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xprotoman23
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1452
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Posted - 2012.10.03 21:17:00 -
[91] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:Killzone is the only high recoil, high health game I can think of. +1 Proto (getcha forum game up yo)
KZ2 was ahead of it's time. If only Sony let GG keep supporting it rather than releasing the tragedy that was KZ3 (BTW it's closed beta was awesome though) |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.10.03 21:28:00 -
[92] - Quote
I do understand a lot of people prefer the changes. There is so much good in this build I.e. stability, hit detection finally, even lag vs U.S. players seems to have been fixed (I don't know how, or with what Voodoo / black magic they used to fix this).
I just miss the arena shooter feel. It was awesome. Now it feels like a bf clone. We had something which felt unique. It just doesn't have that for me now. |
Goat of Dover
Shadow Company HQ
161
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Posted - 2012.10.03 21:32:00 -
[93] - Quote
Brahma El Indio wrote:I still haven't read or experienced anything that puts recent changes in a negative light.
The changes are for the better.
Yes the changes do make things easier. But a gun with very little recoil at the first skill Lv does not make for a very balance weapon array.
I do agree with the increase to the Mass Driver it is nice to have a somewhat AV weapon that is not a heavy weapon that has a main use as an anti personal weapon/suppressor |
Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
202
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Posted - 2012.10.03 22:41:00 -
[94] - Quote
Why do people keep associating strafe, and how well you utilize this one mechanic, with skill? It's like the ONLY means by which to know if you are skilled or not is by how well you strafe. Aiming? Meh. Intelligent use of cover? Meh. Tactical intelligence? Meh. Could go on, but one's ability at strafing, and the degree to which a system allows strafing to happen, is not the sole indicator of skill.
Yes, strafing needs to be addressed. Heavies strafing as quickly as scouts is dumb. Yes, if this is how CCP fixed hit detection then they didn't fix hit detection, they just concealed its failings. Yes, if the only reason they reduced strafing speed is because they couldn't fix hit detection, then that's a bad reason. Still doesn't make it the primary or even an important means of measuring skill. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.10.03 22:59:00 -
[95] - Quote
Aim > Strafe Look @ CS, a VERY realistic game. Strafing is dealt with by decreased weapon accuracy. Tbh, in CS, if you want to shoot anyone, you want to be crouching and stationary, and burst fire. That's quite a lot to add to the mechanics to all weapons, though I posted about that at sometime. However it became clear we had good arena mechanics that allowed for tactical gameplay. Strafing isn't a "skill" it's simply how the game allows you to interact with your surrounding. It's part of movement.
Listen to the intro video. Fast and frantic the women said. Not slow and meditated. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
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Posted - 2012.10.03 23:49:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:Aim > Strafe Look @ CS, a VERY realistic game. Strafing is dealt with by decreased weapon accuracy. Tbh, in CS, if you want to shoot anyone, you want to be crouching and stationary, and burst fire. That's quite a lot to add to the mechanics to all weapons, though I posted about that at sometime. However it became clear we had good arena mechanics that allowed for tactical gameplay. Strafing isn't a "skill" it's simply how the game allows you to interact with your surrounding. It's part of movement.
Listen to the intro video. Fast and frantic the women said. Not slow and meditated.
Played CS for a decade and at high level, you dont see many people crouching to fire. It's more small smart straf with short burst between. Most of the time with use of cover and while walking not running.
But it is fine for cs where 1 bullet in the face is enough or a good 3 bullet burst in the chest\neck insta kill the guy. Dust, with its many layer of HP and regen doesnt fit that system imo.
yet i agree with you regarding movement. And no, we never said that straffing is the only skill that defines a good player. BUT what most fail to understand is that also enhance the skill needed in aiming. The faster people move, the more accurate you need to be. At the moment, tracking a target is piece of cake. Thus, shoot first kill first becomes a general rule. Also, it favors the one with the best overall equipment wich is bad. Being able to overwhelm a player with movement should be part of the game.
Doesnt mean that playing smart isnt required. It adds another layer : you would need to have : good aim, smart play and good movement.
It's not THE skill. It's A skill that just vanished with this build. |
Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
202
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Posted - 2012.10.03 23:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
BLACKBERRY TORCH wrote:He said bad company, which was an amazing game.
Amen.
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Ignatius Crumwald
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
475
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Posted - 2012.10.04 00:09:00 -
[98] - Quote
I won't go as far as to say that skill is gone from the game, but a lot of what made fire fights fun is gone and controls in general feel much more sluggish and unresponsive.
The strafe speed nerf makes sense in the context of strafing needing to be several percentage points south of forward motion in terms of top speed - I would even suggest faking the effect of momentum by having the current movement speed figure negatively on acceleration on directional changes, rather than a real application of momentum by the physics engine that would be not only resource intensive but also difficult to apply properly and probably end up feeling too floaty.
I compared movement in this game to fighting on office chairs. This un-natural movement combined with the poor hit detection made for a frustrating game at times. However, this definitely needs to rounded off quite a bit. Movement is now wholly unnatural and unsatisfying. |
Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
202
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Posted - 2012.10.04 00:15:00 -
[99] - Quote
Ignatius Crumwald wrote:I won't go as far as to say that skill is gone from the game, but a lot of what made fire fights fun is gone and controls in general feel much more sluggish and unresponsive.
The strafe speed nerf makes sense in the context of strafing needing to be several percentage points south of forward motion in terms of top speed - I would even suggest faking the effect of momentum by having the current movement speed figure negatively on acceleration on directional changes, rather than a real application of momentum by the physics engine that would be not only resource intensive but also difficult to apply properly and probably end up feeling too floaty.
I compared movement in this game to fighting on office chairs. This un-natural movement combined with the poor hit detection made for a frustrating game at times. However, this definitely needs to rounded off quite a bit. Movement is now wholly unnatural and unsatisfying.
Well stated. Also, strafing should affect accuracy. Walking/running sideways and shooting is awkward. |
Ignatius Crumwald
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
475
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Posted - 2012.10.04 00:49:00 -
[100] - Quote
Illuminaughty-696 wrote:Well stated. Also, strafing should affect accuracy. Walking/running sideways and shooting is awkward.
All movement currently makes accuracy lower. when you move you will notice the cross-hairs open wider. If you are saying this should be more severe on strafing, I would disagree.
Moving slower, and thus taking less frequent steps gives you more time to adjust your aim for disruptions caused by taking steps than while jogging or sprinting. Sidestepping in this case would also be more of a series of jumping jack like hops which would be easy for a skilled soldier to adjust for - We are talking about athletic individuals here. |
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Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
202
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Posted - 2012.10.04 00:56:00 -
[101] - Quote
Ignatius Crumwald wrote:Illuminaughty-696 wrote:Well stated. Also, strafing should affect accuracy. Walking/running sideways and shooting is awkward. All movement currently makes accuracy lower. when you move you will notice the cross-hairs open wider. If you are saying this should be more severe on strafing, I would disagree. Moving slower, and thus taking less frequent steps gives you more time to adjust your aim for disruptions caused by taking steps than while jogging or sprinting. Sidestepping in this case would also be more of a series of jumping jack like hops which would be easy for a skilled soldier to adjust for - We are talking about athletic individuals here.
lol. I've been playing for a decent bit now and I never really noticed that. In that case, strafing accuracy changes are likely unneccessary. However, I stand by the basic premise that strafing in real life, especially at the speed we used to be able to do so as a scout, is super awkward, especially on rough terrain. But, this is a game, and I don't feel like tripping over my own feet just because I was chewing bubble gum while I played. |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
648
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Posted - 2012.10.04 01:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
I think the AR could use a LOT more recoil tbh, but decreased by skills. As I say in every thread like this, the "Trinity" that would help is
1. A small buff (10-20%) to lateral strafe speed
2. Heightened recoil on assault rifles, decreasable by skills
3. Tiered strafe speeds for dropsuits; Scout - fast, Assault - moderate, logi - moderate, heavy - slow.
This would bring more skill and unpredictablity to gunfights without going to one extreme or the other.
A compromise, if you will. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:00:00 -
[103] - Quote
No compromise from me I'm afraid. And I do exaggerate a little. There is a slight decrease in accuracy when moving. But it's certainly not enough to give someone standing still an advantage. Nor should it in Dust.
@Laurent I haven't played CS for years. I totally agree Dust wouldn't work with recoil too high. But last build felt like an arena shooter, such as Quake/Unreal. It's crazy how changing movement changes the game play to this degree. |
Goat of Dover
Shadow Company HQ
161
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:51:00 -
[104] - Quote
J'Jor Da'Wg wrote:I think the AR could use a LOT more recoil tbh, but decreased by skills. As I say in every thread like this, the "Trinity" that would help is
1. A small buff (10-20%) to lateral strafe speed
2. Heightened recoil on assault rifles, decreasable by skills
3. Tiered strafe speeds for dropsuits; Scout - fast, Assault - moderate, logi - moderate, heavy - slow.
This would bring more skill and unpredictablity to gunfights without going to one extreme or the other.
A compromise, if you will.
+1 to this. I never used a lot of strafing myself I am more of a cover guy myself which might be why I am better at this build since strafe is basically dead. But adding to it would help me get to cover faster. The AR needs it bad but I think were it is right now would be a great max AR skill lv area. Lastly that is what I have been telling my buddies. I personally wonder why they cant make strafe be directly affected by your movement speed(giving scouts a little boost too). |
Phoenix Montana
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.10.04 03:36:00 -
[105] - Quote
I don't strafe much, but I have noticed that trying to aim is like moving through molasses. Oh, someone is shooting me in the back? Let me turn around and return fire... just a second... almost there... oh, I'm dead. The first match I played after the update, I found some reasonable cover and adjusted the sensitivity on my controller from 60 to 80. I'ts still too slow. As for the (lack of) AR kick, it used to be much worse (better?). They reduced it (I'm pretty sure that was in the patch notes) and probably went a little too far.
Less directly related to the thread: I am continually amused by the people who think the game is ruined because they don't like a change that was made to the BETA. I played Eve Online for a couple years and the forums over there are full of complaints just like this one about patches. That game has survived nearly 10 years and still going strong, I don't think Dust will be killed in beta because things weren't perfect after the [latest] release. I got excited about Dust because it sounded more like a semi-realistic, tactical, team emphasized shooter. I'll be the first to admit that I lack skill when it comes to bouncing around like a rabbit, especially without a keyboard/mouse. That's why I stick to the hills with my sniper rifle and why I'm happy to finally be able to choose Skirmish over Ambush. When I get used to the whole console controller thing I'll definitely be working with teams. As for skill, I'd say it takes about equal skill to hit a moving target as it does for said moving target to bounce around in the open, strafing circles around all comers. You prefer skill in movement, I prefer skill in patience and precision... and cover.
Sorry, this turned out a lot longer than planned. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2012.10.04 07:47:00 -
[106] - Quote
Maybe have strafe speed increase with use of stamina, have the sprint button boost strafe speed as it drains stamina like if sprinting. So, it would be very hard to strafe and bunny hop at same time.
Having inertia to make rapid direction changes difficult, while boosting strafe speed maybe.
Also, instead of cover vs run-n-gun, why not both. Add cover like metal gear or killzone, could also use sprint button to stick to cover if stationary while held(no stamina drain of course). Having a cover system and the quick arena type strafe(even if limited to bursts) would make for some unique gameplay.
The skill that unlocks the sprint speed module should give boost to sprint speed, to fit pattern of other skills in category and allow a little quicker movement to cover/across big maps.
Maybe increased strafe speed could be a skill, so that play style needs sp to unlock?
Suit strafe speed should vary with suit, as said above. Weapons held already modify it. The heavy should have slowest strafe, but I see no reason it couldn't match the forward speed. Other suits shouldn't be able to strafe at max forward speed. So, I suggest scout with highest strafe, but lowest percent of forward speed, with heavy at lowest strafe but at 100% forward speed, logi and assault in between. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
136
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Posted - 2012.10.05 17:17:00 -
[107] - Quote
All in all a good post. |
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous
SyNergy Gaming
242
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Posted - 2012.10.05 17:40:00 -
[108] - Quote
KingBabar wrote:by reducing the strafe speed... Well done indeed, now pat yourselves on the back and acknowledge what a great job you've done.
I'm especially thrilled about it since it will turn the game even more towards "blob warfare", I'll unlock a Logi suit tonight.
Please continue to cater to players who isn't as good as me at aiming and moving about, they need all the help they can get.
So........ by hit detections being bad, you were better at aiming, and when hit detection is fixed, your a bad player?
If you thought last build, with hit detection issues, was better in terms of hit detection, then you are a very strange and philosophically warped individual
Last build, a scout suit player could just zig zag and use the hit detection issues to his favour, now a person zig zags and its still a smart and typical FPS tactic (and those who complain against strafe speed im against) but now its not the engine ******* peoples aim up. |
Lonewolf514
79
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Posted - 2012.10.05 17:59:00 -
[109] - Quote
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote:KingBabar wrote:by reducing the strafe speed... Well done indeed, now pat yourselves on the back and acknowledge what a great job you've done.
I'm especially thrilled about it since it will turn the game even more towards "blob warfare", I'll unlock a Logi suit tonight.
Please continue to cater to players who isn't as good as me at aiming and moving about, they need all the help they can get. So........ by hit detections being bad, you were better at aiming, and when hit detection is fixed, your a bad player? If you thought last build, with hit detection issues, was better in terms of hit detection, then you are a very strange and philosophically warped individual Last build, a scout suit player could just zig zag and use the hit detection issues to his favour, now a person zig zags and its still a smart and typical FPS tactic (and those who complain against strafe speed im against) but now its not the engine ******* peoples aim up.
good scouts were unhittable last build, most of the whines came from people who couldnt lead targets. i played with kb/m and have no issues with leading shots, maybe controller players couldnt x,y axis fast enough? or not balanced enough
i just realized where i heard the eve music before (similar) while listening to old songs on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFCEii1yIls the opening riff |
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