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RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
60
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Posted - 2013.03.02 19:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:Ive had militia shotguns one-shot through ~400 HP non-headshot, and it wasnt even too long after reset so skills likely werent that great. How long I dont remember, but it was shortly after I was able to achieve 400 HP. So however long it takes to get assault type II and enhanced extenders (first things I went for).
So onto the subject of how to make them more balanced since I dont feel a militia shotgun should one-shot a HP modified suit, is at the very least the lower tiers need some sort of damage or pellet reduction. A militia shotgun, I feel, should be able to one-shot any assault suit that has no HP modification. A type-II assault with 2 enhanced extenders should not be able to be one-shotted, however, it should still have only ~25-50 or so HP left after one hit. Whatever level of damage that is I feel the lower tiers should be at. Which maybe a pellet reduction would be better and the higher in tiers you go the more pellets you get and damage either stays the same or slightly increases similar to ARs. Pretty sure militia is stronger than specialist( I'll have to check ), I 1-shot plenty of people using specialist, so no, nerfing their damage won't do much. Simply don't let them get that close. I also like how you assume that even though you were able to get 400 HP, other people couldn't invest in damage. You can get weaponry level 4 at minimum with starter SP. Edit: Nevermind, specialist is 36 per pellet, as is militia and basic.
I like how you assume that I dont assume people have weaponry 5. I stand by my statements with weaponry 5 in place. Thats also why I say it should leave you with ~25-50 HP in a type-II. That way if they actually fit damage mods they can still one shot it, as it should be. The actual assumption I was making is that they didnt have the SP for fitting requirements, and range, and operations, and speed mods, and etc. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
299
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Posted - 2013.03.02 19:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
RECON BY FIRE wrote:
I like how you assume that I dont assume people have weaponry 5. I stand by my statements with weaponry 5 in place. Thats also why I say it should leave you with ~25-50 HP in a type-II. That way if they actually fit damage mods they can still one shot it, as it should be. The actual assumption I was making is that they didnt have the SP for fitting requirements, and range, and operations, and speed mods, and etc.
Fitting Requirements? How do you know what suit they were wearing?, it's not cheap but a type 1 suit is easily doable in a week. It's also easy to put an enhanced mod or two if you get rid of unnecessary things like side arms. Range? What range did they kill you at exactly? Operations? For a militia shotgun... you're kidding right? Speed mods: Now those are hard to fit, was he going noticeably faster than you?
Sounds to me like you went up against a super shotgunner who just so happened to be using a militia shotgun... probably cause they're cheaper. |
Lightning xVx
G I A N T
31
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Posted - 2013.03.02 19:49:00 -
[33] - Quote
Anything advanced up are fine just tweak the militia and standard gear. But aside from that shotguns are fine. |
zeek1227 zeek1227
Blitzkrieg Co.
158
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Posted - 2013.03.02 19:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
You have to be in extremely close quarters and to use effectively you have to run scout the weakest suit in the game
Yes it deals a lot of damage No it doesnt need to be aimed Yes it will kill you in CQC
now try to play in any open battle field
everyone will be able to pick your squishy scout behind off from any distance and your shotgun might as well be a water pistol |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
300
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 19:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Lower damage to 35, increase the spread for all except specialist and breach. That way shotgun progression goes 35, 37, 39. |
Winscar Shinobi
Better Hide R Die
60
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Posted - 2013.03.02 20:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
I agree the shotguns need to be looked at but I also think they should be looked at AFTER the game works properly. |
RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
60
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Posted - 2013.03.02 20:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:
I like how you assume that I dont assume people have weaponry 5. I stand by my statements with weaponry 5 in place. Thats also why I say it should leave you with ~25-50 HP in a type-II. That way if they actually fit damage mods they can still one shot it, as it should be. The actual assumption I was making is that they didnt have the SP for fitting requirements, and range, and operations, and speed mods, and etc.
Fitting Requirements? How do you know what suit they were wearing?, it's not cheap but a type 1 suit is easily doable in a week. It's also easy to put an enhanced mod or two if you get rid of unnecessary things like side arms. Range? What range did they kill you at exactly? Operations? For a militia shotgun... you're kidding right? Speed mods: Now those are hard to fit, was he going noticeably faster than you? Sounds to me like you went up against a super shotgunner who just so happened to be using a militia shotgun... probably cause they're cheaper. My tier 2 shotgun should be able to take out your tier 2 suit. Since there's no difference between a tier 2 shotgun and militia, I don't see why you think you should survive if all the pellets hit you And it sounds like most hit you...
I know what he had because I talked to him about it after the match and even he agreed that he shouldnt have been able to go through 400 HP without a headshot.
Also, your standard shotgun should NOT be able to take out a HP buffed standard suit without having a 5% or 10% damage mod or two, in my opinion. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
300
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Posted - 2013.03.02 20:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
RECON BY FIRE wrote:
I know what he had because I talked to him about it after the match and even he agreed that he shouldnt have been able to go through 400 HP without a headshot.
Then how about you tell us everything he had?
RECON BY FIRE wrote:Also, your standard shotgun should NOT be able to take out a HP buffed standard suit without having a 5% or 10% damage mod or two, in my opinion. That's your opinion, the fact that I can leave a standard heavy(that's 750 total HP) almost dead with 1 shot tells me you and your 400 armor never stood a chance. Assuming 12 pellets, that's 432 damage without any damage modifications... your Hp doesn't look so impressive now does it? And I'm almost positive there's more than 12 pellets, CCP should really tell us how many there are. |
RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
60
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Posted - 2013.03.02 20:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:
I know what he had because I talked to him about it after the match and even he agreed that he shouldnt have been able to go through 400 HP without a headshot.
Then how about you tell us everything he had? RECON BY FIRE wrote:Also, your standard shotgun should NOT be able to take out a HP buffed standard suit without having a 5% or 10% damage mod or two, in my opinion. That's your opinion, the fact that I can leave a standard heavy(that's 750 total HP) almost dead with 1 shot tells me you and your 400 HP never stood a chance. Assuming 12 pellets, that's 432 damage without any damage modifications... your Hp doesn't look so impressive now does it? And I'm almost positive there's more than 12 pellets, CCP should really tell us how many there are.
Are you ignorant? Thats seriously going to be your argument. All youre proving is that the shotgun is indeed OP. The discussion here is whether it is OP or not, and how to fix it if it is, and youre going to come in here and say your little standard shotgun blows through almost 750 HP? I am speaking of what the shotgun SHOULD do, not what it DOES do, and it definately should not be able to do that without some serious skill investment and high tier equipment, to include multiple 10% damage mods. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
300
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 20:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
RECON BY FIRE wrote:
Are you ignorant? Thats seriously going to be your argument. All youre proving is that the shotgun is indeed OP. The discussion here is whether it is OP or not, and how to fix it if it is, and youre going to come in here and say your little standard shotgun blows through almost 750 HP? I am speaking of what the shotgun SHOULD do, not what it DOES do, and it definately should not be able to do that without some serious skill investment and high tier equipment, to include multiple 10% damage mods.
Yes, because an insta-kill at point blank range is OP . It does like 1/3 of it's damage at anything past 10 meters.
I also did say almost dead, not on the brink. I'd say it does around 500 damage, but I have weaponry 5.. so yeah, that's 475 damage assuming 12 pelets for your information. |
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RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
60
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Posted - 2013.03.02 20:40:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:
Are you ignorant? Thats seriously going to be your argument. All youre proving is that the shotgun is indeed OP. The discussion here is whether it is OP or not, and how to fix it if it is, and youre going to come in here and say your little standard shotgun blows through almost 750 HP? I am speaking of what the shotgun SHOULD do, not what it DOES do, and it definately should not be able to do that without some serious skill investment and high tier equipment, to include multiple 10% damage mods.
Yes, because an insta-kill at point blank range is OP . It does like 1/3 of it's damage at anything past 10 meters. I also did say almost dead, not on the brink. I'd say it does around 500 damage, but I have weaponry 5.. so yeah, that's 475 damage assuming 12 pelets for your information.
Ok, good to know. As if I didnt already. The point Im making is that it should have less pellets because it does too much damage. Heres my final opinion on the shotgun cause Im done feeding your ignorant trolling self:
The shotgun needs a pellet reduction, and it should go back up on a scale to where it is now when a proto shotgun is used. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
300
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 20:57:00 -
[42] - Quote
RECON BY FIRE wrote:
Ok, good to know. As if I didnt already. The point Im making is that it should have less pellets because it does too much damage. Heres my final opinion on the shotgun cause Im done feeding your ignorant trolling self:
The shotgun needs a pellet reduction, and it should go back up on a scale to where it is now when a proto shotgun is used.
Telling you that your belief that 400 HP should be enough to keep you safe is somehow trolling? So how many pellets do you want? 10, so you can survive with 10 HP, or 4 HP if they have weaponry level 5 and no damage modifiers? How about 9 so your left with a nice cozy 76 HP?
Go on, we'll make the shotgun custom suited to your needs, I can't guarantee you'll live through the second shot though... |
WyrmHero1945
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
76
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:33:00 -
[43] - Quote
It's not the damage, but the range from Sharpshooter and Prof. The skill is the one that's OP imo. 3% instead of 5% should be good nerf I think, for a total of 15% range at level 5. And Prof. 2% for a total of 10% at 5. |
Coleman Gray
RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention
140
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Posted - 2013.03.28 18:37:00 -
[44] - Quote
They shouldn't benefit from sharpshooter but thats about it. |
Val'herik Dorn
SyNergy Gaming
381
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:They shouldn't benefit from sharpshooter but thats about it.
LOL really?
So AR gets SS? HMG gets SS? but shotgun doesn't?
That is a joke... SS increases the optimal range of all weapons in their respective catagory... you can't pick and choose just because you don't like getting killed by a weapon.
I don't like getting gunned down by ARs when I'm outside of their normal range... so they shouldn't be affected by SS... same logic you are using. But turned to a different weapon.
The shotgun isn't OP even with sharpshooter you can gun them down A LOT farther than they can shoot you.
I have leveled up SS and shotguns i can get a decent range out of them. but nowhere near what any other gun can get.
SS increase optimal range and with that i believe it increases falloff as well... but the falloff on a shotgun is still laughable.
As long as SS effects every other weapon shotguns should also be affected by it.
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Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
132
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
I noticed something interesting late last build and I am pretty sure SG mechanics have not changed since that time. Back then I had SG lv at 5 but this time around I have not had a chance to thest this. Anyway, here is my observation:
As you level SG the regular version gets more like breach (tight spread) and breach becomes irrelevant because the spread starts out tight as is and therefore there is no further damage bonus in packing those pellets more tightly. So with SG at level 5 you basically get a regular SG that acts like a fast ROF breach with nearly the same range, so this creates a bias - if not against other weapon types but definitely against Breach Shotgun (it becomes completely superfluous compared to the basic version). |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
132
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
Slight off topic. What happens to SG at advanced and proto levels? We see that weapons like duvole AR get a massive increase in damage over the base version. When you read th same statistic for shotguns they get a minimal increase in damage. What do they gain then as you move to advanced and proto? Pellet count per shot? |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
133
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
I think part of the problem comes from the fact that SG was conceptualized as a scout weapon where fast scouts can close in fast and use SG at short range. Of course early on there were massive hit detection issues and I think they were somehow tied into how fast suits could move. So scout suit speed was nerfed. After that because scout suits were not able to perform at all in their capacity to close in on the enemy fast, I think CCP tweaked shotgun a bit to give it a better range. This fixed the problem with Shotgun scouts but gave Assault suits an unfair advantage if they used SG. I think the problem now is that Assault suit with SG is OP, not that SG in general is OP. |
Regular Trooper
Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:36:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:I think part of the problem comes from the fact that SG was conceptualized as a scout weapon where fast scouts can close in fast and use SG at short range. Of course early on there were massive hit detection issues and I think they were somehow tied into how fast suits could move. So scout suit speed was nerfed. After that because scout suits were not able to perform at all in their capacity to close in on the enemy fast, I think CCP tweaked shotgun a bit to give it a better range. This fixed the problem with Shotgun scouts but gave Assault suits an unfair advantage if they used SG. I think the problem now is that Assault suit with SG is OP, not that SG in general is OP. Nicely said +1 |
Val'herik Dorn
SyNergy Gaming
381
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:36:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:Slight off topic. What happens to SG at advanced and proto levels? We see that weapons like duvole AR get a massive increase in damage over the base version. When you read th same statistic for shotguns they get a minimal increase in damage. What do they gain then as you move to advanced and proto? Pellet count per shot?
I do believe they get more pellets. (Well I believe it actually calls them flachettes but same difference) also the dps per pellet bonus is nice. I notice a large difference between the tiers. |
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Regular Trooper
Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Val'herik Dorn wrote:Coleman Gray wrote:They shouldn't benefit from sharpshooter but thats about it. LOL really? So AR gets SS? HMG gets SS? but shotgun doesn't? That is a joke... SS increases the optimal range of all weapons in their respective catagory... you can't pick and choose just because you don't like getting killed by a weapon. I don't like getting gunned down by ARs when I'm outside of their normal range... so they shouldn't be affected by SS... same logic you are using. But turned to a different weapon. The shotgun with sharp shooter is nasty, but any other gun even without sharpshooter will out range it. Leveling up operations makes me more accurate by reducing spread so more of my pellets will hit at all ranges. Then leveling up SS lets me fire at slightly increased ranges. Even combined that's not really that overpowered anymore than the AR getting the same bonus. The Shotgun is not OP it excels in CQC where it can hit with most of its pellets (what a surprise). SS gives it a small increase in range in which to hit with its shells but even then to hit with all of their pellets to get the OHK it has to basically be practically on top of you. True |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
1015
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
The range they get, or rather how well the dmg carries over the range they get is ridiculous.
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Regular Trooper
Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:43:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:The range they get, or rather how well the dmg carries over the range they get is ridiculous.
Except oakley and jane said me ppl have good kdr with shotty? |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
1015
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:54:00 -
[54] - Quote
Regular Trooper wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:The range they get, or rather how well the dmg carries over the range they get is ridiculous.
Except oakley and jane said me ppl have good kdr with shotty?
before the last reset I had a 4 kd with scout shotty, and I started late with it. I was bored with my main toon, so I tried it. A 4 kd isn't anything to write home about, but it's not bad.
oakley and jane use Assault suit + shotty, so that makes killing them harder to kill. I won't say the shotgun is OP, just the dmg over range is ridic. |
Regular Trooper
Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 19:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Regular Trooper wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:The range they get, or rather how well the dmg carries over the range they get is ridiculous.
Except oakley and jane said me ppl have good kdr with shotty? before the last reset I had a 4 kd with scout shotty, and I started late with it. I was bored with my main toon, so I tried it. A 4 kd isn't anything to write home about, but it's not bad. oakley and jane use Assault suit + shotty, so that makes killing them harder to kill. I won't say the shotgun is OP, just the dmg over range is ridic. Because of SS, im MD player and you a solid heavy, how about AR range? |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2174
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
The problem isn't with Sharpshooter.
As people have pointed out many times before (and I used to argue against them... sorry, guys), the problem is that Shotguns don't have a fast enough damage falloff.
Without Sharpshooter, this isn't noticeable, because the maximum range alone holds them back. When you skill it up significantly, then the lack of damage loss means they're still hitting really hard at longer range than they should be. If a brand new player dual-tanks their Militia Logistics suit, and brings the default SMG, they shouldn't be getting one-shotted from outside their max range by a Shotgun. At the moment, even a Militia HEAVY can be one-shotted with the right Shotgun fitting from outside their HMG or SMG's effective range. When your short-to-mid-range weapons are being outranged by a weapon that's intended for pure CQC, there's a problem.
At low levels, Shotguns are decent. With the falloff problem fixed, Shotguns will be decent again.
They still need to be dealing damage at longer range when you skill into Sharpshooter, but it can't be as much as it is now. |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
1015
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:The problem isn't with Sharpshooter.
As people have pointed out many times before (and I used to argue against them... sorry, guys), the problem is that Shotguns don't have a fast enough damage falloff.
Without Sharpshooter, this isn't noticeable, because the maximum range alone holds them back. When you skill it up significantly, then the lack of damage loss means they're still hitting really hard at longer range than they should be. If a brand new player dual-tanks their Militia Logistics suit, and brings the default SMG, they shouldn't be getting one-shotted from outside their max range by a Shotgun. At the moment, even a Militia HEAVY can be one-shotted with the right Shotgun fitting from outside their HMG or SMG's effective range. When your short-to-mid-range weapons are being outranged by a weapon that's intended for pure CQC, there's a problem.
At low levels, Shotguns are decent. With the falloff problem fixed, Shotguns will be decent again.
They still need to be dealing damage at longer range when you skill into Sharpshooter, but it can't be as much as it is now.
True. As a heavy, with over 1000 ehp I get 2 shotted from 10-15m out. Shotguns are suppose to be strong, I dont think anyone is saying no, but dmg fall off... needs a tweak.
Plus, the militia shotgun...WAY too strong for being militia. That's the only thing I can say is OP about SG.
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Regular Trooper
Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:13:00 -
[58] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:The problem isn't with Sharpshooter.
As people have pointed out many times before (and I used to argue against them... sorry, guys), the problem is that Shotguns don't have a fast enough damage falloff.
Without Sharpshooter, this isn't noticeable, because the maximum range alone holds them back. When you skill it up significantly, then the lack of damage loss means they're still hitting really hard at longer range than they should be. If a brand new player dual-tanks their Militia Logistics suit, and brings the default SMG, they shouldn't be getting one-shotted from outside their max range by a Shotgun. At the moment, even a Militia HEAVY can be one-shotted with the right Shotgun fitting from outside their HMG or SMG's effective range. When your short-to-mid-range weapons are being outranged by a weapon that's intended for pure CQC, there's a problem.
At low levels, Shotguns are decent. With the falloff problem fixed, Shotguns will be decent again.
They still need to be dealing damage at longer range when you skill into Sharpshooter, but it can't be as much as it is now. To get max hitted by shotty with SS profencie 3 is it 11 f with adv SG and SG lvl5 , add this the fact you straff some pellet miss the target, i think its really decent like that, if you dont move against shotty lol your dead |
Alina Heart
DIOS EX.
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:14:00 -
[59] - Quote
No |
Regular Trooper
Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:The problem isn't with Sharpshooter.
As people have pointed out many times before (and I used to argue against them... sorry, guys), the problem is that Shotguns don't have a fast enough damage falloff.
Without Sharpshooter, this isn't noticeable, because the maximum range alone holds them back. When you skill it up significantly, then the lack of damage loss means they're still hitting really hard at longer range than they should be. If a brand new player dual-tanks their Militia Logistics suit, and brings the default SMG, they shouldn't be getting one-shotted from outside their max range by a Shotgun. At the moment, even a Militia HEAVY can be one-shotted with the right Shotgun fitting from outside their HMG or SMG's effective range. When your short-to-mid-range weapons are being outranged by a weapon that's intended for pure CQC, there's a problem.
At low levels, Shotguns are decent. With the falloff problem fixed, Shotguns will be decent again.
They still need to be dealing damage at longer range when you skill into Sharpshooter, but it can't be as much as it is now. True. As a heavy, with over 1000 ehp I get 2 shotted from 10-15m out. Shotguns are suppose to be strong, I dont think anyone is saying no, but dmg fall off... needs a tweak. Plus, the militia shotgun...WAY too strong for being militia. That's the only thing I can say is OP about SG. Agree with the fact militia SG is OP |
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