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Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
   |
Posted - 2013.02.24 03:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
I think that snipers, in their current form, just do not work. There are two major problems with the current incarnation of snipers:
1. They are really annoying -- there is absolutely nothing fun about running along, then suddenly dying for no apparent reason at all. There is nothing fun about having to run like an idiot whenever you are in the open just to avoid a sniper that may or may not be there. This is in contrast to other roles where it's not so annoying to lose a fight. A tank you can easily see and avoid, or work to bring down. An assault rifle you have a good duel and win or lose. Heavies you need to avoid, keep range on, or move around quickly while you shoot them. But snipers are like mosquitoes, barely seen, hidden around the edges of the map, playing their own little game independent from the rest of us.
2. They are useless -- or more accurately, they are not as useful as other roles. Let's say as a sniper you average 15 kills, 0 deaths. Let's say as an assault you also average 15 kills, 15 deaths. So, as an assault, you contribute just as much to kills in the game. But you have the added advantage of being actually able to capture points and installations. That is more useful. This is true of assaults, heavies, on-the-ground scouts, and logistics (where a logistic's lack of kills is made up for by his ability to cap objectives, give ammo, repair, revive) -- they all seem more useful than snipers.
I think either of these reasons alone is enough to reconsider the current incarnation of snipers. I do not know what should be done to solve this. I think that the sniper's killing power should be reduced, just to make them less annoying (not because they're OP -- I don't think they are). Also, a team that has too many snipers tends not to do well. With reduced damage, this may inspire people to not play nipper so much.
In return, snipers should be given additional tasks they can perform for the team that's more than just playing their own independent mini-game of whack-a-mole. By compensating the sniper with other powers than killing, it will hopefully stop so many players uselessly playing sniper and hindering the team (less glamorous, more useful). These other powers could include:
* Player Spotter - sniper's should have some increased capability to reveal enemies in an area to all players on their team. Having vision in the form of the HUD triangle is of great value to people in ground fights. Or perhaps some form of tagging that causes an enemy to remain on radar (or increases their profile) for a fixed 15 seconds or so
* Painter - sniper can help swarm launchers or forge guns, by increasing their chance of hit, or damage dealt, by providing some form of painting
* Proximity Mines Spotter - much like the original Enemy Territory, allow a sniper to mark out in an obvious fashion the location of proximity mines he or she was able to locate
* Covering Fire/Pinning - rather than killing enemies outright, snipers could fit a fast firing gun that alerts the enemy that they're being fired at, and sends them a message of "Don't go out there carelessly!". Not so easy to kill outright due to the warning it gives, it might nonetheless be useful at influencing the direction of movement of an enemy player, as well as wear down their shield/armour
* Shield Destroyer - perhaps some sniper roles could include merely destruction of shields. This would allow them to seriously reduce the defences of enemies (but not kill them) so that teammates can cut them down, but with the advantage of being effective against vehicle shields as well
* Off Map Support - ability (perhaps through an item of equipment) to call down installations, or perhaps packages such as standard uplinks or nanohives (the most basic ones?). Design this in such a way that it's more useful for a sniper to do it than for a standard player, to synergise with his role. Perhaps it requires the player to target a particular location while not moving for 15 seconds.
* Remote Hacking Assist - equipment item (or sidearm) that allows a sniper to assist another player in hacking an objective. Possible justification -- they are relaying the signal from the hacker to the MCC, increasing the computational power available to complete the hack
That's exhausted my creativity for now.
Snipers should be less about killing enemies, and more about useful support. I'm sure there are more ways to make snipers simultaneously more useful and less annoying. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 04:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thankyou for the replies, guys.
"Hagintora" wrote:You not liking running around "like an idiot" whenever you have to run across open ground is not the snipers fault. I, technically is CCP's for not having more cover on the maps
Agreed, which is why I'm asking CCP to change this, rather than snipers :)
"Hagintora" wrote:3) Covering Fire/Pinning: We already are, see points 1, and 2.
I think more can be done for the role of covering fire/pinning. Just as an example, have the damage reduced but the area increased, as well as make it more obvious where the bullets are landing. Enemy will see that *that* spot is dangerous to walk in, so will take a different route. If they don't, they die.
"Hagintora" wrote:4) Remote Hacking Assist: I'm leery on this idea. If it could only be used for assisting a hack, and initiating one
Assisting only, of course. And only (perhaps) if you have the equipment to do it.
"Hagintora" wrote:5) Off-Map Support: My understanding is that this is going to be done by the person filling the furture "Commander Role".
And that makes sense, so maybe mini-packets from snipers more along the lines of existing nanohives or something.
"Cyzad4" wrote:I actually don't disagree with a lot of your points OTHER than reducing damage, that just doesn't make sense.
The whole game is already geared 99% to front line players so reducing our damage ability completely negates snipers as a whole
As you'll note in my original post, I actually think snipers are already underpowered as a role in Dust 514. So reducing their damage without doing anything else to compensate is pointless. I was suggesting a reduction in killing power in conjunction with granting some other useful roles.
What you describe as "our job" is what the sniper's current job is. But as I said, I think that job is less useful than other jobs you can be doing, and makes the game less fun. Both of these are bad things. Change the job :) Or improve the job description. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 04:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
"mollerz" wrote:Snipers are annoying and deadly? woah. who would have thought. That's just like real life military snipers. Which is the point.
It's not the point, really. I don't care if real life military snipers are like this. War sucks in real life, it's not something any sane person should enjoy participating in. That goes for being shot at by a real life sniper (or being a real life sniper).
We're talking about a game here, which should be fun. Realism plays a role, but not at the expense of more important things like fun, balance, depth of gameplay. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 05:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zyrus Amalomyn wrote:
More options for snipers would be awesome... but telling a sniper that he is useless just because he isn't an Assault/AR? Get real.
Oh yes, that's totally what I said. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 06:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Patoman Radiant wrote:No issue
They can get kills, but are useless in getting objectives. What is the issue, you can be good at one thing but not all things.
Please see my original post, where I said:
Winsaucerer wrote:2. They are useless -- or more accurately, they are not as useful as other roles. Let's say as a sniper you average 15 kills, 0 deaths. Let's say as an assault you also average 15 kills, 15 deaths. So, as an assault, you contribute just as much to kills in the game. But you have the added advantage of being actually able to capture points and installations. That is more useful. This is true of assaults, heavies, on-the-ground scouts, and logistics (where a logistic's lack of kills is made up for by his ability to cap objectives, give ammo, repair, revive) -- they all seem more useful than snipers.
Perhaps you will say that on average snipers get more kills than other players. I see no evidence to suggest that though. Those who have the most kills on maps, according to my own experiences, are never the snipers.
This is why I think they are underpowered. Other roles can do what they do better, AND other things too. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 06:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zyrus Amalomyn wrote:
Both have their roles in a fight. Trying to compare them is like apples and oranges.
If I take your claim to its logical conclusion, you seem to be suggesting that there is no way we could ever say that one role is more or less useful/powerful/balanced than another, as long as those roles are doing different things.
Is that what you are suggesting?
If not, why can I not compare the value of the role of a sniper to a team, with the other roles in the game? |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 12:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jathniel, it sounds like you have a very good attitude towards the role of a sniper. The proposal I have been making has been precisely along the lines of *buffing* the very kinds of things you say you do. So while your post sounds like it's a response/counter to mine, I really don't think it is. I think we are perhaps on the same pageGǪunless you think snipers are useful and balanced enough anyway, and don't need improving.
Just a few nitpicks amongst the majority agreement:
Jathniel wrote:What confuses me, is why you want a sniper to have non-lethal pinning fire that warns that it's coming, the very concept defeats the purpose of Pinning Fire. Pinning Fire PINS you behind cover, because you can't move or you would be killed.
I didn't actually suggest "non-lethal pinning fire that warns that it's coming". What I said was:
Winsaucerer wrote:rather than killing enemies outright, snipers could fit a fast firing gun that alerts the enemy that they're being fired at, and sends them a message of "Don't go out there carelessly!". Not so easy to kill outright due to the warning it gives, it might nonetheless be useful at influencing the direction of movement of an enemy player, as well as wear down their shield/armour
Maybe it was not as obvious as I first thought, but what I had hoped was the implied message here is that if the enemy decides to brave your fire anyway, he should die. So this was not at all intended to be a non-lethal alternative. The difference with this proposal compared to what snipers can already do is that the location (not the source) of fire is more obvious (and, in the suggestion, perhaps some form of aoe).
Jathniel wrote:Snipers are, and always will be, all about killing. For you to say snipers should be 'less about killing', is like saying you want to declaw and defang a lion because you want a cat to cuddle with and it would be more fun. lol
So long as we use the word "sniper", you are of course right :) But I am suggesting that the role of "sitting in a secluded spot on the map, with great vision, and ability to do damage to enemy infantry from a long way away" should be changed from "sniper" (killer), to something more.
Really, I don't know why you disagree with me. You've gone to great lengths to suggest you already do all these non-killing roles, which I am suggesting should get buffed. But then you end with "Snipers are, and always will be, all about killing". That last comment just doesn't fit with the preceding parts of your post, most of which I agree with. Your post was about how you do so much more than just killing, and then you finish with "Snipers are [GǪ] all about killing". I agree with the first part of your post, and not this closing comment.
Jathniel wrote:The trick is for the sniper to MAKE himself useful to his team.
I'm not sure what role this statement plays in your overall argument. This is true to some extent of any player fulfilling any role in a team sport/game.
Anyway, thanks (really) for the interesting post. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 12:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lykos Pyro wrote:to prove my point, i literally just finished a skirmish on manus peak with 31/ 0, sniping of course
Lol, "manus peak". Sniper's heaven. Do you get 31/0 every game? How's your score on any map but manus peak? Really, your deaths don't matter, except that it's lighter on *your* wallet. As far as your kills count goes, what's your performance like most games? Here's the situation: my experience is that the top killers in any game I play are *almost never* the snipers. Just because you had a good game on a map that's particularly suitable for snipers does not mean that the sniper is therefore balanced, or powerful enough, or as useful in general as other roles.
If snipers were consistently getting the most kills on a map with no deaths, I think that would be grounds for a nerf of their killing power. But that doesn't happen. And what I'm asking for is a buff in their other potential roles.
(Side note: you did not "prove" your point. You gave evidence)
Lykos Pyro wrote:i pissed off most of the team
And this is one of the most important facts about snipers, the first of the two points I presented in my opening post. Snipers are annoying. They don't make the game more fun for non-snipers. They make it *less* fun. But for some strange reason most people can't seem to realise that this is a game design problem. It is. And you saying this just tells me that something needs to be done.
Yes, I want you to do less damage. But I want you to be buffed in other ways so that overall you are better than your current state.
Lykos Pyro wrote:Cover fire doesnt particularly work here, people are very naive and dont always realise i just missed their face, and carry on blundering forward anyway.
As someone who is often the victim of sniper fire, the reason for this is that most of the time I can hear the sniper pinging the ground near me, but have very little visual clues to tell direction and where you are hitting. My immediate response is to run like an idiot and look for cover that might be in the right way. It is not so effective to turn around and see if I can spot the tell-tale grey line that your shot leaves and *then* locate cover. So my proposal was to change this, which will perhaps have the added advantage of allowing the sniper to more effectively control the enemy position.
Lykos Pyro wrote:Remote hacking? well why doesnt everyone on the field engage in remote hacking, hell we wont even have to deploy, jsut sit in the MCC with a laptopGǪ
PleaseGǪ.read what I actually said. This was not my suggestion. Of COURSE we shouldn't be able to remote hack. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 13:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lykos Pyro,
You're right, I do dislike snipers and I don't play them. I don't play them because I know how much it annoys other players, and I'd be a hypocrite to dislike them so much and then play one myself. I never tried to hide these facts. This is why you have been able to easily glean these facts from my statements thus far.
I welcome your attempt to explain why you think most of my points are wrong, but the fact is I see very little in your post that is actually a counter to what I've said. Sometimes you clarify what you were meaning, and some things I agree with. I will respond to a limited number of points:
Lykos Pyro wrote:Heavies are annoying to me when im playing as assault, but that doesnt mean i simply nerf or remove them.
I'm not suggesting either of these things, so your response is not relevant to any point I made. I want the role of "sitting in a secluded spot on the map, with great vision, and ability to do damage to enemy infantry from a long way away" to be buffed. And I don't want them removed.
Lykos Pyro wrote:Why do we cater to your needs? i find sniping fun
You shouldn't cater to just Winsaucerer's needs. Same goes for you. We shouldn't cater to just Lykos Pyro's needs. That is why I tried to give arguments that don't depend on us favouring either you and me. To claim that I am just asking for CCP to "make the game Winsaucerer wants, just because it's Winsaucerer" is to ignore the arguments I present.
As for your claim that the majority of my suggestions would make it "even more of a clusterfuck" -- I just disagree. You gave no reason to think this is true, so I see no reason to suggest that it is false. Let the reader decide for themselves.
Lykos Pyro wrote:Manus peak is the map where snipers are expected to be at their best, why would i quote data from a close range map with loads of buildings in the way, a place where even i know its not worth sniping.
Why? Because that reveals that snipers are in general underpowered. I can play my scout fit well on most maps. But are you saying you can only play sniper well on manus peak? So sniper is of a more limited use than other roles, thus supporting my argument. This information is relevant to me making the case that snipers are underpowered. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 13:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hey 2100 :) It is surprising to me that snipers (yourself included) are disagreeing.
The thing is, as I said in my second point, I think snipers are underpowered. As you said, as soon as people start getting better defences, and there's more cover, it's going to be even harder for you guys. I'm actually arguing for a BUFF. It's just that I'm not arguing for a *damage* buff. Why is it that CCP thinks that we need more cover? If their reason is that sniper fire is annoying, then this seems to me a tacit admission that there is a gameplay problem. Increasing sniper damage will only return us to the point where CCP thought we needed more cover. Increasing damage is not the solution, nor is increasing cover.
As for me - snipers rarely kill me now. I can take one full hit from most snipers (on that scout shotty build you see me on most of the time!) when full and barely have my armour touched, and then I get plenty of time to avoid further hits while my shield regens and I return to cover.
When I said snipers are "useless", I was being provocative, and immediately clarified that I think they are less useful than other roles. I offered arguments for this which I think still remain virtually untouched.
Unless you guys playing snipers think that your game should be "to get the most kills on the map and do nothing else", I don't see why you would disagree with me. Is that what you think snipers should be? The best killers on the map? |
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Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 13:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:Those other roles/abilities you suggested are... cute, I suppose, but honestly don't interest me very much. They would be things I'd do only passively, if at all.
and
TheEnd762 wrote:Personally, I'd leave our damage alone, give us the ability to increase our clip capacity, give us limited visual cloaking at high levels, fix the mirco-adjusting when scoping, and throw a dozen or more pillboxes and crow's nests in every level. No sway, no bullet drop, no profile highlight when we fire.
Ugh. This attitude is everything that is wrong with the current way sniper role works, and the worst direction you could take it. You're only interested in getting kills, and that is the problem. You are clearly not someone with the right attitude that I think I could persuade, so I'm not even going to try. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 14:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lykos Pyro wrote:Quote: I'm not suggesting either of these things, so your response is not relevant to any point I made. I want the role of "sitting in a secluded spot on the map, with great vision, and ability to do damage to enemy infantry from a long way away" to be buffed. And I don't want them removed. you re suggesting damage lowering for snipers = nerf, so yes it is relevant. -1 to your argument.
Damage nerfed, other things buffed, for a net result of: buff!
The maths:
Small nerf in one area + bigger buffs in other areas = net buff.
-1 for your response!
However, 2100 may be right that no damage nerf is required because of how the game will change as people get better defences and more cover is added. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 14:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
2100 Angels wrote:
Snipers provide a lot of intangibles that are not readily observed from the battlefield. I really do urge you to play one for a while before passing a judgement on the class mechanic.
I can't, for two reasons:
1. Because of point (1) in my original post
2. Don't have the skillpoints spare to invest, to try it really properly |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 14:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
2100, given my latest posts (including my agreement that maybe they don't need a damage nerf -- and my suggestion that they be buffed in non-damage areas), do you still disagree with me on any substantial point?
Edit: also, bedtime! |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 23:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
mollerz wrote:
Eve online is one of the most brutal and unforgiving games you can play. I don't see Dust becoming any different. Go play COD or BF3.. They're plenty nerfed so extremely casual players such as yourself can have a "fun" time skipping through an extremely forgiving marshmallow fest.
For the rest of us, "fun" is having an actual challenge. And that means emulating exactly what war conditions in an eve world on the ground would be like. Extremely deadly and unforgiving. That, to me, is a real game.
I have been playing EVE for years, and love its brutal and unforgiving nature. I've been on the side of being harsh and unforgiving to victims, as well as being the victim of such acts. I have, overall, come out well on top. But it's not the realism that makes it brutal and unforgiving, nor is it what makes EVE fun. Realism != brutal and unforgiving, nor does Realism = Good Gameplay. For example, in EVE, you can:
* Upload your mind to a new body, near instantly (I happen to think this is impossible in our world)
* Warp faster than the speed of light
* Accelerate in space only up to an arbitrary speed limit (much less than the speed of light)
* Warp through planets! (thankfully the game now gives a wormhole-looking effect to make it more believable)
* Near-instant communication from one end of the galaxy to another
* Blueprints (copies) that are somehow destroyed in the process so that you can't remember how to make the item again
And so on (I'm sure there's many other examples). Do I care about this lack of realism? No. Because it's not realism itself that makes the great game of EVE Online. Realism is just nice to have in conjunction with other things. EVE is its own world with its own laws, so the facts about our world don't always have to be represented in EVEGǪsame goes for Dust. Don't take realism at the expense of more important things.
Oh, and now I note more carefully that you say I am an "extremely casual player"GǪso I realise you're just being silly and I shouldn't have bothered to respond. But I've already written the above, so there you go.
Quote:
Also, I'm snowboarding all this week, but when i get back i will make sure to look for you and snipe you into a conniption fit :D
Thanks :) |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 23:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Regarding the comment on snipers being useless, as I pointed out to 2100, I was being provocative and immediately clarified what I meant :) That is, I think other roles are (as a general rule) more useful than snipers.
I have no doubt that you and other snipers have helped a game at critical points with that well timed and aimed kill, and saved my hide too. But that's not really the point -- anyone can kill other players and save a friend or a point. The question is, is that killing that you are doing valuable enough that you wouldn't be more useful overall doing some other role? Eg, maybe driving another tank around, or playing a heavy, or shotgun scout to cap points.
I want your non-killing roles to be buffed, and if it turns out that on balance a similarly equipped+skilled sniper can't kill a similarly equipped+skilled infantry guy on the ground in two or three shots (or whatever we think is appropriately balanced), then damage buffed too. But I think that perhaps the way that a sniper kills needs to be looked at.
Jathniel wrote:The power of a sniper is in his ability to KILL. Period. That's all we can do. This point may seem to be in contradiction with the rest of my post but it isn't. Why? Because everything I mentioned requires "situational awareness" AND the ability to kill.
Technically, it is a contradiction. If you say "All a sniper can do is kill", and then you list other non-killing things a sniper can do (such as spotting enemies), you have contradicted yourself. The thing is, I agree with your original post talking about all the roles in addition to killing that a sniper plays. I think that those need buffing. And a sniper should certainly be able to kill.
I fear two scenarios long term in this game:
a) Snipers are too weak at killing and do nothing else -- they're nothing more than a nuisance, hearing that ping on the ground near you, and then an occasional hit that wipes out your shield before you get to coverGǪwasted slot on the team
b) Snipers are too strong at killing and do nothing else -- they are a nuisance that can kill you with impunity if you step out into the open for more than a few secondsGǪdestroying the fun of the game for the non-snipers
I want something in between this. The ability to kill another player in two or three hits or whatever is balanced, but also other useful powers when not killing that are considered very useful to the team. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 02:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Hate to quote myself... mollerz wrote:
For the rest of us, "fun" is having an actual challenge. And that means emulating exactly what war conditions in an eve world on the ground would be like. Extremely deadly and unforgiving. That, to me, is a real game.
You're right, I did misread. But that does not help. If you are talking about realism, EVE Online ground battles would simply involve nuking the whole area from orbit and rebuilding. That's not going to be an option - it wouldn't be particularly fun if your enemy could just blow your stuff up from space. So, screw even EVE realism, for the sake of fun.
I'm sure there's plenty of other game-fun-reducing facts about "real eve war" that won't be implemented.
Quote:
In Eve, snipers wouldn't be hamstrung foam pellet launching social butterflies. They'd be hardened killers that could do more than they can now.
RIght. Screw realism for fun. Supporting my point!
Quote:I'll expect your follow up NERF sniper post when you are all of a sudden dying a lot more from sniper fire than you are now.
I'm asking for a sniper buff. As I've said many times.
Quote:
As an aside, I have no idea why you are in a position where you get sniped so much you had to post this, but you might want to post int he training section about how not to get wasted by snipers so much. I don;t get sniped that often, so you must be doing something wrong. Just a possibility :)
I'm not getting sniped much. I'm not getting killed by much at all. Snipers rarely kill me one hit, and unless I'm on Manus Peak they almost never kill me. Snipers are underpowered once you get some defences.
My point right from the original post has been:
1. Snipers are annoying
2. Snipers are underpowered
Neither of those is a case of me dying frequently to snipers. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
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Posted - 2013.02.25 03:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yes, really. TheEnd762, I've been as clear as I think I can be about these things. |
Winsaucerer
The Southern Legion
21
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Posted - 2013.02.25 04:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Grand Moff Hoffman wrote:Winsaucerer wrote:Yes, really. TheEnd762, I've been as clear as I think I can be about these things. So you claim you want them buffed, but you want their killing power reduced. That is the definition of a contradiction. You may revise to say you want them to have other things to do, more capabilities, but reducing their killing power is a nerf any way you try to spin it.
My response to someone else earlier in this thread:
Winsaucerer wrote:Damage nerfed, other things buffed, for a net result of: buff!
The maths:
Small nerf in one area + bigger buffs in other areas = net buff.
-1 for your response!
However, 2100 may be right that no damage nerf is required because of how the game will change as people get better defences and more cover is added.
As I said, I think I have been as clear as I know how to be. |
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