DUST Search - [Suggestion] 3 Part recipe for balancing precision strikes.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

Longshot Ravenwood wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

I'm not exactly sure what the point you're making is, might be how you phrased it.

If getting a strike is a collective effort, why shouldn't the reward be shared as well? Would you prefer if the points from the assists were proportional to the war points contributed by each squad member?
Can you link the source for corporations saving up war points? I was sure war points was suppose to be non-persistent.

Already linked in red above the quote, but didn't get enough information to know how the system itself works.

The points for the assists could be proportional to the warpoints contributed (which would make sense - or be allocated in a lottery fashion randomly based on the proportions for warpoints contributed), but it still depends on what's actually being done on the back-end.

It looks like it'd be a nice addition, but we'd want to make sure it wasn't going to be an abuseable reward for WP farmers (since part of your SP gain is based on the WP you rake in).

The quote you linked said nothing about the war points earned in one battle being usable to call strikes in another battle. It only said that basically once you have enough points to call a precision strike, you can choose not to spend it, and then wait for war points to keep getting higher so you can use it for to call an orbital strike. It never said that the orbital strike would be in a different battle.

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.03 01:48:00 - [1] - Quote Everyone is sick of the overused strikes. They are a serious balance issue, they happen way too often, and just let people pad their their stats without any real effort. I propose this 3 part solution based on ideas I found around the forums. 1_ Double the war points required to use them. It way too easy to get one right now. EDIT: Maybe doubling is too much, a 50% increase would suffice i think. EDIT: Another way to limit them could be with a cooldown that affects the entire team. For example, each team can only use a strike once every 4 minutes. 2_ War points earned from strike kills should not contribute to obtaining more strikes. If strikes contribute to getting more strikes, then it just leads to a vicious cycle. (credited to DUST Fiend) 3_ Kills from strikes should only count as assists, since all the strike's caller did was point at an area on the map. The whole squad should also get an assist for every strike kill, since it was their collective war points that led to the squad leader obtaining the strike. (credited to Longshot Ravenwood, and DUST Fiend) EDIT: The squad leader doesn't earn them on his own, its based on the squad's collective ar points. Why should he be the only one who gets rewarded? The squad leader might not even do anything at all in the game, and just get a strike by virtue of having good squad members.
Jariel Manton SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 210	Posted - 2012.10.03 01:53:00 - [2] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Everyone is sick of the overused strikes. They are a serious balance issue, they happen way too often, and just let people pad their their stats without any real effort. I propose this 3 part solution based on ideas I found around the forums. 1_ Double the war points required to use them. It way too easy to get one right now. 2_ War points earned from strike kills should not contribute to obtaining more strikes. If strikes contribute to getting more strikes, then it just leads to a vicious cycle. (credited to DUST Fiend) 3_ Kills from strikes should only count as assists, since all the strike's caller did was point at an area on the map. The whole squad should also get an assist for every strike kill, since it was their collective war points that led to the squad leader obtaining the strike. (credited to Longshot Ravenwood, and DUST Fiend) Any real effort? It's a reward for teamwork, doing what the squad orders are and staying grouped. I agree that war points earned from strikes shouldnt contribute that would solve much of the problem in my opinion. On the last point... the squads should get assists.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.03 01:55:00 - [3] - Quote It counts as a KILL. No effort is put in to actually KILL someone. All you do is pick a place on the map, you're not the one doing the KILLING, so you should not get a KILL.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.10.03 01:58:00 - [4] - Quote They need to cost more WP, definitely. They're too common now. There should be zero credit of any kind for kills via orbital strikes. No WP earned, no kills recorded, no assists, no points of any kind. OSs should be entirely strategic things used to take out a tank camping somewhere safe, or a particularly tenacious infantry squad, or something like that. The person calling in the strike or their squad should not get any kind of benefit from the strike beyond the fact that X enemies are now dead.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.03 01:58:00 - [5] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Everyone is sick of the overused strikes. They are a serious balance issue, they happen way too often, and just let people pad their their stats without any real effort. I propose this 3 part solution based on ideas I found around the forums. 1_ Double the war points required to use them. It way too easy to get one right now. I'm not sure if I agree, but then again I just learned today how to call them in at all. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: 2_ War points earned from strike kills should not contribute to obtaining more strikes. If strikes contribute to getting more strikes, then it just leads to a vicious cycle. (credited to DUST Fiend) I'm forseeing this as the result of separating warpoints into two types, the kind that can be spent on orbital strikes and the kinds that can't: Future Forum Post: I Have XXXXXX Warpoints But I can't Use them!?!? (Noob/Troll): My corporation's saved up a riddiculous number of warpoints, but we can't use any of them for calling in orbital strikes. WFT CCP, why do you hate us? Let us use our WP for WP stuff. (The actual Isue) -- The WP balance for the Corp is a generic "total warpoints" & one of the things warpoints are used for are orbital strikes. Now we can't plan for future orbital strikes using our total warpoints because we can't identify what portion of them are actually eligible for orbital strikes. Also, what are the other things that warpoints can be used for? Lavs, dropships, & tanks? Because I haven't ever seen any WP costs for calling them in that I've noticed... KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: 3_ Kills from strikes should only count as assists, since all the strike's caller did was point at an area on the map. The whole squad should also get an assist for every strike kill, since it was their collective war points that led to the squad leader obtaining the strike. (credited to Longshot Ravenwood, and DUST Fiend) I saw DUST Fiend's post about that and I'm just going to bring up here what I brought up there: 1st -- I can see reward-wise why this would be nice. If your team is launching 6-12 O/S per match w/ 1-4 kills per O/S, then everyone on the team gets an extra 150-1200 WP for SP calculation. 2nd -- I can see how easily abused this would be & how much easier it would be to convince an entire team to farm O/S for an entire match. 3rd -- The reward for earning warpoints is that you can use them in battle to help out. The warpoints can be saved from one match to another on a corporate level. This means that you could save up enough warpoints to make it rain for an entire match & rack up a ridiculous number of points (like in #2 except blown to a ridiculous proportion). All said, I agree that O/S should be kill assists for the person calling in the strike -- not kills for anyone whose boots are on the ground...but I'm not convinced that everyone on a team should get points for a single O/S being called in.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.03 02:04:00 - [6] - Quote The squad leader doesn't earn them on his own, its based on the squad's collective ar points. Why should he be the only one who gets rewarded? The squad leader might not even do anything at all in the game, and just get a strike by virtue of having good squad members.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.10.03 02:16:00 - [7] - Quote Considering you're just clicking once on the map it's absurd that even the squad leader is getting assists. The only person who should get any kind of recognition for the kills are the warbarge/whatever driver actually firing the shots.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.03 02:16:00 - [8] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The squad leader doesn't earn them on his own, its based on the squad's collective ar points. Why should he be the only one who gets rewarded? The squad leader might not even do anything at all in the game, and just get a strike by virtue of having good squad members. Is it more fair to run the risk that one "bad squad leader" might take all of the points for an orbital strike for himself? Is it more fair to doubly reward someone for farming WP then having an orbital strike give them even more WP (even if it can't be used for an O/S)? Is it more fair to doubly reward someone for being a better player by letting all of the WP they've earned by dominating a match that turns into an O/S then provide addition WP to everyone in their squad? Also, when people started complaining about Orbital Spam... CCP Contra Merc wrote: Take in consideration that the War points can later be used for an Orbital Strike. So you have the choice to save them. So that begs the question of how they're saved & allocated for use. Depending on how they're saved there may be situations where the warpoints won't have even been earned by the players who are in the match...would it really be fair to provide extra rewards for the efforts of people who aren't even present to people who are terrible enough that they need to call in an orbital strike to have a fighting chance?
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.03 02:28:00 - [9] - Quote I'm not exactly sure what the point you're making is, might be how you phrased it. If getting a strike is a collective effort, why shouldn't the reward be shared as well? Would you prefer if the points from the assists were proportional to the war points contributed by each squad member? Can you link the source for corporations saving up war points? I was sure war points was suppose to be non-persistent.
Equaniox Twilight Mining and Logistics Nulli Tertius 4	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:32:00 - [10] - Quote TLDR, i think once its live you will need someone in eve to be able to call a strike. so we suck up the abuse now and it wont be so bad later.... maybe

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:37:00 - [11] - Quote Another way to limit them could be with a cooldown that affects the entire team. For example, each team can only use a strike once every 4 minutes.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:39:00 - [12] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I'm not exactly sure what the point you're making is, might be how you phrased it. If getting a strike is a collective effort, why shouldn't the reward be shared as well? Would you prefer if the points from the assists were proportional to the war points contributed by each squad member? Can you link the source for corporations saving up war points? I was sure war points was suppose to be non-persistent. Already linked in red above the quote, but didn't get enough information to know how the system itself works. The points for the assists could be proportional to the warpoints contributed (which would make sense - or be allocated in a lottery fashion randomly based on the proportions for warpoints contributed), but it still depends on what's actually being done on the back-end. It looks like it'd be a nice addition, but we'd want to make sure it wasn't going to be an abuseable reward for WP farmers (since part of your SP gain is based on the WP you rake in).
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:48:00 - [13] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I'm not exactly sure what the point you're making is, might be how you phrased it. If getting a strike is a collective effort, why shouldn't the reward be shared as well? Would you prefer if the points from the assists were proportional to the war points contributed by each squad member? Can you link the source for corporations saving up war points? I was sure war points was suppose to be non-persistent. Already linked in red above the quote, but didn't get enough information to know how the system itself works. The points for the assists could be proportional to the warpoints contributed (which would make sense - or be allocated in a lottery fashion randomly based on the proportions for warpoints contributed), but it still depends on what's actually being done on the back-end. It looks like it'd be a nice addition, but we'd want to make sure it wasn't going to be an abuseable reward for WP farmers (since part of your SP gain is based on the WP you rake in). The quote you linked said nothing about the war points earned in one battle being usable to call strikes in another battle. It only said that basically once you have enough points to call a precision strike, you can choose not to spend it, and then wait for war points to keep getting higher so you can use it for to call an orbital strike. It never said that the orbital strike would be in a different battle.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:52:00 - [14] - Quote I can get on board with alot of this. Currently its too easy to get a ton of strikes. I still think you should get credit for the kills though.
Ziero01 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 11	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:05:00 - [15] - Quote From what I can tell, the biggest issue with this OS problem isn't the actual usage of the strikes, but the method used to obtain the points for these strikes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the basic idea is to call in a friendly vehicle behind the safe zone lines, run it into stuff to beat it up, then repair it back to full. A process which allows a small group of people to avoid any kind of danger at all while gaining absurd amounts of WP and SP. Personally, if this is really how it works, I think the simplest fix is to make it so you don't gain any kind of points from repairing friendly/non-enemy related damage to vehicles. I know this was used in other games, where you couldn't simply gain lots of skill ups and boost yourself by damaging friendlies and then healing them. If these people weren't able to gain so much WP from using what is clearly a blatant exploit, we wouldn't see half the amount of OS spam we get. Combine that change with a Squad based time limit on OS calls and it would balance out the attacks so they're something you first have to earn and are something that can't be spammed back to back to back by a single person for the entity of a match. Also, if the WP needed for this strike are gained by the squad as a whole, then the whole squad, including the leader, should get assist points and nothing more.
Xiree Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 55	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:06:00 - [16] - Quote " Hey!! Hey, You in the TANK!!! You can't.... YOU CAN'T do THAT!!!! shooting at me all with explosives. It shouldn't kill me when shot right away -- YA KNOW!!! This is like, like a unfair portion... An iT just needs to go." ^^^^ That is what I see when I read a lil whimper of people angry from the mightiness of weapons. Some dude just throws his gun down ... Gets all pouty face and stomps up complaining. This is not a campaign game(single player) were balance has to be exact... Some things should be freaking awesome and almighty. BUT there has to be a way to counter it. Maybe there should be a jammer you could get (OH WAIT THERE IS A JAMMER YOU CAN GET to cloak yrself from radar) . So please before you rally up your buddies or names to come in horde posting. Think of a counter-method... What would be cool to counter-react that weapon? Maybe like a quark gun... That shoots a fuzed quark that is the size of a pea and you could shoot it up into the sky to blow up the ship thats firing on you. A quark is the inside of an atom... Impossible to see with the naked-eye. In theory a quark is what makes the BOOM in the atomic bomb, its all that quark-energy released. It would take a large amount of energy to charge a quark to a unimaginable size(like a pea)... Cause a quark gun would be just shooting a large atom(figurativly speaking). SO it wouldn't have to be very -- big to do some drastic damage. Upon that quark touching another physical atom.... A MASSIVE BOOM happens from it bouncing off another atom(Physical mass) and all that energy is released. A quark would also fly so slow, for its mass is pure energy and it would literally drag its mass through space. Oh well, thats my idea of a quark gun -- With some fun particle phyics theory there. Quit whining. Think of a counter weapon before you cry and go pouty face about somethin blowing you up. I have numerous people only aim at me with the precision strike... Quite the waste, but then not... Cause I'm a faster shot than anyone. I will also just use the charge rifle to give me a slight handicap. I'M NOT WHINING.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:12:00 - [17] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Longshot Ravenwood wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I'm not exactly sure what the point you're making is, might be how you phrased it. If getting a strike is a collective effort, why shouldn't the reward be shared as well? Would you prefer if the points from the assists were proportional to the war points contributed by each squad member? Can you link the source for corporations saving up war points? I was sure war points was suppose to be non-persistent. Already linked in red above the quote, but didn't get enough information to know how the system itself works. The points for the assists could be proportional to the warpoints contributed (which would make sense - or be allocated in a lottery fashion randomly based on the proportions for warpoints contributed), but it still depends on what's actually being done on the back-end. It looks like it'd be a nice addition, but we'd want to make sure it wasn't going to be an abuseable reward for WP farmers (since part of your SP gain is based on the WP you rake in). The quote you linked said nothing about the war points earned in one battle being usable to call strikes in another battle. It only said that basically once you have enough points to call a precision strike, you can choose not to spend it, and then wait for war points to keep getting higher so you can use it for to call an orbital strike. It never said that the orbital strike would be in a different battle. Missed that -.o so that makes me feel betterish about it. I'm still very unfamiliar with the mechanics for the strikes, are the WP gains required to call in a strike Squad Specific or Team Specific? If it's squad specific I could see the possibility of giving everyone on a 4 man squad 25 point kill assists if they didn't count toward another strike. It the WP are team specific I'd rather see everyone on the team get a single bonus for having contributed WPs (+15 or +25) as a Bombardment Assist....but in either case I think the reward for the majority of the team is still going to be that they got to have an OS called in to help them out (and it encourages the Squad Leader to set objectives to help accrue the WP faster for themself).
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:16:00 - [18] - Quote WP gains required to call a strike is squad specific.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.10.03 09:39:00 - [19] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Everyone is sick of the overused strikes. They are a serious balance issue, they happen way too often, and just let people pad their their stats without any real effort. I propose this 3 part solution based on ideas I found around the forums. 1_ Double the war points required to use them. It way too easy to get one right now. EDIT: Maybe doubling is too much, a 50% increase would suffice i think. EDIT: Another way to limit them could be with a cooldown that affects the entire team. For example, each team can only use a strike once every 4 minutes. 2_ War points earned from strike kills should not contribute to obtaining more strikes. If strikes contribute to getting more strikes, then it just leads to a vicious cycle. (credited to DUST Fiend) 3_ Kills from strikes should only count as assists, since all the strike's caller did was point at an area on the map. The whole squad should also get an assist for every strike kill, since it was their collective war points that led to the squad leader obtaining the strike. (credited to Longshot Ravenwood, and DUST Fiend) EDIT: The squad leader doesn't earn them on his own, its based on the squad's collective ar points. Why should he be the only one who gets rewarded? The squad leader might not even do anything at all in the game, and just get a strike by virtue of having good squad members. +1 EDIT: Here's an ironic thought, if CCP increases Squad size back up to 6 they'll actually decrease OB/PS a tiny bit due to fewer squads on the field total. This won't have much effect under the current system but could help balanced quite a bit if the above (or even part of the above) were implemented.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.10.03 09:44:00 - [20] - Quote Only double? That still makes it far too easy to earn them and you'd still see them getting spammed to hell. I was able to get about 9 strikes just sitting in the MCC setting orders, doing nothing otherwise to help my team... And the randoms I was squadded with weren't even that good. Personally I think as long as a squad can get more than 3-4 strikes per round then they are too easy to get.

dust badger BetaMax. 283	Posted - 2012.10.03 09:45:00 - [21] - Quote i think double WP needed isnt enough i think they should be rare and a reward you should see 2 or 3 in the whole game not 10 per a squad per a game
Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.10.03 13:39:00 - [22] - Quote tl;dr. but the problem as I see it is that when the team manage to push the enemy to just one objective, and start PS/OB that you get enough kills to get another OB almost immediately from the looks of it. One suggestion I saw, that I'm starting to support is that WP earned by an OB, should not count towards earning the next.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 324	Posted - 2012.10.03 15:18:00 - [23] - Quote I don't think it's necessarily an issue of the strikes costing too little, but the fact that people can perform actions that are as far away from teamwork as you can get to farm enough WPs to bring in a constant barrage of strikes. If you had to earn your strikes by working the objectives and supporting your squadmates they wouldn't be nearly so common, because it's so much faster to ram a LAV into a wall then repair it. If there was a cap to how many repair points could contribute to earning a strike that might do the trick.
Chosokabe Ite Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 72	Posted - 2012.10.03 15:40:00 - [24] - Quote My complaint is that these middle fingers from the stars don't hurt EVERYONE within the kill zone. I saw a squad call a strike down and they just stood there while their surrounding opponents dropped dead. I was one of them. It pissed me off to no end laying there and watching them dance around in the "protection" of their own strike. It pissed me off to the point where I just turned the game off. At this point, I want no part in this revolving door of nonsense. I think nobody should be safe from death no matter who calls the strike. Otherwise it's just a unfair way to clear a null cannon WHILE you take it, not before. There's no strategic way to use strikes, they're just easily renewable trump cards with no risks attached to them.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.10.03 15:58:00 - [25] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: I don't think it's necessarily an issue of the strikes costing too little, but the fact that people can perform actions that are as far away from teamwork as you can get to farm enough WPs to bring in a constant barrage of strikes. If you had to earn your strikes by working the objectives and supporting your squadmates they wouldn't be nearly so common, because it's so much faster to ram a LAV into a wall then repair it. If there was a cap to how many repair points could contribute to earning a strike that might do the trick. Fixing the farming would be a good step toward resolving this issue. Also I think that the PS/OB really should not contribute to earning the next one. That aside we need a solution to farming which doesn't unfairly hurt/devalue the contributions of the legit LogiBros which any blanket cap on repping points/value will most certainly do. EDIT: Agreed with Chosokabe Ite that OB/PS should have FF always turned on even in High Sec. Use the skill to target and employ them tactically, they should never be a "DPS shield" EDIT 2: Here's a great idea on how to fix farming without hurting legit play. Ghost-33 wrote: Or you could just have it so that anything done in any safe/restricted area has no gain involved. If the enemy cant get to you to knife you then you shouldn't get any points for what you are doing there. Sure some might say "but I flew/drove back here to be safe to repair my Dropship/tank!" Well too bad you wouldn't get any gains in exchange for the safety you chose.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.04 21:16:00 - [26] - Quote I hope CCP reads this
Magpie Raven ZionTCD Legacy Rising 161	Posted - 2012.10.04 22:11:00 - [27] - Quote Something crossed my mind. In high sec space, the number of strikes will probably be determined by war points. In low sec, wont the EVE players be in control of this kind of thing? Wont it be ships in orbit firing down onto the battlefield? I would think that all we can do is earn it and apply for a strike from a space captain. Maybe the strikes should be expensive for the EVE players to do. I may be wrong.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.04 22:17:00 - [28] - Quote Precision strikes will be from the war barge, IDK who will control it in low or null sec. Orbital strikes will definitely be from EVE players.
Destheren Taichi Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.10.05 01:05:00 - [29] - Quote I think this is a great idea. Spawning and dying right away 4 times in a row due to precision strikes on the spawn area... not cool, especially when I'm using an expensive AV fit to take care of those pesky vehicles. I don't like how these precision strikes work.. at all. The less I see them happen the happier I will be. Last time I picked up the controller I got about two matches before ragequitting. Now there were a lot of other reasons for this, like lag problems, but precision strikes were at the top. Right now I'm getting a bad CoD taste in my mouth.
RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 136	Posted - 2012.10.05 16:26:00 - [30] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The squad leader doesn't earn them on his own, its based on the squad's collective ar points. Why should he be the only one who gets rewarded? The squad leader might not even do anything at all in the game, and just get a strike by virtue of having good squad members. That is your job as a soldier. Leaders get the glory, you get some credit, but mostly it is just stories you can tell to your kids when you get old. That is the way the military has worked for a long time. They will credit the soldiers but the general or commander who pulled it off/ thought of the plan gets the points. You get honorable mention. Except in this game you can trade off being squad leader if you really want and have your turn at uber points.



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