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[Suggestion] How to remake snipers

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Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 03:12:00 - [1] - Quote Hi, I think that snipers, in their current form, just do not work. There are two major problems with the current incarnation of snipers: 1. They are really annoying -- there is absolutely nothing fun about running along, then suddenly dying for no apparent reason at all. There is nothing fun about having to run like an idiot whenever you are in the open just to avoid a sniper that may or may not be there. This is in contrast to other roles where it's not so annoying to lose a fight. A tank you can easily see and avoid, or work to bring down. An assault rifle you have a good duel and win or lose. Heavies you need to avoid, keep range on, or move around quickly while you shoot them. But snipers are like mosquitoes, barely seen, hidden around the edges of the map, playing their own little game independent from the rest of us. 2. They are useless -- or more accurately, they are not as useful as other roles. Let's say as a sniper you average 15 kills, 0 deaths. Let's say as an assault you also average 15 kills, 15 deaths. So, as an assault, you contribute just as much to kills in the game. But you have the added advantage of being actually able to capture points and installations. That is more useful. This is true of assaults, heavies, on-the-ground scouts, and logistics (where a logistic's lack of kills is made up for by his ability to cap objectives, give ammo, repair, revive) -- they all seem more useful than snipers. I think either of these reasons alone is enough to reconsider the current incarnation of snipers. I do not know what should be done to solve this. I think that the sniper's killing power should be reduced, just to make them less annoying (not because they're OP -- I don't think they are). Also, a team that has too many snipers tends not to do well. With reduced damage, this may inspire people to not play nipper so much. In return, snipers should be given additional tasks they can perform for the team that's more than just playing their own independent mini-game of whack-a-mole. By compensating the sniper with other powers than killing, it will hopefully stop so many players uselessly playing sniper and hindering the team (less glamorous, more useful). These other powers could include: * Player Spotter - sniper's should have some increased capability to reveal enemies in an area to all players on their team. Having vision in the form of the HUD triangle is of great value to people in ground fights. Or perhaps some form of tagging that causes an enemy to remain on radar (or increases their profile) for a fixed 15 seconds or so * Painter - sniper can help swarm launchers or forge guns, by increasing their chance of hit, or damage dealt, by providing some form of painting * Proximity Mines Spotter - much like the original Enemy Territory, allow a sniper to mark out in an obvious fashion the location of proximity mines he or she was able to locate * Covering Fire/Pinning - rather than killing enemies outright, snipers could fit a fast firing gun that alerts the enemy that they're being fired at, and sends them a message of "Don't go out there carelessly!". Not so easy to kill outright due to the warning it gives, it might nonetheless be useful at influencing the direction of movement of an enemy player, as well as wear down their shield/armour * Shield Destroyer - perhaps some sniper roles could include merely destruction of shields. This would allow them to seriously reduce the defences of enemies (but not kill them) so that teammates can cut them down, but with the advantage of being effective against vehicle shields as well * Off Map Support - ability (perhaps through an item of equipment) to call down installations, or perhaps packages such as standard uplinks or nanohives (the most basic ones?). Design this in such a way that it's more useful for a sniper to do it than for a standard player, to synergise with his role. Perhaps it requires the player to target a particular location while not moving for 15 seconds. * Remote Hacking Assist - equipment item (or sidearm) that allows a sniper to assist another player in hacking an objective. Possible justification -- they are relaying the signal from the hacker to the MCC, increasing the computational power available to complete the hack That's exhausted my creativity for now. Snipers should be less about killing enemies, and more about useful support. I'm sure there are more ways to make snipers simultaneously more useful and less annoying.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.24 03:33:00 - [2] - Quote I agree with almost all of your points. Most of these have already been discussed in other threads, but that doesn't make them any less valid. These are the points I disagree on: 1) Snipers are annoying. Yes, we are. Killing people at long range is what we do. Yes I agree that we could (or at least SHOULD) be doing more, but as you've pointed out, those other options are not opn to us right now. 2) You not liking running around "like an idiot" whenever you have to run across open ground is not the snipers fault. I, technically is CCP's for not having more cover on the maps. This problem, as I understand it, is being addressed in the upcoming build. Foliage and such. Should allow more cover in open areas. But not all planets/maps are going to have cover available to them, so for the most part, people are just going to have to deal the idea that being caught in the open is a death sentence. 3) Covering Fire/Pinning: We already are, see points 1, and 2. 4) Remote Hacking Assist: I'm leery on this idea. If it could only be used for assisting a hack, and initiating one, I might feel better about it. I don't know, I'd like to see other opinions on this first. My gut says bad, but somebody might have a good reason as to ehy this should be done. 5) Off-Map Support: My understanding is that this is going to be done by the person filling the furture "Commander Role".
Cyzad4 Blackfish Corp. 0	Posted - 2013.02.24 03:44:00 - [3] - Quote As someone who has played as a sniper for a long time now I actually don't disagree with a lot of your points OTHER than reducing damage, that just doesn't make sense. The whole game is already geared 99% to front line players so reducing our damage ability completely negates snipers as a whole. A good sniper for the most part is playing defense, thinning out the enemy before they reach an objective, killing enemies when they try to capture an objective and so on. we don't get points for capturing or revives all we have is kills and if done properly we're indispensable to a team, that being said I agree completely with there being a way to track if we're actually doing our job properly (i.e killing enemies near an objective, saving a teammate) and the idea of being able to "paint" targets would make us that much more useful as well. All in all it's our job to make sure they have a very bad day.
mollerz s1ck3r Corp 71	Posted - 2013.02.24 04:15:00 - [4] - Quote Snipers are annoying and deadly? woah. who would have thought. That's just like real life military snipers. Which is the point. And as Hagintora mentioned- it's the lack of cover that gets you running like an idiot... and that will change. Doesn't it make sense that standing in the open makes you a target? I do, however, like a lot of your ideas to add to the sniper role. I'd add that we need the bugs (random forced reload and hit detection being at the top of my personal list) fixed as well as the ability to go prone.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 04:23:00 - [5] - Quote Thankyou for the replies, guys. "Hagintora" wrote: You not liking running around "like an idiot" whenever you have to run across open ground is not the snipers fault. I, technically is CCP's for not having more cover on the maps Agreed, which is why I'm asking CCP to change this, rather than snipers :) "Hagintora" wrote: 3) Covering Fire/Pinning: We already are, see points 1, and 2. I think more can be done for the role of covering fire/pinning. Just as an example, have the damage reduced but the area increased, as well as make it more obvious where the bullets are landing. Enemy will see that that spot is dangerous to walk in, so will take a different route. If they don't, they die. "Hagintora" wrote: 4) Remote Hacking Assist: I'm leery on this idea. If it could only be used for assisting a hack, and initiating one Assisting only, of course. And only (perhaps) if you have the equipment to do it. "Hagintora" wrote: 5) Off-Map Support: My understanding is that this is going to be done by the person filling the furture "Commander Role". And that makes sense, so maybe mini-packets from snipers more along the lines of existing nanohives or something. "Cyzad4" wrote: I actually don't disagree with a lot of your points OTHER than reducing damage, that just doesn't make sense. The whole game is already geared 99% to front line players so reducing our damage ability completely negates snipers as a whole As you'll note in my original post, I actually think snipers are already underpowered as a role in Dust 514. So reducing their damage without doing anything else to compensate is pointless. I was suggesting a reduction in killing power in conjunction with granting some other useful roles. What you describe as "our job" is what the sniper's current job is. But as I said, I think that job is less useful than other jobs you can be doing, and makes the game less fun. Both of these are bad things. Change the job :) Or improve the job description.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 04:25:00 - [6] - Quote "mollerz" wrote: Snipers are annoying and deadly? woah. who would have thought. That's just like real life military snipers. Which is the point. It's not the point, really. I don't care if real life military snipers are like this. War sucks in real life, it's not something any sane person should enjoy participating in. That goes for being shot at by a real life sniper (or being a real life sniper). We're talking about a game here, which should be fun. Realism plays a role, but not at the expense of more important things like fun, balance, depth of gameplay.
Freyar Tarkin Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 95	Posted - 2013.02.24 04:44:00 - [7] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: "mollerz" wrote: Snipers are annoying and deadly? woah. who would have thought. That's just like real life military snipers. Which is the point. It's not the point, really. I don't care if real life military snipers are like this. War sucks in real life, it's not something any sane person should enjoy participating in. That goes for being shot at by a real life sniper (or being a real life sniper). We're talking about a game here, which should be fun. Realism plays a role, but not at the expense of more important things like fun, balance, depth of gameplay. You know what counters snipers? Getting in their *******ed face.
Zyrus Amalomyn Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 29	Posted - 2013.02.24 04:55:00 - [8] - Quote Sniper are supposed to annoy you. They are mainly a support role helping to cover their team. The assaults with assault rifles and the heavies with HMGS are the main killers of their team. More options for snipers would be awesome... but telling a sniper that he is useless just because he isn't an Assault/AR? Get real.
Professormohawk Stasis Military Support 22	Posted - 2013.02.24 04:57:00 - [9] - Quote yo, i watched over a hack after a squad of blueberries got killed. the enemy did not get that letter. they go to try and hack it back, and get a slug through the skull. i single-handily held down a letter, giving my team a spawn. Never say that snipers are useless.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 05:07:00 - [10] - Quote Zyrus Amalomyn wrote: More options for snipers would be awesome... but telling a sniper that he is useless just because he isn't an Assault/AR? Get real. Oh yes, that's totally what I said.

Patoman Radiant ZionTCD Legacy Rising 53	Posted - 2013.02.24 06:11:00 - [11] - Quote No issue They can get kills, but are useless in getting objectives. What is the issue, you can be good at one thing but not all things.
Zyrus Amalomyn Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 29	Posted - 2013.02.24 06:21:00 - [12] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: Zyrus Amalomyn wrote: More options for snipers would be awesome... but telling a sniper that he is useless just because he isn't an Assault/AR? Get real. Oh yes, that's totally what I said. Both have their roles in a fight. Trying to compare them is like apples and oranges.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 06:23:00 - [13] - Quote Patoman Radiant wrote: No issue They can get kills, but are useless in getting objectives. What is the issue, you can be good at one thing but not all things. Please see my original post, where I said: Winsaucerer wrote: 2. They are useless -- or more accurately, they are not as useful as other roles. Let's say as a sniper you average 15 kills, 0 deaths. Let's say as an assault you also average 15 kills, 15 deaths. So, as an assault, you contribute just as much to kills in the game. But you have the added advantage of being actually able to capture points and installations. That is more useful. This is true of assaults, heavies, on-the-ground scouts, and logistics (where a logistic's lack of kills is made up for by his ability to cap objectives, give ammo, repair, revive) -- they all seem more useful than snipers. Perhaps you will say that on average snipers get more kills than other players. I see no evidence to suggest that though. Those who have the most kills on maps, according to my own experiences, are never the snipers. This is why I think they are underpowered. Other roles can do what they do better, AND other things too.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 06:26:00 - [14] - Quote Zyrus Amalomyn wrote: Both have their roles in a fight. Trying to compare them is like apples and oranges. If I take your claim to its logical conclusion, you seem to be suggesting that there is no way we could ever say that one role is more or less useful/powerful/balanced than another, as long as those roles are doing different things. Is that what you are suggesting? If not, why can I not compare the value of the role of a sniper to a team, with the other roles in the game?
Jathniel G I A N T 38	Posted - 2013.02.24 09:58:00 - [15] - Quote Here's what I've understood so far: "I want snipers to do less damage, AND I want more places to hide from them, because they are useless to capturing objectives, and they annoy me." As for all of the ideas you mentioned... I'm a sniper. The following is the role that I play for my corp: Squad Lead - I'm not on the ground capturing objectives, but since I am not in the middle of a firefight, I can easily use the wheel menu to assign a Defend, Capture, Attack order, etc. to the next squad member who is about to perform that function, instantly. If someone goes down, it doesn't matter. The order is automatically on another available squad member, instantly. We are in a perpetual state of WP gain, as a result. I am the one BEST suited for orders and orbital strike deployment. Overwatch - I often do NOT shoot at hostiles until my squad mates are about entering combat range. Before they engage the enemy ground units, I have already told them what type of units are heading their way, armament, armor, and how many. Again, I am NOT on the ground capturing objectives, therefore I AM in the BEST position to analyze and track enemy movements both visually and on Overview Map. If there are 3 hostile units around a corner near one of my friendlies, he will be alerted long before a red chevron pops up, and LONG before they enter a solution for sniper fire. Wouldn't you like to know exactly what's ahead of you as you approach an objective BEFORE you get there? Smart Firing - I alluded to this in Overwatch, but it's very effective to have a firing solution on at least one objective terminal. That is often the only time I will shoot at an isolated target, that is NOT near or attempting to flank one of my squadmates; this prevents the loss of an objective. I also take down enemies that my ground units cannot. If you are a big dominant heavy, mowing down my squad, I will have them hide from you, draw you out, and I WILL be the one that kills you, if they can't. Good luck hitting me with that HMG at 500 meters. All they need to do is cry out, "Jath, I need sniper fire!", and I'll tell them if i have a solution or not. Aggressive Fire/Pinning Fire - This is the aggressive sniping that I don't often do, but when I DO, I'm either alone and the enemy is redlined and/or we're trying to clone them out, or my squadmates have called for it. This is when I am actively looking for any target of opportunity, and am hunting and tracking every hostile I see relentlessly. As in, don't come out from behind that box, or I will shoot at you. What confuses me, is why you want a sniper to have non-lethal pinning fire that warns that it's coming, the very concept defeats the purpose of Pinning Fire. Pinning Fire PINS you behind cover, because you can't move or you would be killed. Significant Enemy Diversion - I can often harass and stress an enemy to the point where they commit resources like time, a dropship, manpower, and even orbital strikes, simply to locate and kill me. Someone would grab a sniper rifle to counter snipe me. Okay good, that means there is now a counter sniper on the ground that my squad mates can now kill. Any amount of resources dedicated to killing me, is a resource wasted, because my squadmates have less resistance and can capture objectives that much easier. It's not like you're teaching a sniper some sort of lesson by going out-of-your-way to kill him. Snipers are, and always will be, all about killing. For you to say snipers should be 'less about killing', is like saying you want to declaw and defang a lion because you want a cat to cuddle with and it would be more fun. lol The trick is for the sniper to MAKE himself useful to his team.
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2013.02.24 10:36:00 - [16] - Quote they should make the game more quake like. get rid of ADS for all weapons except snipers and give snipers no sway and make everything 2x faster. fast.
Lykos Pyro Omega Myriad 7	Posted - 2013.02.24 11:06:00 - [17] - Quote I rarely say this, but i think you re completely and utterly wrong. to prove my point, i literally just finished a skirmish on manus peak with 31/ 0, sniping of course. That means that over the course of a 20 minute game, i bought my team over 5 minutes worth of time in respawns at least, as every kill has to wait to respawn, and then he ll respawn back at a position potentially a few hundred metres from where he was shot. Not only did i buy that time, i pissed off most of the team and killed the majority of the enemy snipers i could find, preventing them from doing the same to our team. AND in the event that we cant control the objectives, i killed over 1/5 of their team for the clone war... I'm an average sniper. Ive spec'ed over 1.3mil sp in snipers and i still dont get one hit kills on everyone, yet you want me to do LESS damage? Bullet mechanics is all that is needed to sift the good snipers from the bad. Cover fire doesnt particularly work here, people are very naive and dont always realise i just missed their face, and carry on blundering forward anyway. Snipers are not for taking out vehicles, they are anti infantry, change class to AV. Remote hacking? well why doesnt everyone on the field engage in remote hacking, hell we wont even have to deploy, jsut sit in the MCC with a laptop... HAVING SAID THAT, i definitely would like to engage painter and spotter roles for snipers, if we cant shoot it, at least warn others about it, like tanks and lavs who are moving to fast to pin the driver, but this was covered in at least one other thread ive seen and i supported it then. Thanks for reading. Criticise as necessary.
HUGO SHTIGLETZ RestlessSpirits 16	Posted - 2013.02.24 11:19:00 - [18] - Quote i snipe sometimes when my team is full of certifiable morons, i also agree with what your saying for the most part... the only really big problem i see is that its way to easy... theres no scope sway at all if your crouched and zero travel time of the projectile... in my opinion the sniper should have both these things but i also think some things should be changed and a larger reward should be given to them. like... #1 head shot bonus +10WP something small why not, a way of saying thanks for blowing that dudes brains out. #2 damage increase do to the increased difficulty to land a shot. #3 ability to make small movements without your character going through what seems like an asthma attack causing heavy breathing and crazy scope sway. and #4 improved hit detection cuz it just sucks. again this is just an opinion of mine on how sniping could be more balanced/better
Jathniel G I A N T 38	Posted - 2013.02.24 11:39:00 - [19] - Quote Lykos Pyro wrote: I rarely say this, but i think you re completely and utterly wrong. to prove my point, i literally just finished a skirmish on manus peak with 31/ 0, sniping of course. That means that over the course of a 20 minute game, i bought my team over 5 minutes worth of time in respawns at least, as every kill has to wait to respawn, and then he ll respawn back at a position potentially a few hundred metres from where he was shot. Not only did i buy that time, i pissed off most of the team and killed the majority of the enemy snipers i could find, preventing them from doing the same to our team. AND in the event that we cant control the objectives, i killed over 1/5 of their team for the clone war... I'm an average sniper. Ive spec'ed over 1.3mil sp in snipers and i still dont get one hit kills on everyone, yet you want me to do LESS damage? Bullet mechanics is all that is needed to sift the good snipers from the bad. Cover fire doesnt particularly work here, people are very naive and dont always realise i just missed their face, and carry on blundering forward anyway. Snipers are not for taking out vehicles, they are anti infantry, change class to AV. Remote hacking? well why doesnt everyone on the field engage in remote hacking, hell we wont even have to deploy, jsut sit in the MCC with a laptop... HAVING SAID THAT, i definitely would like to engage painter and spotter roles for snipers, if we cant shoot it, at least warn others about it, like tanks and lavs who are moving to fast to pin the driver, but this was covered in at least one other thread ive seen and i supported it then. Thanks for reading. Criticise as necessary. Right on. For spotting and painting, often my ground team does that for me. They tell me where a sniper is, and they simply look at him briefly. The active radar lights up his chevron on my screen. A few moments later he's down. Likewise, I paint tanks by simply aiming at them and bringing up a symbol. My squad knows where it is, and can move accordingly. People forget that the radar is already active and networked between squadmates. For bullet mechanics, it's unbelievable how many people are demanding it, just to make things harder for noobs. It's quite short-sighted to do that. As it CURRENTLY stands, if a sniper is harassing a team, ANYONE can run to a supply depot, grab a sniper rifle and try to counter snipe as needed. IF ballistics are added that will change, and in the long run, the squad will just be more vulnerable to sniper attack. Yet many non-snipers are clamoring for it. lol People need to be careful what they wish for. (Note: I AM in favor of ballistics for this very reason. It just means FAR less people sniping back. But this is a game, everyone should be able to pick up a gun, and hit a target. CAREFUL what you wish for. Adding ballistics won't change a damned thing, cept make it harder for you to shoot back at a sniper. lol)
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 12:43:00 - [20] - Quote Jathniel, it sounds like you have a very good attitude towards the role of a sniper. The proposal I have been making has been precisely along the lines of buffing the very kinds of things you say you do. So while your post sounds like it's a response/counter to mine, I really don't think it is. I think we are perhaps on the same pageGÇªunless you think snipers are useful and balanced enough anyway, and don't need improving. Just a few nitpicks amongst the majority agreement: Jathniel wrote: What confuses me, is why you want a sniper to have non-lethal pinning fire that warns that it's coming, the very concept defeats the purpose of Pinning Fire. Pinning Fire PINS you behind cover, because you can't move or you would be killed. I didn't actually suggest "non-lethal pinning fire that warns that it's coming". What I said was: Winsaucerer wrote: rather than killing enemies outright, snipers could fit a fast firing gun that alerts the enemy that they're being fired at, and sends them a message of "Don't go out there carelessly!". Not so easy to kill outright due to the warning it gives, it might nonetheless be useful at influencing the direction of movement of an enemy player, as well as wear down their shield/armour Maybe it was not as obvious as I first thought, but what I had hoped was the implied message here is that if the enemy decides to brave your fire anyway, he should die. So this was not at all intended to be a non-lethal alternative. The difference with this proposal compared to what snipers can already do is that the location (not the source) of fire is more obvious (and, in the suggestion, perhaps some form of aoe). Jathniel wrote: Snipers are, and always will be, all about killing. For you to say snipers should be 'less about killing', is like saying you want to declaw and defang a lion because you want a cat to cuddle with and it would be more fun. lol So long as we use the word "sniper", you are of course right :) But I am suggesting that the role of "sitting in a secluded spot on the map, with great vision, and ability to do damage to enemy infantry from a long way away" should be changed from "sniper" (killer), to something more. Really, I don't know why you disagree with me. You've gone to great lengths to suggest you already do all these non-killing roles, which I am suggesting should get buffed. But then you end with "Snipers are, and always will be, all about killing". That last comment just doesn't fit with the preceding parts of your post, most of which I agree with. Your post was about how you do so much more than just killing, and then you finish with "Snipers are [GÇª] all about killing". I agree with the first part of your post, and not this closing comment. Jathniel wrote: The trick is for the sniper to MAKE himself useful to his team. I'm not sure what role this statement plays in your overall argument. This is true to some extent of any player fulfilling any role in a team sport/game. Anyway, thanks (really) for the interesting post.

Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 12:57:00 - [21] - Quote Lykos Pyro wrote: to prove my point, i literally just finished a skirmish on manus peak with 31/ 0, sniping of course Lol, "manus peak". Sniper's heaven. Do you get 31/0 every game? How's your score on any map but manus peak? Really, your deaths don't matter, except that it's lighter on your wallet. As far as your kills count goes, what's your performance like most games? Here's the situation: my experience is that the top killers in any game I play are almost never the snipers. Just because you had a good game on a map that's particularly suitable for snipers does not mean that the sniper is therefore balanced, or powerful enough, or as useful in general as other roles. If snipers were consistently getting the most kills on a map with no deaths, I think that would be grounds for a nerf of their killing power. But that doesn't happen. And what I'm asking for is a buff in their other potential roles. (Side note: you did not "prove" your point. You gave evidence) Lykos Pyro wrote: i pissed off most of the team And this is one of the most important facts about snipers, the first of the two points I presented in my opening post. Snipers are annoying. They don't make the game more fun for non-snipers. They make it less fun. But for some strange reason most people can't seem to realise that this is a game design problem. It is. And you saying this just tells me that something needs to be done. Yes, I want you to do less damage. But I want you to be buffed in other ways so that overall you are better than your current state. Lykos Pyro wrote: Cover fire doesnt particularly work here, people are very naive and dont always realise i just missed their face, and carry on blundering forward anyway. As someone who is often the victim of sniper fire, the reason for this is that most of the time I can hear the sniper pinging the ground near me, but have very little visual clues to tell direction and where you are hitting. My immediate response is to run like an idiot and look for cover that might be in the right way. It is not so effective to turn around and see if I can spot the tell-tale grey line that your shot leaves and then locate cover. So my proposal was to change this, which will perhaps have the added advantage of allowing the sniper to more effectively control the enemy position. Lykos Pyro wrote: Remote hacking? well why doesnt everyone on the field engage in remote hacking, hell we wont even have to deploy, jsut sit in the MCC with a laptopGÇª PleaseGÇª.read what I actually said. This was not my suggestion. Of COURSE we shouldn't be able to remote hack.
Lykos Pyro Omega Myriad 7	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:16:00 - [22] - Quote Ok, since your assault on my argument, i will hereby spend plenty of time reasoning on all of your statements, why most of them are wrong. Firstly, on most of the open maps i have relatively decent scores, Secondly: Quote: And this is one of the most important facts about snipers, the first of the two points I presented in my opening post. Snipers are annoying. They don't make the game more fun for non-snipers. They make it less fun. But for some strange reason most people can't seem to realise that this is a game design problem. It is. And you saying this just tells me that something needs to be done Heavies are annoying to me when im playing as assault, but that doesnt mean i simply nerf or remove them. Why do we cater to your needs? i find sniping fun, the majority of your suggestions would make it even more of a clusterfuck and remove that, meaning that it becomes tedious and unrewarding. Thirdly: Quote: Lol, "manus peak". Sniper's heaven. Do you get 31/0 every game? How's your score on any map but manus peak? Really, your deaths don't matter, except that it's lighter on your wallet. As far as your kills count goes, what's your performance like most games? Here's the situation: my experience is that the top killers in any game I play are almost never the snipers. Just because you had a good game on a map that's particularly suitable for snipers does not mean that the sniper is therefore balanced, or powerful enough, or as useful in general as other roles. Manus peak is the map where snipers are expected to be at their best, why would i quote data from a close range map with loads of buildings in the way, a place where even i know its not worth sniping. I wish it cost me more tbh, i have loads of money and no isk sink. Then again even when playing assault i make about 150k on the game more than i spend, so i need more expensive mods. I also have many good sniping games but my eprsonal success is not relavent to the point im making, if you wish it to be i would quite happily compare both our stats but i assure you that is not wise. Quote: Yes, I want you to do less damage. But I want you to be buffed in other ways so that overall you are better than your current state. speaking as an actual sniper (im guessing btw you dont spend hours and hours in the class like i do, fighting as or against them), i want to retain my current damage, because im firing a high calibre shot very fast, i earn the right to severely damage any player, especially when im shooting across the map, or taking out vehicle drivers. Spotting and painting should be a passive idea whereby i look at a person for set amount of time, possibly using a module, and they appear on the map, hell i wont even take any points for that, i should be able to do that anyway. Quote: As someone who is often the victim of sniper fire statement tells me you already dislike snipers and dont snipe yourself, invalidating parts of your argument. I m a victim of sniper fire, i tell you now theres nothing more intriguing to me as a sniper, than getting shot by another sniper, whose location i have no idea about: personally thats a "put the teacup down, ** just got real" moment, relished and enjoyed, especially if i get the guy, more than the entirety of shooting nobody-assault riflers on the ground. Quote:** * Remote Hacking Assist - equipment item (or sidearm) that allows a sniper to assist another player in hacking an objective. Possible justification -- they are relaying the signal from the hacker to the MCC, increasing the computational power available to complete the hack as requested i read what you said (even though i did before) and thus i retain my position that scouts should have nothing to do with hacking unless they walk up to the letter and start it themselves. My apologies for the wall of text, i had to justify many points from someone who clearly does not snipe, and appears to me to be calling for unnecessary nerf that the majority of snipers who have posted on here say is unjustified. Good day all.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:21:00 - [23] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: Jathniel wrote: The trick is for the sniper to MAKE himself useful to his team. I'm not sure what role this statement plays in your overall argument. This is true to some extent of any player fulfilling any role in a team sport/game. Anyway, thanks (really) for the interesting post. I don't disagree with your entire post, I do think some of the secondary roles you've suggested should be made more prominent and given a dedicated game mechanic to assist these functions, however I disagree strongly with your comments regarding the nerfing of sniper damage "because it's annoying to get killed by someone you can't see". Regardless of how much damage a sniper deals, dying to one will always make you feel the same way. As it stands, the only map that should cause you to "run like an idiot whenever you are in the open" is manus peak, which even then can be avoided by taking routes around the edges of the map and spending as little time as possible in the line of sight of known sniping positions. All other maps have ample cover, which you should put to use when moving from point to point instead of running out in the open. I rarely find myself the victim of multiple sniper deaths. If the amount of cover is going to increase (as was suggested it will), I would even suggest a damage buff to the sniper rifle. The majority of people are currently using Type-II or A/B Series suits at the moment... as the game advances it will become increasingly difficult to get kills. Do you realise how difficult it is to make 3 or 4 shots at somebody who is effectively using cover? I know you generally play a scout shotgunner win, and so I can understand your frustration at being a OHK to most snipers with your relatively low max hp, however I would suggest that before making suggestions to change the class you spend some serious time playing it (not that your suggestions regarding secondary roles to optimise effectiveness weren't good). I agree with Jathniels comment here, and it does have relevance to this discussion, because as you've stated you consider snipers "useless". I would disagree, and suggest that this "uselessness" is a function of the person playing the role, and not the class itself. While this applies to all classes or roles on the battlefield, it applies even more so to a sniper due to the fact that, as you've stated, they don't have the advantage of being able to capture points and installations, meaning that a conscious effort to fulfil a meaningful role is required to optimise their utility and make them an asset to the team.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:22:00 - [24] - Quote As a someone who plays a stealth/sniper in EVERY game that even remotely allows it, I am very much against the idea of our damage being reduced in any capacity. Those other roles/abilities you suggested are... cute, I suppose, but honestly don't interest me very much. They would be things I'd do only passively, if at all. Personally, I'd leave our damage alone, give us the ability to increase our clip capacity, give us limited visual cloaking at high levels, fix the mirco-adjusting when scoping, and throw a dozen or more pillboxes and crow's nests in every level. No sway, no bullet drop, no profile highlight when we fire. If you don't like getting sniped, move tactically, and stop standing still. it's already hard to lead a sprinting target with the slow-as-molasses scope panning and the herky-jerky movement animations on foes as it is. In every match I've ever played, at LEAST one of the top 3 scorers is a sniper, and I'm not even referring to myself. There's no kill that's more satisfying to me than when I pop the grape of some bullet-hose Rambo idiot, running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, with no regard for what's happening outside a 20 foot radius of himself. Except maybe when I kill another sniper. Which raises another point: there's no death of my own that feels as justified as when I'm nestled in my cover and someone else snipes me out. At least then I know someone had to actually THINK and have some awareness. They had to track me and line up their sights. They didn't just randomly spawn or clumsily stumble upon me and empty an AR clip into my back before I could turn around. That's doesn't take any skill, that's luck. Dumb luck.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:35:00 - [25] - Quote Lykos Pyro, You're right, I do dislike snipers and I don't play them. I don't play them because I know how much it annoys other players, and I'd be a hypocrite to dislike them so much and then play one myself. I never tried to hide these facts. This is why you have been able to easily glean these facts from my statements thus far. I welcome your attempt to explain why you think most of my points are wrong, but the fact is I see very little in your post that is actually a counter to what I've said. Sometimes you clarify what you were meaning, and some things I agree with. I will respond to a limited number of points: Lykos Pyro wrote: Heavies are annoying to me when im playing as assault, but that doesnt mean i simply nerf or remove them. I'm not suggesting either of these things, so your response is not relevant to any point I made. I want the role of "sitting in a secluded spot on the map, with great vision, and ability to do damage to enemy infantry from a long way away" to be buffed. And I don't want them removed. Lykos Pyro wrote: Why do we cater to your needs? i find sniping fun You shouldn't cater to just Winsaucerer's needs. Same goes for you. We shouldn't cater to just Lykos Pyro's needs. That is why I tried to give arguments that don't depend on us favouring either you and me. To claim that I am just asking for CCP to "make the game Winsaucerer wants, just because it's Winsaucerer" is to ignore the arguments I present. As for your claim that the majority of my suggestions would make it "even more of a clusterfuck" -- I just disagree. You gave no reason to think this is true, so I see no reason to suggest that it is false. Let the reader decide for themselves. Lykos Pyro wrote: Manus peak is the map where snipers are expected to be at their best, why would i quote data from a close range map with loads of buildings in the way, a place where even i know its not worth sniping. Why? Because that reveals that snipers are in general underpowered. I can play my scout fit well on most maps. But are you saying you can only play sniper well on manus peak? So sniper is of a more limited use than other roles, thus supporting my argument. This information is relevant to me making the case that snipers are underpowered.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:44:00 - [26] - Quote Hey 2100 :) It is surprising to me that snipers (yourself included) are disagreeing. The thing is, as I said in my second point, I think snipers are underpowered. As you said, as soon as people start getting better defences, and there's more cover, it's going to be even harder for you guys. I'm actually arguing for a BUFF. It's just that I'm not arguing for a damage buff. Why is it that CCP thinks that we need more cover? If their reason is that sniper fire is annoying, then this seems to me a tacit admission that there is a gameplay problem. Increasing sniper damage will only return us to the point where CCP thought we needed more cover. Increasing damage is not the solution, nor is increasing cover. As for me - snipers rarely kill me now. I can take one full hit from most snipers (on that scout shotty build you see me on most of the time!) when full and barely have my armour touched, and then I get plenty of time to avoid further hits while my shield regens and I return to cover. When I said snipers are "useless", I was being provocative, and immediately clarified that I think they are less useful than other roles. I offered arguments for this which I think still remain virtually untouched. Unless you guys playing snipers think that your game should be "to get the most kills on the map and do nothing else", I don't see why you would disagree with me. Is that what you think snipers should be? The best killers on the map?
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:47:00 - [27] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: Those other roles/abilities you suggested are... cute, I suppose, but honestly don't interest me very much. They would be things I'd do only passively, if at all. and TheEnd762 wrote: Personally, I'd leave our damage alone, give us the ability to increase our clip capacity, give us limited visual cloaking at high levels, fix the mirco-adjusting when scoping, and throw a dozen or more pillboxes and crow's nests in every level. No sway, no bullet drop, no profile highlight when we fire. Ugh. This attitude is everything that is wrong with the current way sniper role works, and the worst direction you could take it. You're only interested in getting kills, and that is the problem. You are clearly not someone with the right attitude that I think I could persuade, so I'm not even going to try.
Lykos Pyro Omega Myriad 7	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:50:00 - [28] - Quote Quote: I'm not suggesting either of these things, so your response is not relevant to any point I made. I want the role of "sitting in a secluded spot on the map, with great vision, and ability to do damage to enemy infantry from a long way away" to be buffed. And I don't want them removed. you re suggesting damage lowering for snipers = nerf, so yes it is relevant. -1 to your argument. Quote: You shouldn't cater to just Winsaucerer's needs. Same goes for you. We shouldn't cater to just Lykos Pyro's needs. That is why I tried to give arguments that don't depend on us favouring either you and me. To claim that I am just asking for CCP to "make the game Winsaucerer wants, just because it's Winsaucerer" is to ignore the arguments I present. reductio ad absurbum. Quote: As for your claim that the majority of my suggestions would make it "even more of a clusterfuck" -- I just disagree. You gave no reason to think this is true, so I see no reason to suggest that it is false. Let the reader decide for themselves. you dont play sniper, snipers will know what i mean when i say "clusterfuck" like how when 3 people stand within a square metre of each other you cant see for nada where any of them actually are cause there names obscure each other, etc. Quote: Why? Because that reveals that snipers are in general underpowered. I can play my scout fit well on most maps. But are you saying you can only play sniper well on manus peak? So sniper is of a more limited use than other roles, thus supporting my argument. This information is relevant to me making the case that snipers are underpowered. Some games are CR, sniper is very much LR, why would i try sniping people from 10 yards away? the scope cant zoom out enough, and i ll get killed. Im not USEFUL to the team if i cant see a large portion of the map, and kill a significant number of people. Killing in this case is hindering the enemy team significantly. So i might as well play assault and do some objective capturing. If i play sniper and finish even with 7/8 for 1/2 that was pointless, i could have been way more effective as another class. I tend to play sniper rounds on most skirmish maps except the city based 5 objective ones, i enjoy the CQ combat here, and sniping can be very limited in terms of view range although BY NO MEANS impossible to do well. But when i read this post, i see a load of snipers telling you you re wrong, that the only valid ideas in your original post are the painter / spotter ideas which have already been asked for. So as for the different content of this thread, i don't think any of it will add anything to the sniper role or game, you ll just push away skilled and unskilled snipers alike... but you know, as long as you can run safely in open ground, a clone who has no real loss beside some iskies...
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.24 14:01:00 - [29] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: Hey 2100 :) It is surprising to me that snipers (yourself included) are disagreeing. The thing is, as I said in my second point, I think snipers are underpowered. As you said, as soon as people start getting better defences, and there's more cover, it's going to be even harder for you guys. I'm actually arguing for a BUFF. It's just that I'm not arguing for a damage buff. Why is it that CCP thinks that we need more cover? If their reason is that sniper fire is annoying, then this seems to me a tacit admission that there is a gameplay problem. Increasing sniper damage will only return us to the point where CCP thought we needed more cover. Increasing damage is not the solution, nor is increasing cover. As for me - snipers rarely kill me now. I can take one full hit from most snipers (on that scout shotty build you see me on most of the time!) when full and barely have my armour touched, and then I get plenty of time to avoid further hits while my shield regens and I return to cover. When I said snipers are "useless", I was being provocative, and immediately clarified that I think they are less useful than other roles. I offered arguments for this which I think still remain virtually untouched. Unless you guys playing snipers think that your game should be "to get the most kills on the map and do nothing else", I don't see why you would disagree with me. Is that what you think snipers should be? The best killers on the map? I understand that you're arguing for buffs in secondary roles, which I stated that I support, however successfully undertaking many of these secondary roles is tied, at least somewhat, into the ability to deal damage; whether acting as a deterrant or helping to thin enemy ranks. Getting kills is a large part of that, and my argument, and one which I believe Jathniel alluded to (correct me if I'm wrong) was that what is done in achieving those kills is where a sniper draws their worth, rather than just achieving the kills themselves (though this does provide some worth, it is not the optimal use of the class). I'm not even sure if CCP are introducing cover per se. The comment in this thread may have just been directed solely at the foliage additions in the coming builds, which gives players optical cover to a degree, decreasing the likelihood of being shot. I don't think that there is a causal relationship between the damage dealt and insufficient cover, other than any map related issues that are being dealt with, and so I don't see any tacit admissions of fault regarding sniper damage.. if anything it would indicate that CCP believe snipers have too much opportunity to line up multiple shots. Snipers provide a lot of intangibles that are not readily observed from the battlefield. I really do urge you to play one for a while before passing a judgement on the class mechanic.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion 21	Posted - 2013.02.24 14:04:00 - [30] - Quote Lykos Pyro wrote: Quote: I'm not suggesting either of these things, so your response is not relevant to any point I made. I want the role of "sitting in a secluded spot on the map, with great vision, and ability to do damage to enemy infantry from a long way away" to be buffed. And I don't want them removed. you re suggesting damage lowering for snipers = nerf, so yes it is relevant. -1 to your argument. Damage nerfed, other things buffed, for a net result of: buff! The maths: Small nerf in one area + bigger buffs in other areas = net buff. -1 for your response! However, 2100 may be right that no damage nerf is required because of how the game will change as people get better defences and more cover is added.



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