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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
   |
Posted - 2012.10.29 13:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
TBH railguns that i know of dont have a range limit, when i did use them before i was able to shoot down bolas in 2hits maybe 1 i cant remember and plus they are alot stronger than missiles and are pretty much instant, you dont have to wait or calculate the missile flight time by the time it reaches its target. Its like the forge gun you can snipe with it and remove installations in seconds and all the turret ones in 1/2hits its just crap against MI
Now blasters are defo ther to be up in ya face, they can shread a shield tank to pieces and MI aswell prob is its on a armor tank which is currently 2nd best tank to use even tho you can have more tank on it but MI use SL quite a bit and all shield tanks use missiles
Tony Calif wrote:Let me spell this out...
Basic Large Missile -(x4) 390 direct damage 120 splash
Basic Small missile - 350 direct 200 splash
Turret operations 10% damage
Missile turret operations 15% damage
Missile proficiency 10%
2*20% damage amplifiers.
So that's 75% more damage. Dropships, LAVs and cheap tanks. Oh and if it's hitting armour it gets a 30% bonus.
Then there's the 20% marauder skill.
They made NO change to the basic damage from the last build. They didn't make anything tougher. Codex is a load of ****, and I'm just sick of obviously imbalance things being added. You'll notice no-one runs armour tanks. Because a decent missile shield tank can pop them in 2-3 shots. While they're repping.
While this maybe true you have totally forgot to mention how many SP it would take to level up all of it, the maurader book alone is 5mil cost and a 12x skill and can only be used on top tanks which require about 1mil in SP, missle prof is a 5x skill and the 20% extra damage mods have stacking penalties so you would prob get 35-37% i think and also they take up low slots but also is the 20% mods both for small or large turrets or one each? because its a mod what will you leave off the tank to fit it because its gank or tank
Also considering the cap and all the support skills you really need to make the tank to be able to withstand all the current AV out ther which can take out a 750k tank with a 20k AV fit you will need a good few weeks to level up to HAV3 and all the turret skills or you can do that 1st and forget all your support skills but dont expect it to last out ther
In the same timeframe you can quickly level up forge guns and get the breach with its 6.5 sec charge up time and 2000DPS and catch a tank cold by hiding behind a small hill where missile splash will not hit you once and snipe it from the other side of the map
Its a 1 sided example tony |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 15:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:EnglishSnake@ I think you overestimating forge gun capabilities. Firstly it's not push-the-trigger hit-the-target weapon. It takes some time to hit something when you firing from distance, and you have to calculate where target will be in a second(~). You must demonstrate precision, using weapon that is imprecise(there is no zoom-in option, and splash dmg does not matter in killing tank). Standars BFG hit for 2100 per charge that takes 6 sec, if you have 2 dmg mode it's 2730 per 6sec, so 455dps minus penalty from second dmg mode(I include 10% from weaponry). 455dps may sounds good but it doesn't mean much when your target is mobile and can simply run away in that 6sec period of time. And I completely approve OP! 
I aint overesimating anything
The forge gun hits hard and from the otherside of the map near instantly once its charged and even in 6 secs its nothing really, missiles on the otherhand do have flight time so you can gtfotw if you see it coming, a bit like swarm missiles except they happen to bend around the corner and still hit me
Even in CQC he can hide behind a small hill and not even me or my gunners can hit him with the missiles and he just hides until hes charged up, we have to get out to kill him. Even if we do have infantry the forge gun is just as good as killing infantry aswell as tanks
Its a handheld railgun which takes such a small amount of SP to lvl up but can easily destroy a decent tank or at least put it in its place and hold it ther |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 15:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:It's only 1 sided because of
A.) breach forge wil take atleast 3 shots to drop a good tank. That's about 12 seconds with everything maxed.
B.) damage amplifiers are low slots. Shield tanks only sacrifice nanofibre/PG/CPU upgrades. It's gank & tank for shield tanks.
C.) yeah it's a heck of a lot of SP to get ALL of it. No-one has that much SP yet. But missiles are already dominating everything else.
D.) it'll all fit on a Sica. That's a cheap, no SP required chassis. Except the very expensive marauder skill.
I know there are stacking penalties, and I agree it won't be exactly 40%. But it's close enough.
If there is any argument except "I cost lots and need more SP than my counter" I'd like to hear them. Because a Proto heavy drops very easily to a militia/standard sniper. It's the same deal. That's the whole point in a counter.
It's a 1 sided argument because IMHO, there is no counter argument to this insane damage.
A sica? gets whacked instantly tbh to a half decent HAV or even basic AV, you just dont do it its not cost effective even with the SP put in
B) gank and tank depends what you fit, 20% for either small or large turret and the 2nd slot gets a boost in PG/CPU maybe shield with the power diagnostic which is always helpful, you could use a BC2 which will increase all turrets by 6% but its a choice
C) Blasters require for you to get up close plus they tend to be on armor if anything which is missing its active harderners and in general everyone carrys AV stuff which hits armor harder, plus its damage mods are low so they have to choose tank or gank also more than the shield tank, armor tanks are not loved atm so shield with its bonus to missiles are the flavour of the month, once armor gets some love we should see a mix but even so i still see armor tanks being used
No counter? just that you have to put in a fair bit of ISK and also for it to work you need a tank driver to put more isk and SP to skilling up the tank so it doesnt get whacked straight away so it has a decent enough tank for you the gunner to be also useful, not too mention if ther is no tank then your turret skills are mainly useless, compared to the basic forge gunner who puts very little in. As for milita sniper>proto heavy is that if a headshot is OHK? i know the suits are all the same except for slots but tbh it will take what maybe 2-3 shots at least on the heavy since the milita does 185 per shot and a heavy has over 500hp?
I will be in a sagaris by prob next week or so, nearly perfect support skills and basic turret skills since i want to be able to get out of the spawn 1st before i can shoot anything, SP wise will put me well over 4mil and overall give me prob maybe a 1000more shield hp so that forge gunner may have to take 4-5 shots at me, tbh i hope a 20k AV fit is not >2mil tank tbh and that it can take some damage and be more useful but we will see and by then i will be working on my turret skills so it will be intresting to see if i can OHK that heavy forge gunner |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 11:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Armor tanks do suck
10plum or something like that has an armor tank with 10k hp on the armor alone, you know what happened? that got popped stupidly easy because he couldnt move fast enough to escape and my missiles cause damage to armor really well
Missiles are the flavour of the month and why? because of the community complaining about tanks and getting them nerfed
Look what changed - Railgun splash damage reduced so its not anti-infantry anymore but since ppl really dont field tanks as much ther is no need to skill up for em so you have a main turret which is useless, also for large railguns you need to train the small railguns upto lvl4
Turret movement speed - Railgun once again got hit badly with this, its quicker to move the tank than the turret, blaster quickest and missiles in the middle
Really with the railgun you might aswell take that off and put on a heavy with a forge gun since the forge gun can do everything better than the large railgun can do - forge gun can do anti-vehicle anti-infantry anti-dropship anti-sniper even
The resistance and DC getting nerfed, so tanks are more open to getting whacked so missiles again the best option because they have range, they dont have to get close but then again with SL being able to cross the whole map then bend around your cover to hit you thers no point, same with the forge gun which can snipe from across the damn map
Now ppl want the splash damage reduced on missiles, talk about deja vu tbh we had this with the railgun which is now strickly a anti vehicle weapon but missiles have explosive damage which effects an area and its a ******* missile lets not forget i mean would you complain if we had an RPG which had a 5m damage radius, essentially the missiles carry an explosive payload
Just say they do get nerfed, what then for missiles? are we trying to turn this into an infantry only game? are we trying to turn tanks into something useless?
Yall keep going on about missile splash damage but it doesnt always work tbh, ppl can hide behind a small hill and i can hit the front of that hill and the splash doesnt carry over that hill and hit the enemy, hes okay he can crouch behind that and be safe unless i get a direct hit, this is what forge and SL users currently use atm because they know they wont get hit but if you run out into the open or stand next to a wall and i kill you yall cry about splash damage i mean ffs id get the same result if i hit you with an RPG
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 13:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ty 'SweetCheeks' Borg wrote:So from this thread, can we all agree that both vehicles and their counters are screwed up?.
I know this thread was about the large missile, but there's far more going on here tbh. Every single turret in the game needs rebalancing. If it doesn't happen we're gonna see a million and one of these threads and CCP will just ruin the large missile like they did the rail. Which will leave only the blaster and no doubt someone will start whining about that.
If they keep AV in it's current state tanks are gonna need their resistances back. Armour tanks will at least need a armour hardener to match shields, although the armour repper is still better at it's job than a shield booster imo.
I'd like to see swarms buffed against dropships and not lock on the land vehicles, but then add in a dumbfire variant for vehicles. You know like an actual RPG works.
Armor buffers and repper have always healed more mainly because with shield it can passivly recharge where as armor cannot so that why it does more for armor, plus yea active armor hardeners are needed
The SL idea i could roll with, with the dumb fire varient the missile fly straight and hit anything in its path and not fly around cover since its work like an RPG so it would stop the current SL problem for tanks
As for tanks it seem they want to basically make them super weak and useless against infantry but only good enough to fight other tanks, it will get to the point where no one will bother with them, even in this build ther is less than 10 tank drivers, if anything ther is less than 5 regular tank drivers and im the only one who fields a tank consistantly in every match on every map and rarely see anyone do the same
The tank needs its resistances back because armor needs it tbh, plus its another option because all im using are the active ones, DC needs to be made useful aswell
Turret wise tho they did go too far, changing the turret speeds for me is a no tbh plus we have yet to see the other turrets and tanks not too mention EWAR in general
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.10.30 13:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adeptus Ezekiel wrote:EnglishSnake wrote:Armor tanks do suck
10plum or something like that has an armor tank with 10k hp on the armor alone, you know what happened? that got popped stupidly easy because he couldnt move fast enough to escape and my missiles cause damage to armor really well
Missiles are the flavour of the month and why? because of the community complaining about tanks and getting them nerfed
Look what changed - Railgun splash damage reduced so its not anti-infantry anymore but since ppl really dont field tanks as much ther is no need to skill up for em so you have a main turret which is useless, also for large railguns you need to train the small railguns upto lvl4
Turret movement speed - Railgun once again got hit badly with this, its quicker to move the tank than the turret, blaster quickest and missiles in the middle
Really with the railgun you might aswell take that off and put on a heavy with a forge gun since the forge gun can do everything better than the large railgun can do - forge gun can do anti-vehicle anti-infantry anti-dropship anti-sniper even
The resistance and DC getting nerfed, so tanks are more open to getting whacked so missiles again the best option because they have range, they dont have to get close but then again with SL being able to cross the whole map then bend around your cover to hit you thers no point, same with the forge gun which can snipe from across the damn map
Now ppl want the splash damage reduced on missiles, talk about deja vu tbh we had this with the railgun which is now strickly a anti vehicle weapon but missiles have explosive damage which effects an area and its a ******* missile lets not forget i mean would you complain if we had an RPG which had a 5m damage radius, essentially the missiles carry an explosive payload
Just say they do get nerfed, what then for missiles? are we trying to turn this into an infantry only game? are we trying to turn tanks into something useless?
Yall keep going on about missile splash damage but it doesnt always work tbh, ppl can hide behind a small hill and i can hit the front of that hill and the splash doesnt carry over that hill and hit the enemy, hes okay he can crouch behind that and be safe unless i get a direct hit, this is what forge and SL users currently use atm because they know they wont get hit but if you run out into the open or stand next to a wall and i kill you yall cry about splash damage i mean ffs id get the same result if i hit you with an RPG
All so true about the differences between Rails and Missiles sadly. Rails have extremely limited application now, and even then its only the largest ones that are any use at all. As for missiles, you found one example where they aren't 100% effective? Thats pretty much the definition of OP. Everything doesn't need to be nerfed into oblivion (as rails basically have been), but balance is important. As for real world examples, modern MBT turrets can fire either sabot discarding shot (lets say rail for the sake of argument) or guided missiles in some cases. Is the speed of turret traverse different? No. I'm not completely sure what CCP hope to achieve with these somewhat arbitrary rules, but basically they are guiding DUST down the EVE path of missiles & shield > everything else. Edit: Fixed quantities of weapon ammo at least on MBT's, with the ability to resupply at the appropriate places, might well go a long way to balancing this out. Its hard to imagine an HAV carrying the thousands of rounds that seem to get spammed in most battles. Same for LAVs/Dropships.
If they are OP they would work in all situations, tbh they dont they are good for short and medium combat and long distance is hit n miss because of missile flight time |
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