Well i dont know how the other tankers are feeling but tank battles are getting boring and dull (tank vs tank). Mainly because its no fun anymore to challenge another tank simply because when you get to a certain lvl you 2 shot allmost any kind off tank. Ive enjoyed the last build more in that kinda aspect. Where you needed multiple hits+the help off your gunners to take out a enemy tank with yours. Another thing is that on the last build i was aible to even challenge a gunnlogi/sagaris with just a decent fit soma. I still remember that ive put some good armor modules, a railgun from salvage and 2 small missile launchers on it and it was ready to go head-head with other tanks. But now with damage mods+skillbook damage its quite impossible to go as a newbie tanker into a fight against a guy who is very high skilled into them. Also those militia tanks are allmost every time 1 shoted. I never remember to 1 shot a good fited militia tank on the last build. Now tank fights are basically who can get a better shot off to the enemy tank which is sitting in his redline. We came a long road downhill at the stage which we have now. extreme powerfull railgun turrets (damage mod+skillbook damage is the reason for that) on quite weak tanks with allmost no resistance. In my opinion get rid off damage mods/skillbook damage bonus, give the tanks their resistance back, buff missiles so that they actually work and buff small blasters to be a viable option. That would ecnourage tankers to actually go out again and not just sitting in their redline. And ive seen allmost no tank vs tank fights this build aswell. And no sitting in the redline and just shoting everything that moves doesnt count as tank fight.

Well i dont know how the other tankers are feeling but tank battles are getting boring and dull (tank vs tank). Mainly because its no fun anymore to challenge another tank simply because when you get to a certain lvl you 2 shot allmost any kind off tank. Ive enjoyed the last build more in that kinda aspect. Where you needed multiple hits+the help off your gunners to take out a enemy tank with yours. Another thing is that on the last build i was aible to even challenge a gunnlogi/sagaris with just a decent fit soma. I still remember that ive put some good armor modules, a railgun from salvage and 2 small missile launchers on it and it was ready to go head-head with other tanks. But now with damage mods+skillbook damage its quite impossible to go as a newbie tanker into a fight against a guy who is very high skilled into them. Also those militia tanks are allmost every time 1 shoted. I never remember to 1 shot a good fited militia tank on the last build. Now tank fights are basically who can get a better shot off to the enemy tank which is sitting in his redline. We came a long road downhill at the stage which we have now. extreme powerfull railgun turrets (damage mod+skillbook damage is the reason for that) on quite weak tanks with allmost no resistance. In my opinion get rid off damage mods/skillbook damage bonus, give the tanks their resistance back, buff missiles so that they actually work and buff small blasters to be a viable option. That would ecnourage tankers to actually go out again and not just sitting in their redline. And ive seen allmost no tank vs tank fights this build aswell. And no sitting in the redline and just shoting everything that moves doesnt count as tank fight.

Also agree that small blasters and small rails are a joke atm
Small rails needs a buff in range and dmg imo. That would make Derpships a viable AV vehicle as well as helpin out tanks as well in AV fights

Small Blasters do less damage than ARs............nuff said

I wish that tanks and other vehicles had a ton of HP, were weak to swarms and forge guns, but could withstand lots of heavy fire from other vehicles and turrets.

For instance, like 5x the amount of hp that they have right now, but AV weapons having only 4x the amount of damage. As long as you kept the turrets the same that they are now, turrets couldn't decimate other tanks unless they were rail guns. rail guns should also have an increase in power so they can be specialized for tanks that are specifically going to be anti-vehicle.

As long as the tank wasn't easily blown up with any type of turret, that's how I invision tanks actually working the way they should.

Well i dont know how the other tankers are feeling but tank battles are getting boring and dull (tank vs tank). Mainly because its no fun anymore to challenge another tank simply because when you get to a certain lvl you 2 shot allmost any kind off tank. Ive enjoyed the last build more in that kinda aspect. Where you needed multiple hits+the help off your gunners to take out a enemy tank with yours. Another thing is that on the last build i was aible to even challenge a gunnlogi/sagaris with just a decent fit soma. I still remember that ive put some good armor modules, a railgun from salvage and 2 small missile launchers on it and it was ready to go head-head with other tanks. But now with damage mods+skillbook damage its quite impossible to go as a newbie tanker into a fight against a guy who is very high skilled into them. Also those militia tanks are allmost every time 1 shoted. I never remember to 1 shot a good fited militia tank on the last build. Now tank fights are basically who can get a better shot off to the enemy tank which is sitting in his redline. We came a long road downhill at the stage which we have now. extreme powerfull railgun turrets (damage mod+skillbook damage is the reason for that) on quite weak tanks with allmost no resistance. In my opinion get rid off damage mods/skillbook damage bonus, give the tanks their resistance back, buff missiles so that they actually work and buff small blasters to be a viable option. That would ecnourage tankers to actually go out again and not just sitting in their redline. And ive seen allmost no tank vs tank fights this build aswell. And no sitting in the redline and just shoting everything that moves doesnt count as tank fight.

To be fair, historically speaking that's an accurate depiction of armoured warfare between AFVs of comparable performance. Most MBTs will affectively destroy/neutralise eachother on the first shot. Whoever lands the first blow is likely to come out the victor.

Now, if you want armoured warfare that is a slugging match you need to look back to early WWII or perhaps WWI for a time when tanks had a bigger bark than their bite. I think you'll find it actually makes for boring gameplay however having played a few sims. Essentially you need to get in close or flank for a chance to penetrate the enemy armour with your inadequate main gun.

Stalking an equally lethal tank is far more enjoyable in terms of sense of achievement when you take out the other guy. Perhaps the issue is that the fights are boring because the 'fear of death' associated with losing your tank is low? Perhaps there needs to be armoured warfare maps where the engagement ranges aren't so suicidally close and unavoidable? Perhaps CCP need to make armoured warfare a bit more sophisticated in Dust? Reward flank shots and introduce some 'sweet spots' where armour is less to reward smart tankers who flank and exploit the weaknesses of enemy equipment while punishing those lazy players that expose themselves to disadvantaged engagements (barrelling down a road with no infantry support and an enemy tank hiding behind rubble in wait)

2 things i wanna see happen

1. tank fights brought back
2. rewards for poppin another tank (av infantry or tanker) buffed significantly. Both WPs and ISK for destroying HAVs is pathetic imo

Tank vs tank is now who saw who 1st

For example yday Meode joined a match in which it was mostly empty and he called down his tank which a 2shot from the sky as it was called in, i nearly did it again but he got it and 2shot me back

Same with metimagic i nearly 1 shot his Sagaris tbh yday but it was 2shot

On any shield tank i can 2 shot it with my current setup, milita gets 1 shot, bolas 2 shots

Missiles are not used, blasters are kinda rare but atm railguns>all mostly due to the fact of the pure damage they give out

Also its more psychological now with the tanks and trying to get the upperhand so you can get that 1st shot off and then that quick 2nd or trying to survive that 1st shot you recieved

Forge guns in general can pretty much 3 shot a shield tank


So atm we do have powerful turret - Railgun, with a weak hull and crap small turrets

TBH the railgun should stay the same damage wise, it should not get nerfed because the forge gun should not be better than a large railgun, increase its turn speed and let it overheat after 3 cont shots

Missiles no random missile spread, maybe decrease direct damage up splash and radius damage, increase range a bit

Blasters seem fine mostly

Tanks resistances need to be put back so more options are available, more tank HP in general id say aswell

Swarms need fixing, no lock on through cover/jumping while firing/missiles bending around cover

Forge gun reduce the range a bit, no splash damage, no jumping while charging either

Also skillbook wise take away the extra damage from skill up turrets and the prof in general, just keep it to the turret skillbook and damage mods tbh and instead give the the turetts and the prof advantages to using that turret like 5% less cooldown to hybrid or whatever

Amror needs active mods, also swarms take away 30% damage against armor

Tank vs tank is now who saw who 1st

For example yday Meode joined a match in which it was mostly empty and he called down his tank which a 2shot from the sky as it was called in, i nearly did it again but he got it and 2shot me back

Same with metimagic i nearly 1 shot his Sagaris tbh yday but it was 2shot

On any shield tank i can 2 shot it with my current setup, milita gets 1 shot, bolas 2 shots

Missiles are not used, blasters are kinda rare but atm railguns>all mostly due to the fact of the pure damage they give out

Also its more psychological now with the tanks and trying to get the upperhand so you can get that 1st shot off and then that quick 2nd or trying to survive that 1st shot you recieved

Forge guns in general can pretty much 3 shot a shield tank


So atm we do have powerful turret - Railgun, with a weak hull and crap small turrets

TBH the railgun should stay the same damage wise, it should not get nerfed because the forge gun should not be better than a large railgun, increase its turn speed and let it overheat after 3 cont shots

Missiles no random missile spread, maybe decrease direct damage up splash and radius damage, increase range a bit

Blasters seem fine mostly

Tanks resistances need to be put back so more options are available, more tank HP in general id say aswell

Swarms need fixing, no lock on through cover/jumping while firing/missiles bending around cover

Forge gun reduce the range a bit, no splash damage, no jumping while charging either

Also skillbook wise take away the extra damage from skill up turrets and the prof in general, just keep it to the turret skillbook and damage mods tbh and instead give the the turetts and the prof advantages to using that turret like 5% less cooldown to hybrid or whatever

Amror needs active mods, also swarms take away 30% damage against armor

(...)

Forge gun reduce the range a bit, no splash damage, no jumping while charging either

(...)

i agree that passive skill damage bonus are too much, i think that hybrids should get a heat buildup reduction and missiles a reduction to the spread.

I know this is old but, I keep ripping apart rails with my blaster... guess I just know how to fit my tank ;D

also their called HAV's stop saying tank it confuses people.

If you came up against any decent rail tanker you would get whacked before you would be able to get close enough

We are now playing the small section map, that include 3 to 5 PI structures. I think Forges doesn't need messing around range or we will have replay from previously build when Forge Gun whose completely useless. Besides, it would be cool if CCP try to fix effective range indicator on Forges in first place - proto Breach always show 100% but it never reach same target that Assault do(400m.~).
I think splash dmg in general thing is something logical on forges . But, hey let's think of it in term of game, Let's Imagine a situation when Forges will not have splash dmg at all - every tank he hitting could be constantly repairing by gang of logibro use tank as a cover, and tanks would be killable only on close or to kill a tank you will required several snipers(hell yea!).
I never thought that I could jump while charging Forge gun, but if you're talking about aim that shake and jump wile charging I need to tell it have no affect on shooting from Forge.

Back to OP: I think that something need to be change, because right now situation of tanks is deadly boring(from Forge gunner perspective). If tank is camping from the hill I cannot shoot him(because each time he get some decent dmg he instantly hide). If tank driver decide to roll from the hill and be a hero at the middle of map, he is dies after 3 to 4 shots. It's cool thing to kill tank it really is, but I would rather owed GÇïGÇïit to tactics I use or intelligence() rather than physical skills of aiming, fiting, character skills and pressing the "R1" button in the regular intervals..
I would like to see DropShip's that actually co-operate with tank drivers on the field and do 'logistic' things for them or LAV that remotely boost they turrets capability. I want that Forge gunner role on field was not limited to that few shots, and if HAV could have support from other vehicle that would be cool if AV guy's have something like that to.

Location is a key factor aswell though aswell as individual player skill. Rails > Everything else isn't really correct. I use blasters as a main weapon, rails for when I feel like denying players vehicles in their redzone. I've come across quite a few Railgun users and the majority die, unless they camp somewhere, like on their redline. I'm a pretty reckless tank driver so one of my main tactics is rushing an enemy tank. I enjoy smashing into the side of an enemy tank, because it knocked them upwards and they're unable to shoot me anymore. Blasters and Missiles (in TvT) seems quite balanced but Rails do hurt quite a bit. Perhaps lowering the damage slightly (not NERF, but TWEAK) whilst keeping the range will make it a useful but balanced weapon.

You on about tweeking the railgun damage? if so its a no because the forge guns already rival it in damage and its a handheld version if anything the railgun should keep its damage and forge should drop a bit

]I hate reading wall texts like that, paragraphs trick the mind and makes it easier to read, try it out.[/u] Anyways -

Tanks 2 shot other tanks? I dont drive 'em, but I'd think maybe CCP would put some kind of damage modifier for vehicle vs vehicle so that one can't just pounce and destroy. If a tank + squad goes up against another tank + squad, and the tanks kill eachother before the squads even fire, that's a problem for the side that lost the tank too quickly.

The forge is fine, especially considering the double drawback of the breaches and inability to hold a charge in the assaults. They're meant to close the gap between infantry and artillery and do their job fine

So in your opinion only tanks should be able to take on tanks? Because that's exactly what would happen if forges got nerfed again. Bringing eve into the mix, steath bombers carry one of the most singularly devastating payloads that allow groups of bombers to tackle larger targets and in no way is the concept of weaker units wrecking hardened targets

SB cloak up big difference tbh, they are for sneaky sneaky attacks, are you asking for a cloak on your heavy suit? but also its a very specialized ship and heavys are not

Forge gun is a handheld rail gun, but large beats a handheld anyday or so it should, the turret is far bigger and should deliver the projectile at a faster rate so more damage is caused, its downside it overheats after 2 cont shots and is crap in CQC

Obviously we're ignoring the speed the damage is done... 1.5+0.8=2.3 seconds. We all know tank vs tank is 2 shots so..,,
1.) you die to 2 forge shots, get a new tank, because you have fail fit.
2.) while carrying a forge you are VERY vulnerable to small arms, snipers, tanks, Dropships ect. Tanks only worry about rails, forge and swarms.

No to Rail dmg nerf
the strongest FGs do more dmg than the strongest rails
nerfing rails would just make it useless as an AV weapon especially since passive bonuses will most def be changed from dmg to something else

Please don't exaggerate. I've never seen a Forge Gun do 5.5K damage like your Railgun tank has. =\

Breach Forge gun base damage is 2500?

most powerful rail gun base damage is 2000?

Forge guns far too OP

55% hybrid turret damage from PASSIVE skills. Rail guns are Op. Forges get 10%. That's all.

You shield tank scrubs don't know what overpowered means. Try taking an armour tank vs CBR7 swarms.

not exaggerating actually

look at Meode's post ill quote it for u



BASE DMG of the best rail is 2052
Breach FG BASE DMG is around 2500

both heavies and tanks have skills to increase dmg passively along with mods
lrn to fit ur stuff

even before CCP added passive dmg to the turret skills FGs still had passive dmg bonuses along with other infantry weapons.

Like i said im fine with FGs as they are atm but no to a rail nerf

You forgot 20% from Marauder skill and 10% from general turrets skill. (sure you need a Surya, but the damage will be 7k or there abouts). I know you run them lovely armour tanks Mav, and respect for fighting the good fight :)

I am waiting for someone to 1 shot 3 mil of tank :D my money is on team Alldin.

Marauder skill only affects racial turrets aka lolmissiles and blasters not rail guns
we are comparing railgun dmg and passive buffs to the best FG dmg with passive buffs and it still stands at 25% increase to a 2500 FG to a 10% increase to a 2052 railgun

PS: Marauder skill was also only added this build
imo only marauder skill and turret op should grant passive dmg bonuses
other turret skills can provide better bonuses than increase in dmg


@ Sephirian how do u know u were gettin hit by breach fgs?
alot of ppl also use assault FGs because of the quick charge time

My bad, thought it was hybrid turrets not just blasters. There's still the accuracy, range, ect that rails have over forges. But that's not what this is about. It's about tank vs tank, and the fact that rail tank is a VITAL part of any team. All the other vehicles are suicide vs a good rail.

Because I try to remember the names of good Heavies and their equipments like I try to remember the names of tank commanders and what their type of tank they drive. There's several heavies that I had consistently run into that use the Proto Breach Forge Gun. Blackwinter is one of those Heavies and he's done a fairly large chunk of damage to me, but I've never been hit for more than 4K damage from him. I think a good hit from him usually runs at about 3700~3900.


Also, does the Marauder skill really not affect Railguns? In the Development videos concerning vehicles I could have sworn that CCP stated that Caldari (Shield Tanks) were specialized into Railguns. O_o

no it doesnt affect rails
CCP Blam said some wrong ****....which is kinda funny since they the ones working on the game

Surya - Bonus to large blasters w/ marauder skill
Sagaris - Bonus to large missiles w/ marauder skill

no one gets a bonus to rails

No one gets a bonus to rails? hm i thought Gallente would tbh but then again Caldari also do use hybrids, maybe they gonna make some more tanks for the races because laser will be Amarr and Minmitar projectile

Gallente are Blasters while Caldari are Railguns, at least that's what the Vehicle Development videos stated. I'd agree with Amarrian being Laser based, and a toss-up for Minmitar to pick up one of the remaining ones.

Now that I think about it, that might cause some irritating imbalances between turrets, especially if a turret is left out of the Maurauder skillbook. 4 races need 2 turrets apiece. CCP needs to make two more turret types and give each racial tank two different turrets to boost. Lol.

caldari gets a bonus to missiles based on what it says INGAME
Minmatar would be projectile so the autocannon will get a bonus to a minmatar tank

Yes, sorry. My mistake. I just have a feeling that it'll be switched eventually, so I spoke without thinking about what it currently is. My bad.

not exaggerating actually

look at Meode's post ill quote it for u



BASE DMG of the best rail is 2052
Breach FG BASE DMG is around 2500

both heavies and tanks have skills to increase dmg passively along with mods
lrn to fit ur stuff

even before CCP added passive dmg to the turret skills FGs still had passive dmg bonuses along with other infantry weapons.

Like i said im fine with FGs as they are atm but no to a rail nerf

LMAO so hard, it's maybe 2500 base damage, but you forgot it reqs 6 seconds(4.5secs cause skillbook lvl5) to load the shot, while loading the shot, you are most of times the targets of snipers, HAV itself, and maybe some other players (it depends on situation), so don't need to complain about forge, your best rail is maybe 2052 (base damage), but it's 2.5 seconds to load, stop complaining about something you don't know....

Anyway the forge gun range is good, no need to nerf, if they nerf forge gun's range, they should nerf large railgun's range that shoots across the map, you know like your stupid ISK HAV battle shooting from redline to the other redline + don't forget to hide, because you will lose a big amount of money.... pitiful HAV player.

where was i complaining?
jesus ppl on these forums need to read and comprehend i CLEARLY said i have NO PROBLEMS with the FG
u say i know nothing about the FG? my corp isnt lacking FG users u know and as a tanker i like to know what things designed to hurt me can do so take a deep breath.....re-read my posts (have someone help u with the english if its hard) and realise i was just pointing out some STATS NOT COMPLAINING.

now lets get to ur useless whining......nerf large railguns range? its a railgun.......
love how u try to insult me saying pitiful HAV player.....this is what happens when ppl speak without comprehending anything.

1. I dont bring my tank out in pubs unless an enemy drops theirs or there is LAV spam
2. I run armor tanks.....u kno....the SHITTIER class of tanks
3. unlike other ***** tankers i dont hide in my redline im not afraid to lose a tank i will be up on an objective supporting u infantry players who cant deal with the enemy loltanks or enemy tanks that sniping u from the redline

now carry on good sir and continue to QQ about tanks

If there are AP & AV missile variations, that could help (something I can see down the road...think un-nerfed Dropships but with total crap direct damage). Lasers could have some kind of wide beam vs concentrated type of differentiation, providing 8 variants? This would give an AV & AP options to all races.

(Snip)

Lasers are medium range weapon and divide into two sub-groups:

Beam lasers have a shorter optimal range than their hybrid railgun counterparts, but do, as a whole, more damage. Advanced coolant technologies allow beam lasers to keep firing for a long time without overheating. The heaviest lasers, battleship-class tachyon beam lasers, are regarded by many as brutally devastating sniper weapons (although their range is limited) and are often used in fleet sieges.

Pulse lasers have better range than blasters, hybrid weapon from the same class, but do considerably less damage. Anyway, pulse lasers are in favor among skilled pilots because they provide good damage/range ratio. By contrast with beam turrets, pulses fire rapidly several times in a cycle.

As described in the technical section, lasers are energy weapons, so they require an exceptionally strong powergrid. Moreover, shooting them expends a huge amount of energy. Most Amarr ships are designed to lower energy weapon capacitor usage, have powerful energy grid and large capacitor capacity. This slightly negates the gluttonous nature of lasers, but automatically makes unwise any attempts to install lasers on non-Amarr spacecraft.

Like all tactical choices in New Eden, there are advantages and disadvantages in using lasers:

Pro

Tech I crystal fitted lasers never run out of ammo and are ideal for deep space bounty hunting and raiding, far away from supply lines.
Even though Tech II and faction crystals suffer from degradation with use, these crystals still outlast the ammo of other weaponry.
Lasers can swap their lens fast, effectively bypassing the 10 second reload that plagues other weapon types. This allows for laser users to quickly change targets.

Con

Laser damage is set to EM and thermal types and is therefore predictable.
Lasers essentially use a ship's capacitor as ammo; this means lasers will tend to drain capacitor fast unless preventative measures are taken.
Due to high capacitor usage, laser boats are more vulnerable to energy neutralizing and have difficulties running a microwarpdrive without the skills to back it up.

Tbqh, I just want to see fully laser tanks. Small turrets might actually be super cool :D

Forges have 70% bonus vs shields. That's why they hit harder than rails.

Stupid imperfect post is stupid. How many times do i have to state you do 100% damage with a forgegun against shield AND armor. The only impression you have that forgeguns hit shield tanks harder is because shield tanks allways have lower total HP then a armor variant. So according to "your 70% bonus" a standard lvl 1 forgegun could do over 2040 damage and with that the capablility to 3 shot any kind off high end tank. Next time when you wield a forgegun hold L1 down, aim at a shield tank and look how it will say: Efficency 100%. In the end railguns and forgeguns have the same efficency rating cause both are hybrid weapons which are equally effective against shields and armor.