Its really a damn shame that you go making valid points and all the EVE fanboys can say is "Durr hurr go back to CoD"

They should have just made this all spreadsheets and have battles autoplay with no player input since it seems thats what they want

What are you talking about? I've been playing FPS since Doom95 and my RPG background dates back to pen-and-paper Shadowrun. There's a lot of disconnect between combining competitive FPS gameplay with an RPG character customizing system and there's a lot of butthurt and epeen on both ends. Both sides need to stop pointing fingers and deal with the fact that CCP isn't going to fully cater to either side's preference no matter how much opposing sides want it to.
There's never going to be a middle ground between both genre that both sides are going to fully agree, but we both need to embrace what the other side has to offer. How many FPS out there actually allow you to fully customize your character to your specific preferences in play style like Dust 514 allows you to? And how many MMORPG actually have a multiplayer experience this intense? Both genre have something to offer to reinforce the weaknesses of the other and I think CCP is doing a pretty good job of finding that middle ground. Having Dust 514 as a modern FPS with a placebo spread sheet doesn't accomplish anything and turning it into a MUD isn't going to either for the sake of having a large playerbase. We're all going to have to accept that we can't have our way and play nicely, shooting each other in the face 5-20 minutes at a time between spreadsheets.

Ugh, I absolutely hate having to use it as an example but CoD does allow you to customize and and advance your character through the perk system and perks can even have their effectiveness increased through gameplay, and weapon selection and add ons add another little layer of customization
MGO also had a nice robust skill system where skills increased through use and not point spending but that was third and not first person
Ive said this in other threads and Ill say it again here, skill system can work in FPS games if they are well implemented but what we have now is not well implemented mostly due to CCP courting the EVE fanboys to much
Hell Ive seen some of them go on about how they bought a PS3 solely for this game and solely because CCP made it, and you do not listen to overly devoted brown nosers like that

Ugh, I absolutely hate having to use it as an example but CoD does allow you to customize and and advance your character through the perk system and perks can even have their effectiveness increased through gameplay, and weapon selection and add ons add another little layer of customization
MGO also had a nice robust skill system where skills increased through use and not point spending but that was third and not first person
Ive said this in other threads and Ill say it again here, skill system can work in FPS games if they are well implemented but what we have now is not well implemented mostly due to CCP courting the EVE fanboys to much
Hell Ive seen some of them go on about how they bought a PS3 solely for this game and solely because CCP made it, and you do not listen to overly devoted brown nosers like that

You're still looking from the FPS point of view. Broaden your views a bit more man. Think less CoD and a bit more D&D. This isn't an FPS that happens to have a little character building or an RPG that has a bit of FPS combat. There's a lot of metagaming and counter play you don't see in any FPS, especially in CoD. The ratio here is about 50/50 and you have to accept that. The MMORPG crowd are going to have to accept that more SP =/= "I win" too. What a lot of people from both sides overlook is balancing for skill. FPS players with a good gun game can customize their character to play to those strengths by fitting to gank while doing more with less SP/ISK and the game is balanced enough for the MMORPG crowd can accomplish just as much with more SP/ISK. And that's without even bringing in the rock, paper, scissors balance cyclic metagame involving EM, shield, kinetics, armor, hybrid that goes on too.
A lot of QQing on here from the MMORPG gamers is the people stacking damage mods and playing like it's CoD, but that's working as intended. And a lot of FPS players QQ about weapon/suit class being OP, especially when its their effective counter or they use the same FPS run and gun tactics, but again, that's working as intended too. I blame a lot of this on CCP's lack of making extensive tutorials one of their higher priorities so everyone from both sides understand how these combined game mechanics work, and instead resort to trying to cater to whatever side holds down the shift key harder when they type on the forums to voice their discontent. If they don't do it, I guess I'll have to since everyone on both sides are busy engaging in this **** measuring contest on here. Not directed at you personally, just both playerbases as a whole.

How am I supposed to not focus on what the primary gameplay should be?
You can have a perfectly fine and deep experience by starting with the FPS mechanics and then building a skill system to fit them, lots of other games do this and it works well
The problem is CCP took the skill system first and are trying to build the FPS mechanics around it and the skill system is not compatible with this game genre, its full of dead zones and SP sinks
Now if they are truly dedicated to it which all signs point to them being then the system needs several nodes pruned off and costs drastically reduced
The common argument against that is "You should invest time to be good at something" which is all well and good for an RPG but not an action game, being good at something here is based on actual game playing experience

Someone I saw around here said the system needs to be wide and not deep and he was spot on

As for OP suits and skills and what have you seeing someone running full proto doesnt bother me to much unless I get the drop on them, empty a clip from a GEK into their back and they still somehow survive and manage to get me while Im reloading
And FYI to anyone reading that guy was a heavy so stop crying about how heavies die too quickly

What makes you think your opinion is worth any more than someone who bought a PS3 for Dust? Your overinflated sense of self worth isn't any different than what I see often on the EVE forums.

+1 OP.

This has gotten way out of control, this game can barely resemble a shooter, let alone something that someone could consider a AAA experience like the devs desire to create.
Too many players who have never played an FPS before or are so despearte to liken everything in the game to EVE have lost sight of what the game is, a PVP game and one predicated around the FPS genre.


If things as sacred as accuracy of a shot out of the barrel is something up for debate and something ppl are okay applying dice rolls to then there really is no hope for this game. Its really time for the nonsense to stop.
Dust =\= EVE, stop trying to force everything into this game like its a prefabbed formula. Take the best of FPS mechanics and core gameplay and add in the fun of New Eden.

AHAHAHAHAHA tell me what shooters have you played, tell me all of them, I ******* god damn guarantee I have played more shooters then you and know a **** load more what makes a good shooter. Yet here I ******* stand asking for Actual roles on the battle field asking that things be more eve like why?? Because I've played every other kind of shooter imaginable and this is the first one in years that hasn't been absolute boring crap or the tenth iteration of the same ******* game(sorry UT I love you but the only reason to play you any more is the mod community). Dust has actual potential but not by dumbing it down to the point that every fight is the same as the last, which is where its been heading and exactly where the eve community is trying to keep it from. As to using a RNG to determine where a bullet is going you realize that any game worth a damn has some mixture of kick/dispersion on its weapons and uses RNGs to figure out where the bullets are going with in that accuracy.

Now that said dust is having problems with becoming a AAA quality shooter but that has more to do with not knowing what type of shooter it is(that and having a vision that is hard to squeeze onto the PS3). The biggest problem I see is that the devs instinctively know that the game can't be a twitch shooter to work as intended, but don't want to, are not able, or just don't know to, go the path of quake and UT. Frankley I'm a little concerned dust has gone into release and has not settled into what kind of shooter it wants to be, and while this is not always a bad thing , dust straddles a unique piece of hell, that has so far proven to make for a very uncomfortable gameplay, and is a nightmare to balance. Still I'm hoping that dust will find its place.

I agree with you on the SP sinks, some of those skill prerequisites were a bit too steep. ~3.5 million just to get back into my logi suit was highway robbery for the time I invested into this game. Unless they're laying the groundwork I suspect they're laying out, the shouldn't stay silent about it. But they did say they were going to address the issue.

Also, I'm with you on how the game is designed at the core. You can tell that CCP is inexperienced with console, let alone FPS designing, but that's why we have beta. They've been in the game designing business for 10 years and they know their **** even if it sometimes doesn't seem like it. (refer to hacked AV grenades selling for ISK instead of AUR) The main culprit right now is the sheer lack of content. This game looks incomplete right now, but EVE online or any MMORPG in general start with bare bones in content and build on.

Dust 514 is designed for the long run and after about a year, it won't even look like the same damn game anymore. There will be so much to do that you won't even have time to look at your character sheet with stuff that'll make planetary conquest and factional warfare look like a Manus Peak ambush in comparison, just gotta be pationt. I'll bet you 1,000,000 AUR on that. There's a lot of issues since they're hell bent on releasing on that cute 5/14 date, but at least we got dedicated servers, right?

And FYI about the heavy. You probably would have killed him faster if you used an SMG since they have a damage bonus against armor. (Less CoD and a bit more D&D factoring in)

Some Dev diaries on Dust definitely worth a look


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=229TTSGeRKI&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkestS-CzAs&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F

What makes you think your opinion is worth any more than someone who bought a PS3 for Dust? Your overinflated sense of self worth isn't any different than what I see often on the EVE forums.

True but I dont think any class should be able to take an entire clip from a primary weapon, a simple 1.5 or maybe 2X bonus to back attacks would sort all that out though

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure SMGs have a better headshot bonus than an AR and there are bonuses to back attacks already implemented. If you're ever need to know about it, ADS on different body parts on a teammate when you're waiting for an LAV to be dropped at the beginning of a match or something. Some of the suff they "forget" to tell us and focus on making the female scouts' contours look good under dynamic lighting.
Back to the heavy though, the key term is counter play. By design, heavies are supposed to be... well... heavy and were first intended to be meat shields capable of going toe-to-toe with vehicles, or leading a push into choke points and mow **** down with their HMG. In a way, they're almost the effective counter to assaults. But, just because they're your counter, that doesn't mean that they're an "I win button." What they do however, is create meaningful choices on how you want to handle the obstacle in your way other than trying to face them head on. Sneaking up on him was one of those choices, ducking behind cover and drawing his fire until a teammate can flank him is another since their turn radius while firing is as slow as molasses, or regrouping with the rest of your squad to focus your fire is another, or you could have put cover between you and him and engaged outside his optimal range since your AR out ranges his HMG by ~20m.
Because there's a game mechanic, in this case the heavy makes you have to change your strategy while the heavy is enjoying the boon of extra survivability at the cost of speed, it creates a more engaging experience than the typical run and gun that a lot of modern FPS players are used to. But unfortunately, a lot of players aren't used to this sort of thing and cry nerf, because there's no goddamned tutorial, and to retain their playerbase CCP has to swing the nerf bat. And coming from an EVE player of 5 years, when they swing the nerf bat, they aim low and you get stuck with a permanent limp. So when you come across something different and die to it the same time over and over again, ask yourself: "Is this my effective counter? What weaknesses does this game mechanic have that I can exploit?" and try different stuff out. A little less CoD and more D&D.

Let me lay out the entire situation for you since a lot of what you are talking about is stuff I did
My play style usually has me creeping along walls and corners to get the drop on someone, I did this near an objective away from the front line and found a heavy picking his nose so I approach from behind and at about 25m I open fire and empty a clip into his back, keep my distance while trying to reload and get gunned down since by now hes managed to turn around and open fire
Now from this scenario you can observe one of two things
That A that enough gear and SP can overcompensate for actual playing skill and keep someone alive even in a situation where the enemy is playing smart and you are caught unaware
Or B that the game is just mechanically broken and even having the enemy square in your sights is no real indicator of whether you will hit them or not

Now to me both of those options are unacceptable, if I were being a dumb Rambo and charging this guy head on my dying would have been perfectly acceptable and completely my fault but thats not the case


Oh, one last bit thats not for you but for anyone that feels like piping in, I was using a GEK not a militia rifle which makes the situation all the more unreasonable

Because Im coming at this from the viewpoint of an unbiased consumer, not someone thats dropped a few hundred dollars and needs to convince themselves that money wasnt a waste
Would I like to see this game do well? Of course, more good games is always a plus, but Im not going to let that blind me to the state of the game

Point: We dont go into EVE telling players how to play spaceship MMO and say this is how its done in Dust. Perhaps people can stop telling players who understand FPS how to balance it citing EVE as the basis for it.

Well, you can't really blame Eve players for doing that. Remember one important thing: Dust players are encroaching into the 10-year-old harsh world of New Eden. A world that Eve players created with their own blood, sweat and tears. As a result, they have developed a very strong bond with the New Eden they created and thus feel threatened by this encroachment of console players into the world they created and perfected. So it's only natural that they try to maintain certain play styles that stay true to the core of New Eden.

Adapt or Die.
Don't use what you can't afford to lose.
Scamming is legit.
etc.
etc.

But you are correct that Eve players shouldn't be telling console players how to play.

Here is something that players on both sides of the fence have to remember. New Eden is an entirely different world. Eve Online is not like any other MMO out there. There is no other MMO with an equally strong economy and such a dynamic and living culture that is so strong we even took meta gaming to a whole new level. Dust is also a game like no other in which we will one day have the same luxuries if we work together hard enough for it.

@Cosgar

Would you kindly point out the mmo part of dust? I see a pure lobby shooter.

The MMO part is in the making. You'll just have to wait just like we always have. Hell, we Eve players have been waiting for the damn door to open since 2011.

First off, was this before or after the blanket 10% damage all weapons got a few days ago. Shields and armor got a huge ass buff since uprising and everyone had trouble killing each other. Second, what was your fit? Racial suit, tier, fitting, shield mods, damage mods... AR proficiency level... etc... etc... there's a lot to factor in, even down to a few seconds of combat when statistics like these give either side a tactical advantage. If you had a few stacked damage mods, you could have probably dropped him. If he had a plate equipped, it could have delayed your effort too. Also, if you were at 25m, that's his optimal range and he had an advantage there too. SP and gear matter to a degree, but as far as SP goes, you have to specialize to get the benefits, good gear helps make you marginally better, but if you look at the stats on weapons for instance, the difference between a MLT AR and a GEK-38 is only a couple points. From what you've told me so far, he did have the advantage in this encounter because of the class game and the range game. SP is never a substitute for player skill because at the end of the day, you still have to aim.... just a little further away from a heavy's optimal range.

CPM, CCP, If you're reading this. This is why we need a tutorial. It's not my job to teach people how to play your game.

Edit: Bah, forum ate the post and put up nothing

Going to drastically cut down what I said but the difference between militia and gek is more than a point and a half of damage, its also clip size
From my math a full clip from the Gek factoring the blanket bonus, bonus from the 3 basic weapon damage mods I was using at the time, and the 90% effectiveness against armor I get 2000 points of damage and thats if he was only wearing armor obviously it changes when you factor in his shields but Im feeling lazy for that

Now like I said before this shows that A the skill and gear system is compensating to much to keep crappy players alive or B the games mechanics are broken in a way that we cant even be sure if keeping an unmoving enemy in our sights and unloading on them will kill them or not and both of those things are unacceptable

And since you want to keep bringing up DnD its like rolling a 20 on a sneak attack against a goblin standing around scratching his ass but dying when he somehow manages to survive


Oh one final thing thats somewhat related but weapon change speed really needs to be adjusted so switching to certain weapons is faster based on size IE changing from a rifle to a pistol is faster than changing from a pistol to a rifle

Also also feel free to correct my math if I was wrong

Yeah, at this point it could've just been server latency screwing up... again. Seems like all the bugs from previous builds are coming back to haunt us. Might have been a sentinel too.

As far as the D&D goes, you should always have a flail to catch them flatfooted and get a temporary THACO bonus. (depending what edition, mind you.)

You think changing weapons is bad, gotten picked up by any logis lately? I spend more time fighting the radial than I do fighting the enemy. I'm thinking it's input latency.

I'd rather read a great book about a game than play an awful game. Wouldn't you?