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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
274
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay since we are sharing common development ideas here are some for EVE PVP
1.No autopilot 2. All weapon systems have to be manually aimed and maintained 3.Flying the ship around in space makes the weapons system fire in random directions until you max out a skill that only does it slightly less 4. All equipment in EVE should be sold by NPC 5. Get rid of mid slots 6. Limit the size of a fleet to 16 to 32 max.
After all this is how its done in Dust. /sarcasm
For those unable to get the point, there are plenty of EVE players that would simply flip out and either a tell me to HTFU or STFU and quit trying to change their game.
Point: We dont go into EVE telling players how to play spaceship MMO and say this is how its done in Dust. Perhaps people can stop telling players who understand FPS how to balance it citing EVE as the basis for it.
Point 3 is the most pervasive, the fact im arguing with people who think RNG in shooters are an acceptable gameplay mechanic is just double facepalm worthy.
Not everything should be up for debate; its like arguing with climate change deniers who say well the jury's out since a few scientists disagree |
arimal lavaren
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
240
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Trying again huh. |
Polish Hammer
Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy
388
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Posted - 2013.05.10 01:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
arimal lavaren wrote:Trying again huh. This. |
Rhorian Darkstar
Dark Force Katana General Tso's Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
you do know this apart eve and not another generic fps. if you dont like go back to cod |
Protoman Is God
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
OP's post has been marked and reported for trolling. Awaits mods to lock this thread |
Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rhorian Darkstar wrote:you do know this apart eve and not another generic fps. if you dont like go back to cod
than why give it generic mechanics and a generic coat of paint. a generic range to almost everything. the whole patch was pretty generic attempt at balance. at this point i would kill for generic aiming but im stuck with s h i t |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
+1 OP.
This has gotten way out of control, this game can barely resemble a shooter, let alone something that someone could consider a AAA experience like the devs desire to create. Too many players who have never played an FPS before or are so despearte to liken everything in the game to EVE have lost sight of what the game is, a PVP game and one predicated around the FPS genre.
If things as sacred as accuracy of a shot out of the barrel is something up for debate and something ppl are okay applying dice rolls to then there really is no hope for this game. Its really time for the nonsense to stop. Dust =\= EVE, stop trying to force everything into this game like its a prefabbed formula. Take the best of FPS mechanics and core gameplay and add in the fun of New Eden. |
SoTa of PoP
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rather then explain how he's wrong... He gets told to go play CoD
This is why we can't have nice things around here. |
Eltra Ardell
Goonfeet
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Please do not spam the forums by reposting a locked thread. |
Rhorian Darkstar
Dark Force Katana General Tso's Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
how funny is the majority of the ppl complaining are imps. Who btw mcc camp andentire build. |
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
605
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Can we get a dislike feature? |
hooc order
Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rhorian Darkstar wrote:you do know this apart eve and not another generic fps. if you dont like go back to cod
At least in CoD i can throw grenades, not get stuck in quicksand, can aim, my hits are detected correctly, weapons can actually shoot stuff farther then 30 meters away, equipment can be switched out when you hit the right buttons, and winning is determined by skill rather then how much SP you have.
By the way i don't play CoD...If i don't play that game that actually works and has lots of features and game modes what chance do you think there is that will keep playing Dust which is broken and which only promises SOON^TM that it will have lots of features and game modes?
What chance, if it is not fixed, do you think anyone will be playing it?
DUST can be as different from COD as you want it....there are lots of broken unfun failed games in the world that look and play nothing like CoD.
Note: Original poster believes in Sky gods and thinks we have angered them by driving SUVs....but if you pay Al gore an indulgence the angry sky gods will forgive us...other then that he is right. Dust is not EvE nor should it be. |
Chimeric Destiny
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eltra Ardell wrote:Please do not spam the forums by reposting a locked thread.
Previous thread looked like it was locked because it didnt serve a point it was kind just there and didnt elaborate. Think the OP has explained his/her point perfectly this time.
You or anyone else that has tried to shout down his post by calling it spam or whatever else have yet to respond to any of his valid points.
Perhaps he is right and the only way for the point to be made is for every FPS duster to get a free EVE account and push for PVP changes EVE side to match philosophies DUST side.
I kid of course, i dont care, I dont play EVE, but i dont tell people how to play a game i have no idea about. |
Rhorian Darkstar
Dark Force Katana General Tso's Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
hooc order wrote:Rhorian Darkstar wrote:you do know this apart eve and not another generic fps. if you dont like go back to cod At least in CoD i can throw grenades, not get stuck in quicksand, can aim, my hits are detected correctly, weapons can actually shoot stuff farther then 30 meters away, equipment can be switched out when you hit the right buttons, and winning is determined by skill rather then how much SP you have. By the way i don't play CoD...If i don't play that game that actually works and has lots of features and game modes what chance do you think there is that will keep playing Dust which is broken and which only promises SOON^TM that it will have lots of features and game modes? What chance, if it is not fixed, do you think anyone will be playing it? DUST can be as different from COD as you want it....there are lots of broken unfun failed games in the world that look and play nothing like CoD. Note: Original poster believes in Sky gods and thinks we have angered them by driving SUVs....but if you pay Al gore an indulgence the angry sky gods will forgive us...other then that he is right. Dust is not EvE nor should it be. then your clear mistaken. since Dust is An extension of eve.
As far as im concern this game is fun with some minor bugs. Ive played games with freak **** ton of bugs
New vegas launch Vampire masquerade Knights of the old republic series fable Etc.....
|
The Robot Devil
BetaMax. CRONOS.
215
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Okay since we are sharing common development ideas here are some for EVE PVP 1.No autopilot 2. All weapon systems have to be manually aimed and maintained 3.Flying the ship around in space makes the weapons system fire in random directions until you max out a skill that only does it slightly less 4. All equipment in EVE should be sold by NPC 5. Get rid of mid slots 6. Limit the size of a fleet to 16 to 32 max. After all this is how its done in Dust. /sarcasm For those unable to get the point, there are plenty of EVE players that would simply flip out and either a tell me to HTFU or STFU and quit trying to change their game. Point: We dont go into EVE telling players how to play spaceship MMO and say this is how its done in Dust. Perhaps people can stop telling players who understand FPS how to balance it citing EVE as the basis for it. Point 3 is the most pervasive, the fact im arguing with people who think RNG in shooters are an acceptable gameplay mechanic is just double facepalm worthy. Not everything should be up for debate; its like arguing with climate change deniers who say well the jury's out since a few scientists disagree
This isn't EvE it is New Eden and the game has to stay within the boundaries of lore. 1. Autopilot is for carebares who don't fight often. 2. We do maintain our weapons buy deciding when to reload and with what ammo. In DUST we just press a button. 3. Tracking speed does cause our weapons to fire and miss even at the highest levels. 4. NPC market will be going away to a player driven market. 5. Equipment slots and mid slots are the same thing with different names. I don't have a counter for fleet size but 5 out of 6 isn't bad. |
Commander Dizzle
Closed For Business
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lets take a moment and remember our pressure points around the earlobs and breath in... and breath out..."woosah". Feel better? Yes? No? Doesn't matter.
Not a single person can compare Dust to another massive franchise of FPS.
Why?
BECAUSE DUST514 IS FOR ALL TENSE AND PURPOSES STILL IN BETA.
Is your mind blown?
Read it again.
How about now? |
Protoman Is God
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
172
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Commander Dizzle wrote:[e=hooc order] Rhorian Darkstar wrote:you do know this apart eve and not another generic fps. if you dont like go back to cod At least in CoD i can throw grenades, not get stuck in quicksand, can aim, my hits are detected correctly, weapons can actually shoot stuff farther then 30 meters away, equipment can be switched out when you hit the right buttons, and winning is determined by skill rather then how much SP you have. By the way i don't play CoD...If i don't play that game that actually works and has lots of features and game modes what chance do you think there is that will keep playing Dust which is broken and which only promises SOON^TM that it will have lots of features and game modes? What chance, if it is not fixed, do you think anyone will be playing it? DUST can be as different from COD as you want it....there are lots of broken unfun failed games in the world that look and play nothing like CoD. Note: Original poster believes in Sky gods and thinks we have angered them by driving SUVs....but if you pay Al gore an indulgence the angry sky gods will forgive us...other then that he is right. Dust is not EvE nor should it be.
Lets take a moment and remember our pressure points around the earlobs and breath in... and breath out..."woosah". Feel better? Yes? No? Doesn't matter.
Not a single person can compare Dust to another massive franchise of FPS.
Why?
BECAUSE DUST514 IS FOR ALL TENSE AND PURPOSES STILL IN BETA.
Is your mind blown?
Read it again.
How about now?[/quote]
Beta ends on the 14th homie |
Commander Dizzle
Closed For Business
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Protoman Is God wrote:Commander Dizzle wrote:[e=hooc order] Rhorian Darkstar wrote:you do know this apart eve and not another generic fps. if you dont like go back to cod At least in CoD i can throw grenades, not get stuck in quicksand, can aim, my hits are detected correctly, weapons can actually shoot stuff farther then 30 meters away, equipment can be switched out when you hit the right buttons, and winning is determined by skill rather then how much SP you have. By the way i don't play CoD...If i don't play that game that actually works and has lots of features and game modes what chance do you think there is that will keep playing Dust which is broken and which only promises SOON^TM that it will have lots of features and game modes? What chance, if it is not fixed, do you think anyone will be playing it? DUST can be as different from COD as you want it....there are lots of broken unfun failed games in the world that look and play nothing like CoD. Note: Original poster believes in Sky gods and thinks we have angered them by driving SUVs....but if you pay Al gore an indulgence the angry sky gods will forgive us...other then that he is right. Dust is not EvE nor should it be. Lets take a moment and remember our pressure points around the earlobs and breath in... and breath out..."woosah". Feel better? Yes? No? Doesn't matter. Not a single person can compare Dust to another massive franchise of FPS. Why? BECAUSE DUST514 IS FOR ALL TENSE AND PURPOSES STILL IN BETA. Is your mind blown? Read it again. How about now?
Beta ends on the 14th homie [/quote]
What's your point? |
The Robot Devil
BetaMax. CRONOS.
215
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Got the back hand of protoman. Sweet. |
Rhorian Darkstar
Dark Force Katana General Tso's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
ppl forget this not an FPS (like cod) but and MMOFPS. So its supposed to take for ever and pick up and win.
the skills are core feature they cannot take out. if you dont like it move on to another game |
|
Val'herik Dorn
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
520
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
I play both games. I think a certain amountnof similarity is good.
That said I agree that ranges may seem silly but they make sense in game and in lore.
Ballistic weapons should have no hard cap range (outside of you know the distance a bullet can travel before its kinetic energy is spent) but a certain range that does optimal damage.
Plasma weapons depending on type should have a hard range but do more damage at all of its ranges.
Lasers weapons should have no range but again only truly effective at certain ranges.
Missiles are missiles and have to have a range cap in regards to fuel carried but should have no optimal range as well they are missiles and will blow up the same no matter how far they travel (unless you want to account for unspent fuel)
THIS is what I like about dust the options that should exist. Not just one size fits all cod style mechanics.
On a strangely related note playing dust has made me better at cod and bf3...
|
Rhorian Darkstar
Dark Force Katana General Tso's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Val'herik Dorn wrote:I play both games. I think a certain amountnof similarity is good.
That said I agree that ranges may seem silly but they make sense in game and in lore.
Ballistic weapons should have no hard cap range (outside of you know the distance a bullet can travel before its kinetic energy is spent) but a certain range that does optimal damage.
Plasma weapons depending on type should have a hard range but do more damage at all of its ranges.
Lasers weapons should have no range but again only truly effective at certain ranges.
Missiles are missiles and have to have a range cap in regards to fuel carried but should have no optimal range as well they are missiles and will blow up the same no matter how far they travel (unless you want to account for unspent fuel)
THIS is what I like about dust the options that should exist. Not just one size fits all cod style mechanics.
On a strangely related note playing dust has made me better at cod and bf3...
I agree with this ive played eve before. and i like that dust is following lore. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
605
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Val'herik Dorn wrote:I play both games. I think a certain amountnof similarity is good.
That said I agree that ranges may seem silly but they make sense in game and in lore.
Ballistic weapons should have no hard cap range (outside of you know the distance a bullet can travel before its kinetic energy is spent) but a certain range that does optimal damage.
Plasma weapons depending on type should have a hard range but do more damage at all of its ranges.
Lasers weapons should have no range but again only truly effective at certain ranges.
Missiles are missiles and have to have a range cap in regards to fuel carried but should have no optimal range as well they are missiles and will blow up the same no matter how far they travel (unless you want to account for unspent fuel)
THIS is what I like about dust the options that should exist. Not just one size fits all cod style mechanics.
On a strangely related note playing dust has made me better at cod and bf3...
I don't play CoD and BF3, but Dust has made me better at SOCOM, Borderlands, and Counter Strike. Maybe because death matters so much here, self preservation instincts carry other to other FPS... |
NIIKIA
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
I can get behind what he is saying. Most people play eve and put it down because it is slow(my opinion) and has a learning curve the size of mt. Everest. What he is saying(I think) is dust while in the eve universe should not become just like eve, nor does he say it should a cod or any of those other games. But it should have its own identity. I felt chrome was dust514 and uprising is trying to make the game eve.
My opinion there is nothing wrong with a class taking 4 months to get decent or max on a console game. Their are 4 that's over a year then you still have vehicle and all the other cool stuff to come.
Next point most 60$ games you can beat in a day. COD, MOH, and other games like it are great but what sets dust apart is the level of depth you can have with a character. COD will never be able to capture that quality of dust. Simply making a character longer to max does change that fact it makes it a little more annoying and less exciting.
I felt the mixture of dust and eve was perfect in chrome. Fps and mmo was just right. But that's my opinion. |
hooc order
Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rhorian Darkstar wrote:ppl forget this not an FPS (like cod) but and MMOFPS. So its supposed to take for ever and pick up and win. the skills are core feature they cannot take out. if you dont like it move on to another game
they took out sharpshooter with no problems.
Didn't seem all that core to me.
Also i have played the game and i have spent no SP...game seemed to work just fine without SP.
Sure you know what Core means? |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
280
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Val'herik Dorn wrote:I play both games. I think a certain amountnof similarity is good.
That said I agree that ranges may seem silly but they make sense in game and in lore.
Ballistic weapons should have no hard cap range (outside of you know the distance a bullet can travel before its kinetic energy is spent) but a certain range that does optimal damage.
Plasma weapons depending on type should have a hard range but do more damage at all of its ranges.
Lasers weapons should have no range but again only truly effective at certain ranges.
Missiles are missiles and have to have a range cap in regards to fuel carried but should have no optimal range as well they are missiles and will blow up the same no matter how far they travel (unless you want to account for unspent fuel)
THIS is what I like about dust the options that should exist. Not just one size fits all cod style mechanics.
On a strangely related note playing dust has made me better at cod and bf3...
No disagreement on similarity, oh course it should have similarities to EVE, but EVE is the game, id rather see parralles to New Eden.
I want the game to fucntion like a FPS in a large MMO world with all the bells and whistles that come with it. The rigid ideology that Dust must be like EVE is incredibly wrong and it shouldnt be.
As i said the notion that a Random number generator is an acceptable mechanic in a shooter is the worst mechanic for a shooting game. I mean why even bother with FPS at all, simply get rid of dust swap with the PS Home game and let that decide the outcome of FW and nullsec. |
SoTa of PoP
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Are we really judging this game by MMO standards?
I'm pretty sure this is currently an RPGFPS. MMO means Massive Multiplayer - not lobby shooting.
We have all the mechanics of an RPG and FPS combined - none of the MMO. |
Rhorian Darkstar
Dark Force Katana General Tso's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 01:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Val'herik Dorn wrote:I play both games. I think a certain amountnof similarity is good.
That said I agree that ranges may seem silly but they make sense in game and in lore.
Ballistic weapons should have no hard cap range (outside of you know the distance a bullet can travel before its kinetic energy is spent) but a certain range that does optimal damage.
Plasma weapons depending on type should have a hard range but do more damage at all of its ranges.
Lasers weapons should have no range but again only truly effective at certain ranges.
Missiles are missiles and have to have a range cap in regards to fuel carried but should have no optimal range as well they are missiles and will blow up the same no matter how far they travel (unless you want to account for unspent fuel)
THIS is what I like about dust the options that should exist. Not just one size fits all cod style mechanics.
On a strangely related note playing dust has made me better at cod and bf3...
I don't play CoD and BF3, but Dust has made me better at SOCOM, Borderlands, and Counter Strike. Maybe because death matters so much here, self preservation instincts carry other to other FPS... is this aspect dust hasnt improve any thing. Arma beat this into me when dieing = walk 20 kilometer back to your squad |
The Robot Devil
BetaMax. CRONOS.
215
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage
I know TL;DR. <- Most of the problem. Read and lots of thing make more sense. |
hooc order
Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
SoTa of PoP wrote:Are we really judging this game by MMO standards?
I'm pretty sure this is currently an RPGFPS. MMO means Massive Multiplayer - not lobby shooting.
We have all the mechanics of an RPG and FPS combined - none of the MMO.
LORE!!!! LORE!!!
That and a copy paste skill/level system taken from EvE which has no place in Dust because unlike in EvE where one cannot simulate maintaining a warp core engine aiming a gun at people and taking cover from fire can be simulated. |
|
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
280
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 02:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
hooc order wrote:SoTa of PoP wrote:Are we really judging this game by MMO standards?
I'm pretty sure this is currently an RPGFPS. MMO means Massive Multiplayer - not lobby shooting.
We have all the mechanics of an RPG and FPS combined - none of the MMO. LORE!!!! LORE!!! That and a copy paste skill/level system taken from EvE which has no place in Dust because unlike in EvE where one cannot simulate maintaining a warp core engine aiming a gun at people and taking cover from fire can be simulated.
And CCP has stated enough times in the past.
gameplay>>>lore.
Man its refreshing to see im not the only one who thinks this. Good to know FPS players are still fighting to preserve the dream that is DUST. |
Kain Spero
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1389
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:05:00 -
[32] - Quote
Rhorian Darkstar wrote:you do know this apart eve and not another generic fps. if you dont like go back to cod
Dust is a part of New Eden. Eve and Dust coexist.
I've played FPS games for over 20 years and I've been playing Eve since 2005. I love Eve, but it needs to be clear as crystal that Dust is a FPS that takes place in New Eden and not an Eve fps.
Some things that are great in Eve translate really well to and FPS while there are other features that would be complete idiocy to bring into an FPS game.
|
Kain Spero
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1389
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Rhorian Darkstar wrote:ppl forget this not an FPS (like cod) but and MMOFPS. So its supposed to take for ever and pick up and win. the skills are core feature they cannot take out. if you dont like it move on to another game
I think the skill system is something that does translate well from Eve to Dust, but at the same time this "its supposed to take forever" mentality for a new player to become combat effective needs to die. That isn't even true in Eve.
In Eve there are ways for pilots to participate with the big boys on day one (swarms of Velators nuking a battleship is something that comes to mind). The fact of the matter is that Dust is a lobby shooter and you have to make it where players can become useful to their team quickly.
In my opinion the best way to go about this is to make the skill system fat and not tall. What this means is going from noob to a specific specialization should be a short journey and vets get their advantage by the variety of roles that they can fill on the battlefield: one moment an AR slayer, the next a HAV pilot, the next a scout suit stealth hacker. This variety and the tactical decisions it entails on the battlefield is on of the aspects that makes Dust unique.
The cool thing about this is that it doesn't take away from the very true fact that Dust, like Eve, does reward specialization as well. Someone who goes through and puts shallow investment in 5 different things won't be as strong filling those roles as someone who goes deeply into two. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
852
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
if you think actual EVE players want an RNG to decide if a shot hits in an FPS you are an idiot.
Dear God this IS an FPS, not point and hope.
Carebears might want it.
But no. Just...no.
the only thing I might like to see are resistances to damage types being fully utilized.
that would make a lot of balance a tactical choice rather than the devs micromanaging numbers. |
Mary Sedillo
XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S
55
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 20:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Okay since we are sharing common development ideas here are some for EVE PVP 1.No autopilot 2. All weapon systems have to be manually aimed and maintained 3.Flying the ship around in space makes the weapons system fire in random directions until you max out a skill that only does it slightly less 4. All equipment in EVE should be sold by NPC 5. Get rid of mid slots 6. Limit the size of a fleet to 16 to 32 max. After all this is how its done in Dust. /sarcasm For those unable to get the point, there are plenty of EVE players that would simply flip out and either a tell me to HTFU or STFU and quit trying to change their game. Point: We dont go into EVE telling players how to play spaceship MMO and say this is how its done in Dust. Perhaps people can stop telling players who understand FPS how to balance it citing EVE as the basis for it. Point 3 is the most pervasive, the fact im arguing with people who think RNG in shooters are an acceptable gameplay mechanic is just double facepalm worthy. Not everything should be up for debate; its like arguing with climate change deniers who say well the jury's out since a few scientists disagree
EVE's been around for 10 years and is still going strong. If we can pick up some lessons which can help make the game experience better, I am down for them. The games are different, of course, but there are definitely some good ideas which can help us out.
|
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
360
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 21:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Okay since we are sharing common development ideas here are some for EVE PVP
1.No autopilot 2. All weapon systems have to be manually aimed and maintained 3.Flying the ship around in space makes the weapons system fire in random directions until you max out a skill that only does it slightly less 4. All equipment in EVE should be sold by NPC 5. Get rid of mid slots 6. Limit the size of a fleet to 16 to 32 max.
After all this is how its done in Dust. 1. Human bodies don't have auto-pilot. 2. Human bodies don't have automated tracking computers. 3. Human bodies don't have weapon mount stabilization. 4. Now, come on, that's just a stupid point. EVE started out like that, but it evolved. Dust will do the same. 5. You mean high-slots, which are basically replaced by Weapon, Equipment and Turret slots. 6. Not FPS-related at all. If Dust 514 had open-world gameplay, such a restriction would be seen as ridiculous in it.
Now, I know you were trying to make a point, but you forget here that capsuleers aren't trying to turn Dust 514 into a spaceship game, they just want it to feel closer to the EVE universe. The whole Standard / Advanced/ Prototype thing is noticeably flawed when compared to the EVE system of Tech I /Tech II /Tech III, lore is very important to us, and a lot of the concepts in EVE could work very well in Dust if applied correctly. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
285
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:if you think actual EVE players want an RNG to decide if a shot hits in an FPS you are an idiot.
Dear God this IS an FPS, not point and hope.
Carebears might want it.
But no. Just...no.
the only thing I might like to see are resistances to damage types being fully utilized.
that would make a lot of balance a tactical choice rather than the devs micromanaging numbers.
I think heavy HMGs should have stopping power, that in a nutshell would have an immediate impact on their ability to suppress and reduce a lot of the 1v1 shenanigans where ppl simply outstrafe the heavy and dance around their bullets.
Stopping power on HMG also makes sense given the caliber of the bullets.
Thoughts? |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
285
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:
EVE's been around for 10 years and is still going strong. If we can pick up some lessons which can help make the game experience better, I am down for them. The games are different, of course, but there are definitely some good ideas which can help us out.
Not in dispute, what was in dispute were some of the core features of EVE that simply didn't translate well into a lobby shooter FPS.
A quick road to specialization is among them, New players need to feel even if they are at a disadvantage in gear they can quickly power through the initial stages of the grind and achieve balance.
A simply analysis of the posts from January to April can see a downward trend in the number of complaints about proto gear in pubs as well as the effectiveness of Heavies(an argument many called right away as player progressed because we knew what happens at the top end)..
Point is those players were able to grind out in a relatively short period of time but even then those were few in number many more were lost. Player retention is best kept in a FPS when players feel they have a chance(not a gaurantee) of getting on level footing with the vets so in the end player skill is the only determining factor.
Player skill MUST be the determining factor in all PVPs, of which FPS is a form of. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
285
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:
Now, I know you were trying to make a point, but you forget here that capsuleers aren't trying to turn Dust 514 into a spaceship game, they just want it to feel closer to the EVE universe. The whole Standard / Advanced/ Prototype thing is noticeably flawed when compared to the EVE system of Tech I /Tech II /Tech III, lore is very important to us, and a lot of the concepts in EVE could work very well in Dust if applied correctly.
I don't deny lore helps drive the game but as CCP has said before
Gameplay>>Lore.
Because you can always change the lore. I know this may drive some people up a wall but making sure the gameplay is accesible and not overly restricting is important.
As for Lore to me the greatest lore in New Eden is the lore we create ourselves. Dust/EVE is real and the actions we take are chronicled in the history of the game. That is the best aspect of the game, im sure many here who wanted to save the Titan during the Caldari prime event know this better than I.
These are the moments i live for in this game, and the more FPS players we can bring to the game the more things like this we can see become reality.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UdOM8s8C_vHIHuLIPYzNlEp3WyUOjjiWey9R9FgJfS0/edit |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:28:00 -
[40] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Gameplay>>Lore. Good lore is better than bad gameplay. |
|
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
288
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Gameplay>>Lore. Good lore is better than bad gameplay.
gameplay matters more after all thats what we are playing, a game. The metaphysical and everything comes after that because if the game isnt fun to play than the lore never gets advanced. |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
364
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Gameplay>>Lore. Good lore is better than bad gameplay. gameplay matters more after all thats what we are playing, a game. The metaphysical and everything comes after that because if the game isnt fun to play than the lore never gets advanced. Still doesn't change the facts. Good lore is better than bad gameplay. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
288
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Gameplay>>Lore. Good lore is better than bad gameplay. gameplay matters more after all thats what we are playing, a game. The metaphysical and everything comes after that because if the game isnt fun to play than the lore never gets advanced. Still doesn't change the facts. Good lore is better than bad gameplay.
agree to disagree, but it really isnt |
Negris Albedo
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 22:59:00 -
[44] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Gameplay>>Lore. Good lore is better than bad gameplay. gameplay matters more after all thats what we are playing, a game. The metaphysical and everything comes after that because if the game isnt fun to play than the lore never gets advanced. Still doesn't change the facts. Good lore is better than bad gameplay. agree to disagree, but it really isnt I'd rather read a great book about a game than play an awful game. Wouldn't you? |
Don Von Hulio
Not Guilty EoN.
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:08:00 -
[45] - Quote
DUST should just function within EVE with its own rule set. So pretty much the diections the game is going is the best direction.
I hate seeing a worthwhile thread thats about balancing a game, then a veteran EvE player comes in an fucks it all up because something within the game isnt "Lore friendly". And most of the time its something trivial that they have just gotten used to and really doesnt even count as "Lore".
If they dont have anything beneficial to say or have input on stats and using EvE as a stencil.... they just need to be sit in the corner, be quiet, and speak when spoken to. |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
EVE does many things right that Dust does not.
Tech levels, for example.
Dust has a linear progression system.
Standard is decent. Advanced is good. Prototype is great.
They are all basically the same, except the higher you go, the more versatile it becomes.
Now take EVE's system.
Tech I is the standard-level, and can successfully perform a variety of roles. Navy is basically souped up Tech I, but isn't really all that more versatile. Tech II is excellent, but is specialized and thus not as versatile. This is an important part of its design! |
Don Von Hulio
Not Guilty EoN.
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 23:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:EVE does many things right that Dust does not.
Tech levels, for example.
Dust has a linear progression system.
Standard is decent. Advanced is good. Prototype is great.
They are all basically the same, except the higher you go, the more versatile it becomes.
Now take EVE's system.
Tech I is the standard-level, and can successfully perform a variety of roles. Navy is basically souped up Tech I, but isn't really all that more versatile. Tech II is excellent, but is specialized and thus not as versatile. This is an important part of its design!
DUST isnt even to that stage yet, and CCP has commented on having tech levels. So if you just stick to program, follow the announcements, actually play the game like an FPS, and benefit your team by not dieing. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
297
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
Negris Albedo wrote: I'd rather read a great book about a game than play an awful game. Wouldn't you?
No i wouldnt. Instead id prefer a great game where im the one writing the story. Thats a book(tv show ) Id want to read/watch. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
297
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:19:00 -
[49] - Quote
Some Dev diaries on Dust definitely worth a look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=229TTSGeRKI&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkestS-CzAs&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 00:50:00 -
[50] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Negris Albedo wrote: I'd rather read a great book about a game than play an awful game. Wouldn't you?
No i wouldnt. You just admitted you would want to play an awful game. Therefore, why should I take you seriously? |
|
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
305
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Negris Albedo wrote: I'd rather read a great book about a game than play an awful game. Wouldn't you?
No i wouldnt. You just admitted you would want to play an awful game. Therefore, why should I take you seriously? And the dev diaries you linked. I've already watched them. They have nothing to do with this thread. They are differentiating Dust 514 from other FPSs, not Dust 514 from EVE.
Actually it discusses how it contrasts to EVE as well and why they went FPS instead of RTS or some other type of game genre.
And thats some creative editing, i expanded on far more than saying that id play a awful game over reading about a good one. Here let me link it back for you.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=784902#post784902
As to their relation to this thread they have plenty to do with it, this is a discussion on gameplay philosophy and the hardline stance many take on EVE gameplay and game philosophies being rigidly adhered to in Dust as many have come into threads proclaiming, especially in regards to core gameplay design and philosophy.
The example given was a sarcastic response on what the situation would look like were the shoe on the other foot.
Hope that clears up any confusion. |
Jaqen Morghalis
Abandoned Privilege
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:43:00 -
[52] - Quote
If I want to read a great story, I'd read a book, not put on a video game.
On the other hand, if I want to play a fun game, I won't read a book.
Dumb comparison.
A game with no lore, but good gameplay, will still be fun to play, but a crappy game, with good lore, will still be a crappy game, and no fun to play. No amount of "lore" will make up for poor gameplay.
When it comes to games, gameplay > lore.
When it comes to books, lore > gameplay.
Dust is not a book. |
|
CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
1641
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 11:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Moving from Feedback & Requests to General Discussions. |
|
Chimeric Destiny
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:09:00 -
[54] - Quote
Id rather play a game that is fun then something that is overly dedicated to lore at the detriment of good gameplay. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
889
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 14:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote: If things as sacred as accuracy of a shot out of the barrel is something up for debate and something ppl are okay applying dice rolls to then there really is no hope for this game. Its really time for the nonsense to stop.
RL applies "dice rolls" to the accuracy of a shot out of the barrel.
Thus, I'm fine with the game doing it.
Yes, I agree, it's time for the "FPS games must make me feel like a GOD!" nonsense to stop.
Again, COD is that way -> |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
352
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote: If things as sacred as accuracy of a shot out of the barrel is something up for debate and something ppl are okay applying dice rolls to then there really is no hope for this game. Its really time for the nonsense to stop.
RL applies "dice rolls" to the accuracy of a shot out of the barrel. Thus, I'm fine with the game doing it. Yes, I agree, it's time for the "FPS games must make me feel like a GOD!" nonsense to stop. Again, COD is that way ->
Fail for using RL as justification
If thats the case a single bullet to your head or a triple tap and you are dead too so lets add that
Funny you fall back on the COD fanboi troll, id toss that out if i were a carebear that cant actually refute any of the OP. Too bad i hate COD and play KZ, Socom, MAG, Counter Strike, and more strafe shooters dating back for nearly 3 decades.
Failharder with your sad posts. |
Crash Monster
Snipers Anonymous
257
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
I value all your well considered opinions... (hahahahaha).
How many times do we have to have the same f'ing argument about which genre everyone personally feels the game belongs in and why feature X should be left out and feature Y put in.
Pedantic nitwits.
Edit: I forgot... self aggrandizing.
Pedantic self aggrandizing nitwits. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Unclaimed.
518
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Okay since we are sharing common development ideas here are some for EVE PVP
1.No autopilot 2. All weapon systems have to be manually aimed and maintained 3.Flying the ship around in space makes the weapons system fire in random directions until you max out a skill that only does it slightly less 4. All equipment in EVE should be sold by NPC 5. Get rid of mid slots 6. Limit the size of a fleet to 16 to 32 max.
After all this is how its done in Dust. /sarcasm
For those unable to get the point, there are plenty of EVE players that would simply flip out and either a tell me to HTFU or STFU and quit trying to change their game.
Point: We dont go into EVE telling players how to play spaceship MMO and say this is how its done in Dust. Perhaps people can stop telling players who understand FPS how to balance it citing EVE as the basis for it.
Point 3 is the most pervasive, the fact im arguing with people who think RNG in shooters are an acceptable gameplay mechanic is just double facepalm worthy.
Not everything should be up for debate. There are some things that are considered universal truths. While im always open to rigorous debate, creating a fun game that people want to login and play because the gameplay is fun isn't.
Good gameplay is the engine of FPS and as people advance in their careers they will advance the metagame in turn and the lore it will create will be the result of a large sample of players acting to exert their skills/influence to have a hand in shaping the next decade of New Eden. I just realized what you really want to be: a priest.
A priest of mmofps design handing down the word of fps gods to clueless peasants like me.
Good luck with that.
Bro. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
445
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 23:59:00 -
[59] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote: 1.No autopilot 2. All weapon systems have to be manually aimed and maintained 3.Flying the ship around in space makes the weapons system fire in random directions until you max out a skill that only does it slightly less 4. All equipment in EVE should be sold by NPC 5. Get rid of mid slots 6. Limit the size of a fleet to 16 to 32 max.
Right, I'll ignore the sarcasm and just respond to these posts.
1. No autopilot? Autopilot's used for carting a ship 40+ jumps. That ****'s boring. Not to mention modern planes have autopilot. 2. Seeing how modern jets have targeting systems, I can't see why spaceships can't. 3. Technically, there are skills which do that. 4. Um, eventually DUST equipment will be created and sold by players. Except for the BPO's. 5. Highs are, technically, equipment and weapon slots. They couldn't allow heavies to run around with both a forge gun and an AR, so they limited it. Medium slots are the equivalent of high slots on dropsuits.
Even if you didn't play Eve and only ever played shooters, you'd be able to see these points.
Now, I haven't seen EVE players suggest FPS mechanics, such as aiming, shooting, balance tweaks, etc. They have, however, commented on the modules and any lore-based change they may want to see, e.g. racial dropsuits, role bonuses, weapon bonuses, etc. The only people I've ever seen say "tweak the basic mechanics" have then followed it up by saying "it's not as fun as MAG/CoD/BF3". Now, not saying that it's not a valid point, but that most people who do suggest basic gameplay tweaks are those who have extensive FPS playing experience. That doesn't exclude any Eve experience, by the way. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
445
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 00:02:00 -
[60] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote: Funny you fall back on the COD fanboi troll, id toss that out if i were a carebear that cant actually refute any of the OP. Too bad i hate COD and play KZ, Socom, MAG, Counter Strike, and more strafe shooters dating back for nearly 3 decades.
3 decades? I didn't realise we were in 2030 already. |
|
Delta 749
Maverick Security Consulting
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:21:00 -
[61] - Quote
Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"
They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
873
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:43:00 -
[62] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"
They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want What are you talking about? I've been playing FPS since Doom95 and my RPG background dates back to pen-and-paper Shadowrun. There's a lot of disconnect between combining competitive FPS gameplay with an RPG character customizing system and there's a lot of butthurt and epeen on both ends. Both sides need to stop pointing fingers and deal with the fact that CCP isn't going to fully cater to either side's preference no matter how much opposing sides want it to. There's never going to be a middle ground between both genre that both sides are going to fully agree, but we both need to embrace what the other side has to offer. How many FPS out there actually allow you to fully customize your character to your specific preferences in play style like Dust 514 allows you to? And how many MMORPG actually have a multiplayer experience this intense? Both genre have something to offer to reinforce the weaknesses of the other and I think CCP is doing a pretty good job of finding that middle ground. Having Dust 514 as a modern FPS with a placebo spread sheet doesn't accomplish anything and turning it into a MUD isn't going to either for the sake of having a large playerbase. We're all going to have to accept that we can't have our way and play nicely, shooting each other in the face 5-20 minutes at a time between spreadsheets. |
Delta 749
Maverick Security Consulting
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 01:51:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"
They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want What are you talking about? I've been playing FPS since Doom95 and my RPG background dates back to pen-and-paper Shadowrun. There's a lot of disconnect between combining competitive FPS gameplay with an RPG character customizing system and there's a lot of butthurt and epeen on both ends. Both sides need to stop pointing fingers and deal with the fact that CCP isn't going to fully cater to either side's preference no matter how much opposing sides want it to. There's never going to be a middle ground between both genre that both sides are going to fully agree, but we both need to embrace what the other side has to offer. How many FPS out there actually allow you to fully customize your character to your specific preferences in play style like Dust 514 allows you to? And how many MMORPG actually have a multiplayer experience this intense? Both genre have something to offer to reinforce the weaknesses of the other and I think CCP is doing a pretty good job of finding that middle ground. Having Dust 514 as a modern FPS with a placebo spread sheet doesn't accomplish anything and turning it into a MUD isn't going to either for the sake of having a large playerbase. We're all going to have to accept that we can't have our way and play nicely, shooting each other in the face 5-20 minutes at a time between spreadsheets.
Ugh, I absolutely hate having to use it as an example but CoD does allow you to customize and and advance your character through the perk system and perks can even have their effectiveness increased through gameplay, and weapon selection and add ons add another little layer of customization MGO also had a nice robust skill system where skills increased through use and not point spending but that was third and not first person Ive said this in other threads and Ill say it again here, skill system can work in FPS games if they are well implemented but what we have now is not well implemented mostly due to CCP courting the EVE fanboys to much Hell Ive seen some of them go on about how they bought a PS3 solely for this game and solely because CCP made it, and you do not listen to overly devoted brown nosers like that |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
877
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:16:00 -
[64] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"
They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want What are you talking about? I've been playing FPS since Doom95 and my RPG background dates back to pen-and-paper Shadowrun. There's a lot of disconnect between combining competitive FPS gameplay with an RPG character customizing system and there's a lot of butthurt and epeen on both ends. Both sides need to stop pointing fingers and deal with the fact that CCP isn't going to fully cater to either side's preference no matter how much opposing sides want it to. There's never going to be a middle ground between both genre that both sides are going to fully agree, but we both need to embrace what the other side has to offer. How many FPS out there actually allow you to fully customize your character to your specific preferences in play style like Dust 514 allows you to? And how many MMORPG actually have a multiplayer experience this intense? Both genre have something to offer to reinforce the weaknesses of the other and I think CCP is doing a pretty good job of finding that middle ground. Having Dust 514 as a modern FPS with a placebo spread sheet doesn't accomplish anything and turning it into a MUD isn't going to either for the sake of having a large playerbase. We're all going to have to accept that we can't have our way and play nicely, shooting each other in the face 5-20 minutes at a time between spreadsheets. Ugh, I absolutely hate having to use it as an example but CoD does allow you to customize and and advance your character through the perk system and perks can even have their effectiveness increased through gameplay, and weapon selection and add ons add another little layer of customization MGO also had a nice robust skill system where skills increased through use and not point spending but that was third and not first person Ive said this in other threads and Ill say it again here, skill system can work in FPS games if they are well implemented but what we have now is not well implemented mostly due to CCP courting the EVE fanboys to much Hell Ive seen some of them go on about how they bought a PS3 solely for this game and solely because CCP made it, and you do not listen to overly devoted brown nosers like that You're still looking from the FPS point of view. Broaden your views a bit more man. Think less CoD and a bit more D&D. This isn't an FPS that happens to have a little character building or an RPG that has a bit of FPS combat. There's a lot of metagaming and counter play you don't see in any FPS, especially in CoD. The ratio here is about 50/50 and you have to accept that. The MMORPG crowd are going to have to accept that more SP =/= "I win" too. What a lot of people from both sides overlook is balancing for skill. FPS players with a good gun game can customize their character to play to those strengths by fitting to gank while doing more with less SP/ISK and the game is balanced enough for the MMORPG crowd can accomplish just as much with more SP/ISK. And that's without even bringing in the rock, paper, scissors balance cyclic metagame involving EM, shield, kinetics, armor, hybrid that goes on too. A lot of QQing on here from the MMORPG gamers is the people stacking damage mods and playing like it's CoD, but that's working as intended. And a lot of FPS players QQ about weapon/suit class being OP, especially when its their effective counter or they use the same FPS run and gun tactics, but again, that's working as intended too. I blame a lot of this on CCP's lack of making extensive tutorials one of their higher priorities so everyone from both sides understand how these combined game mechanics work, and instead resort to trying to cater to whatever side holds down the shift key harder when they type on the forums to voice their discontent. If they don't do it, I guess I'll have to since everyone on both sides are busy engaging in this **** measuring contest on here. Not directed at you personally, just both playerbases as a whole. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
429
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:25:00 -
[65] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"
They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want What are you talking about? I've been playing FPS since Doom95 and my RPG background dates back to pen-and-paper Shadowrun. There's a lot of disconnect between combining competitive FPS gameplay with an RPG character customizing system and there's a lot of butthurt and epeen on both ends. Both sides need to stop pointing fingers and deal with the fact that CCP isn't going to fully cater to either side's preference no matter how much opposing sides want it to. There's never going to be a middle ground between both genre that both sides are going to fully agree, but we both need to embrace what the other side has to offer. How many FPS out there actually allow you to fully customize your character to your specific preferences in play style like Dust 514 allows you to? And how many MMORPG actually have a multiplayer experience this intense? Both genre have something to offer to reinforce the weaknesses of the other and I think CCP is doing a pretty good job of finding that middle ground. Having Dust 514 as a modern FPS with a placebo spread sheet doesn't accomplish anything and turning it into a MUD isn't going to either for the sake of having a large playerbase. We're all going to have to accept that we can't have our way and play nicely, shooting each other in the face 5-20 minutes at a time between spreadsheets. Ugh, I absolutely hate having to use it as an example but CoD does allow you to customize and and advance your character through the perk system and perks can even have their effectiveness increased through gameplay, and weapon selection and add ons add another little layer of customization MGO also had a nice robust skill system where skills increased through use and not point spending but that was third and not first person Ive said this in other threads and Ill say it again here, skill system can work in FPS games if they are well implemented but what we have now is not well implemented mostly due to CCP courting the EVE fanboys to much Hell Ive seen some of them go on about how they bought a PS3 solely for this game and solely because CCP made it, and you do not listen to overly devoted brown nosers like that
What makes you think your opinion is worth any more than someone who bought a PS3 for Dust? Your overinflated sense of self worth isn't any different than what I see often on the EVE forums. |
Delta 749
Maverick Security Consulting
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:28:00 -
[66] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"
They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want What are you talking about? I've been playing FPS since Doom95 and my RPG background dates back to pen-and-paper Shadowrun. There's a lot of disconnect between combining competitive FPS gameplay with an RPG character customizing system and there's a lot of butthurt and epeen on both ends. Both sides need to stop pointing fingers and deal with the fact that CCP isn't going to fully cater to either side's preference no matter how much opposing sides want it to. There's never going to be a middle ground between both genre that both sides are going to fully agree, but we both need to embrace what the other side has to offer. How many FPS out there actually allow you to fully customize your character to your specific preferences in play style like Dust 514 allows you to? And how many MMORPG actually have a multiplayer experience this intense? Both genre have something to offer to reinforce the weaknesses of the other and I think CCP is doing a pretty good job of finding that middle ground. Having Dust 514 as a modern FPS with a placebo spread sheet doesn't accomplish anything and turning it into a MUD isn't going to either for the sake of having a large playerbase. We're all going to have to accept that we can't have our way and play nicely, shooting each other in the face 5-20 minutes at a time between spreadsheets. Ugh, I absolutely hate having to use it as an example but CoD does allow you to customize and and advance your character through the perk system and perks can even have their effectiveness increased through gameplay, and weapon selection and add ons add another little layer of customization MGO also had a nice robust skill system where skills increased through use and not point spending but that was third and not first person Ive said this in other threads and Ill say it again here, skill system can work in FPS games if they are well implemented but what we have now is not well implemented mostly due to CCP courting the EVE fanboys to much Hell Ive seen some of them go on about how they bought a PS3 solely for this game and solely because CCP made it, and you do not listen to overly devoted brown nosers like that You're still looking from the FPS point of view. Broaden your views a bit more man. Think less CoD and a bit more D&D. This isn't an FPS that happens to have a little character building or an RPG that has a bit of FPS combat. There's a lot of metagaming and counter play you don't see in any FPS, especially in CoD. The ratio here is about 50/50 and you have to accept that. The MMORPG crowd are going to have to accept that more SP =/= "I win" too. What a lot of people from both sides overlook is balancing for skill. FPS players with a good gun game can customize their character to play to those strengths by fitting to gank while doing more with less SP/ISK and the game is balanced enough for the MMORPG crowd can accomplish just as much with more SP/ISK. And that's without even bringing in the rock, paper, scissors balance cyclic metagame involving EM, shield, kinetics, armor, hybrid that goes on too. A lot of QQing on here from the MMORPG gamers is the people stacking damage mods and playing like it's CoD, but that's working as intended. And a lot of FPS players QQ about weapon/suit class being OP, especially when its their effective counter or they use the same FPS run and gun tactics, but again, that's working as intended too. I blame a lot of this on CCP's lack of making extensive tutorials one of their higher priorities so everyone from both sides understand how these combined game mechanics work, and instead resort to trying to cater to whatever side holds down the shift key harder when they type on the forums to voice their discontent. If they don't do it, I guess I'll have to since everyone on both sides are busy engaging in this **** measuring contest on here. Not directed at you personally, just both playerbases as a whole.
How am I supposed to not focus on what the primary gameplay should be? You can have a perfectly fine and deep experience by starting with the FPS mechanics and then building a skill system to fit them, lots of other games do this and it works well The problem is CCP took the skill system first and are trying to build the FPS mechanics around it and the skill system is not compatible with this game genre, its full of dead zones and SP sinks Now if they are truly dedicated to it which all signs point to them being then the system needs several nodes pruned off and costs drastically reduced The common argument against that is "You should invest time to be good at something" which is all well and good for an RPG but not an action game, being good at something here is based on actual game playing experience
Someone I saw around here said the system needs to be wide and not deep and he was spot on
As for OP suits and skills and what have you seeing someone running full proto doesnt bother me to much unless I get the drop on them, empty a clip from a GEK into their back and they still somehow survive and manage to get me while Im reloading And FYI to anyone reading that guy was a heavy so stop crying about how heavies die too quickly |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
880
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:47:00 -
[67] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:
How am I supposed to not focus on what the primary gameplay should be? You can have a perfectly fine and deep experience by starting with the FPS mechanics and then building a skill system to fit them, lots of other games do this and it works well The problem is CCP took the skill system first and are trying to build the FPS mechanics around it and the skill system is not compatible with this game genre, its full of dead zones and SP sinks Now if they are truly dedicated to it which all signs point to them being then the system needs several nodes pruned off and costs drastically reduced The common argument against that is "You should invest time to be good at something" which is all well and good for an RPG but not an action game, being good at something here is based on actual game playing experience
Someone I saw around here said the system needs to be wide and not deep and he was spot on
As for OP suits and skills and what have you seeing someone running full proto doesnt bother me to much unless I get the drop on them, empty a clip from a GEK into their back and they still somehow survive and manage to get me while Im reloading And FYI to anyone reading that guy was a heavy so stop crying about how heavies die too quickly
I agree with you on the SP sinks, some of those skill prerequisites were a bit too steep. ~3.5 million just to get back into my logi suit was highway robbery for the time I invested into this game. Unless they're laying the groundwork I suspect they're laying out, the shouldn't stay silent about it. But they did say they were going to address the issue.
Also, I'm with you on how the game is designed at the core. You can tell that CCP is inexperienced with console, let alone FPS designing, but that's why we have beta. They've been in the game designing business for 10 years and they know their **** even if it sometimes doesn't seem like it. (refer to hacked AV grenades selling for ISK instead of AUR) The main culprit right now is the sheer lack of content. This game looks incomplete right now, but EVE online or any MMORPG in general start with bare bones in content and build on.
Dust 514 is designed for the long run and after about a year, it won't even look like the same damn game anymore. There will be so much to do that you won't even have time to look at your character sheet with stuff that'll make planetary conquest and factional warfare look like a Manus Peak ambush in comparison, just gotta be pationt. I'll bet you 1,000,000 AUR on that. There's a lot of issues since they're hell bent on releasing on that cute 5/14 date, but at least we got dedicated servers, right?
And FYI about the heavy. You probably would have killed him faster if you used an SMG since they have a damage bonus against armor. (That's the MMORPG side factoring in) |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
880
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:51:00 -
[68] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:What makes you think your opinion is worth any more than someone who bought a PS3 for Dust? Your overinflated sense of self worth isn't any different than what I see often on the EVE forums. Personally, I don't give a flying **** what people think about me. Anyone who knows me IRL can attest to that. But I want to spread information that CCP seems despondent enough to withhold from both sides of our community just so they can render individual blades of grass. |
fred orpaul
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
281
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:08:00 -
[69] - Quote
MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:+1 OP.
This has gotten way out of control, this game can barely resemble a shooter, let alone something that someone could consider a AAA experience like the devs desire to create. Too many players who have never played an FPS before or are so despearte to liken everything in the game to EVE have lost sight of what the game is, a PVP game and one predicated around the FPS genre.
If things as sacred as accuracy of a shot out of the barrel is something up for debate and something ppl are okay applying dice rolls to then there really is no hope for this game. Its really time for the nonsense to stop. Dust =\= EVE, stop trying to force everything into this game like its a prefabbed formula. Take the best of FPS mechanics and core gameplay and add in the fun of New Eden.
AHAHAHAHAHA tell me what shooters have you played, tell me all of them, I ******* god damn guarantee I have played more shooters then you and know a **** load more what makes a good shooter. Yet here I ******* stand asking for Actual roles on the battle field asking that things be more eve like why?? Because I've played every other kind of shooter imaginable and this is the first one in years that hasn't been absolute boring crap or the tenth iteration of the same ******* game(sorry UT I love you but the only reason to play you any more is the mod community). Dust has actual potential but not by dumbing it down to the point that every fight is the same as the last, which is where its been heading and exactly where the eve community is trying to keep it from. As to using a RNG to determine where a bullet is going you realize that any game worth a damn has some mixture of kick/dispersion on its weapons and uses RNGs to figure out where the bullets are going with in that accuracy.
Now that said dust is having problems with becoming a AAA quality shooter but that has more to do with not knowing what type of shooter it is(that and having a vision that is hard to squeeze onto the PS3). The biggest problem I see is that the devs instinctively know that the game can't be a twitch shooter to work as intended, but don't want to, are not able, or just don't know to, go the path of quake and UT. Frankley I'm a little concerned dust has gone into release and has not settled into what kind of shooter it wants to be, and while this is not always a bad thing , dust straddles a unique piece of hell, that has so far proven to make for a very uncomfortable gameplay, and is a nightmare to balance. Still I'm hoping that dust will find its place. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
881
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:15:00 -
[70] - Quote
fred orpaul wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:+1 OP.
This has gotten way out of control, this game can barely resemble a shooter, let alone something that someone could consider a AAA experience like the devs desire to create. Too many players who have never played an FPS before or are so despearte to liken everything in the game to EVE have lost sight of what the game is, a PVP game and one predicated around the FPS genre.
If things as sacred as accuracy of a shot out of the barrel is something up for debate and something ppl are okay applying dice rolls to then there really is no hope for this game. Its really time for the nonsense to stop. Dust =\= EVE, stop trying to force everything into this game like its a prefabbed formula. Take the best of FPS mechanics and core gameplay and add in the fun of New Eden. AHAHAHAHAHA tell me what shooters have you played, tell me all of them, I ******* god damn guarantee I have played more shooters then you and know a **** load more what makes a good shooter. Yet here I ******* stand asking for Actual roles on the battle field asking that things be more eve like why?? Because I've played every other kind of shooter imaginable and this is the first one in years that hasn't been absolute boring crap or the tenth iteration of the same ******* game(sorry UT I love you but the only reason to play you any more is the mod community). Dust has actual potential but not by dumbing it down to the point that every fight is the same as the last, which is where its been heading and exactly where the eve community is trying to keep it from. As to using a RNG to determine where a bullet is going you realize that any game worth a damn has some mixture of kick/dispersion on its weapons and uses RNGs to figure out where the bullets are going with in that accuracy. Now that said dust is having problems with becoming a AAA quality shooter but that has more to do with not knowing what type of shooter it is(that and having a vision that is hard to squeeze onto the PS3). The biggest problem I see is that the devs instinctively know that the game can't be a twitch shooter to work as intended, but don't want to, are not able, or just don't know to, go the path of quake and UT. Frankley I'm a little concerned dust has gone into release and has not settled into what kind of shooter it wants to be, and while this is not always a bad thing , dust straddles a unique piece of hell, that has so far proven to make for a very uncomfortable gameplay, and is a nightmare to balance. Still I'm hoping that dust will find its place. +1 This is why half of the community got pissed when they went from twitch in Chrome to more Strafe in uprising. That's like playing BLOPS2 and half way through it turns into Borderlands. If they balance the goddamned weapons so everything wasn't nerfed to novelty in DPS compared to the AR and bring them up to at least competitive levels, we could at least get to AA before the next build. The AR should be one of the best weapons in the game, but not the best because everything got watered down. (refer to HMG double nerf) |
|
Delta 749
Maverick Security Consulting
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:22:00 -
[71] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:
How am I supposed to not focus on what the primary gameplay should be? You can have a perfectly fine and deep experience by starting with the FPS mechanics and then building a skill system to fit them, lots of other games do this and it works well The problem is CCP took the skill system first and are trying to build the FPS mechanics around it and the skill system is not compatible with this game genre, its full of dead zones and SP sinks Now if they are truly dedicated to it which all signs point to them being then the system needs several nodes pruned off and costs drastically reduced The common argument against that is "You should invest time to be good at something" which is all well and good for an RPG but not an action game, being good at something here is based on actual game playing experience
Someone I saw around here said the system needs to be wide and not deep and he was spot on
As for OP suits and skills and what have you seeing someone running full proto doesnt bother me to much unless I get the drop on them, empty a clip from a GEK into their back and they still somehow survive and manage to get me while Im reloading And FYI to anyone reading that guy was a heavy so stop crying about how heavies die too quickly
I agree with you on the SP sinks, some of those skill prerequisites were a bit too steep. ~3.5 million just to get back into my logi suit was highway robbery for the time I invested into this game. Unless they're laying the groundwork I suspect they're laying out, the shouldn't stay silent about it. But they did say they were going to address the issue. Also, I'm with you on how the game is designed at the core. You can tell that CCP is inexperienced with console, let alone FPS designing, but that's why we have beta. They've been in the game designing business for 10 years and they know their **** even if it sometimes doesn't seem like it. (refer to hacked AV grenades selling for ISK instead of AUR) The main culprit right now is the sheer lack of content. This game looks incomplete right now, but EVE online or any MMORPG in general start with bare bones in content and build on. Dust 514 is designed for the long run and after about a year, it won't even look like the same damn game anymore. There will be so much to do that you won't even have time to look at your character sheet with stuff that'll make planetary conquest and factional warfare look like a Manus Peak ambush in comparison, just gotta be pationt. I'll bet you 1,000,000 AUR on that. There's a lot of issues since they're hell bent on releasing on that cute 5/14 date, but at least we got dedicated servers, right? And FYI about the heavy. You probably would have killed him faster if you used an SMG since they have a damage bonus against armor. (Less CoD and a bit more D&D factoring in )
True but I dont think any class should be able to take an entire clip from a primary weapon, a simple 1.5 or maybe 2X bonus to back attacks would sort all that out though |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
356
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:26:00 -
[72] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:
|
Delta 749
Maverick Security Consulting
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:27:00 -
[73] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"
They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want What are you talking about? I've been playing FPS since Doom95 and my RPG background dates back to pen-and-paper Shadowrun. There's a lot of disconnect between combining competitive FPS gameplay with an RPG character customizing system and there's a lot of butthurt and epeen on both ends. Both sides need to stop pointing fingers and deal with the fact that CCP isn't going to fully cater to either side's preference no matter how much opposing sides want it to. There's never going to be a middle ground between both genre that both sides are going to fully agree, but we both need to embrace what the other side has to offer. How many FPS out there actually allow you to fully customize your character to your specific preferences in play style like Dust 514 allows you to? And how many MMORPG actually have a multiplayer experience this intense? Both genre have something to offer to reinforce the weaknesses of the other and I think CCP is doing a pretty good job of finding that middle ground. Having Dust 514 as a modern FPS with a placebo spread sheet doesn't accomplish anything and turning it into a MUD isn't going to either for the sake of having a large playerbase. We're all going to have to accept that we can't have our way and play nicely, shooting each other in the face 5-20 minutes at a time between spreadsheets. Ugh, I absolutely hate having to use it as an example but CoD does allow you to customize and and advance your character through the perk system and perks can even have their effectiveness increased through gameplay, and weapon selection and add ons add another little layer of customization MGO also had a nice robust skill system where skills increased through use and not point spending but that was third and not first person Ive said this in other threads and Ill say it again here, skill system can work in FPS games if they are well implemented but what we have now is not well implemented mostly due to CCP courting the EVE fanboys to much Hell Ive seen some of them go on about how they bought a PS3 solely for this game and solely because CCP made it, and you do not listen to overly devoted brown nosers like that What makes you think your opinion is worth any more than someone who bought a PS3 for Dust? Your overinflated sense of self worth isn't any different than what I see often on the EVE forums.
Because Im coming at this from the viewpoint of an unbiased consumer, not someone thats dropped a few hundred dollars and needs to convince themselves that money wasnt a waste Would I like to see this game do well? Of course, more good games is always a plus, but Im not going to let that blind me to the state of the game |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
881
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:41:00 -
[74] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:True but I dont think any class should be able to take an entire clip from a primary weapon, a simple 1.5 or maybe 2X bonus to back attacks would sort all that out though Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure SMGs have a better headshot bonus than an AR and there are bonuses to back attacks already implemented. If you're ever need to know about it, ADS on different body parts on a teammate when you're waiting for an LAV to be dropped at the beginning of a match or something. Some of the suff they "forget" to tell us and focus on making the female scouts' contours look good under dynamic lighting. Back to the heavy though, the key term is counter play. By design, heavies are supposed to be... well... heavy and were first intended to be meat shields capable of going toe-to-toe with vehicles, or leading a push into choke points and mow **** down with their HMG. In a way, they're almost the effective counter to assaults. But, just because they're your counter, that doesn't mean that they're an "I win button." What they do however, is create meaningful choices on how you want to handle the obstacle in your way other than trying to face them head on. Sneaking up on him was one of those choices, ducking behind cover and drawing his fire until a teammate can flank him is another since their turn radius while firing is as slow as molasses, or regrouping with the rest of your squad to focus your fire is another, or you could have put cover between you and him and engaged outside his optimal range since your AR out ranges his HMG by ~20m. Because there's a game mechanic, in this case the heavy makes you have to change your strategy while the heavy is enjoying the boon of extra survivability at the cost of speed, it creates a more engaging experience than the typical run and gun that a lot of modern FPS players are used to. But unfortunately, a lot of players aren't used to this sort of thing and cry nerf, because there's no goddamned tutorial, and to retain their playerbase CCP has to swing the nerf bat. And coming from an EVE player of 5 years, when they swing the nerf bat, they aim low and you get stuck with a permanent limp. So when you come across something different and die to it the same time over and over again, ask yourself: "Is this my effective counter? What weaknesses does this game mechanic have that I can exploit?" and try different stuff out. A little less CoD and more D&D. |
Delta 749
Maverick Security Consulting
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 03:59:00 -
[75] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:True but I dont think any class should be able to take an entire clip from a primary weapon, a simple 1.5 or maybe 2X bonus to back attacks would sort all that out though Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure SMGs have a better headshot bonus than an AR and there are bonuses to back attacks already implemented. If you're ever need to know about it, ADS on different body parts on a teammate when you're waiting for an LAV to be dropped at the beginning of a match or something. Some of the suff they "forget" to tell us and focus on making the female scouts' contours look good under dynamic lighting. Back to the heavy though, the key term is counter play. By design, heavies are supposed to be... well... heavy and were first intended to be meat shields capable of going toe-to-toe with vehicles, or leading a push into choke points and mow **** down with their HMG. In a way, they're almost the effective counter to assaults. But, just because they're your counter, that doesn't mean that they're an "I win button." What they do however, is create meaningful choices on how you want to handle the obstacle in your way other than trying to face them head on. Sneaking up on him was one of those choices, ducking behind cover and drawing his fire until a teammate can flank him is another since their turn radius while firing is as slow as molasses, or regrouping with the rest of your squad to focus your fire is another, or you could have put cover between you and him and engaged outside his optimal range since your AR out ranges his HMG by ~20m. Because there's a game mechanic, in this case the heavy makes you have to change your strategy while the heavy is enjoying the boon of extra survivability at the cost of speed, it creates a more engaging experience than the typical run and gun that a lot of modern FPS players are used to. But unfortunately, a lot of players aren't used to this sort of thing and cry nerf, because there's no goddamned tutorial, and to retain their playerbase CCP has to swing the nerf bat. And coming from an EVE player of 5 years, when they swing the nerf bat, they aim low and you get stuck with a permanent limp. So when you come across something different and die to it the same time over and over again, ask yourself: "Is this my effective counter? What weaknesses does this game mechanic have that I can exploit?" and try different stuff out. A little less CoD and more D&D.
Let me lay out the entire situation for you since a lot of what you are talking about is stuff I did My play style usually has me creeping along walls and corners to get the drop on someone, I did this near an objective away from the front line and found a heavy picking his nose so I approach from behind and at about 25m I open fire and empty a clip into his back, keep my distance while trying to reload and get gunned down since by now hes managed to turn around and open fire Now from this scenario you can observe one of two things That A that enough gear and SP can overcompensate for actual playing skill and keep someone alive even in a situation where the enemy is playing smart and you are caught unaware Or B that the game is just mechanically broken and even having the enemy square in your sights is no real indicator of whether you will hit them or not
Now to me both of those options are unacceptable, if I were being a dumb Rambo and charging this guy head on my dying would have been perfectly acceptable and completely my fault but thats not the case
Oh, one last bit thats not for you but for anyone that feels like piping in, I was using a GEK not a militia rifle which makes the situation all the more unreasonable |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
884
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote: Let me lay out the entire situation for you since a lot of what you are talking about is stuff I did My play style usually has me creeping along walls and corners to get the drop on someone, I did this near an objective away from the front line and found a heavy picking his nose so I approach from behind and at about 25m I open fire and empty a clip into his back, keep my distance while trying to reload and get gunned down since by now hes managed to turn around and open fire Now from this scenario you can observe one of two things That A that enough gear and SP can overcompensate for actual playing skill and keep someone alive even in a situation where the enemy is playing smart and you are caught unaware Or B that the game is just mechanically broken and even having the enemy square in your sights is no real indicator of whether you will hit them or not
Now to me both of those options are unacceptable, if I were being a dumb Rambo and charging this guy head on my dying would have been perfectly acceptable and completely my fault but thats not the case
Oh, one last bit thats not for you but for anyone that feels like piping in, I was using a GEK not a militia rifle which makes the situation all the more unreasonable
First off, was this before or after the blanket 10% damage all weapons got a few days ago. Shields and armor got a huge ass buff since uprising and everyone had trouble killing each other. Second, what was your fit? Racial suit, tier, fitting, shield mods, damage mods... AR proficiency level... etc... etc... there's a lot to factor in, even down to a few seconds of combat when statistics like these give either side a tactical advantage. If you had a few stacked damage mods, you could have probably dropped him. If he had a plate equipped, it could have delayed your effort too. Also, if you were at 25m, that's his optimal range and he had an advantage there too. SP and gear matter to a degree, but as far as SP goes, you have to specialize to get the benefits, good gear helps make you marginally better, but if you look at the stats on weapons for instance, the difference between a MLT AR and a GEK-38 is only a couple points. From what you've told me so far, he did have the advantage in this encounter because of the class game and the range game. SP is never a substitute for player skill because at the end of the day, you still have to aim.... just a little further away from a heavy's optimal range.
CPM, CCP, If you're reading this. This is why we need a tutorial. It's not my job to teach people how to play your game. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
884
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
If you think **** like this is complicated, wait until we get EWAR modules.
In b4 "stasis webifiers are OP!" |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
430
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:28:00 -
[78] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"
They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want What are you talking about? I've been playing FPS since Doom95 and my RPG background dates back to pen-and-paper Shadowrun. There's a lot of disconnect between combining competitive FPS gameplay with an RPG character customizing system and there's a lot of butthurt and epeen on both ends. Both sides need to stop pointing fingers and deal with the fact that CCP isn't going to fully cater to either side's preference no matter how much opposing sides want it to. There's never going to be a middle ground between both genre that both sides are going to fully agree, but we both need to embrace what the other side has to offer. How many FPS out there actually allow you to fully customize your character to your specific preferences in play style like Dust 514 allows you to? And how many MMORPG actually have a multiplayer experience this intense? Both genre have something to offer to reinforce the weaknesses of the other and I think CCP is doing a pretty good job of finding that middle ground. Having Dust 514 as a modern FPS with a placebo spread sheet doesn't accomplish anything and turning it into a MUD isn't going to either for the sake of having a large playerbase. We're all going to have to accept that we can't have our way and play nicely, shooting each other in the face 5-20 minutes at a time between spreadsheets. Ugh, I absolutely hate having to use it as an example but CoD does allow you to customize and and advance your character through the perk system and perks can even have their effectiveness increased through gameplay, and weapon selection and add ons add another little layer of customization MGO also had a nice robust skill system where skills increased through use and not point spending but that was third and not first person Ive said this in other threads and Ill say it again here, skill system can work in FPS games if they are well implemented but what we have now is not well implemented mostly due to CCP courting the EVE fanboys to much Hell Ive seen some of them go on about how they bought a PS3 solely for this game and solely because CCP made it, and you do not listen to overly devoted brown nosers like that What makes you think your opinion is worth any more than someone who bought a PS3 for Dust? Your overinflated sense of self worth isn't any different than what I see often on the EVE forums. Because Im coming at this from the viewpoint of an unbiased consumer, not someone thats dropped a few hundred dollars and needs to convince themselves that money wasnt a waste Would I like to see this game do well? Of course, more good games is always a plus, but Im not going to let that blind me to the state of the game
You know, just playing Devil's Advocate here, but I kinda think, from a business standpoint, that CCP should cater to those who pay, right?
Otherwise they go out of business.
All this talk of reducing the SP costs, etc. make me kinda laugh. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organization
2290
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:38:00 -
[79] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Point: We dont go into EVE telling players how to play spaceship MMO and say this is how its done in Dust. Perhaps people can stop telling players who understand FPS how to balance it citing EVE as the basis for it.
Well, you can't really blame Eve players for doing that. Remember one important thing: Dust players are encroaching into the 10-year-old harsh world of New Eden. A world that Eve players created with their own blood, sweat and tears. As a result, they have developed a very strong bond with the New Eden they created and thus feel threatened by this encroachment of console players into the world they created and perfected. So it's only natural that they try to maintain certain play styles that stay true to the core of New Eden.
Adapt or Die. Don't use what you can't afford to lose. Scamming is legit. etc. etc.
But you are correct that Eve players shouldn't be telling console players how to play.
Here is something that players on both sides of the fence have to remember. New Eden is an entirely different world. Eve Online is not like any other MMO out there. There is no other MMO with an equally strong economy and such a dynamic and living culture that is so strong we even took meta gaming to a whole new level. Dust is also a game like no other in which we will one day have the same luxuries if we work together hard enough for it. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
886
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:45:00 -
[80] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Point: We dont go into EVE telling players how to play spaceship MMO and say this is how its done in Dust. Perhaps people can stop telling players who understand FPS how to balance it citing EVE as the basis for it. Well, you can't really blame Eve players for doing that. Remember one important thing: Dust players are encroaching into the 10-year-old harsh world of New Eden. A world that Eve players created with their own blood, sweat and tears. As a result, they have developed a very strong bond with the New Eden they created and thus feel threatened by this encroachment of console players into the world they created and perfected. So it's only natural that they try to maintain certain play styles that stay true to the core of New Eden. Adapt or Die. Don't use what you can't afford to lose. Scamming is legit. etc. etc. But you are correct that Eve players shouldn't be telling console players how to play. Here is something that players on both sides of the fence have to remember. New Eden is an entirely different world. Eve Online is not like any other MMO out there. There is no other MMO with an equally strong economy and such a dynamic and living culture that is so strong we even took meta gaming to a whole new level. Dust is also a game like no other in which we will one day have the same luxuries if we work together hard enough for it. And amending to this, FPS players shouldn't be telling EVE players how to play Dust 514. It's not a full FPS or a full MMORPG, it's an MMOFPS and combining genres is serious business. EVE players need to step up their gun game and FPS players need to learn the meta game if either side wants to actually play to your strengths. CCP has for the most part done a good job drawing the line in the sand on both genre and instead of one side arguing that the other has to play by their rules, we all play by CCP's rules, because they're the ones who have the final say on how this game is made. |
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grreen mctree
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
@Cosgar
Would you kindly point out the mmo part of dust? I see a pure lobby shooter.
|
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organization
2291
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 05:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
grreen mctree wrote:@Cosgar
Would you kindly point out the mmo part of dust? I see a pure lobby shooter.
The MMO part is in the making. You'll just have to wait just like we always have. Hell, we Eve players have been waiting for the damn door to open since 2011. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
887
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 05:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:grreen mctree wrote:@Cosgar
Would you kindly point out the mmo part of dust? I see a pure lobby shooter.
The MMO part is in the making. You'll just have to wait just like we always have. Hell, we Eve players have been waiting for the damn door to open since 2011. ^Stepped out for a cigarette and he beat me too it. |
grreen mctree
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 05:46:00 -
[84] - Quote
In other words it is not an mmo? lol eve players lol
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Delta 749
Maverick Security Consulting
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 05:52:00 -
[85] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote: Let me lay out the entire situation for you since a lot of what you are talking about is stuff I did My play style usually has me creeping along walls and corners to get the drop on someone, I did this near an objective away from the front line and found a heavy picking his nose so I approach from behind and at about 25m I open fire and empty a clip into his back, keep my distance while trying to reload and get gunned down since by now hes managed to turn around and open fire Now from this scenario you can observe one of two things That A that enough gear and SP can overcompensate for actual playing skill and keep someone alive even in a situation where the enemy is playing smart and you are caught unaware Or B that the game is just mechanically broken and even having the enemy square in your sights is no real indicator of whether you will hit them or not
Now to me both of those options are unacceptable, if I were being a dumb Rambo and charging this guy head on my dying would have been perfectly acceptable and completely my fault but thats not the case
Oh, one last bit thats not for you but for anyone that feels like piping in, I was using a GEK not a militia rifle which makes the situation all the more unreasonable
First off, was this before or after the blanket 10% damage all weapons got a few days ago. Shields and armor got a huge ass buff since uprising and everyone had trouble killing each other. Second, what was your fit? Racial suit, tier, fitting, shield mods, damage mods... AR proficiency level... etc... etc... there's a lot to factor in, even down to a few seconds of combat when statistics like these give either side a tactical advantage. If you had a few stacked damage mods, you could have probably dropped him. If he had a plate equipped, it could have delayed your effort too. Also, if you were at 25m, that's his optimal range and he had an advantage there too. SP and gear matter to a degree, but as far as SP goes, you have to specialize to get the benefits, good gear helps make you marginally better, but if you look at the stats on weapons for instance, the difference between a MLT AR and a GEK-38 is only a couple points. From what you've told me so far, he did have the advantage in this encounter because of the class game and the range game. SP is never a substitute for player skill because at the end of the day, you still have to aim.... just a little further away from a heavy's optimal range. CPM, CCP, If you're reading this. This is why we need a tutorial. It's not my job to teach people how to play your game.
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
899
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:34:00 -
[86] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote: Let me lay out the entire situation for you since a lot of what you are talking about is stuff I did My play style usually has me creeping along walls and corners to get the drop on someone, I did this near an objective away from the front line and found a heavy picking his nose so I approach from behind and at about 25m I open fire and empty a clip into his back, keep my distance while trying to reload and get gunned down since by now hes managed to turn around and open fire Now from this scenario you can observe one of two things That A that enough gear and SP can overcompensate for actual playing skill and keep someone alive even in a situation where the enemy is playing smart and you are caught unaware Or B that the game is just mechanically broken and even having the enemy square in your sights is no real indicator of whether you will hit them or not
Now to me both of those options are unacceptable, if I were being a dumb Rambo and charging this guy head on my dying would have been perfectly acceptable and completely my fault but thats not the case
Oh, one last bit thats not for you but for anyone that feels like piping in, I was using a GEK not a militia rifle which makes the situation all the more unreasonable
First off, was this before or after the blanket 10% damage all weapons got a few days ago. Shields and armor got a huge ass buff since uprising and everyone had trouble killing each other. Second, what was your fit? Racial suit, tier, fitting, shield mods, damage mods... AR proficiency level... etc... etc... there's a lot to factor in, even down to a few seconds of combat when statistics like these give either side a tactical advantage. If you had a few stacked damage mods, you could have probably dropped him. If he had a plate equipped, it could have delayed your effort too. Also, if you were at 25m, that's his optimal range and he had an advantage there too. SP and gear matter to a degree, but as far as SP goes, you have to specialize to get the benefits, good gear helps make you marginally better, but if you look at the stats on weapons for instance, the difference between a MLT AR and a GEK-38 is only a couple points. From what you've told me so far, he did have the advantage in this encounter because of the class game and the range game. SP is never a substitute for player skill because at the end of the day, you still have to aim.... just a little further away from a heavy's optimal range. CPM, CCP, If you're reading this. This is why we need a tutorial. It's not my job to teach people how to play your game. Edit: Bah, forum ate the post and put up nothing Going to drastically cut down what I said but the difference between militia and gek is more than a point and a half of damage, its also clip size From my math a full clip from the Gek factoring the blanket bonus, bonus from the 3 basic weapon damage mods I was using at the time, and the 90% effectiveness against armor I get 2000 points of damage and thats if he was only wearing armor obviously it changes when you factor in his shields but Im feeling lazy for that Now like I said before this shows that A the skill and gear system is compensating to much to keep crappy players alive or B the games mechanics are broken in a way that we cant even be sure if keeping an unmoving enemy in our sights and unloading on them will kill them or not and both of those things are unacceptable And since you want to keep bringing up DnD its like rolling a 20 on a sneak attack against a goblin standing around scratching his ass but dying when he somehow manages to survive Oh one final thing thats somewhat related but weapon change speed really needs to be adjusted so switching to certain weapons is faster based on size IE changing from a rifle to a pistol is faster than changing from a pistol to a rifle Also also feel free to correct my math if I was wrong
Yeah, at this point it could've just been server latency screwing up... again. Seems like all the bugs from previous builds are coming back to haunt us. Might have been a sentinel too.
As far as the D&D goes, you should always have a flail to catch them flatfooted and get a temporary THACO bonus. (depending what edition, mind you.)
You think changing weapons is bad, gotten picked up by any logis lately? I spend more time fighting the radial than I do fighting the enemy. I'm thinking it's input latency. |
Delta 749
Maverick Security Consulting
76
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:36:00 -
[87] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Delta 749 wrote: Let me lay out the entire situation for you since a lot of what you are talking about is stuff I did My play style usually has me creeping along walls and corners to get the drop on someone, I did this near an objective away from the front line and found a heavy picking his nose so I approach from behind and at about 25m I open fire and empty a clip into his back, keep my distance while trying to reload and get gunned down since by now hes managed to turn around and open fire Now from this scenario you can observe one of two things That A that enough gear and SP can overcompensate for actual playing skill and keep someone alive even in a situation where the enemy is playing smart and you are caught unaware Or B that the game is just mechanically broken and even having the enemy square in your sights is no real indicator of whether you will hit them or not
Now to me both of those options are unacceptable, if I were being a dumb Rambo and charging this guy head on my dying would have been perfectly acceptable and completely my fault but thats not the case
Oh, one last bit thats not for you but for anyone that feels like piping in, I was using a GEK not a militia rifle which makes the situation all the more unreasonable
First off, was this before or after the blanket 10% damage all weapons got a few days ago. Shields and armor got a huge ass buff since uprising and everyone had trouble killing each other. Second, what was your fit? Racial suit, tier, fitting, shield mods, damage mods... AR proficiency level... etc... etc... there's a lot to factor in, even down to a few seconds of combat when statistics like these give either side a tactical advantage. If you had a few stacked damage mods, you could have probably dropped him. If he had a plate equipped, it could have delayed your effort too. Also, if you were at 25m, that's his optimal range and he had an advantage there too. SP and gear matter to a degree, but as far as SP goes, you have to specialize to get the benefits, good gear helps make you marginally better, but if you look at the stats on weapons for instance, the difference between a MLT AR and a GEK-38 is only a couple points. From what you've told me so far, he did have the advantage in this encounter because of the class game and the range game. SP is never a substitute for player skill because at the end of the day, you still have to aim.... just a little further away from a heavy's optimal range. CPM, CCP, If you're reading this. This is why we need a tutorial. It's not my job to teach people how to play your game. Edit: Bah, forum ate the post and put up nothing Going to drastically cut down what I said but the difference between militia and gek is more than a point and a half of damage, its also clip size From my math a full clip from the Gek factoring the blanket bonus, bonus from the 3 basic weapon damage mods I was using at the time, and the 90% effectiveness against armor I get 2000 points of damage and thats if he was only wearing armor obviously it changes when you factor in his shields but Im feeling lazy for that Now like I said before this shows that A the skill and gear system is compensating to much to keep crappy players alive or B the games mechanics are broken in a way that we cant even be sure if keeping an unmoving enemy in our sights and unloading on them will kill them or not and both of those things are unacceptable And since you want to keep bringing up DnD its like rolling a 20 on a sneak attack against a goblin standing around scratching his ass but dying when he somehow manages to survive Oh one final thing thats somewhat related but weapon change speed really needs to be adjusted so switching to certain weapons is faster based on size IE changing from a rifle to a pistol is faster than changing from a pistol to a rifle Also also feel free to correct my math if I was wrong Yeah, at this point it could've just been server latency screwing up... again. Seems like all the bugs from previous builds are coming back to haunt us. Might have been a sentinel too. As far as the D&D goes, you should always have a flail to catch them flatfooted and get a temporary THACO bonus. (depending what edition, mind you.) You think changing weapons is bad, gotten picked up by any logis lately? I spend more time fighting the radial than I do fighting the enemy. I'm thinking it's input latency.
Yeah, I have to hold the stick in the direction of the item I want and keep holding it while the radial closes if I want to set a nanohive or uplink, it used to work as intended in the old build and I dont know how they borked it up |
2-Ton Twenty-One
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
525
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 08:59:00 -
[88] - Quote
Negris Albedo wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote: Good lore is better than bad gameplay.
gameplay matters more after all thats what we are playing, a game. The metaphysical and everything comes after that because if the game isnt fun to play than the lore never gets advanced. Still doesn't change the facts. Good lore is better than bad gameplay. agree to disagree, but it really isnt I'd rather read a great book about a game than play an awful game. Wouldn't you?
Then how about you go read a book. I don't play a game to read a book. I play a game to play a dam game, so gameplay is king. Just like i don't have sex to listen to your moms stupid work problems, I do it because of that thing she does with her mouth.
No one sits there reading a book and says "hey this is a great read but this books gameplay sucks" If a fps cant stand up on its gameplay it wont stand at all. That is tried and true. Some other genres can get away with that but not a fps.
No fps survives unless its gameplay is solid.
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
987
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 11:51:00 -
[89] - Quote
[quote=2-Ton Twenty-One No fps survives unless its gameplay is solid.[/quote] Since day one, CoD still has host server issues, caters to spawn camping, and shameless boosting. How many games are in the series now? |
The Robot Devil
BetaMax. CRONOS.
251
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 12:14:00 -
[90] - Quote
All games have these same problems some just hide it better. |
|
Jaron Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 12:16:00 -
[91] - Quote
DUST isn't EVE. |
Jaron Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 12:16:00 -
[92] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:2-Ton Twenty-One wrote: No fps survives unless its gameplay is solid.
Since day one, CoD still has host server issues, caters to spawn camping, and shameless boosting. How many games are in the series now?
Games?
I thought they were all just map packs... |
RuckingFetard
Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
95
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 12:23:00 -
[93] - Quote
Jaron Pollard wrote:DUST isn't EVE. Congratulations! You just opened a can of worms! |
Ion Crush
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 12:37:00 -
[94] - Quote
You guys are so silly. Just so silly. |
Cpt Murd0ck
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
180
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 12:47:00 -
[95] - Quote
Jaron Pollard wrote:DUST isn't EVE.
EVE: DUST 514
read the title next time mate |
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