I've said the same thing before.
Missile launchers need to decide if they are supposed to be anti-infantry or anti-vehicle, if it was meant to be a middle-ground between the both, it needs to do half as much damage to infantry as blasters, and half as much damage to vehicles as railguns, plus needs a smaller blast radius.

Do not forget the damage mod with 20% damage for the turrets

large missile turrets are supposed to be the type of weapon that can do anything, but cannot excel at any of the specialized jobs the other turrets are built for, yet the large missile turret can do everything, and excel far beyond the jobs of any other turret type.

Let me spell this out...
Basic Large Missile -(x4) 390 direct damage 120 splash
Basic Small missile - 350 direct 200 splash

Turret operations 10% damage
Missile turret operations 15% damage
Missile proficiency 10%
2*20% damage amplifiers.
So that's 75% more damage. Dropships, LAVs and cheap tanks. Oh and if it's hitting armour it gets a 30% bonus.

Then there's the 20% marauder skill.

They made NO change to the basic damage from the last build. They didn't make anything tougher. Codex is a load of ****, and I'm just sick of obviously imbalance things being added. You'll notice no-one runs armour tanks. Because a decent missile shield tank can pop them in 2-3 shots. While they're repping.

And their range needs to be limited. being able to out range a rail gun is stupid. rail guns are supposed to be armor snipers.

Here's why.

A Large blaster turret has short range, is meant to deal with infantry, or light vehicles.

A rail gun is for long range, but it does have it's own range cap. it is meant to take out heavy armor, but can't deal enough damage towards shield tanks to be very effective. it has a low rate of fire, and is very ineffective against infantry.

The large missile turret has infinite range, has a massive splash damage radius. It can deal massive damage to dominate both armor, and shield tanks, it can vaporize infantry, it's rate of fire is stupidly high. It can also act like a massive, long range shot gun from any range. it is also the ideal weapon for AA. Which probably means it'll even be able to out do the auto cannon once it's released.

large missile turrets are supposed to be the type of weapon that can do anything, but cannot excel at any of the specialized jobs the other turrets are built for, yet the large missile turret can do everything, and excel far beyond the jobs of any other turret type.

Why...? why is it like this? it's so stupid. there is no reason to spec into any other turret type.


if this was a game of rock, paper, scissors. The large missile turret would be the laser sword.

Right now the large missile turret is like the replication SL on steroids.

Let me spell this out...
Basic Large Missile -(x4) 390 direct damage 120 splash
Basic Small missile - 350 direct 200 splash

Turret operations 10% damage
Missile turret operations 15% damage
Missile proficiency 10%
2*20% damage amplifiers.
So that's 75% more damage. Dropships, LAVs and cheap tanks. Oh and if it's hitting armour it gets a 30% bonus.

Then there's the 20% marauder skill.

They made NO change to the basic damage from the last build. They didn't make anything tougher. Codex is a load of ****, and I'm just sick of obviously imbalance things being added. You'll notice no-one runs armour tanks. Because a decent missile shield tank can pop them in 2-3 shots. While they're repping.

Yo, in RL missiles are the most powerful weapon: very long rage, massive explosion and blow up everything... I say CCP got it right. It's there,it's up to you to use it instead of complaining. Or.. wait a sec... you don't have the skill?

Yo, in RL missiles are the most powerful weapon: very long rage, massive explosion and blow up everything... I say CCP got it right. It's there,it's up to you to use it instead of complaining. Or.. wait a sec... you don't have the skill?

Yo, in RL missiles are the most powerful weapon: very long rage, massive explosion and blow up everything... I say CCP got it right. It's there,it's up to you to use it instead of complaining. Or.. wait a sec... you don't have the skill?

Let me spell this out...
Basic Large Missile -(x4) 390 direct damage 120 splash
Basic Small missile - 350 direct 200 splash

Turret operations 10% damage
Missile turret operations 15% damage
Missile proficiency 10%
2*20% damage amplifiers.
So that's 75% more damage. Dropships, LAVs and cheap tanks. Oh and if it's hitting armour it gets a 30% bonus.

Then there's the 20% marauder skill.

They made NO change to the basic damage from the last build. They didn't make anything tougher. Codex is a load of ****, and I'm just sick of obviously imbalance things being added. You'll notice no-one runs armour tanks. Because a decent missile shield tank can pop them in 2-3 shots. While they're repping.

Here's why.

A Large blaster turret has short range, is meant to deal with infantry, or light vehicles.

A rail gun is for long range, but it does have it's own range cap. it is meant to take out heavy armor, but can't deal enough damage towards shield tanks to be very effective. it has a low rate of fire, and is very ineffective against infantry.

The large missile turret has infinite range, has a massive splash damage radius. It can deal massive damage to dominate both armor, and shield tanks, it can vaporize infantry, it's rate of fire is stupidly high. It can also act like a massive, long range shot gun from any range. it is also the ideal weapon for AA. Which probably means it'll even be able to out do the auto cannon once it's released.

large missile turrets are supposed to be the type of weapon that can do anything, but cannot excel at any of the specialized jobs the other turrets are built for, yet the large missile turret can do everything, and excel far beyond the jobs of any other turret type.

Why...? why is it like this? it's so stupid. there is no reason to spec into any other turret type.


if this was a game of rock, paper, scissors. The large missile turret would be the laser sword.

Right now the large missile turret is like the replication SL on steroids.

My Madrugar was using a Cycled Blaster with a 10% damage boost and a pair of Cycle Missile turrets with a 20% damage boost, had roughly 6500 ehp with a Heavy IG-L repper, and I took it up against a Gunnlogi with all Accelerated Missile turrets. I died in 3 seconds. I think that's a little imbalanced.

You could have 12000 armour and get killed in 3 shots. Just to make a point about the damage (yeah, explosives do 30% more vs armour).
That's like 6 seconds or so.

Let me spell this out...
Basic Large Missile -(x4) 390 direct damage 120 splash
Basic Small missile - 350 direct 200 splash

Turret operations 10% damage
Missile turret operations 15% damage
Missile proficiency 10%
2*20% damage amplifiers.
So that's 75% more damage. Dropships, LAVs and cheap tanks. Oh and if it's hitting armour it gets a 30% bonus.

Then there's the 20% marauder skill.

They made NO change to the basic damage from the last build. They didn't make anything tougher. Codex is a load of ****, and I'm just sick of obviously imbalance things being added. You'll notice no-one runs armour tanks. Because a decent missile shield tank can pop them in 2-3 shots. While they're repping.

EnglishSnake@
I think you overestimating forge gun capabilities. Firstly it's not push-the-trigger hit-the-target weapon. It takes some time to hit something when you firing from distance, and you have to calculate where target will be in a second(~). You must demonstrate precision, using weapon that is imprecise(there is no zoom-in option, and splash dmg does not matter in killing tank).
Standars BFG hit for 2100 per charge that takes 6 sec, if you have 2 dmg mode it's 2730 per 6sec, so 455dps minus penalty from second dmg mode(I include 10% from weaponry). 455dps may sounds good but it doesn't mean much when your target is mobile and can simply run away in that 6sec period of time.

And I completely approve OP!

It's only 1 sided because of
A.) breach forge wil take atleast 3 shots to drop a good tank. That's about 12 seconds with everything maxed.
B.) damage amplifiers are low slots. Shield tanks only sacrifice nanofibre/PG/CPU upgrades. It's gank & tank for shield tanks.
C.) yeah it's a heck of a lot of SP to get ALL of it. No-one has that much SP yet. But missiles are already dominating everything else.
D.) it'll all fit on a Sica. That's a cheap, no SP required chassis. Except the very expensive marauder skill.

I know there are stacking penalties, and I agree it won't be exactly 40%. But it's close enough.

If there is any argument except "I cost lots and need more SP than my counter" I'd like to hear them. Because a Proto heavy drops very easily to a militia/standard sniper. It's the same deal. That's the whole point in a counter.

It's a 1 sided argument because IMHO, there is no counter argument to this insane damage.

Yo, in RL missiles are the most powerful weapon: very long rage, massive explosion and blow up everything... I say CCP got it right. It's there,it's up to you to use it instead of complaining. Or.. wait a sec... you don't have the skill?

dont nerf the turrets. Just reduce the bonus from the skills by 50%. Like you get 1.5% damage boost for small missile operation and only 1% for the proficency. Another thing is the damage mods i would say instead of 20% use 15% for the top tiers. So leave the stats of the turrets itself alone. And you forget that just 1 small fragmented XT-1 missile turret costs 80.000 ISK. After all you get something good for alot of ISK. be carefull what you want otherwise we end up again with a breach assault rifle.

Yo, in RL missiles are the most powerful weapon: very long rage, massive explosion and blow up everything... I say CCP got it right. It's there,it's up to you to use it instead of complaining. Or.. wait a sec... you don't have the skill?

So now we have paper tanks with stupidly OP turrets on them, invincible dropships with OP turrets and AV totally broken to compound the issue.

This is a good summary of the whole thread. Only thing I would add is the disparity between shield (paper) and armour (rizla+). They should both be cardboard, super tanks being corrugated card.

Forge guns are the most ridiculously OP thing in game at the minute imo. It can snipe, It can AA, It can AV and It can AI. The user can basically hide better and is more maneuverable than a tank. It's no comparison to the tanks railgun, yet it costs a fraction in terms of both ISK and SP investment. It's a joke.

No, they are not ridiculously OP. Borg, I do not understand how you come to that conclusion. Every single heavy drop after 2 headshots from sniper or 40~bullets from AR...

Yo, in RL missiles are the most powerful weapon: very long rage, massive explosion and blow up everything... I say CCP got it right. It's there,it's up to you to use it instead of complaining. Or.. wait a sec... you don't have the skill?

Any decent forge gunner has an SMG/Pistol. Usually, a high level one.

you guys are running out of things to nerf on tanks...

I'm actually advocating giving tanks more base HP. And that splash damage from the large railgun is too low (maybe it would be better if people have them skilled up, but that's a lot of SP needed to make them effective vs weak infantry).

Just look at Dropships lurch. They can be forge gunned down pretty fast. 1 shotting installaions is not cool from my perspective. Or what you can do to a 800k pure tank no gank armour tank. What happens when Surya's get 2 shot from Sagaris? That's not balanced IMHO.

couple points...first of all, i think tank HP is in a good spot. if you want to alter it, play around with skills, mods and teammates. a fully manned tank has 3 people, basically a squad rolling around with high grade teamwork. no wonder they work well. i never see squads of av guys actually work together and when they do, tanks get popped, as it should be.

tanks arent some low profile, supportive little taxi ride like in battlefield, they are full on roles that we spec out for like heavy machine guns and sniper rifles. sometimes, there are simply good tank drivers

couple points...first of all, i think tank HP is in a good spot. if you want to alter it, play around with skills, mods and teammates. a fully manned tank has 3 people, basically a squad rolling around with high grade teamwork. no wonder they work well. i never see squads of av guys actually work together and when they do, tanks get popped, as it should be.

tanks arent some low profile, supportive little taxi ride like in battlefield, they are full on roles that we spec out for like heavy machine guns and sniper rifles. sometimes, there are simply good tank drivers

dont look at a tank's ability to destroy a militia installation and freak out. the tank has to have a special fitting to be able to do that with expensive mods. any forge gunner can also slap on a few mods and chew through installations.

i was asking for the reduction to the splash radius of raolgun shots since E3, and im glad they fixed that, but the splash damage nerf has made railguns obsolete. putting more splash is good, and people will know, if they get shot across the map, tanks arent op, they just got sniped by a good player. snipers can score headshots, but a tank, using a mounted railgun cant hit a body without having every non tank user screaming for the deletion of all things that kills them?

people also need to realize that swarms are the generic AV option. if you are specializing in av, use forges and mines and av nades. those pack punches and with a forge you can put the pilot so off balance that the ship dies upon a crash landing anyway.

i prefer armor tanks but shield tanks have the advantage now. you cannot judge a game as a whole yet until we have most of the pieces yet and there is a lot of stuff still missing for and against tanks. CCP knows this and they are acting accordingly, but everyone and their mother sees it necessary to try and kill tanks on the forums instead of ingame.

one last thing. everyone was so happy to see tanks be so ****** after the patch and there was a lot of gloating on the forums, but once a few of the serious tank drivers learn how to play again, people start whining. not much love for tanks unfortunately.

If you say armour tanks aren't terrible this build you don't have a clue on how to fit a shield tank

U will see my comrad. :) but for someone who hasn't invested in both wouldn't know the power of an armor tank now would he. Hope to see ur tank on the battle field once i get my 500,000 sp. best of luck :).

Armor tanks do suck

10plum or something like that has an armor tank with 10k hp on the armor alone, you know what happened? that got popped stupidly easy because he couldnt move fast enough to escape and my missiles cause damage to armor really well

Missiles are the flavour of the month and why? because of the community complaining about tanks and getting them nerfed

Look what changed - Railgun splash damage reduced so its not anti-infantry anymore but since ppl really dont field tanks as much ther is no need to skill up for em so you have a main turret which is useless, also for large railguns you need to train the small railguns upto lvl4

Turret movement speed - Railgun once again got hit badly with this, its quicker to move the tank than the turret, blaster quickest and missiles in the middle

Really with the railgun you might aswell take that off and put on a heavy with a forge gun since the forge gun can do everything better than the large railgun can do - forge gun can do anti-vehicle anti-infantry anti-dropship anti-sniper even

The resistance and DC getting nerfed, so tanks are more open to getting whacked so missiles again the best option because they have range, they dont have to get close but then again with SL being able to cross the whole map then bend around your cover to hit you thers no point, same with the forge gun which can snipe from across the damn map

Now ppl want the splash damage reduced on missiles, talk about deja vu tbh we had this with the railgun which is now strickly a anti vehicle weapon but missiles have explosive damage which effects an area and its a ******* missile lets not forget i mean would you complain if we had an RPG which had a 5m damage radius, essentially the missiles carry an explosive payload

Just say they do get nerfed, what then for missiles? are we trying to turn this into an infantry only game? are we trying to turn tanks into something useless?

Yall keep going on about missile splash damage but it doesnt always work tbh, ppl can hide behind a small hill and i can hit the front of that hill and the splash doesnt carry over that hill and hit the enemy, hes okay he can crouch behind that and be safe unless i get a direct hit, this is what forge and SL users currently use atm because they know they wont get hit but if you run out into the open or stand next to a wall and i kill you yall cry about splash damage i mean ffs id get the same result if i hit you with an RPG

If you(tank drivers) have a option to replace small turret with module as heavy shield/armor transfer, scaning module, some jamming system, drone control unit or something like that and allow crew members to control it, would you consider to use it?

So from this thread, can we all agree that both vehicles and their counters are screwed up?.

I know this thread was about the large missile, but there's far more going on here tbh. Every single turret in the game needs rebalancing. If it doesn't happen we're gonna see a million and one of these threads and CCP will just ruin the large missile like they did the rail. Which will leave only the blaster and no doubt someone will start whining about that.

If they keep AV in it's current state tanks are gonna need their resistances back. Armour tanks will at least need a armour hardener to match shields, although the armour repper is still better at it's job than a shield booster imo. .

So from this thread, can we all agree that both vehicles and their counters are screwed up?.

I know this thread was about the large missile, but there's far more going on here tbh. Every single turret in the game needs rebalancing. If it doesn't happen we're gonna see a million and one of these threads and CCP will just ruin the large missile like they did the rail. Which will leave only the blaster and no doubt someone will start whining about that.

If they keep AV in it's current state tanks are gonna need their resistances back. Armour tanks will at least need a armour hardener to match shields, although the armour repper is still better at it's job than a shield booster imo.

I'd like to see swarms buffed against dropships and not lock on the land vehicles, but then add in a dumbfire variant for vehicles. You know like an actual RPG works.

no

Here's why.

A Large blaster turret has short range, is meant to deal with infantry, or light vehicles.

A rail gun is for long range, but it does have it's own range cap. it is meant to take out heavy armor, but can't deal enough damage towards shield tanks to be very effective. it has a low rate of fire, and is very ineffective against infantry.

The large missile turret has infinite range, has a massive splash damage radius. It can deal massive damage to dominate both armor, and shield tanks, it can vaporize infantry, it's rate of fire is stupidly high. It can also act like a massive, long range shot gun from any range. it is also the ideal weapon for AA. Which probably means it'll even be able to out do the auto cannon once it's released.

large missile turrets are supposed to be the type of weapon that can do anything, but cannot excel at any of the specialized jobs the other turrets are built for, yet the large missile turret can do everything, and excel far beyond the jobs of any other turret type.

Why...? why is it like this? it's so stupid. there is no reason to spec into any other turret type.


if this was a game of rock, paper, scissors. The large missile turret would be the laser sword.

Right now the large missile turret is like the replication SL on steroids.

All so true about the differences between Rails and Missiles sadly. Rails have extremely limited application now, and even then its only the largest ones that are any use at all.

As for missiles, you found one example where they aren't 100% effective? Thats pretty much the definition of OP.

Everything doesn't need to be nerfed into oblivion (as rails basically have been), but balance is important.

As for real world examples, modern MBT turrets can fire either sabot discarding shot (lets say rail for the sake of argument) or guided missiles in some cases. Is the speed of turret traverse different? No.

I'm not completely sure what CCP hope to achieve with these somewhat arbitrary rules, but basically they are guiding DUST down the EVE path of missiles & shield > everything else.

Edit: Fixed quantities of weapon ammo at least on MBT's, with the ability to resupply at the appropriate places, might well go a long way to balancing this out. Its hard to imagine an HAV carrying the thousands of rounds that seem to get spammed in most battles. Same for LAVs/Dropships.

Armour is crap at the moment. It always was a struggle to kill shield tanks now its impossible if its half decently fit.
I used to run madruger with launcher, 2 large armour reps and 3 eanp. Could toe to toe with shield tanks but I'd have to try and limit there constant damage by circling and hoping he'd miss a few shots. When they made alterations at the the end of the last patch to shields, it turned into an unlikely contest. I'd die every time, I couldn't tank damage fast enough even with the 2 reps, and the massive buffer tank on the shields would always outlast me.


Now I'm a scout. Gallente always get nerfed, caldari always get buffed, minimatar get nothing, amarr get lasers and to much armour. Welcome to new eden