I'm afraid I simply can't take you seriously when you suggest a damage buff that drastic.

Ignore him.
It's obvious he wants the HMG to be an AR, only better in every way.

are you serious? ya know what ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. i want you to do me a favor. put 50,000 SP (you can get that in 2 days or so, playing casually, of 5 games playing seriously). put that into HMGs. just get a STD one.

now put that on a militia suit, fit it out how you like. and use it. use it for 3 days, and then tell me what you think. please.

i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.

i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor.
i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.


A. problems with the HMG:
extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy

solution:
damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too.
A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:

1. range
2. dispersion
3. reload speed
4. over heating
5. recoil

external balancing factors are:

1. all suits increased movement speed,
2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)



B. problems with heavy suit:

the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.

solution:
1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race.
2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.


this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.

I didn't read the whole post honestly, but I stopped reading when you were basically saying that your lower level and non armored heavy suit lost to a proto assault. Why wouldn't it?

I didn't read the whole post honestly, but I stopped reading when you were basically saying that your lower level and non armored heavy suit lost to a proto assault. Why wouldn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if it got completely owned by a proto scout with nova knives either. I am starting to understand that the mindset a lot of heavies have is that they should be almost invincible to anything else on the battlefield. That is simply not the case. They are definitely tougher and comparing level for level with other suits are superior in that respect. If I run assault and go head to head with a heavy that is properly fitted and knows what he is doing, I almost never win. On the other hand, if I catch him out in the open or in a position where I can outmaneuver him then the odds go the other way. How is that not balanced?

Consider this: If your proposed 'fixes' went through, why would anyone use anything other than a heavy?

are you serious? ya know what ok, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. i want you to do me a favor. put 50,000 SP (you can get that in 2 days or so, playing casually, of 5 games playing seriously). put that into HMGs. just get a STD one.

now put that on a militia suit, fit it out how you like. and use it. use it for 3 days, and then tell me what you think. please.

Allow me to grace you with a logical answer.

You are suggesting over a 50% damage buff to the HMG. Right now, the HMG has significantly higher damage output than an AR, balanced by the dispersion. The range was previously a problem, but this has been much improved by the range fix in Uprising 1.2. The length of this post shows that you didn't consider the effect of 1.2 - it's too long and it was posted too shortly after the patch to have been the product of careful, up to date testing.

If you buffed the damage of the HMG by 50-80%, it would completely decimate literally everything in a second, including other heavies. Recoil does not balance this - recoil on the HMG is hardly a concern. Overheating does not balance this - you are an awful player if you overheat your HMG. Reload speed does not balance this - you have a gigantic clip size. Range does not balance this - This has been improved significantly with 1.2. Dispersion is the only thing that might come close to preventing that from being completely overpowered - except, of course, the damage output is so high that you reach AR level dps at that range even if the target is only slightly in the reticule.

The HMG may need some tweaking, but nothing nearly that drastic. Your numbers are horribly biased and taken from outliers from the other classes whilst comparing it against the weakest examples of your own class.

In addition to this insane HMG buff, you suggest making heavies much more durable. I agree with the turn speed issue, but your suggestions drastically increase the survivability of heavies. ~40% resistance to small arms fire is a huge bonus - and you're suggesting adding more slots on top of that.

Consider this: If your proposed 'fixes' went through, why would anyone use anything other than a heavy?

Interesting. If the HMG is so terrible and the AR so epic...why don't you just use the AR? Last time I checked it would fit into that big muscley heavy weapon slot just fine. Would only take a day or two worth casual play to skill into those as well.

Thank you for making a suggestion. That said, I think HMG are designed as a defensive tool not offensive. They are designed for close contact at objectives.

Did you get a chance to try the Commando suit, which is a Heavy designed for mobility and mid range engagements? If so what are the results?

1. over heating is a serious issue when you need over 400+ rounds to break through 500 hp of bunny hopping, and highly evasive shields.
2. 8 second reload is a balancing factor. a militia AR without damage mods, the blank 10% or 15% from proficiency does 425 dps thats 850 damage in 2 seconds. to put that in better terms in 27 bullets 945 damage is done. that is the militia variant. mind you, you can not run away or take evasive maneuvers. you better have a decent secondary and even with the faster switch you stll disadvantaged verse an AR.
3. range. Ars got the buff too... so although it is better (which is why i haven't sighted it as a problem) its a mute point.
4. turn speed again is a huge problem.

it all boils down to the damage. even if it did the same damage to shield as it does to armor id be happy. but an increase in damage per shot is necessary, when ARs do comparable damage at a longer range, with a fast reload, higher accuracy, they never over heat, are dirt cheap, require almost no SP to start using, and can be used to do almost anything in the game.

considering that with a logistics suit but especial caldari you can get ehp equal to or greater than a heavy and there is no penalty for it.


in light of this why wouldn't everyone just us an AR and a logistics suit?
oh... wait... they are.

^^I'm afraid i can't take you seriously when you run Caldari (bunny hopping) logistics with duvoulles.

So having played a good chunk of the day today, HMG does get outperformed at range, and its still pretty shite unless they are only a few feet from you. However, it doesn't need AR damage per bullet. It should follow the SMG path of per shot progression of damage. "but you have an assault hmg thats what thats for if you want range"... it does less damage the Assault SMG does more damage... Why should it follow SMG damage progression? because they are both a Minmatar weapon. It makes zero sense that a smaller weapon would do more damage than a bigger one (Sub vs Heavy MG). At minimum they should be using the same bullet, if not a bigger one for the HMG. Bigger = more damage its physics and it applies cuz these are ballistic weapons. Now if we got this damage increase we wouldn't need a range increase falloff would do its job and at range we would do less damage. (to be perfectly fair its an HMG go goolgle them by all rights they should outperform most guns just be bulky and have crappy accuracy because of that bulk since they are uually attached to bases/vehicles [of course if we had more AI weapons maybe a gun that doesnt spool up to obtain accuracy would do more damage but thats on CCP not us])

As for the heavy suit itself if hmg dmg went up a lot of bitvhing about the heavy suit would disappear. The problem for why we feel so weak is long we have to shoot someone to kill them. While we are shooting our gun we slow down,and the moment we spool it down we loose accuracy. Conversely if we had more suvivability we wouldnt feel a need for HMG buffs.

Finally the commando, the commando is not made for brawls whatsoever. When trying to fight front line style it gets owned. It just nor fast enough and has no way to boost ehp significantly (2 his and 1 low at PROTO) so its again an issue of we have to pick damage or tank. Whereas other suits can fit 1 or 2 damage mods plus a tank. "wah wah it has higher ehp" garbage its still the second to last slowest suit, same turn speed, same hitbox. So an increase to tank would help it (ie damage resistance rather than 2% module efficiency when it only gets 3 modules...[a whole other can of worms]) The commando accels in a LAV or camping. I went 9/2 13/2 7/4 and 11/3 while cruising in an LAV and jumpin out to kill loners or swarm other LAVs/vehicles.

Edit: meant to add a caveat for the google comment, I'm not trying to compare it to modern day weapons, Im simply using english to define something (well technically 2). If its not an HMG then they need to change its name. Same with the heavy suit description because unless everyone is running MLT (the heavy and tanks included) it does not live up to its description.

to add to what D legendary said

I cannot take any Caldari Logistics Dropsuit seriously since people run around in them like an assault suit instead of what they are intended for or that they recharge their shields faster than anyone. I will admit I am an AR user but MAJORITY OF THE DUST PLAYERS USE AR's. Why? It is the only gun that can tear though shields and armor evenly and easily. This game is a joke at this point (having 7.4 million SP, 3.23 KDR, 774,397 WP and still get my ass handed to by people proto stumping in public matches). I heavily look down upon people Prototype stumping in public matches (mostly Caldari Logistics or anything for that matter) with little no effort put into the game (please do not suggest way of stopping this because everyone said the same old story and dance). I already foreseen the future for this game. BF4 and COD are just going to take over in November leaving Dust behind with the dust of failure.

OP I can tell you're very hardheaded and set in your ways. I don't want to insult you, but as a Heavy I can safely say that most of your argument has very little to do with Heavies as a whole and more to do with the fact that every so often you can't compete with people who have put in the time and money to get twice as much SP as you.

I would suggest skilling up Armor Upgrades and Shield Upgrades. That'll get your base shields and armor to 506 each. That alone will boost your performance quite a bit. Try out Damage Modifiers. Try different loadouts and tactics.

I feel where you're coming from, but your arguments are only backed by your personal experience and your suggestions are a bit drastic.

IMHO, the reason HMG heavy is viewed as underpowered in it's current state is because it's intended role on the battlefield is wrong. HMG heavy is forced to go mid-close range to be effective, and this is not what it's supposed to be doing. He should play the role of LMG soldier in RL infantry (I'm sure someone already mentioned this on the forums, but can't remember who).

HMG heavy should be able to:

Effectively lay suppressive fire on the enemy at medium to long ranges. He should actually prevent the mid-close range enemy from getting too close to him and his squad mates, and help his mid-close squad mates get closer to the enemy.
Heavy suit should have enough tank to withstand enemy fire from medium-long ranges, at least long enough to spray enough bullets to make the enemy take cover. A HMG should be accurate enough to aim and hit someone at medium ranges. This does not mean AR accurate, but accurate enough that any non-heavily tanked enemy will either immediately have to take cover, or risk death. At long ranges it should be able to at least spray the area with bullets, providing some sort of covering fire / area denial.

HMG heavy should not be able to:

Excel at CQC. Although it's slow movement / turning speed have already pretty much taken care of that, there are still people who think a HMG heavy should be a CQC brawler, and whine about heavies being too slow / inert / undertanked. A heavy suit should be WTFPWNED by a shotgun scout IF he gets in close. That is pretty much already true if a scout player has decent skills and knows what he's doing. Also, HMG heavy should not be a solo-pwnmobile. He should play a squad support role. A HMG heavy should need his squad mates as much as his squad mates need him.


So, basically, most of what's needed is already there, except the horribly short range of HMG, and maybe enough accuracy to really be effective at mid range.

i just finished playing for 3 hours (to thuroughly test out the patch and HMG) with a squad and every match we encountered caldari logisitics with over 1000 EHP.

i fought one guy in a caldari assault suit (or logi i dnt quit remember but it was proto) who had 588 shield and 417 armor.
i faced advanced caldari suits with 780ehp. my heavy suit only has 466 and 425 shield/armor respectively. i dnt put plates because the penalties are far too great.


A. problems with the HMG:
extremely low damage, and high inaccuracy

solution:
damage per shot and total DPS. the base damage must be increased to AT MINIMUM SMG damage per shot (25+), if not at max assault rifle damage per shot (34+). this gun isnt doing enough damage at its optimal range, i am still being out gunned by ARs, and SRs. in close range im beat by everything and at long range too.
A buff even to 34 damage per shot is balanced by the HMGs:

1. range
2. dispersion
3. reload speed
4. over heating
5. recoil

external balancing factors are:

1. all suits increased movement speed,
2. other suits ability to disengage at anytime. (explained below)



B. problems with heavy suit:

the slow movement speed, turn speed, and extremely limited slots makes this suit ineffective against all but milita gear even at the proto level. enemies can easily engage and disengage the heavy at anytime regardless of what weapon he is using. making the suit a liability to the team rather than an asset.

solution:
1. increase turn speed to that of all other suits. add more high and low slots to be on par with the assault suit of the same race, or 1 less than the logistics suit of the same race.
2. give the suit a 25% base resistance to damage with an increase via leveling up the heavy suit (basic,sentinel, commando, etc) to a max of 35-45% resistance to small arms fire.


this is balanced the fact that other suits have an extreme advantage in movement speed, jump height and over all mobility. and since other suits can reach the same EHP or greater than that of a heavy without sacrificing speed. the heavy should be able to counter act this with greater defense, and turning speed. inaddition to a better slot layout allowing for a more versitly soldier.

Meanwhle you're still making a profit........