, effectively reducing you effective dps to 585)
|
Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
162
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 03:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Only thing they need to do with Heavies is MAYBE increase damage resistance, so they can do their job, and tank it. They were meant to be a type of defender. Now they're being re-purposed for just amazingly terrifying Assaults (Given you have enough HP in it...). |
KOBLAKA1
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
214
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 05:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:Only thing they need to do with Heavies is MAYBE increase damage resistance, so they can do their job, and tank it. They were meant to be a type of defender. Now they're being re-purposed for just amazingly terrifying Assaults (Given you have enough HP in it...).
commandon't is in no way terrifying lol it still slow, and is no use in a brawl, its for fringe of batle use only. 612 hp is not anything in a heavy frame with a huge hitbox and still slower than everyone else by about .7 or 8 |
Stile451
Red Star. EoN.
109
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 05:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:what does tl:dr even mean? Too long; didn't read.
|
DoomLead
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
80
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 06:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
honest fix for the heavy suit is to either fix the turn speed and add a slot giving the suit a total of four at basic 5 at advanced and 6 at proto and change the suit bonus to something to boost either damage, increase speed, or increase hit points because increase reload speed is useless when there is a skill for it
now the fix for the hmg is to just increase the effective range to 45m or increase damage to mirror the smg this is either or not both |
Eno Raef
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
7
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 06:41:00 -
[49] - Quote
Maybe CCP will eventually make the heavy suit the only suit capable of having massive amounts of HP. I don't know why CCP allows medium suits the capability to run so much HP. You don't need a slow heavy defender when you can just as easily defend with a medium suit with massive HP.
I feel bad for heavy suited players. Increase the high power slots on the heavy to stack more complex damage mods, that might be what's needed. Give players a reason to fear the heavy suit. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
270
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 07:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
KOBLAKA1 wrote:Artificer Ghost wrote:Only thing they need to do with Heavies is MAYBE increase damage resistance, so they can do their job, and tank it. They were meant to be a type of defender. Now they're being re-purposed for just amazingly terrifying Assaults (Given you have enough HP in it...). commandon't is in no way terrifying lol it still slow, and is no use in a brawl, its for fringe of batle use only. 612 hp is not anything in a heavy frame with a huge hitbox and still slower than everyone else by about .7 or 8 edit: im not saying it doesnt have a place but its place is headhunting in an LAV (gek+swarm+LAV+Commandont STD=22-3)
its a nice i dea, but its kind of a waste of ISK and SP in that it costs much more than a regular suit.
My 'dren' caldari suit with 1 militia shield extender, 1 complex damage mod, and 2 basic plates has more ehp and fire power than the commando suit. the suit won't survive longe enough to use its second primary. |
|
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
270
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 07:07:00 -
[51] - Quote
Stile451 wrote:D legendary hero wrote:what does tl:dr even mean? Too long; didn't read.
thanks |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
270
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 07:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
Eno Raef wrote:Maybe CCP will eventually make the heavy suit the only suit capable of having massive amounts of HP. I don't know why CCP allows medium suits the capability to run so much HP. You don't need a slow heavy defender when you can just as easily defend with a medium suit with massive HP.
I feel bad for heavy suited players. Increase the high power slots on the heavy to stack more complex damage mods, that might be what's needed. Give players a reason to fear the heavy suit.
Agree one hundred percent. |
nukel head
Knights of No Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 00:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:nukel head wrote:I didn't read the whole post honestly, but I stopped reading when you were basically saying that your lower level and non armored heavy suit lost to a proto assault. Why wouldn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if it got completely owned by a proto scout with nova knives either. I am starting to understand that the mindset a lot of heavies have is that they should be almost invincible to anything else on the battlefield. That is simply not the case. They are definitely tougher and comparing level for level with other suits are superior in that respect. If I run assault and go head to head with a heavy that is properly fitted and knows what he is doing, I almost never win. On the other hand, if I catch him out in the open or in a position where I can outmaneuver him then the odds go the other way. How is that not balanced? The Underlined words say everything that you know about how it should be. It is as to saying that a knight in chainmail armor and a Mace can, and should most likely be, better then a Knight in full Plate Armor , with a Horse and a hand and a half. Making the HMG more Accurate, or making accuracy get better overtime faster would solve the problem. Its the Fact that 75%+ Shots are just Flying into the Dust as you try to kill a Proto AR user, while he Spews Laser Precise Accurate rounds. And when I say Laser accurate, I mean that it is basically Point and Spam R1. The Bullets Line up so neatly that, unless you when Frame by frame, the Path the Bullets Follow look like basically one line
How is your comparison in ANY WAY remotely related? I don't recall ever seeing a heavy on a horse. As a matter of fact, a heavy is SUPPOSED TO BE LESS MOBILE AND HAVE LESS RANGE. Remove the horse, and you might be getting closer. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens League of Infamy
234
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 01:42:00 -
[54] - Quote
I don't know. I usually do fine in my heavy suit, but then I'm a dedicated Forge Gunner. When it comes down to it, the basic drawbacks and benefits of the heavy don't support the supposition that they should be in close combat. Understanding that, it's why I don't run a HMG which is intended to be in CQC where the heavy suit is weakest. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
2157
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 02:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way. Typical.
I got into a match where my entire team got BRUTALLY ASSRAPED by 4 Sentinels who stayed around each null cannon terminal in the city (there were 3) and only attacked people at close range.
HMGs are not under-powered. Analyze how you're using them, and I think you'll see the problem is with you. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
273
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 05:05:00 -
[56] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way. Typical. I got into a match where my entire team got BRUTALLY ASSRAPED by 4 Sentinels who stayed around each null cannon terminal in the city (there were 3) and only attacked people at close range. HMGs are not under-powered. Analyze how you're using them, and I think you'll see the problem is with you.
thats funny, because my team got WTF pwned by an enemy team full of caldari logs with over 900 ehp. in fact every match i played since ISK transfers became a thing, i've faced nothing but caldari logis that completely owned my heavy suit. in fact, i one v oned a guy named firehouseHD, who out gunned my HMG with a duvoule in close quarters killing my with a total of 1001 damage in less than 2 seconds. you even told me that he only had lvl three AR proficeincy.
i can't even get mad at him. obviously the caldari suits are ding what they need to do. but my heavy needs a buff.
@the guy wanting me to compare the heavy suit proto to an assault/meduim suit proto.
ok, i already showed that a milita Ar has comparable damage to an HMG, now i will show that the proto heavy suit is nothing to a STD meduim frame. (for the ease of comparison we will not factor in the skills that increase shields or efficacy. assume either both have them max or neither has them max)
ref. (210 shield 120 armor caldari base) (basic heavy base 405/405) (commando 250/250)
MEDIUM FRAMES
*STD caldari meduim frame= 2 high and 2 low slots. (nonracial) 2 x complex shield extenders = 132 2 x complex armor plates = 230
342/350 total ehp = 692
ADV caldari medium frame = 3 high and 2 low (non racial) 3 x complex shield extenders = 198 2 x complex armor plates = 230
408/350 total ehp = 758
proto caldari medium frame = 4 high and 3 low (non racial) 4 x complex shield extenders = 264 3 x complex armor plates = 345
474/465
total ehp = 939 ehp^
^including the proficiencies and everything this number clears 1000 ehp
HVYs
Basic proto heavy= 2 high and 3 low 2 x complex shield extenders = 132 3 x complex armor plates = 345
537/745 total ehp = 1282
sentinal proto heavy= 1 high and 4 low 1 x complex shield extenders = 66 4 x complex armor plates = 460
471/865 total ehp = 1336
Conclusion
As you can see the ehp of caldari gear comes so close to that of heavy gear at every level that heavy gear becomes obsolete. the standard caldari non-racial medium frame can easily out clase the commando suit. and the heavy suit with its extremely low mobility, turn speed, and large hit box only has about 200-300 more ehp to show for it. which in terms of dps and ARs amounts to 1 more second of fire that is required.
since the heavy is easy to hit, the suit is obsolete.
problem?
*commando is useless... commando proto= 2 high 2 x complex shield extenders = 132
382/250
total ehp = 632
The commando is a failure as with a caldari medium frame (none racial), 2 basic shield extenders, 1 reactive plate and 1 basic armor plates gives you just as much (slightly more) ehp than a commando suit (if i put 2 basic armor pplates my ehp becomes much higher than commando base hp). if i have the skills into increasing basic shield and armor my ehp does higher.
and just so that you know the commando suit doesn't get any slots until it reaches the proto lvl and even those are lack luster.
|
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
273
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 05:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy Likes received: 302 #102 Posted: 2013.06.05 03:41 | Report | Edited by: BL4CKST4R Like 3 Caldari Logistics NO racial EHP: 843
Caldari Logistics racial EHP: 934 <-- holy sh...
Gallente Logistics EHP: 698
Caldari Assault EHP: 846
Gallente Assault EHP: 773
Gallente Assault 6% speed buff EHP: 828
Gallente Logistics 6% speed buff EHP: 753
CaLogi NO racial -1 High slot EHP: 770
_________ Amarr Assault EHP:811
Amarr Logistics EHP:736
Minmatar Assault EHP: 862 <-- 5.01m/s base speed after armor modules, wow...
Minmatar Logistics EHP: 733 <-- 4.72 base speed after armor modules
Armor/Shield balance needs to be balanced at the suit level first, then work on buffing the armor modules themselves. Doing so would move the Amarr and Minmatar to the top of the OP list, while balancing the Gallente and Caldari in the bottom end. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
293
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 16:06:00 -
[58] - Quote
bump |
Eno Raef
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
17
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 16:26:00 -
[59] - Quote
After Uprising, it was obvious to me that CCP would not take the heavy seriously and give it a fighting chance over medium suits. Therefore, I like the majority of everyone else moved to the medium suits when I finally got a respec. The Caldari logi isn't the only medium suit that can amass high HP, it simply does it better. It seems that CP wants everyone to use medium suits when they give so many high and low module slots that allow it to have more hp than a base heavy. Players have no reason to run a heavy when the medium suit can do it better. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
318
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:45:00 -
[60] - Quote
^^my point exactly. |
|
nukel head
Knights of No Republic
45
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:20:00 -
[61] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:nukel head wrote:D legendary hero wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic. Ignore him. It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way. are you serious? ya know what ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. i want you to do me a favor. put 50,000 SP (you can get that in 2 days or so, playing casually, of 5 games playing seriously). put that into HMGs. just get a STD one. now put that on a militia suit, fit it out how you like. and use it. use it for 3 days, and then tell me what you think. please. Interesting. If the HMG is so terrible and the AR so epic...why don't you just use the AR? Last time I checked it would fit into that big muscley heavy weapon slot just fine. Would only take a day or two worth casual play to skill into those as well. ARs and heavy suits are ok. but i specc'd into them and it only proves my point. infact your post here only proves my point. if the only way to compete is to do what everyone else does, then its OP, or every thing is UP.
My post proves what? I was asking the question because I very rarely see a heavy sporting an AR. Why would that be is the AR is so powerful? Or are we talking about PROTO AR? |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
322
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:32:00 -
[62] - Quote
nukel head wrote:
My post proves what? I was asking the question because I very rarely see a heavy sporting an AR. Why would that be is the AR is so powerful? Or are we talking about PROTO AR?
the post proves that if the only viable solution in game to counter the AR is to use another AR then the AR is OP. if the only way to counter mass drivers was to use mass drives the MD would be OP |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
545
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:33:00 -
[63] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.
i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor. i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.
A. problems with the HMG: extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy
solution: damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too. A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:
1. range 2. dispersion 3. reload speed 4. over heating 5. recoil
external balancing factors are:
1. all suits increased movement speed, 2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)
B. problems with heavy suit:
the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.
solution: 1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race. 2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.
this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.
What if instead of buffing the HMG, we buff the suit to have 1600+ EHP when fully stacked for HP, nerf the Caldari Logi bonus, and actually fix armor, and bonuses, instead of throwing at us some useless plates! Even though your damage won't increase chances are you will kill them before your shields even notice they are being tickled |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
322
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:38:00 -
[64] - Quote
^^this could work too. ultimatly however it is fixed the HMG must be good at taking/supressing out infantry when equiped with an HMG. |
nukel head
Knights of No Republic
45
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:40:00 -
[65] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:^^seriously, have you tried hitting people with this wacky aimming system using an HMG. on top of that i have to put my sensitivety up to 10 to get any turn on this thing, and the fact that movement speed was increased makes hitting people near impossible.
remember that 500 shield is resistant to bullet projectiles, and stile recover shwile being shot at. yes, if i shot the shield tankers shield the recharge timer starts after the first round hits, by bunny hoping and two step strafing, considering that they recharge 25 hp per second, and i do only 18 damage per shot, they can effectiely heal back at a rate higher than i am damaging.
people look at the paper numbers "oh proto hmg does 660 dps.. herp derp", but when all the factors are lined up its pitiful.
a GEK AR with just the blanket 10% does 490.9 dps. that only requires 170,000 SP. in less than 3days you can get a weapon that damage coparable to an HMG. in 2 seconds you've done 982 damage. so you heavy survies 1 second longer than your average troop if neither move. but because other units are more mobile, the heavy suit actually dies faster.
if the ehp where raised too high the heavy suit would be OP. but the damage increase and resistance i proposed are the only ways (without nerfing everything else) to make the heavy a usible suit.
We've tried hitting things with most every gun in the game (ok, I haven't tried the plasma cannon). Everyone has the same wacky aiming system and the enemies don't run any slower for anyone else. I use the GEK, but not when enemies get close because despite the really epic sounding numbers you posted, it is very difficult to hit with in close. I get most of my CQC kills with my STD SMG sidearm. Actually, I can do a lot more damage to heavies with it than I can my AR if I can get close. I guess it's OP? |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
547
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:44:00 -
[66] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:^^this could work too. ultimatly however it is fixed the HMG must be good at taking/supressing out infantry when equiped with an HMG.
Well I think the HMG should do 100/100, even though it is a Minmatar weapon we really need it to do equal damage to armor and shields. If the above was set, which it will in the near future (hopefully under 5 years from now ), and the HMG did 100/100 there is no living soul brave enough to charge at you because they will be instantly dropped. It would require a really good scout with a MD or a shotgun, or at least two people to take down a heavy. Now imagine a heavy backed by a core focused repair tool that did not discriminate (shield and armor repair) he would be the ultimate wall.
|
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
322
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:46:00 -
[67] - Quote
nukel head wrote:D legendary hero wrote:^^seriously, have you tried hitting people with this wacky aimming system using an HMG. on top of that i have to put my sensitivety up to 10 to get any turn on this thing, and the fact that movement speed was increased makes hitting people near impossible.
remember that 500 shield is resistant to bullet projectiles, and stile recover shwile being shot at. yes, if i shot the shield tankers shield the recharge timer starts after the first round hits, by bunny hoping and two step strafing, considering that they recharge 25 hp per second, and i do only 18 damage per shot, they can effectiely heal back at a rate higher than i am damaging.
people look at the paper numbers "oh proto hmg does 660 dps.. herp derp", but when all the factors are lined up its pitiful.
a GEK AR with just the blanket 10% does 490.9 dps. that only requires 170,000 SP. in less than 3days you can get a weapon that damage coparable to an HMG. in 2 seconds you've done 982 damage. so you heavy survies 1 second longer than your average troop if neither move. but because other units are more mobile, the heavy suit actually dies faster.
if the ehp where raised too high the heavy suit would be OP. but the damage increase and resistance i proposed are the only ways (without nerfing everything else) to make the heavy a usible suit. We've tried hitting things with most every gun in the game (ok, I haven't tried the plasma cannon). Everyone has the same wacky aiming system and the enemies don't run any slower for anyone else. I use the GEK, but not when enemies get close because despite the really epic sounding numbers you posted, it is very difficult to hit with in close. I get most of my CQC kills with my STD SMG sidearm. Actually, I can do a lot more damage to heavies with it than I can my AR if I can get close. I guess it's OP?
SMGs can't kill a heavy 40m out my hmgs max range. and i cnt imagine how you have a hard time killing in CQC with a gek do it all the time and it works all to well... nice try though. lol
so, no that SMG is working well within its parameters, ARs out gunning HMGs however at the hmgs optimal range is another story...
and yeah the enemy isnt moving any slower for you because your moving at their speed. but the heavy cnt move at there speed therefore the disparity is higher. (read earlier posts) |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
322
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:49:00 -
[68] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:D legendary hero wrote:^^this could work too. ultimatly however it is fixed the HMG must be good at taking/supressing out infantry when equiped with an HMG. Well I think the HMG should do 100/100, even though it is a Minmatar weapon we really need it to do equal damage to armor and shields. If the above was set, which it will in the near future (hopefully under 5 years from now ), and the HMG did 100/100 there is no living soul brave enough to charge at you because they will be instantly dropped. It would require a really good scout with a MD or a shotgun, or at least two people to take down a heavy. Now imagine a heavy backed by a core focused repair tool that did not discriminate (shield and armor repair) he would be the ultimate wall.
this could max a big difference. well if the HMG did the bonus to armor and still did 100 to shield, it would make it worl. as it is an anti-infantry weapon this is a good idea. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1025
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:55:00 -
[69] - Quote
Hey look, he's back, and still smoking crack.
Fixing armor tanking fixes heavies. It just happens that it fixes the amarr assault and logi as well as the gallente assault, logi and scout all at once.
Go effing figure. fixing the intended method of tanking makes the suits viable? Interesting concept.
this is all heavies need: Armor tanking which is as viable as shield tanking.
And ferroscale and reactive plates not to suck. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
338
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 04:02:00 -
[70] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Hey look, he's back, and still smoking crack.
Fixing armor tanking fixes heavies. It just happens that it fixes the amarr assault and logi as well as the gallente assault, logi and scout all at once.
Go effing figure. fixing the intended method of tanking makes the suits viable? Interesting concept.
this is all heavies need: Armor tanking which is as viable as shield tanking.
And ferroscale and reactive plates not to suck.
hmmm by thatlogic fixing the intended use for the HMG would make it work to... oh wait thats only what ive been saying for ******* 300 posts. |
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1025
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 04:07:00 -
[71] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Hey look, he's back, and still smoking crack.
Fixing armor tanking fixes heavies. It just happens that it fixes the amarr assault and logi as well as the gallente assault, logi and scout all at once.
Go effing figure. fixing the intended method of tanking makes the suits viable? Interesting concept.
this is all heavies need: Armor tanking which is as viable as shield tanking.
And ferroscale and reactive plates not to suck. hmmm by thatlogic fixing the intended use for the HMG would make it work to... oh wait thats only what ive been saying for ******* 300 posts.
the only fix HMGs need is fixing hit detection. Hit detection is getting better and my HMG flays off defenses notably faster. Enhancing the performance of the DUST engine so far makes them do the job more.
right now the wonky-ass strafe speeds are causing the problem when people can strafe and backpedal at the same speed as moving forward and sprint-strafe from side to side. this causes lots of hit detection issues. hilarious when you hit them with a forge gun though. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
340
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 06:21:00 -
[72] - Quote
^^this is true |
lol bunnies
Always playing to AFK
7
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 07:28:00 -
[73] - Quote
Agree but every other gun also benefits from better hit detection, so buffing everyone the same (hit detection) doesn't help to make any one gun better. I don't think the HMG should do the same for both shield and armor (lore) but rather CCP make a variant more effective against shields. I think we're close to balance but we need a solid 25%resitance not 25%more life. You cannot balance the HMG and heavy suit together, like the duvolle tac everything needs to be examined individually. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1028
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 07:45:00 -
[74] - Quote
lol bunnies wrote:You cannot balance the HMG and heavy suit together, like the duvolle tac everything needs to be examined individually.
you have to do this. you cannot use the HMG on any other suit. They have to be examined together. |
Seymor Krelborn
DUST University Ivy League
102
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 09:30:00 -
[75] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.
i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor. i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.
A. problems with the HMG: extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy
solution: damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too. A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:
1. range 2. dispersion 3. reload speed 4. over heating 5. recoil
external balancing factors are:
1. all suits increased movement speed, 2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)
B. problems with heavy suit:
the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.
solution: 1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race. 2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.
this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.
sorry but HMGs hit hard enough... heavy suits are buffed enough.... turning slow balances their incredible power.
on my alt which I just started I run heavies... a bp eon heavy suit with basic HMG and I murder mercs with it.
judging by your post you seem to think a heavy is a front line troop who charges into battle.
they are not...
heavies fortify a position they are defensive and they are amazing at that job.
also... you aren't running proto...anything proto will be tougher than your basic heavy suit by design... its supposed to be that way... get into a boundless suit and then see how you feel... |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1034
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 13:23:00 -
[76] - Quote
SENTINELS are defensive.
Heavies are heavies.
there is a difference. |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
341
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 18:31:00 -
[77] - Quote
wrote: sorry but HMGs hit hard enough... heavy suits are buffed enough.... turning slow balances their incredible power.
on my alt which I just started I run heavies... a bp eon heavy suit with basic HMG and I murder mercs with it.
they are not...
heavies fortify a position they are defensive and they are amazing at that job.
also... you aren't running proto...anything proto will be tougher than your basic heavy suit by design... its supposed to be that way... get into a boundless suit and then see how you feel...
I am sorry but you are wrong. please read some of my earlier posts as i have put up the math, and described the experiences of using a heavy. i have all heavy gear from proto to std, the proto suits are hardly that much better than the basic. seriously the proto suit gets only 2high and 3 low. the sentinel gets 1 high and 4 low.
a STD AR in one clip does 1860 damage, and has a dps of 425, (milita Aits dps is 425, and has 48 in one clip so in one clip it does 1632).
wrote: judging by your post you seem to think a heavy is a front line troop who charges into battle.
and judging by your post you seem to think the heavy is supposed to sit on a non contested objective the whole game and wait for that one scout to pass by and shotgun you in the back.
in fact there are logistics suits that run around like assaults and do the hievies job better... i.e. the cadari logi with 588 shield, 417 armor.
let me ask you what is the fundamental difference between defending an area and attacking the very same spot. its unreasonable to think that a heavy who can't attack a position can magically defend the same position... forexample, if im defending the hallway of legend that you guys preach heavies belong in, what is the difference between me attacking people in it, and me defending it from approach? on defense id get grenaded, out gunned by ARs, and shotgunned, mass driven or flaylocked...
on offense the very same thing would happen.
defene and offense are related to your positioning not the suit you use. i've used my militia minmintar suit to defend objectives from 4-5 enemies... with dren AR and flaylocks. in fact in an alt i started yesterday i got a 1 man OB. you can ask CCP for my player record and will see that i got one yesterday using my account 'the warrior of legend.'
its not my skill the heavy suit just sucks. it needs more slots, better turn speed, and better movement speed OR more slots, a resistance to damage by 30% and better turn speed.
everyone else can modify their suit to do what they want with it, why can't i modify my heavy suit.
the HMG is another issue in its self.... with the poor hit detection, and fact that the enemy must but in the dot on the center of the hmg to be hit by any rounds which still factors dispersion is a shame... but i cover this in another thread |
CLONE117
Planetary Response Organization
29
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 18:51:00 -
[78] - Quote
u use over 200round of an hmg just to kill a single player...
i was suggesting a slower rof to fix it..
but heavy suit is too weak for its true roles..
it needs a buff in base hp..
since meduim suits can get that amount of hp easily.
and the heavy suit needs a buff in overall damage resistance oh and mlt ars.
a full clip will bring a heavy with full shield and armor down to half armor.
thats if all rounds hit.
the heavy suit is to slow ppl jump around all over the place and focus fire on heavys..
im sure every1 yells at there position the second they r seen.
they r pursued relentlessly across the entire map.
and any gun will melt there shields and tear their armor really fast..
while scout suits can dogde nearly every bullet that come at them and assualt can dogde some of that fire too....
ppl swarm on heavies shooting them from all directions.
its really unfair not being able to shoot back when players can run around u so easily the only time heavies will kill.. narrows hall way with little cover or if the heavy sets up a kill zone area//
but they have to use more cover than any other suit since they r so slow.
and im sure there more to say but i cant think of it right now..
but they do always have to look both ways before crossing the road. they might get splattered by an lav... |
D legendary hero
Strong-Arm
343
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 20:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:u use over 200round of an hmg just to kill a single player...
i was suggesting a slower rof to fix it..
but heavy suit is too weak for its true roles..
it needs a buff in base hp..
since meduim suits can get that amount of hp easily.
and the heavy suit needs a buff in overall damage resistance oh and mlt ars.
a full clip will bring a heavy with full shield and armor down to half armor.
thats if all rounds hit.
the heavy suit is to slow ppl jump around all over the place and focus fire on heavys..
im sure every1 yells at there position the second they r seen.
they r pursued relentlessly across the entire map.
and any gun will melt there shields and tear their armor really fast..
while scout suits can dogde nearly every bullet that come at them and assualt can dogde some of that fire too....
ppl swarm on heavies shooting them from all directions.
its really unfair not being able to shoot back when players can run around u so easily the only time heavies will kill.. narrows hall way with little cover or if the heavy sets up a kill zone area//
but they have to use more cover than any other suit since they r so slow.
and im sure there more to say but i cant think of it right now..
but they do always have to look both ways before crossing the road. they might get splattered by an lav...
you are 100% correct. this is the exact truth. long story short the life expectancy of a heavy is low... real low
|
D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
368
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 03:27:00 -
[80] - Quote
bump |
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calvin b
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
50
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 04:48:00 -
[81] - Quote
They made the commando so heavies could use AR. The commandont is a joke. The reason I cant run an AR on a heavy is lack of ability to replenish the ammo. The supposed Logi is running around being an assault and fail to drop us heavies enough nanohives on some matches. So that is why I do not use the AR. Also I am sick of the AR this and AR that. Were is the diversity if everyone is running AR's? |
castba
Penguin's March
33
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 22:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
DoomLead wrote:honest fix for the heavy suit is to either fix the turn speed and add a slot giving the suit a total of four at basic 5 at advanced and 6 at proto and change the suit bonus to something to boost either damage, increase speed, or increase hit points because increase reload speed is useless when there is a skill for it
now the fix for the hmg is to just increase the effective range to 45m or increase damage to mirror the smg this is either or not both I think you will find that once the other racial heavy suits come, they will have 4, 5 & 6 slots. Every one needs to remember that we are using an Amarr heavy suit and as with the medium frame suits wil have less module slots than the other races.
I would like to see the Sentinel bonus change to 5% damage resistance per level - leave the speed and modules alone.
HMG? Agree with the 45m range, but maybe give it a sharpshooter skill at 3% per level instead of the 5% that the AR and SMG have.
That should make the heavy a little more feared without making them OP... Although I would be concerned about medium guys crying about the changes. |
D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
389
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 07:06:00 -
[83] - Quote
my proto hmg still gets out gunned by adv ARs |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
469
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 07:16:00 -
[84] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:my proto hmg still gets out gunned by adv ARs
It doesn't help that we have to be Sniper accurate with our Aim on a High Dispersion lolHigh Damage lolCQC suppression weapon because the HMG Hit Detection is messed up. |
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