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Will Nova Succeed in Competitive Matchmaking?

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DeadlyAztec11 10187	Posted - 2017.05.27 03:48:00 - [61] - Quote Clone D wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I just cant shake that they dont want to let you adjust or even switch suits mid match. Weak af :/ best thing ever. I hated that I didn't need to form any strategy with any particular suit. I could always run and change suits. sniper in the redline with officer until someone came after me and change suit. oh you have a tank? change suit and counter. oh you thought my team was going to use the same trick from last game and now you deployed in wrong suit? just change suits Some people would just switch into a suicide suit just to blow up a tank, then switch back, like the tank never was there. I like knowing that if you deploy in the wrong suit... you're at a disadvantage. exactly I think the controversy here is that the painted image of the sci fi world of EVE is a place where consciousness can be transferred to a new body instantaneously and clones are manifested in mere seconds. There seems to be a discontinuity between that concept and limiting a player to a subset of loadouts during a match. The game designer may intend to enforce personal ideas that would ideally result in "more fun for all", however given the nature of the EVE universe, these fun rules may be perceived by some players in an oppressing light as imposing contrivances that dictate play style. That ship has sailed. Nova is putting game mechanics before lore, and having friendlies waste time customizing fits mid match was an inconvenience for the team as a whole. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Clone D Solo Zen 2251	Posted - 2017.05.27 04:17:00 - [62] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Clone D wrote: I think the controversy here is that the painted image of the sci fi world of EVE is a place where consciousness can be transferred to a new body instantaneously and clones are manifested in mere seconds. There seems to be a discontinuity between that concept and limiting a player to a subset of loadouts during a match. ... Nova is putting game mechanics before lore, and having friendlies waste time customizing fits mid match was an inconvenience for the team as a whole. I remember a few times when my team was failing miserably, and I decided to swap my T1 weapon for a T3 weapon. The ability to do that came in handy. How many people will simply leave matches when things aren't going in their team's favor, yet they don't have an appropriate suite available? Another issue is affordability. What if some noob brings all expensive suits to a match, and runs out of ISK and suits half way through? I'm guessing this has already been worked out somehow with blueprinting. Another issue is placing too much emphasis on dumb luck. In games where one specific strategy reliably beats another strategy, and there is no dynamism whatsoever, the outcome is dictated by the paper rock scissors of which strategy you chose to begin with. Then the question is: was it really strategy, or the luck of the draw? A great strategy game called chess allows you to change your strategy in response to your opponent at each progressive turn. This allows for some impressive comebacks and turning the game back in your favor if you have fallen behind. Without the choice of how to respond in a given situation, helplessness will abound. Nobody wants to feel helpless, and it's not fun. Games should be fun, right?
DUST Fiend 19230	Posted - 2017.05.27 04:41:00 - [63] - Quote By the sounds of it theyre doing away with tiers of things and ISK loss is more on a per match basis not per suit basis. The theory is that people will worry less about ISK loss and just fight. The problem is that like many things in DUST, this was actually a strength of the game. If PC actually worked and were improved upon, it would have provided a flourishing end game for players to actually move to. This coupled with a higher playerbase (more stable, shinier) would mean noobs would be matching noobs much more often and all would be well and good in nooblandia. If the game were re released as is but stable it would probably go net positive again. It had character, it took risks and did things no one else did, it was just on a dying system after having to rework all the original code. DUST was far more than gold and I fear that the soul might end up lost in translation, as it were So much for dropping assets on planet :/ Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9341	Posted - 2017.05.27 04:48:00 - [64] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: By the sounds of it theyre doing away with tiers of things and ISK loss is more on a per match basis not per suit basis. The theory is that people will worry less about ISK loss and just fight. The problem is that like many things in DUST, this was actually a strength of the game. If PC actually worked and were improved upon, it would have provided a flourishing end game for players to actually move to. This coupled with a higher playerbase (more stable, shinier) would mean noobs would be matching noobs much more often and all would be well and good in nooblandia. If the game were re released as is but stable it would probably go net positive again. It had character, it took risks and did things no one else did, it was just on a dying system after having to rework all the original code. DUST was far more than gold and I fear that the soul might end up lost in translation, as it were So much for dropping assets on planet :/ ISK is per death basis other consumables are per match basis ISK losses can be refunded with insurance in low level matches, but not high level matches. So ISK losses per death will be very real in high level "PC-like" battles. In a sense it's the same as asset loss, it's just auto restocking and charging you the ISK cost. Project\|Nova - What We Know So Far
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2402	Posted - 2017.05.27 09:58:00 - [65] - Quote The idea looks good to me. We'll only have to build multiple fits before battle. I never changed my fits during a fight anyway. Doing so would make you AFK for 2-3 min.. not worth it. So it's not a major change IMO. Only real change would be to limit the amount of fits we can bring to battle. If it's ~3 then it's a game changing mechanic, if it's more, not so much. In PC, each person used to have a role which they stuck to. The AV guy would play AV as long as there're vehicles on the field. 3 fits are enough to cover that. Only problem is when there're no vehicles left. Then he's gonna need a backup plan with at least 1 other fit.. which he had to bring in the fight... I like it ! "I hope we don't have vehicles [in Nova] simply so we don't have to deal with the people who drive them." -Ripley Riley
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2785	Posted - 2017.05.27 10:01:00 - [66] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: if you got experience and know the meta, you can be ready for anything. and i was... with pretty much one single fit. just gotta know how to use it. general purpose fit + experience is better than specialized anything, but you can always counter the special stuff if you know their limitations I will accept one single fit if you are a pilot and never leave your vehicle General purpose fit is just that, a fit for general purpose. Say you need to speed hack, lay links, lay nanohives, kill some heavies under reps, capture the homepoint under scanners, get rid of dropships and cover the point, etc. I'm beating a dead horse at this point but I just want to throw this out On topic, if the ISK gains system will incentive people to fight to the end for a win them I'm all for it. In Dust rarely people fought for the win. ISK came in firstplace, then WP and then somewhere at the end there was the win. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1494	Posted - 2017.05.27 10:05:00 - [67] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: By the sounds of it theyre doing away with tiers of things and ISK loss is more on a per match basis not per suit basis. The theory is that people will worry less about ISK loss and just fight. The problem is that like many things in DUST, this was actually a strength of the game. If PC actually worked and were improved upon, it would have provided a flourishing end game for players to actually move to. This coupled with a higher playerbase (more stable, shinier) would mean noobs would be matching noobs much more often and all would be well and good in nooblandia. If the game were re released as is but stable it would probably go net positive again. It had character, it took risks and did things no one else did, it was just on a dying system after having to rework all the original code. DUST was far more than gold and I fear that the soul might end up lost in translation, as it were So much for dropping assets on planet :/ ISK is per death basis other consumables are per match basis ISK losses can be refunded with insurance in low level matches, but not high level matches. So ISK losses per death will be very real in high level "PC-like" battles. In a sense it's the same as asset loss, it's just auto restocking and charging you the ISK cost. How do I lose ISK if everything is blueprint? why would anything need to be restocked? Why even have currency? Are there items we can use and are lost on a per death basis? If so, I missed that memo
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1494	Posted - 2017.05.27 10:55:00 - [68] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: if you got experience and know the meta, you can be ready for anything. and i was... with pretty much one single fit. just gotta know how to use it. general purpose fit + experience is better than specialized anything, but you can always counter the special stuff if you know their limitations I will accept one single fit if you are a pilot and never leave your vehicle General purpose fit is just that, a fit for general purpose. Say you need to speed hack, lay links, lay nanohives, kill some heavies under reps, capture the homepoint under scanners, get rid of dropships and cover the point, etc. I'm beating a dead horse at this point but I just want to throw this out On topic, if the ISK gains system will incentive people to fight to the end for a win them I'm all for it. In Dust rarely people fought for the win. ISK came in firstplace, then WP and then somewhere at the end there was the win. everybody is different. some people like to have a wallet, a watch, and a phone separately. i have an iphone... inside a case that also serves as a wallet.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1918	Posted - 2017.05.27 13:16:00 - [69] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: On topic, if the ISK gains system will incentive people to fight to the end for a win them I'm all for it. In Dust rarely people fought for the win. ISK came in firstplace, then WP and then somewhere at the end there was the win. Somewhere between dicking around and trying to **** off the enemy pilots? xD
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9345	Posted - 2017.05.27 16:05:00 - [70] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: How do I lose ISK if everything is blueprint? why would anything need to be restocked? Why even have currency? Are there items we can use and are lost on a per death basis? If so, I missed that memo Have you had a chance to look at the article in my signature yet? You can think of the ISK cost however you want, auto restock, repair cost, clone cost, whatever. The lore doesn't matter, just that functionally death will cost you an amount of Isk. Lower level battles will offer an insurance option a flat fee to cover all ISK expenditures. However you can opt out of it if you're good enough and won't die much, so your net profit will be better. Some items such as Tech III firmware are not consumed on death, but are instead consumed at the end of the match. There will likely be other consumables likes this, but firmware is the only one we have confirmed for at this time. Project\|Nova - What We Know So Far

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1494	Posted - 2017.05.27 16:44:00 - [71] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: How do I lose ISK if everything is blueprint? why would anything need to be restocked? Why even have currency? Are there items we can use and are lost on a per death basis? If so, I missed that memo Have you had a chance to look at the article in my signature yet? You can think of the ISK cost however you want, auto restock, repair cost, clone cost, whatever. The lore doesn't matter, just that functionally death will cost you an amount of Isk. Lower level battles will offer an insurance option a flat fee to cover all ISK expenditures. However you can opt out of it if you're good enough and won't die much, so your net profit will be better. Some items such as Tech III firmware are not consumed on death, but are instead consumed at the end of the match. There will likely be other consumables likes this, but firmware is the only one we have confirmed for at this time. I did, but reading it again only prompts me to ask the question again. If everything is a blueprint, and ISK is used to upgrade... stuff... what do you do with ISK when you've unlocked/upgraded everything? Blueprints can not be lost once purchased, so once you purchase a blue print, you will not need to purchase it ever again. Another question is why is there going to be insurance for items you cannot functionally lose? I am missing the point of ISK here unless.... ISK is being used in place of the word "experience." If I replace ISK with the word "experience," then a lot of what Rattati has said makes more sense. You gain "experience" at the end of each battle. The amount of "experience" you get at the end of a battle depends on how you performed. Dying a lot will get you less "experience." You use "experience to unlock/upgrade... stuff... So is there a limit to how much "experience" you can gain? How much "experience" will it cost to unlock/upgrade everything? And what will you use your "experience" for after you've unlocked/upgraded everything? In a traditional rpg game, experience is quite useless after you max out your character. Either you stop gaining experience, or you keep gaining experience, but won't have anything to spend it on after you reach the max character level. I'd like clarification on what exactly the point of having ISK will be in Nova, because it sounds like somethings been lost in translation.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17196	Posted - 2017.05.27 18:17:00 - [72] - Quote Essentially you are asking how to have a productive economy where risk and reward are properly balanced. I don't think there is an easy answer to that. Plenty of games try for that, but many end up just like Dust in which for many, if not all, currency becomes so easily gotten it loses any real sense of value, risk of loss, and pleasure of reward. It is a good question to address, but it those kinds of problems change over time, and will likely require many fixes at various points, so I wouldn't even know whether specific answers are possible until at some point during alpha or beta. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1495	Posted - 2017.05.27 22:28:00 - [73] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Essentially you are asking how to have a productive economy where risk and reward are properly balanced. I don't think there is an easy answer to that. Plenty of games try for that, but many end up just like Dust in which for many, if not all, currency becomes so easily gotten it loses any real sense of value, risk of loss, and pleasure of reward. It is a good question to address, but it those kinds of problems change over time, and will likely require many fixes at various points, so I wouldn't even know whether specific answers are possible until at some point during alpha or beta. So far I think there are two options focusing on risk/reward. You can choose to be fully insured and get a lower ISK payout. Or You can waive your insurance and claim a larger ISK payout. I think there should be 3 options. 1. Fully insured with no ISK payout. You risk nothing, you get nothing. 2. Partial insurance with partial ISK payout. 50% refunds and 50% of ISK payout. 3. No insurance. Full ISK payout. This lets players scale their risk/rewards while building confidence and experience with game mechanics.
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2788	Posted - 2017.05.27 23:44:00 - [74] - Quote I'll just add this thought. Insurance doesn't cover T3 gear. Thus you will : 1. Think twice before using it in pubs 2. Need to take the risk (no insurance, maximize ISK gain) in order to afford T3 gear Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
Maken Tosch DUST University 13771	Posted - 2017.05.28 00:03:00 - [75] - Quote Clone D wrote: I think the controversy here is that the painted image of the sci fi world of EVE is a place where consciousness can be transferred to a new body instantaneously and clones are manifested in mere seconds. There seems to be a discontinuity between that concept and limiting a player to a subset of loadouts during a match. The game designer may intend to enforce personal ideas that would ideally result in "more fun for all", however given the nature of the EVE universe, these fun rules may be perceived by some players in an oppressing light as imposing contrivances that dictate play style. To be fair, in Eve Online, if you brought a specific ship to the fight, you are stuck with that ship until you lose it. If you want to get back to the fight, you have to dock up, assemble another ship, undock and hope you don't get gate camped on the way back to the fight. You can use mobile supply depots to modify your fit somewhere in a safe spot in system or get near a ship that offers a fitting service, but you're stuck with the ship specifically unless you have a friend bringing other ships for you in the ship maintenance bay. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9347	Posted - 2017.05.28 00:11:00 - [76] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: I'll just add this thought. Insurance doesn't cover T3 gear. Thus you will : 1. Think twice before using it in pubs 2. Need to take the risk (no insurance, maximize ISK gain) in order to afford T3 gear You're misunderstanding. There is no "t3" gear. It's just gear that's upgraded over time. The level of upgrade has nothing to do with insurance payouts. Project\|Nova - What We Know So Far
DUST Fiend 19237	Posted - 2017.05.28 01:18:00 - [77] - Quote So what rewards are there for over performing / punishments for under performing? Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
DeadlyAztec11 10192	Posted - 2017.05.28 01:42:00 - [78] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: So what rewards are there for over performing / punishments for under performing? At the lowest level of competition there won't be any punishment. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9348	Posted - 2017.05.28 02:22:00 - [79] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: So what rewards are there for over performing / punishments for under performing? I would suspect that....insurance plus a loss would eat up the majority of profits. A win would provide a noticeable bonus and perhaps personal performance would be an additional bonus. So fail too hard and lose....close to no reward. Do well personally and win the match? Make it rain! Project\|Nova - What We Know So Far
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1496	Posted - 2017.05.28 02:35:00 - [80] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: So what rewards are there for over performing / punishments for under performing? I would suspect that....insurance plus a loss would eat up the majority of profits. A win would provide a noticeable bonus and perhaps personal performance would be an additional bonus. So fail too hard and lose....close to no reward. Do well personally and win the match? Make it rain! When considering this statement, it makes more sense. So insurance costs would be deducted from any reward payout at the end of match. Fail and break even, or win and make something of a profit. Waiving insurance costs would simply what? Add some sort of multiplier to end of match payouts? I'm seeing it more clearly now. Thanks guys :)

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9352	Posted - 2017.05.28 02:58:00 - [81] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: So what rewards are there for over performing / punishments for under performing? I would suspect that....insurance plus a loss would eat up the majority of profits. A win would provide a noticeable bonus and perhaps personal performance would be an additional bonus. So fail too hard and lose....close to no reward. Do well personally and win the match? Make it rain! When considering this statement, it makes more sense. So insurance costs would be deducted from any reward payout at the end of match. Fail and break even, or win and make something of a profit. Waiving insurance costs would simply what? Add some sort of multiplier to end of match payouts? I'm seeing it more clearly now. Thanks guys :) I mean you'll probably still see a small amount of profits at the end of a loss + nsurance match....enough to satiate new players, but not enough for someone deeper into the game. Project\|Nova - What We Know So Far
DeadlyAztec11 10193	Posted - 2017.05.28 06:11:00 - [82] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: The idea looks good to me. We'll only have to build multiple fits before battle. I never changed my fits during a fight anyway. Doing so would make you AFK for 2-3 min.. not worth it. So it's not a major change IMO. Only real change would be to limit the amount of fits we can bring to battle. If it's ~3 then it's a game changing mechanic, if it's more, not so much. In PC, each person used to have a role which they stuck to. The AV guy would play AV as long as there're vehicles on the field. 3 fits are enough to cover that. Only problem is when there're no vehicles left. Then he's gonna need a backup plan with at least 1 other fit.. which he had to bring in the fight... I like it ! Except, there probably won't be vehicles... Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2403	Posted - 2017.05.28 10:26:00 - [83] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: The idea looks good to me. We'll only have to build multiple fits before battle. I never changed my fits during a fight anyway. Doing so would make you AFK for 2-3 min.. not worth it. So it's not a major change IMO. Only real change would be to limit the amount of fits we can bring to battle. If it's ~3 then it's a game changing mechanic, if it's more, not so much. In PC, each person used to have a role which they stuck to. The AV guy would play AV as long as there're vehicles on the field. 3 fits are enough to cover that. Only problem is when there're no vehicles left. Then he's gonna need a backup plan with at least 1 other fit.. which he had to bring in the fight... I like it ! Except, there probably won't be vehicles... Oh yeah I know. It was just to make a point ! "I hope we don't have vehicles [in Nova] simply so we don't have to deal with the people who drive them." -Ripley Riley
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2789	Posted - 2017.05.28 10:27:00 - [84] - Quote By T3 I meant the end game gear overall, but I guess I got my answer. So in theory it sounds like it can work. Low risk low payout / High risk high payout; and if payouts are tied to the outcome of the battle people will indeed fight for the win. So it all boils down to the numbers right? As long as affordable doesn't collide with farmable I'm good. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
PARKOUR PRACTIONER Eternal Beings 4741	Posted - 2017.05.28 18:46:00 - [85] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Let's be honest here. How many of us wasted time or saw someone wasting time in a match because the were "making a fit?" Either because they ran out of suits or fittings, or because they wanted to specifically counter "that one guy" that killed them, nobody liked seeing that teammates borderline AFK during matches. Removing the ability to make or edit fit mid match is going to help people stay in the game. I wasn't aware anyone ever used that. It wastes so much time. I'm glad it won't exist in Nova. I was so guilty of this. For a while the best fits i would come up with were during battles until you got kicked for not spawning in. Then i got better. PSN SilentChaozz Autistic with extreme chronic pain. Hey, it's a rare one!
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1922	Posted - 2017.05.28 18:58:00 - [86] - Quote PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Let's be honest here. How many of us wasted time or saw someone wasting time in a match because the were "making a fit?" Either because they ran out of suits or fittings, or because they wanted to specifically counter "that one guy" that killed them, nobody liked seeing that teammates borderline AFK during matches. Removing the ability to make or edit fit mid match is going to help people stay in the game. I wasn't aware anyone ever used that. It wastes so much time. I'm glad it won't exist in Nova. I was so guilty of this. For a while the best fits i would come up with were during battles until you got kicked for not spawning in. Then i got better. Ironically, this would be less of a problem with a decent PC, since the time wasted was mostly waiting for the UI to react.


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