Snipers provide a lot of intangibles that are not readily observed from the battlefield. I really do urge you to play one for a while before passing a judgement on the class mechanic.

I can't, for two reasons:
1. Because of point (1) in my original post
2. Don't have the skillpoints spare to invest, to try it really properly

I really do urge you to play one for a while before passing a judgement on the class mechanic.

2100, given my latest posts (including my agreement that maybe they don't need a damage nerf -- and my suggestion that they be buffed in non-damage areas), do you still disagree with me on any substantial point?

Edit: also, bedtime!

In my opionion all sniper rifles need a blanket 50% increase in price. Sniper role is the only class were you can avoid death and isk attrition. Its not fair that everyone else can lose more isk than they earn. Snipers are incentivising isk grinding making it a class for people trying to avoid death.

Ugh. This attitude is everything that is wrong with the current way sniper role works, and the worst direction you could take it. You're only interested in getting kills, and that is the problem. You are clearly not someone with the right attitude that I think I could persuade, so I'm not even going to try.

It's not the point, really. I don't care if real life military snipers are like this. War sucks in real life, it's not something any sane person should enjoy participating in. That goes for being shot at by a real life sniper (or being a real life sniper).

We're talking about a game here, which should be fun. Realism plays a role, but not at the expense of more important things like fun, balance, depth of gameplay.

Jathniel, it sounds like you have a very good attitude towards the role of a sniper. The proposal I have been making has been precisely along the lines of *buffing* the very kinds of things you say you do. So while your post sounds like it's a response/counter to mine, I really don't think it is. I think we are perhaps on the same pageGǪunless you think snipers are useful and balanced enough anyway, and don't need improving.

Just a few nitpicks amongst the majority agreement:


I didn't actually suggest "non-lethal pinning fire that warns that it's coming". What I said was:


Maybe it was not as obvious as I first thought, but what I had hoped was the implied message here is that if the enemy decides to brave your fire anyway, he should die. So this was not at all intended to be a non-lethal alternative. The difference with this proposal compared to what snipers can already do is that the location (not the source) of fire is more obvious (and, in the suggestion, perhaps some form of aoe).



So long as we use the word "sniper", you are of course right :) But I am suggesting that the role of "sitting in a secluded spot on the map, with great vision, and ability to do damage to enemy infantry from a long way away" should be changed from "sniper" (killer), to something more.

Really, I don't know why you disagree with me. You've gone to great lengths to suggest you already do all these non-killing roles, which I am suggesting should get buffed. But then you end with "Snipers are, and always will be, all about killing". That last comment just doesn't fit with the preceding parts of your post, most of which I agree with. Your post was about how you do so much more than just killing, and then you finish with "Snipers are [GǪ] all about killing". I agree with the first part of your post, and not this closing comment.



I'm not sure what role this statement plays in your overall argument. This is true to some extent of any player fulfilling any role in a team sport/game.

Anyway, thanks (really) for the interesting post.

Eve online is one of the most brutal and unforgiving games you can play. I don't see Dust becoming any different. Go play COD or BF3.. They're plenty nerfed so extremely casual players such as yourself can have a "fun" time skipping through an extremely forgiving marshmallow fest.

For the rest of us, "fun" is having an actual challenge. And that means emulating exactly what war conditions in an eve world on the ground would be like. Extremely deadly and unforgiving. That, to me, is a real game.

Also, I'm snowboarding all this week, but when i get back i will make sure to look for you and snipe you into a conniption fit :D

The power of a sniper is in his ability to KILL. Period. That's all we can do. This point may seem to be in contradiction with the rest of my post but it isn't. Why? Because everything I mentioned requires "situational awareness" AND the ability to kill.

I have been playing EVE for years, and love its brutal and unforgiving nature. I've been on the side of being harsh and unforgiving to victims, as well as being the victim of such acts. I have, overall, come out well on top. But it's not the realism that makes it brutal and unforgiving, nor is it what makes EVE fun. Realism != brutal and unforgiving, nor does Realism = Good Gameplay. For example, in EVE, you can:
* Upload your mind to a new body, near instantly (I happen to think this is impossible in our world)
* Warp faster than the speed of light
* Accelerate in space only up to an arbitrary speed limit (much less than the speed of light)
* Warp through planets! (thankfully the game now gives a wormhole-looking effect to make it more believable)
* Near-instant communication from one end of the galaxy to another
* Blueprints (copies) that are somehow destroyed in the process so that you can't remember how to make the item again

And so on (I'm sure there's many other examples). Do I care about this lack of realism? No. Because it's not realism itself that makes the great game of EVE Online. Realism is just nice to have in conjunction with other things. EVE is its own world with its own laws, so the facts about our world don't always have to be represented in EVEGǪsame goes for Dust. Don't take realism at the expense of more important things.

Oh, and now I note more carefully that you say I am an "extremely casual player"GǪso I realise you're just being silly and I shouldn't have bothered to respond. But I've already written the above, so there you go.

For the rest of us, "fun" is having an actual challenge. And that means emulating exactly what war conditions in an eve world on the ground would be like. Extremely deadly and unforgiving. That, to me, is a real game.

Regarding the comment on snipers being useless, as I pointed out to 2100, I was being provocative and immediately clarified what I meant :) That is, I think other roles are (as a general rule) more useful than snipers.

I have no doubt that you and other snipers have helped a game at critical points with that well timed and aimed kill, and saved my hide too. But that's not really the point -- anyone can kill other players and save a friend or a point. The question is, is that killing that you are doing valuable enough that you wouldn't be more useful overall doing some other role? Eg, maybe driving another tank around, or playing a heavy, or shotgun scout to cap points.

I want your non-killing roles to be buffed, and if it turns out that on balance a similarly equipped+skilled sniper can't kill a similarly equipped+skilled infantry guy on the ground in two or three shots (or whatever we think is appropriately balanced), then damage buffed too. But I think that perhaps the way that a sniper kills needs to be looked at.



Technically, it is a contradiction. If you say "All a sniper can do is kill", and then you list other non-killing things a sniper can do (such as spotting enemies), you have contradicted yourself. The thing is, I agree with your original post talking about all the roles in addition to killing that a sniper plays. I think that those need buffing. And a sniper should certainly be able to kill.

I fear two scenarios long term in this game:
a) Snipers are too weak at killing and do nothing else -- they're nothing more than a nuisance, hearing that ping on the ground near you, and then an occasional hit that wipes out your shield before you get to coverGǪwasted slot on the team
b) Snipers are too strong at killing and do nothing else -- they are a nuisance that can kill you with impunity if you step out into the open for more than a few secondsGǪdestroying the fun of the game for the non-snipers

I want something in between this. The ability to kill another player in two or three hits or whatever is balanced, but also other useful powers when not killing that are considered very useful to the team.

CCP is a build ahead of you. This build, they said they were going to change all sniper rifles so they need to be charged.
Check the patch notes

CCP is a build ahead of you. This build, they said they were going to change all sniper rifles so they need to be charged.
Check the patch notes

I really hope this isn't true, because if it is, that's it for me. Done with Dust.

The charge sniper rifle feature did not make it into the Chromosome update. We are planning more variations for the sniper rifle so expect more variations in the fire mode of sniper rifles in future updates.

Hate to quote myself...

In Eve, snipers wouldn't be hamstrung foam pellet launching social butterflies. They'd be hardened killers that could do more than they can now.

I'll expect your follow up NERF sniper post when you are all of a sudden dying a lot more from sniper fire than you are now.

As an aside, I have no idea why you are in a position where you get sniped so much you had to post this, but you might want to post int he training section about how not to get wasted by snipers so much. I don;t get sniped that often, so you must be doing something wrong. Just a possibility :)

I'm asking for a sniper buff. As I've said many times.

I'm not getting sniped much. I'm not getting killed by much at all. Snipers rarely kill me one hit, and unless I'm on Manus Peak they almost never kill me. Snipers are underpowered once you get some defences.

My point right from the original post has been:
1. Snipers are annoying
2. Snipers are underpowered

Neither of those is a case of me dying frequently to snipers.

I think that the sniper's killing power should be reduced

Yes, really. TheEnd762, I've been as clear as I think I can be about these things.

So you claim you want them buffed, but you want their killing power reduced. That is the definition of a contradiction. You may revise to say you want them to have other things to do, more capabilities, but reducing their killing power is a nerf any way you try to spin it.

Damage nerfed, other things buffed, for a net result of: buff!

The maths:
Small nerf in one area + bigger buffs in other areas = net buff.

-1 for your response!

However, 2100 may be right that no damage nerf is required because of how the game will change as people get better defences and more cover is added.

I think snipers should be invisible and have a shield that can absorb at least one round from everything in the game without going down. So, they can hide behind the rocks until whatever is shooting at them gets bored and moves on. I think the cost of the suit is too high because sometimes they lose one. I think sniper drop suits should have two side arm slots so they can carry a pistol and a small handheld nuclear weapon that one shots all tanks and any equiptment on the field. But, to maintain balance it should have a cool down timer of at least 2 minutes so you can only use it a couple of times per round. I don't think snipers should ever show up on the radar or with line of site detection, because it's the future and their suits should have better dampening abilities. I think sniper should have two equipment slots so they can carry nano hives and drop links. That way they never have to be exposed. Since they are using futuristic rail guns, I don't think they should have any range limitations or bullet drop. I think snipers should have robotic arms that way they can sprint and ads at the same time with no sway. I think that snipers should have sensors built into their helmets that make a beeping noise that gets faster as people approach them so no one can sneak up behind them. It's not fair to let people get behind them unless you boost the armor by at least one hundred. I've also noticed that their are some points on the map that they can't reach with their 10 ft verticle. So, I was thinking that maybe they could have a special module that summons a magical unicorn that can help them get to better vantage points. Oh, and also as the unicorn flys over everyone it melts them with rainbow acid. I also think that when snipers shoot someone and it doesn't 1 hit kill them. It should at least slow them down by 80%. I would also like suggest heat seeking and armor piercing rounds. I mean why can't a mini rail gun disable a jeep or blow the treads off a tank so it can't move. I would also like to see a long range piece of hacking equiptment that can hack and take control of enemy installations from a distance. I'm not talking from the red line or anything, but something realistic like 300 yards. Oh and lastly I would like to see some sort of team barrier or at least a drop link lock. I notice that sometimes they get seen because some stupid ar guy or heavy uses their drop and gives away their position.

I admit, I've asked for some of those things.
Namely, a heavy rifle that can damage vehicles, and a cloaking device that eliminates line-of-sight detection.

I like the pocket nuke idea. That's da bomb. All puns intended. lol

1. They are really annoying -- there is absolutely nothing fun about running along, then suddenly dying for no apparent reason at all.

It's not the point, really. I don't care if real life military snipers are like this. War sucks in real life, it's not something any sane person should enjoy participating in. That goes for being shot at by a real life sniper (or being a real life sniper).

We're talking about a game here, which should be fun. Realism plays a role, but not at the expense of more important things like fun, balance, depth of gameplay.