DUST Search - [Suggestion] How to remake snipers

Winsaucerer wrote:

Hey 2100 :) It is surprising to me that snipers (yourself included) are disagreeing.

The thing is, as I said in my second point, I think snipers are underpowered. As you said, as soon as people start getting better defences, and there's more cover, it's going to be even harder for you guys. I'm actually arguing for a BUFF. It's just that I'm not arguing for a *damage* buff. Why is it that CCP thinks that we need more cover? If their reason is that sniper fire is annoying, then this seems to me a tacit admission that there is a gameplay problem. Increasing sniper damage will only return us to the point where CCP thought we needed more cover. Increasing damage is not the solution, nor is increasing cover.

As for me - snipers rarely kill me now. I can take one full hit from most snipers (on that scout shotty build you see me on most of the time!) when full and barely have my armour touched, and then I get plenty of time to avoid further hits while my shield regens and I return to cover.

When I said snipers are "useless", I was being provocative, and immediately clarified that I think they are less useful than other roles. I offered arguments for this which I think still remain virtually untouched.

Unless you guys playing snipers think that your game should be "to get the most kills on the map and do nothing else", I don't see why you would disagree with me. Is that what you think snipers should be? The best killers on the map?


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2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.24 13:21:00 - [1] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: Jathniel wrote: The trick is for the sniper to MAKE himself useful to his team. I'm not sure what role this statement plays in your overall argument. This is true to some extent of any player fulfilling any role in a team sport/game. Anyway, thanks (really) for the interesting post. I don't disagree with your entire post, I do think some of the secondary roles you've suggested should be made more prominent and given a dedicated game mechanic to assist these functions, however I disagree strongly with your comments regarding the nerfing of sniper damage "because it's annoying to get killed by someone you can't see". Regardless of how much damage a sniper deals, dying to one will always make you feel the same way. As it stands, the only map that should cause you to "run like an idiot whenever you are in the open" is manus peak, which even then can be avoided by taking routes around the edges of the map and spending as little time as possible in the line of sight of known sniping positions. All other maps have ample cover, which you should put to use when moving from point to point instead of running out in the open. I rarely find myself the victim of multiple sniper deaths. If the amount of cover is going to increase (as was suggested it will), I would even suggest a damage buff to the sniper rifle. The majority of people are currently using Type-II or A/B Series suits at the moment... as the game advances it will become increasingly difficult to get kills. Do you realise how difficult it is to make 3 or 4 shots at somebody who is effectively using cover? I know you generally play a scout shotgunner win, and so I can understand your frustration at being a OHK to most snipers with your relatively low max hp, however I would suggest that before making suggestions to change the class you spend some serious time playing it (not that your suggestions regarding secondary roles to optimise effectiveness weren't good). I agree with Jathniels comment here, and it does have relevance to this discussion, because as you've stated you consider snipers "useless". I would disagree, and suggest that this "uselessness" is a function of the person playing the role, and not the class itself. While this applies to all classes or roles on the battlefield, it applies even more so to a sniper due to the fact that, as you've stated, they don't have the advantage of being able to capture points and installations, meaning that a conscious effort to fulfil a meaningful role is required to optimise their utility and make them an asset to the team.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.24 14:01:00 - [2] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: Hey 2100 :) It is surprising to me that snipers (yourself included) are disagreeing. The thing is, as I said in my second point, I think snipers are underpowered. As you said, as soon as people start getting better defences, and there's more cover, it's going to be even harder for you guys. I'm actually arguing for a BUFF. It's just that I'm not arguing for a damage buff. Why is it that CCP thinks that we need more cover? If their reason is that sniper fire is annoying, then this seems to me a tacit admission that there is a gameplay problem. Increasing sniper damage will only return us to the point where CCP thought we needed more cover. Increasing damage is not the solution, nor is increasing cover. As for me - snipers rarely kill me now. I can take one full hit from most snipers (on that scout shotty build you see me on most of the time!) when full and barely have my armour touched, and then I get plenty of time to avoid further hits while my shield regens and I return to cover. When I said snipers are "useless", I was being provocative, and immediately clarified that I think they are less useful than other roles. I offered arguments for this which I think still remain virtually untouched. Unless you guys playing snipers think that your game should be "to get the most kills on the map and do nothing else", I don't see why you would disagree with me. Is that what you think snipers should be? The best killers on the map? I understand that you're arguing for buffs in secondary roles, which I stated that I support, however successfully undertaking many of these secondary roles is tied, at least somewhat, into the ability to deal damage; whether acting as a deterrant or helping to thin enemy ranks. Getting kills is a large part of that, and my argument, and one which I believe Jathniel alluded to (correct me if I'm wrong) was that what is done in achieving those kills is where a sniper draws their worth, rather than just achieving the kills themselves (though this does provide some worth, it is not the optimal use of the class). I'm not even sure if CCP are introducing cover per se. The comment in this thread may have just been directed solely at the foliage additions in the coming builds, which gives players optical cover to a degree, decreasing the likelihood of being shot. I don't think that there is a causal relationship between the damage dealt and insufficient cover, other than any map related issues that are being dealt with, and so I don't see any tacit admissions of fault regarding sniper damage.. if anything it would indicate that CCP believe snipers have too much opportunity to line up multiple shots. Snipers provide a lot of intangibles that are not readily observed from the battlefield. I really do urge you to play one for a while before passing a judgement on the class mechanic.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.24 14:10:00 - [3] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: 2100 Angels wrote: Snipers provide a lot of intangibles that are not readily observed from the battlefield. I really do urge you to play one for a while before passing a judgement on the class mechanic. I can't, for two reasons: 1. Because of point (1) in my original post 2. Don't have the skillpoints spare to invest, to try it really properly Because you would find it hypocritical? I think your hypocrisy could be overlooked for an informed opinion. You have 3 character slots for a reason
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.24 14:27:00 - [4] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: 2100, given my latest posts (including my agreement that maybe they don't need a damage nerf -- and my suggestion that they be buffed in non-damage areas), do you still disagree with me on any substantial point? Edit: also, bedtime! Haha no, my only disagreement was in relation to a damage nerf. Tools to help me do a more effective job will always get my vote! icyburnz wrote: In my opionion all sniper rifles need a blanket 50% increase in price. Sniper role is the only class were you can avoid death and isk attrition. Its not fair that everyone else can lose more isk than they earn. Snipers are incentivising isk grinding making it a class for people trying to avoid death. Oh yeah? Constantly running with the proto sniper sent me broke Anything more than 2 deaths/game made it very difficult to make ISK.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.25 02:16:00 - [5] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: CCP is a build ahead of you. This build, they said they were going to change all sniper rifles so they need to be charged. Check the patch notes I really hope this isn't true, because if it is, that's it for me. Done with Dust. It isn't, lol. The patch notes for the next build haven't even been released. EDIT: This was an amendment to the Chromosome patch notes: Quote: The charge sniper rifle feature did not make it into the Chromosome update. We are planning more variations for the sniper rifle so expect more variations in the fire mode of sniper rifles in future updates. Seems to indicate that there will be more variations, not necessarily a replacement of standard fire with charge fire.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.25 11:58:00 - [6] - Quote Jathniel wrote: I admit, I've asked for some of those things. Namely, a heavy rifle that can damage vehicles, and a cloaking device that eliminates line-of-sight detection. I like the pocket nuke idea. That's da bomb. All puns intended. lol I think once foliage is introduced, it will provide a lot of optical cover reducing the need for some sort of cloaking device I think adding prone to the mix would be even better.... but I have a feeling that's not going to happen.