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Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2013.01.29 01:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Laser Rifles, like any other weapon of DUST, have two skills incorporated for them. Laser Rifle Operation has a 5% decrease to heat generation per level, and Laser Rifle Proficiency has a 3% stronger cool down per level. Only they don't These skills do NOTHING, and not 'nothing' weak like Swarm Launcher Operation, flat out NOTHING. To test this, I had a Laser Rifle, skilled to Operations IV, and fired it from full to overheat. I got 80% of the charge off (20 ammo remaining). My corpmate leveled into Laser Rifles with a fresh-faced Operations I. He then fired from full to overheat, and got off... 80% of his charge (20 ammo remaining). Noticing something wasn't adding up, I attempted the same feat with the Advanced variant, the ELM-7 Laser Rifle, to see if the supposed bonus of using it existed. I fired it from full to heat, and I got off 84% of the charge (16 ammo remaining).
So, in short. The Laser Rifle Operations skill does NOTHING. The Laser Rifle Proficiency skill does NOTHING. The ELM-7 Laser Rifle works as advertised. No problems here, although just an extra 4% charge isn't really a big difference from Standard.
Please, test this yourselves and post the results here. The more people who notice, the better the chance CCP will fix this. Remember, reload, then fire until you overheat.
ADDENDUM: Adding points to Light Sharpshooter will also increase the MINIMUM range as well as the MAXIMUM, so choosing to have the skill doesn't allow you the ability to fight from further away, it FORCES you to, as it kills your ability to do damage at mid-range. Credit for this find goes to Musta Tornius |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2013.01.29 04:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
I have done further testing backing up the previous scenario. Several other corpmates and other laser using mercs have concurred with the '80 ammo burst.' |
lowratehitman
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
285
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Posted - 2013.01.29 05:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
I have not vested in those skills, only operations to unlock the Laser Rifle. Thanks for sharing this information though, I would not have vested in those skills due to me feeling like they are not even needed. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2013.01.29 07:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
lowratehitman wrote:I have not vested in those skills, only operations to unlock the Laser Rifle. Thanks for sharing this information though, I would not have vested in those skills due to me feeling like they are not even needed.
Yeah, unless you want the prototype rifle really bad, just get lvl I. I recommend using the points you saved for Light Sharpshooter, having range on someone with the Laser is an amazing feeling... gonna make a Laser rundown later while I'm thinking about it.
EDIT: I made this post before conferring with Musta Tornius. Do NOT get Light Weapon Sharpshooter unless you want to completely change how you use the Laser Rifle. |
KalOfTheRathi
CowTek
168
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Posted - 2013.01.29 08:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zero you do realize that most of the Skill levels is simply a way to eat SP, right?
That is why it is set up this way. Everything in DUST is for consumption. Are you thinking like an RPG player or FPS?
Player gains SP, spends SP, gains access to better guns (the Skill bonus is not important) so the cycle can start anew. Or the player decides to use a different type of weapon. First they need to speed SP. A coincidence? I think not. |
The Goram Batman
Forgotten Militia
12
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Posted - 2013.01.29 10:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
The point of the matter, Kal, is that the skills for Laser Rifle aren't doing anything. Yes, it is a commonly understood fact that the higher skilled you are in a certain skill, the better equipment you can get from said skill. It is also a commonly understood fact that when said skill states that it gives a bonus per level, the player earns said bonus for each level invested.
So it's not 'simply a way to eat SP' in this case. You're thinking of Dropsuits, which in fact do NOT give a bonus, and simply allow access to better gear.
But I digress. Thanks for bringing this issue up Zero; although I hate those laser rifles, I hate to see a players SP investment go to waste. Hope CCP addresses this issue. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
136
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Posted - 2013.01.29 11:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
I haven't skilled up my lasers yet, but if this is the case i am very concerned. I'm sure it will all be fixed eventually, but it is good to know for now that there is a problem. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2013.01.29 16:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thank you all for your support. If we could, can people specializing in other weapons test them with their corpmates, see if they have similar issues to this that you just don't notice in the heat of battle? I am personally invested in the Laser Rifle so I noticed the issue here, but I'd hate to think that other skills are useless in the most literal sense of the word. |
Musta Tornius
BetaMax.
265
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Posted - 2013.01.29 16:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
I've used lasers since they were first introduced, lovely weapon. I've done a few threads with this problem highlighted before too. The last fix just enabled overheating for elm where it never used to overheat at all.
So yes you are correct, the laser skills are still bugged or not working and laser weapons and skills need looking over as always :). |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2013.01.29 16:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
I get the feeling the base LR was supposed to overheat with bursts of 64 at level 0 (that makes 80 at LR Operation 5). |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.29 17:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:Zero you do realize that most of the Skill levels is simply a way to eat SP, right?
That is why it is set up this way. Everything in DUST is for consumption. Are you thinking like an RPG player or FPS?
Player gains SP, spends SP, gains access to better guns (the Skill bonus is not important) so the cycle can start anew. Or the player decides to use a different type of weapon. First they need to speed SP. A coincidence? I think not.
This paradigm is incorrect. There are already skills which only unlock gear and currently do nothing else (should be changed but that's a thread of it's own) so clearly a false "+X% to Y" isn't required to list the skill as such it's simply bad form (or a beta bug ) to provide skills which do not apply their listed effects.
Furthermore in a game about managing risk vs rewards having skills/items function below their listed values is heavily broken as it distorts player decision making removing much of the point/motive of the game.
A more accurate rendition is, 'Player gains resource, spends resource, gains use of a mechanical advantage (better gear, skill bonus et al), then the cycle repeats either to maintain options or open up new ones.
The point being when you invest your resources (ISK/AUR/SP) into something you get a reward (i.e. mechanical advantage) for it. Or put more simply, when you invest your time you improve. Investing your time for a listed improvement that does nothing? That's not fun, and thus not the proper option for a game.
0.02 ISK Cross
PS ~ +1 OP Thanks for doing real testing. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 19:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Now if only we could get a DEV to say they've noticed and are fixing it, or at least that they noticed, it'd be just great. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 17:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
The Goram Batman wrote:The point of the matter, Kal, is that the skills for Laser Rifle aren't doing anything. Yes, it is a commonly understood fact that the higher skilled you are in a certain skill, the better equipment you can get from said skill. It is also a commonly understood fact that when said skill states that it gives a bonus per level, the player earns said bonus for each level invested.
So it's not 'simply a way to eat SP' in this case. You're thinking of Dropsuits, which in fact do NOT give a bonus, and simply allow access to better gear.
Couldn't have said it better myself. There are entire skills devoted to just their bonuses, both here and EVE, so I'm glad someone pointed it out. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 21:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
As of the patch on January 30th, nothing has changed. |
Sextus Hardcock
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
63
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Posted - 2013.01.30 21:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
fixing this skill would actually come very close to balancing out the LR.
A Devs comment on this would definately be appreciated by the community. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2013.01.31 05:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Added addendum. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 05:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
I have nothing to add, this is just a shameless bump to help get this noticed by CCP. If they close the thread because of it, at least that means they saw it, so win/win. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 06:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
I bitched about this in a few other threads and there still hasn't been any word from CCP. Apparently, it being broken is working as intended. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 09:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:I bitched about this in a few other threads and there still hasn't been any word from CCP. Apparently, it being broken is working as intended.
Apparent is nice, but I'd rather make sure that they know then just hope. The buyer's remorse for Laser Rifle V is enough incentive, and both to ensure that it is fixed and to make sure no one spends their hard-earned points on a literally useless skill are decent goals. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 10:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I bitched about this in a few other threads and there still hasn't been any word from CCP. Apparently, it being broken is working as intended. Apparent is nice, but I'd rather make sure that they know then just hope. The buyer's remorse for Laser Rifle V is enough incentive, and both to ensure that it is fixed and to make sure no one spends their hard-earned points on a literally useless skill are decent goals.
It's honestly a shame that you go through all of that to get the ELM-7 for (hang on to something) 4% tacked on to the overheat.
Skills don't work ELM-7 doesn't have a damage/range increase Viziam is far too expensive for what you have to go through in order to get it As are the (aforementioned broken) skills.
I have no idea why they fail to mention this week after week in the Bugs/Feedback weekly reports but it's seriously getting irritating. My suggestion? Mass produce threads on the General Discussions so that the moderators have to keep moving them to Feedback/Bugs - then they HAVE to do something about it because it's just annoying the **** out of them otherwise. |
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Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
363
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 11:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I bitched about this in a few other threads and there still hasn't been any word from CCP. Apparently, it being broken is working as intended. Apparent is nice, but I'd rather make sure that they know then just hope. The buyer's remorse for Laser Rifle V is enough incentive, and both to ensure that it is fixed and to make sure no one spends their hard-earned points on a literally useless skill are decent goals. It's honestly a shame that you go through all of that to get the ELM-7 for (hang on to something) 4% tacked on to the overheat. Skills don't work ELM-7 doesn't have a damage/range increase Viziam is far too expensive for what you have to go through in order to get it As are the (aforementioned broken) skills. I have no idea why they fail to mention this week after week in the Bugs/Feedback weekly reports but it's seriously getting irritating. My suggestion? Mass produce threads on the General Discussions so that the moderators have to keep moving them to Feedback/Bugs - then they HAVE to do something about it because it's just annoying the **** out of them otherwise. ELM-7 does have a range and damage increase. Damage increase in the sense that you can fire it longer without overheating. Increase in max range as well as a smaller increase in optimal range. Viziam has no range increase over the ELM-7 and the extra time before cooldown is negated by the fact that you would emtpy the clip before it overheated. Which I believe would also be the case with the ELM-7 if the skills worked properly. CCP just needs to fix the whole damn thing.
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Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
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Posted - 2013.02.01 15:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I bitched about this in a few other threads and there still hasn't been any word from CCP. Apparently, it being broken is working as intended. Apparent is nice, but I'd rather make sure that they know then just hope. The buyer's remorse for Laser Rifle V is enough incentive, and both to ensure that it is fixed and to make sure no one spends their hard-earned points on a literally useless skill are decent goals. It's honestly a shame that you go through all of that to get the ELM-7 for (hang on to something) 4% tacked on to the overheat. Skills don't work ELM-7 doesn't have a damage/range increase Viziam is far too expensive for what you have to go through in order to get it As are the (aforementioned broken) skills. I have no idea why they fail to mention this week after week in the Bugs/Feedback weekly reports but it's seriously getting irritating. My suggestion? Mass produce threads on the General Discussions so that the moderators have to keep moving them to Feedback/Bugs - then they HAVE to do something about it because it's just annoying the **** out of them otherwise. ELM-7 does have a range and damage increase. Damage increase in the sense that you can fire it longer without overheating. Increase in max range as well as a smaller increase in optimal range. Viziam has no range increase over the ELM-7 and the extra time before cooldown is negated by the fact that you would emtpy the clip before it overheated. Which I believe would also be the case with the ELM-7 if the skills worked properly. CCP just needs to fix the whole damn thing.
Yes because that extra 4% mag's worth of damage is going to make such a significant difference.
Disagree, in case you couldn't tell. The ELM-7 needs a bit of a damage increase so as not to make it entirely a range based upgrade over the standard Laser Rifle. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 22:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
I will agree that the ELM feels like it needs to have a bit more, and the Viz needs a tad more for that price, but the biggest issue here is the lack of variants. Plus, we can't truly say how balanced the existing tools are until they fix the skills.
Please people, comment on this thread, even if it's just an agreement, keep it at the top until CCP notices this. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
155
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 00:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Perhaps reduction to heat generation affects the length of time which the laser lasts, not how much ammo is used. Ie. it takes longer to overheat, but uses the same amount of ammo.
Edit: I've never used laser rifles, this assumption was based solely on information here. |
IRuby Heart
DIOS EX.
334
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 01:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
I support this thread, please fix the Laser Rifle skills so that those who use it don't feel like they've been screwed out of SP. |
Jackof All-Trades
Bojo's School of the Trades
79
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 05:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Because of that minimum range nonsense, I haven't been able to allow myself to spec into sharpshooter. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 09:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Welp, CCP says you can't bump threads.
So, Bump. Shameless bump, in fact. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 19:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Welp, CCP says you can't bump threads.
So, Bump. Shameless bump, in fact.
Indeed! Let us bump! |
Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
363
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 20:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Altina McAlterson wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I bitched about this in a few other threads and there still hasn't been any word from CCP. Apparently, it being broken is working as intended. Apparent is nice, but I'd rather make sure that they know then just hope. The buyer's remorse for Laser Rifle V is enough incentive, and both to ensure that it is fixed and to make sure no one spends their hard-earned points on a literally useless skill are decent goals. It's honestly a shame that you go through all of that to get the ELM-7 for (hang on to something) 4% tacked on to the overheat. Skills don't work ELM-7 doesn't have a damage/range increase Viziam is far too expensive for what you have to go through in order to get it As are the (aforementioned broken) skills. I have no idea why they fail to mention this week after week in the Bugs/Feedback weekly reports but it's seriously getting irritating. My suggestion? Mass produce threads on the General Discussions so that the moderators have to keep moving them to Feedback/Bugs - then they HAVE to do something about it because it's just annoying the **** out of them otherwise. ELM-7 does have a range and damage increase. Damage increase in the sense that you can fire it longer without overheating. Increase in max range as well as a smaller increase in optimal range. Viziam has no range increase over the ELM-7 and the extra time before cooldown is negated by the fact that you would emtpy the clip before it overheated. Which I believe would also be the case with the ELM-7 if the skills worked properly. CCP just needs to fix the whole damn thing. Yes because that extra 4% mag's worth of damage is going to make such a significant difference. Disagree, in case you couldn't tell. The ELM-7 needs a bit of a damage increase so as not to make it entirely a range based upgrade over the standard Laser Rifle.
Yea, I'm not saying it's not total crap...I'm just saying it does have a slight damage increase so that might be what CCP wants it to be like. Either way they need to take a look at this and get back to us on something at least. |
Mars El'Theran
Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness
52
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 21:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Maybe it isn't that they aren't applying, but that they are acting as if applied at maximum 100% of the time, even when you don't have them. Personally, I think you should overheat well before you've fired off your full clip. Isn't much sense to having overheat take effect--and wear off--when you are reloading. |
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