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My concerns about Nova

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Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2949	Posted - 2016.10.10 19:00:00 - [1] - Quote 1.) Rattati said something about "players made it clear they wanted better gameplay" --- I worry that CCP now thinks players care MORE about smooth gameplay than all the grand meta stuff of Dust, and that Nova might turn into a fun little lobby shooter, but be missing economy, player groups, eve-link etc... It needs all of the above! 2.) I worry that CCP is going to be reluctant to take risks with Nova, based that Dust wasn't as successful as it could have been. Really tho, Dust had a winning formula, any other shooter should be envious of the persistent universe of Dust. THAT'S what keeps players long-term. Compare that to the player retention gimmicks of other shooters: unlocking customization options in RNG loot drops... And you have them all beat! Your player retention system is better, that's how you kept a player base for nearly 4 years in this free ps3 shooter. Maximize that! 3.) Ultimately, I worry that CCP thinks that a shooter can't be done in their universe, and are half-heartedly working on "nova" while some higher-up suit-and-tie has his finger on the "abort" button waiting to axe the whole thing at the first moment of trouble... Really if it werent for a handful of specific blunders Dust would have been much more successful than it was. I think Nova should be the opportunity to learn from all the mistakes and do it properly from the beginning! Join the DUST STEAM GROUP
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8623	Posted - 2016.10.10 19:14:00 - [2] - Quote I know even my Boundless Optimism can cut through everyone's fears or salt but I'll give it a shot. 1) Don't let the tech demo scare you and remember that Twitter and the Forums are not the only place developers talk. Both Rattati and Frame have openly talked about understanding that the players care deeply about the unique parts that DUST had, and it is equally important to them in NOVA. At the same time CCP understands that the game needs to play well and be at least competitive against other shooters out there to get people in the door. Many would be DUST players tried it out for a couple of days, got frustrated with the poor gunplay, and left. Now I don't expect NOVA to outperform games like Battlefield and Destiny in terms of gunplay, but it needs to be at least close so new players will stick around to actually get hooked on the parts that are unique to DUST/NOVA. 2) This somewhat ties in with #1. I don't think they're afraid to take risks, but unlike DUST which was full of blind and mismanaged risks, the risks in Nova need to be calculated choises that are built upon a strong foundation. This is critical because I'd you take a risk and it flops, you need a strong foundation to fall back on to still keep player engaged while you try something else that may work better. The desire to take risks is there, but we must put the cart before the horse either. 3) With Star Citizen on the horizon, however far fetched as that project may be, it is a looming threat to CCP in the sense that players have in their mind that a space based universe can have a wide range of gameplay available, may that be a tactical spaceship combat, or a dogfighter, or an FPS game. Even if Star Citizen flops, the expectation is in the mind of gamers now and any company in that genre of games knows that if they are to remain competitive...they need to develop on that level. Already we see CCP diving into 4 distinctively different types of gameplay set in the same universe with EVE, Valkyrie, Gunjack, and Dust/Nova. CCP may do some stupid **** sometimes, but they're smart enough to know that an FPS in the NewEden universe is only going to help them push their product, which is not a game, but rather a whole universe. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 16059	Posted - 2016.10.10 20:08:00 - [3] - Quote I think your concerns are valid, and in fact probably true, BUT I don't think that they will lead to bad outcomes. 1) Poor Dust gameplay led to horrible retention rates. Gameplay is the cornerstone of any game. Its the reason Dust failed. Rattati also recently mentioned that what they were currently doing was taking our feedback and making what game play they had and giving it New Eden and Dust flavor. I think that it is best to give the benefit of the doubt this early on. 2) Given the failure of Dust, I can imagine that they may be risk adverse at first. Particularly the people above Rattati who seem to have less attachment to the game. That being said, Rattati did a great job of proving the viability of Dust such as it was from a business perspective, which is a major boone. I believe that once Nova is able to prove itself, the fact it is on PC and can have test servers etc. will enable it to take risks and grow after release. 3) I think that while those above Rattati may have half hearted perspectives towards Nova that Rattati, LogicLoop, Frame, and Logibro are all heavily invested in the future of Nova. I think that is what is very important. Although I do still think the greatest concern is the upper management of CCP. If Nova gets f*cked, it won't be because of the people directly involved with the game. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 10551	Posted - 2016.10.10 20:20:00 - [4] - Quote Don't be blinded by nostalgia. Yes, plenty of people will tell you that they very much enjoyed dust, but they will also tell you that the game ran horribly, if at all, most of the time. Also, it didn't keep enough players long term. Those of us that stayed are few and far in between from the thousands that created accounts to play, only to abandon the game shortly after after academy, if not during. Dust had a ton of problems that kept it from being successful, not just a few. *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
DUST Fiend 18752	Posted - 2016.10.10 21:19:00 - [5] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Dust had a ton of problems that kept it from being successful, not just a few. The thing that worries me most is that if they just make it CoD in space it will do great and people will praise it like OMG CCP like this is AMAZEBALLS and those of us that fell in love with DUST for its potential will be smashing their heads into walls repeatedly. I already do that, but it's my therapy regimen. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8625	Posted - 2016.10.10 21:42:00 - [6] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Joel II X wrote: Dust had a ton of problems that kept it from being successful, not just a few. The thing that worries me most is that if they just make it CoD in space it will do great and people will praise it like OMG CCP like this is AMAZEBALLS and those of us that fell in love with DUST for its potential will be smashing their heads into walls repeatedly. I already do that, but it's my therapy regimen. The brain trauma actually explains a lot... EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1196	Posted - 2016.10.10 22:22:00 - [7] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: 1.) Rattati said something about "players made it clear they wanted better gameplay" --- I worry that CCP now thinks players care MORE about smooth gameplay than all the grand meta stuff of Dust, and that Nova might turn into a fun little lobby shooter, but be missing economy, player groups, eve-link etc... It needs all of the above! 2.) I worry that CCP is going to be reluctant to take risks with Nova, based that Dust wasn't as successful as it could have been. Really tho, Dust had a winning formula, any other shooter should be envious of the persistent universe of Dust. THAT'S what keeps players long-term. Compare that to the player retention gimmicks of other shooters: unlocking customization options in RNG loot drops... And you have them all beat! Your player retention system is better, that's how you kept a player base for nearly 4 years in this free ps3 shooter. Maximize that! 3.) Ultimately, I worry that CCP thinks that a shooter can't be done in their universe, and are half-heartedly working on "nova" while some higher-up suit-and-tie has his finger on the "abort" button waiting to axe the whole thing at the first moment of trouble... Really if it werent for a handful of specific blunders Dust would have been much more successful than it was. I think Nova should be the opportunity to learn from all the mistakes and do it properly from the beginning! TLDR: I totally agree with this, and while reading it, was reminded that I had some ideas right from the start of Dust about how it could have been done better. It wasn't at the time, but now it could be. While reading this, I had a flash of inspiration about the sort of thing I thought Dust was going to be and how I think it could have (perhaps should have) worked. I came from EvE. I started with it way back, I now count myself as a long-liner, even though since Dust I have hardly played it. My first impression of Dust was through the EvE interface as it was going to be - Walking In Stations. That ultimately never came to fruition, other than being able to walk around the Captain's Quarters, which was the EvE version of the Merc's Quarters in Dust. Probably the best thing about that was the ability to fully customise your avatar, something Dust never actually got. But I saw this as the logical launch point for a FPS to grow out of EvE Online, that EvE pilots would have the option to put on a suit of armour and go planetside and duke it out with other EvE pilots and mercenaries to really make a difference to the ongoing wars in New Eden, through actually taking territory. The high point of that vision was of course, the battle over Caldari Prime, yet it involved no EvE pilot mercs on the ground - they were all still in their ships, thanks to a tremendous amount of negativity from the EvE community themselves. They simply never saw the massive potential in expanding EvE to encompass these other modes of game play, and so Dust was relegated to being a separate game, with minimal EvE link., at least in my mind. I have no idea what was in developers' heads at the time. I was only going by the direction that things seemed to be taking in thinking that the intention was to implement a FPS as an extension of EvE. It was with great sadness that the realisation dawned that this would probably never happen. Now with Nova, there is still the possibility that down the track it might still, especially now that it's going to PC and perhaps further in the future with a well defined EvE link. I still think the concept of having separate logins for different games is flawed. There is simply no reason for this. My EvE characters, particularly my main, Nalianna, should be able to just don armour and go fight with guns, just with a flick of a switch to turn on that functionality. Additional payment through micropayments or subscription, a function that already exists in EvE would allow the training of an EvE character to fight in Nova, to fly a fighter in Valkyrie, whatever. Since they all share the same database, it just makes sense that this should be possible, but for the differences that exist in the payment options and methods for each. The move to F2P for EvE is a major step towards allowing everyone to do everything on the one account, with appropriate subscriptions and micropayments.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1196	Posted - 2016.10.10 22:26:00 - [8] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Although I do still think the greatest concern is the upper management of CCP. If Nova gets f*cked, it won't be because of the people directly involved with the game. This is my biggest concern as well. I believe the upper management of CCP is the biggest threat to Nova and possibly to CCP's vision.
DUST Fiend 18760	Posted - 2016.10.10 23:29:00 - [9] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Joel II X wrote: Dust had a ton of problems that kept it from being successful, not just a few. The thing that worries me most is that if they just make it CoD in space it will do great and people will praise it like OMG CCP like this is AMAZEBALLS and those of us that fell in love with DUST for its potential will be smashing their heads into walls repeatedly. I already do that, but it's my therapy regimen. The brain trauma actually explains a lot... It's not trauma, it's experience. Lots, and lots, and LOTS of experience. GET ON MA LEVL! Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8637	Posted - 2016.10.10 23:57:00 - [10] - Quote Experienced? You mean well salted? EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer

Maken Tosch Dust University Ivy League 13643	Posted - 2016.10.11 00:07:00 - [11] - Quote Don't worry. After seeing how CCP Rattati, CCP LogicLoop, CCP Frame, and other Devs have communicated their intentions and how they respond to the community feedback in the forums and other forms of social media (ever heard of Discord chat?), it seems likely that Nova will not only be a solid shooter but it will also have at least something that made Dust unique. In fact, we had a topic on that a while ago. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DUST Fiend 18769	Posted - 2016.10.11 02:41:00 - [12] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Experienced? You mean well salted? Did you just call me 'well' salted? I AM salt you ******* pleb. I make things taste delicious. Plus I give people kidney stones. I'm nice like that ;) Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8638	Posted - 2016.10.11 02:53:00 - [13] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Experienced? You mean well salted? Did you just call me 'well' salted? I AM salt you ******* pleb. I make things taste delicious. Plus I give people kidney stones. I'm nice like that ;) Quickly! Everyone rub your meat on DUST Fiend! Everyone loves salted meat. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18769	Posted - 2016.10.11 03:31:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Experienced? You mean well salted? Did you just call me 'well' salted? I AM salt you ***** pleb. I make things taste delicious. Plus I give people kidney stones. I'm nice like that ;) Quickly! Everyone rub your meat on DUST Fiend! Everyone loves salted meat. Suddenly I feel like this If it weren't for me all ya'll ***** that go to the Ocean would basically be swimming in a giant puddle of sperm, so, you're welcome And for those like Pokey, I'm sorry Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8639	Posted - 2016.10.11 07:29:00 - [15] - Quote There are no others that can match my level of Optimism. You and me, we're like Batman and the Joker, one cant exist without the other. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18769	Posted - 2016.10.11 11:29:00 - [16] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: There are no others that can match my level of Optimism. You and me, we're like Batman and the Joker, one cant exist without the other. Awww, you think I'm Batman Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8639	Posted - 2016.10.11 13:03:00 - [17] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: There are no others that can match my level of Optimism. You and me, we're like Batman and the Joker, one cant exist without the other. Awww, you think I'm Batman Why so serious? EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18770	Posted - 2016.10.11 13:27:00 - [18] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: There are no others that can match my level of Optimism. You and me, we're like Batman and the Joker, one cant exist without the other. Awww, you think I'm Batman Why so serious? I'm about as serious as a drunk game of Zombies in Halo 1 So, kinda serious. Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7921	Posted - 2016.10.11 14:24:00 - [19] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: 1.) Rattati said something about "players made it clear they wanted better gameplay" --- I worry that CCP now thinks players care MORE about smooth gameplay than all the grand meta stuff of Dust, and that Nova might turn into a fun little lobby shooter, but be missing economy, player groups, eve-link etc... It needs all of the above! 2.) I worry that CCP is going to be reluctant to take risks with Nova, based that Dust wasn't as successful as it could have been. Really tho, Dust had a winning formula, any other shooter should be envious of the persistent universe of Dust. THAT'S what keeps players long-term. Compare that to the player retention gimmicks of other shooters: unlocking customization options in RNG loot drops... And you have them all beat! Your player retention system is better, that's how you kept a player base for nearly 4 years in this free ps3 shooter. Maximize that! 3.) Ultimately, I worry that CCP thinks that a shooter can't be done in their universe, and are half-heartedly working on "nova" while some higher-up suit-and-tie has his finger on the "abort" button waiting to axe the whole thing at the first moment of trouble... Really if it werent for a handful of specific blunders Dust would have been much more successful than it was. I think Nova should be the opportunity to learn from all the mistakes and do it properly from the beginning! As I understand it, the plan is to create a fun little [smooth, well functioning] lobby shooter, then add to it in the following order: - EVE theme. Give it the look and feel of New Eden. - Player Groups. Chat channels, Corps, Alliances. (EVE Link) - Player Economy. Open markets. Possibly scavenging or resource harvesting. Player to Player market. (EVE link?) - Planetary Conquest. - Vehicles. - Physical EVE Link. (Possible, if the FPS is successful, and EVE players are interested in the games being linked.) But before they commit to all of that, the game must prove to be successful, so it will probably be released at the Player Groups, or Player Economy stage. Vehicles are not expected at release, and Planetary Conquest may not be included on release either. I think it would make sense to add Planetary Conquest and Vehicles at the same time and give Vehicles a clear role in Planetary Conquest. As to your second point, see your third point. While CCP upper management might not be fully committed when it comes to the development of a New Eden FPS, Rattati dam well is, and I expect his team is as well. They want to insure that the new FPS excels at each stage of development, and in the end, I suspect that having to prove the game to upper management will lead to it being a good solid game. Nothing like a bit of resistance to make you stronger and more committed. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7921	Posted - 2016.10.11 14:49:00 - [20] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: With Star Citizen on the horizon, however far fetched as that project may be, it is a looming threat to CCP in the sense that players have in their mind that a space based universe can have a wide range of gameplay available, may that be a tactical spaceship combat, or a dogfighter, or an FPS game. Even if Star Citizen flops, the expectation is in the mind of gamers now and any company in that genre of games knows that if they are to remain competitive...they need to develop on that level. Already we see CCP diving into 4 distinctively different types of gameplay set in the same universe with EVE, Valkyrie, Gunjack, and Dust/Nova. This is a very pragmatic, and strong, argument for why CCP will be forced by market pressures to support the development of a New Eden FPS. For those who don't buy all the arguments based on Boundless Optimism, maybe they will believe this one, solidly based in Boundless Pessimism. In a few years any spaceship game that does not offer a first person experience will be obsolete. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7922	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:03:00 - [21] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: 1) Poor Dust gameplay led to horrible retention rates. Gameplay is the cornerstone of any game. Its the reason Dust failed. Rattati also recently mentioned that what they were currently doing was taking our feedback and making what game play they had and giving it New Eden and Dust flavor. I think that it is best to give the benefit of the doubt this early on. That is a good point. Most people quit DUST in the first couple of days, while in Destiny most people did not quite until they reached end game content and found there was not enough there to keep their interests. While most people who played DUST as long as it would take to reach Destiny end game content, usually continued to play DUST for years. If the sequel to DUST had better initial retention rates, and kept the aspects from DUST which kept people's interest for so long, then the sequel to DUST should be able to build a good size player base and retain them for a long time. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DUST Fiend 18770	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:19:00 - [22] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: With Star Citizen on the horizon, however far fetched as that project may be, it is a looming threat to CCP in the sense that players have in their mind that a space based universe can have a wide range of gameplay available, may that be a tactical spaceship combat, or a dogfighter, or an FPS game. Even if Star Citizen flops, the expectation is in the mind of gamers now and any company in that genre of games knows that if they are to remain competitive...they need to develop on that level. Already we see CCP diving into 4 distinctively different types of gameplay set in the same universe with EVE, Valkyrie, Gunjack, and Dust/Nova. This is a very pragmatic, and strong, argument for why CCP will be forced by market pressures to support the development of a New Eden FPS. For those who don't buy all the arguments based on Boundless Optimism, maybe they will believe this one, solidly based in Boundless Pessimism. In a few years any spaceship game that does not offer a first person experience will be obsolete. I don't expect SC level design from CCP, I strongly doubt they've got 127 Million dollars to throw into the project lol. I just don't want another generic lobby shooter with an EVE skin, that's all. Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7922	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:32:00 - [23] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: I came from EvE. I started with it way back, I now count myself as a long-liner, even though since Dust I have hardly played it. My first impression of Dust was through the EvE interface as it was going to be - Walking In Stations. That ultimately never came to fruition, other than being able to walk around the Captain's Quarters, which was the EvE version of the Merc's Quarters in Dust. Probably the best thing about that was the ability to fully customise your avatar, something Dust never actually got. I would like to see the addition of an MMO/Social aspect to both games. Have the ability to activate a customized clone in a space station and enter a Bar or Corporate Retreat, or some other meeting establishment. (The fire marshal could impose limits on the number of patrons in an establishment, which would conveniently control lag with a lore explanation.) Automatically activate a voice chat channel for the establishment with proximity controls on volume so only the people close to you are at full volume and the people farther away recede into background noise. Then have a raised voice/Shout option that would allow everyone in the establishment to hear you, and a whisper option to talk to just one specific person. Public bars would be great for meeting new people to play with or to recruit for your Corp. (A complain to management option, where a certain number of complaints would get someone thrown out, should help deal with those who would be deliberately annoying or racist/sexist, etc.) Private rooms could be used to negotiate with Officers from other Corps. Corporate Retreats could be used to socialize with Corp members between matches, and for Corp meetings. It would really add to the MMO aspect of the game, make it feel a lot less like just a lobby shooter, and would not be all that hard to setup as there would be no combat mechanics. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8640	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:32:00 - [24] - Quote I don't expect SC levels either, in fact it's impossible to deliver that kind of combat without basically ripping EVE apart and that simply won't happen. However you also need to bear in mind that EVE players will be the primary targeted audience with Nova, and I'm a firm believer that EVE players would not be satisfied with the game unless it exhibited a similar level of depth and customization that EVE provides. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18770	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:37:00 - [25] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I don't expect SC levels either, in fact it's impossible to deliver that kind of combat without basically ripping EVE apart and that simply won't happen. However you also need to bear in mind that EVE players will be the primary targeted audience with Nova, and I'm a firm believer that EVE players would not be satisfied with the game unless it exhibited a similar level of depth and customization that EVE provides. I really doubt too many EVE players will take the time away from EVE to play a game that doesn't remotely resemble EVE. Making a game that directly competes with your primary source of income doesn't seem like the greatest bet to me. It would serve them far better to make Nova worthwhile to EVE players while they're still within EVE, through a stronger connection or even the arena matches we were teased with so long ago. Making an FPS to appease EVE players is just destined to fail. Making an FPS that draws people further into EVE, that feels like a better direction to take. Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8640	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:42:00 - [26] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I don't expect SC levels either, in fact it's impossible to deliver that kind of combat without basically ripping EVE apart and that simply won't happen. However you also need to bear in mind that EVE players will be the primary targeted audience with Nova, and I'm a firm believer that EVE players would not be satisfied with the game unless it exhibited a similar level of depth and customization that EVE provides. I really doubt too many EVE players will take the time away from EVE to play a game that doesn't remotely resemble EVE. Making a game that directly competes with your primary source of income doesn't seem like the greatest bet to me. It would serve them far better to make Nova worthwhile to EVE players while they're still within EVE, through a stronger connection or even the arena matches we were teased with so long ago. Making an FPS to appease EVE players is just destined to fail, or at the very least fracture the community. Making an FPS that draws people further into EVE, that feels like a better direction to take. Except a Dust like game on PC is exactly like that. A EVE-like FPS that appeals to the kind of player that enjoy that style of system design. I'm not exactly sure how you can make a game that doesn't appease EVE players without it betraying the core elements that you yourself said are important. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18770	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:50:00 - [27] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Except a Dust like game on PC is exactly like that. A EVE-like FPS that appeals to the kind of player that enjoy that style of system design. I'm not exactly sure how you can make a game that doesn't appease EVE players without it betraying the core elements that you yourself said are important. But you'll never have a spread sheet style FPS, and if you want to get good in this style of FPS, you have to commit a good amount of time. The more time you spend getting good at Nova, the less time you spend blowing up things in EVE. Even if Nova were the best thing ever for EVE players and made their spread sheet condoms fill with joy, it would just mean they'd move from EVE to Nova. It just seems odd to make your target audience one that's already invested in your primary game. Don't you want to expand the player base of both games, rather than dwindle one while helping to exclude the average gamer from the other? If the game is simplistic and easy to pick up, it will probably not appeal to EVE players. Yet, if it's as layered and complex as EVE, it will naturally push away the more average and casual player. I guess I just don't see the sense in primarily targeting EVE players, instead of giving EVE players a reason to invest EVE side. Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7922	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:51:00 - [28] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: But I saw this as the logical launch point for a FPS to grow out of EvE Online, that EvE pilots would have the option to put on a suit of armour and go planetside and duke it out with other EvE pilots and mercenaries to really make a difference to the ongoing wars in New Eden, through actually taking territory. The high point of that vision was of course, the battle over Caldari Prime, yet it involved no EvE pilot mercs on the ground - they were all still in their ships, thanks to a tremendous amount of negativity from the EvE community themselves. They simply never saw the massive potential in expanding EvE to encompass these other modes of game play, and so Dust was relegated to being a separate game, with minimal EvE link., at least in my mind. There was a lot of opposition in the EVE community to integrating DUST more fully with EVE. I think a lot of that was due to DUST being on a different platform so EVE players could not play DUST on the same hardware they played EVE on. With Nova being on PC that barrier is removed. Also with other spaceship games promising to provide a first or third person avatar experience, demand for something similar in EVE should increase, and the competition should put pressure on CCP to implement something like that. Alena Asakura wrote: I still think the concept of having separate logins for different games is flawed. There is simply no reason for this. My EvE characters, particularly my main, Nalianna, should be able to just don armour and go fight with guns, just with a flick of a switch to turn on that functionality. Additional payment through micropayments or subscription, a function that already exists in EvE would allow the training of an EvE character to fight in Nova, to fly a fighter in Valkyrie, whatever. Since they all share the same database, it just makes sense that this should be possible, but for the differences that exist in the payment options and methods for each. The move to F2P for EvE is a major step towards allowing everyone to do everything on the one account, with appropriate subscriptions and micropayments. There was mention at one of the Fanfests (the one with the Legion announcement) of letting you chose on the loading screen which game you enter and being able to use the same character in all three games. They even made a change to the database to make that possible. But I agree, I think you should be able to switch from one game to another without leaving the game. It can't be that hard to automate shutting one game down and opening another. The Jump Clone mechanic makes the transition easy lore wise. Yes, it would mean a long loading screen, but it would make all the games feel like part of the same game without having to fully integrate the game engines. They could play the latest Scope News clip while you are waiting to entertain players while the other game loaded. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8640	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:55:00 - [29] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Except a Dust like game on PC is exactly like that. A EVE-like FPS that appeals to the kind of player that enjoy that style of system design. I'm not exactly sure how you can make a game that doesn't appease EVE players without it betraying the core elements that you yourself said are important. But you'll never have a spread sheet style FPS, and if you want to get good in an FPS, you have to commit a good amount of time. The more time you spend getting good at Nova, the less time you spend blowing up things in EVE. Even if Nova were the best thing ever for EVE players and made their spread sheet condoms fill with joy, it would just mean they'd move from EVE to Nova. It just seems odd to make your target audience one that's already invested in your primary game. Don't you want to expand the player base of both games, rather than dwindle one while helping to exclude the average gamer from the other? If the game is simplistic and easy to pick up, it will probably not appeal to EVE players. Yet, if it's as layered and complex as EVE, it will naturally push away the more average and casual player. I guess I just don't see the sense in primarily targeting EVE players, instead of giving EVE players a reason to invest EVE side. I guess I'm confused about what you want then. You seem to be implying you want to draw in players that normally would not be interested in EVE, but you're worried that the game won't have enough EVE-like elements and will be too mainstream...even though mainstream is what will draw in more non-EVE players. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7922	Posted - 2016.10.11 15:58:00 - [30] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: With Star Citizen on the horizon, however far fetched as that project may be, it is a looming threat to CCP in the sense that players have in their mind that a space based universe can have a wide range of gameplay available, may that be a tactical spaceship combat, or a dogfighter, or an FPS game. Even if Star Citizen flops, the expectation is in the mind of gamers now and any company in that genre of games knows that if they are to remain competitive...they need to develop on that level. Already we see CCP diving into 4 distinctively different types of gameplay set in the same universe with EVE, Valkyrie, Gunjack, and Dust/Nova. This is a very pragmatic, and strong, argument for why CCP will be forced by market pressures to support the development of a New Eden FPS. For those who don't buy all the arguments based on Boundless Optimism, maybe they will believe this one, solidly based in Boundless Pessimism. In a few years any spaceship game that does not offer a first person experience will be obsolete. I don't expect SC level design from CCP, I strongly doubt they've got 127 Million dollars to throw into the project lol. I just don't want another generic lobby shooter with an EVE skin, that's all. No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

DUST Fiend 18770	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:03:00 - [31] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I guess I'm confused about what you want then. You seem to be implying you want to draw in players that normally would not be interested in EVE, but you're worried that the game won't have enough EVE-like elements and will be too mainstream...even though mainstream is what will draw in more non-EVE players. I'm just arguing against targeting EVE players primarily. If that's your target audience, you've set the bar very high and without a solid EVE link, will still likely just ** them off. This could have negative impacts on BOTH games, instead of just one. I've been pretty clear that all I really want out of Nova is the combined arms aspect and a stronger EVE link of some kind. I guess it just rubs me the wrong way to think that EVE players are the primary target audience when all they bothered to do was all over DUST the entire time it was alive, and likely won't have a whole lot of interest in anyways if it doesn't directly benefit them EVE side. Flux it, I'M BATMAN!** Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8641	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:05:00 - [32] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. Actually running it that way wouldn't be entirely nonsensical. Keep SP pools seperate of course, and given how Valkyrie has a unique currency (VISK) I could see them using the same concept for Nova to get around that issue initially. Existing Dust characters could also be converted to EVE Alpha Clones as well as Nova clones if characters are shared. It would effectively let Dust players use their name in EVE and EVE players in Nova, which is kinda appealing. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18770	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:07:00 - [33] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. I can sort of see the appeal to that but it seems like a ton of work to basically give your Nova character your EVE name. You're always in your dropsuit, and I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain DUST clones used an entirely different process of cloning than capsuleers. Wouldn't it just be easier to link your accounts so when you sign in you have the same name? None of your EVE skills or assets would apply so aside from RP, what would be the point in developing that tech? Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8641	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:09:00 - [34] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I guess I'm confused about what you want then. You seem to be implying you want to draw in players that normally would not be interested in EVE, but you're worried that the game won't have enough EVE-like elements and will be too mainstream...even though mainstream is what will draw in more non-EVE players. I'm just arguing against targeting EVE players primarily. If that's your target audience, you've set the bar very high and without a solid EVE link, will still likely just ** them off. This could have negative impacts on BOTH games, instead of just one. I've been pretty clear that all I really want out of Nova is the combined arms aspect and a stronger EVE link of some kind. I guess it just rubs me the wrong way to think that EVE players are the primary target audience when all they bothered to do was ** all over DUST the entire time it was alive, and likely won't have a whole lot of interest in anyways if it doesn't directly benefit them EVE side. I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. However, it also makes sense to seed your game initially with players you know will at the very least try the game out for a while, which are EVE players and Dust players with PCs. That being said of you don't develop the game in such a way that is Appealing to those groups, you lost the huge asset of having an existing playerbase...this is particularly important if they go with a F2P model since player count is critical to maintain games with that model. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18772	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:12:00 - [35] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. However, it also makes sense to seed your game initially with players you know will at the very least try the game out for a while, which are EVE players and Dust players with PCs. That being said of you don't develop the game in such a way that is Appealing to those groups, you lost the huge asset of having an existing playerbase...this is particularly important if they go with a F2P model since player count is critical to maintain games with that model. I guess I've just seen enough vitriol from EVE players towards DUST that I don't really trust them to do anything but try and drag the game down if they feel it draws away from EVE in any way. The game is going to start off without much of an EVE connection, so the first thing EVE players will experience is...not EVE? Just seems like a weird way to go about it. Naturally there will be crossover so at the end of the day this argument is moot, I just feel like if EVE players truly were the target audience, removing that EVE link is probably not the first thing you want them to experience. Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8641	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:18:00 - [36] - Quote I dunno man, it's anecdotal but most EVE players I've talked to are very interested in trying an EVE FPS if it's on PC. I think even without EVE link, if the game has all of the same systems like fitting, market, ect. and it really feels like EVE translated to an FPS....that's appealing as an EVE player. Seeing your game reimagined as a different genre is appealing, at least to me, so I'd give it a shot in their position. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7923	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:19:00 - [37] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I really doubt too many EVE players will take the time away from EVE to play a game that doesn't remotely resemble EVE. Making a game that directly competes with your primary source of income doesn't seem like the greatest bet to me. It would serve them far better to make Nova worthwhile to EVE players while they're still within EVE, through a stronger connection or even the arena matches we were teased with so long ago. Making an FPS to appease EVE players is just destined to fail, or at the very least fracture the community. Making an FPS that draws people further into EVE, that feels like a better direction to take. I think I mostly agree with you. Any of the 3 games (4 if a version of Gunjack comes to the PC) should be an independent entry point for new players. The player should then have the option to get involved with one of the other games if they chose by acquiring a Small Ships Pilots license, Large Ship Pilot license, or Infantry Rating. The games should stand on their own, but be tied together through shared markets, shared organizations (Corps, Alliances), and shared impacts (Holding a District effecting taxes on Planetary Interaction in the district, or the bonuses to make the cost of maintaining a station at the planet less costly, etc.) The effects on the other games on the game you are playing should only impact a player once they get more heavily into the meta-game (Planetary Conquest, Faction Warfare, POS management, Planetary Interaction in Low Sec/Null Sec, etc.) Players who just do PUBs in DUST2 or Highsec Industry in EVE should not see any effects from the other games. The games can have separate monetization, so CCP gets more out of you if you chose to play more than one of the games, which is fare since they would have separate development teams. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DUST Fiend 18775	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:21:00 - [38] - Quote See this is part of why I don't mind making an ass of myself around here, at least it helps some of you smarter folks get discussing ideas :) The other reason is because it's basically like Team Rockets motto: I can't not do it. Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8641	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:22:00 - [39] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: See this is part of why I don't mind making an ass of myself around here, at least it helps some of you smarter folks get discussing ideas :) The other reason is because it's basically like Team Rockets motto: I can't not do it. I love to hate you too. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18775	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:23:00 - [40] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: See this is part of why I don't mind making an ass of myself around here, at least it helps some of you smarter folks get discussing ideas :) The other reason is because it's basically like Team Rockets motto: I can't not do it. I love to hate you too. I have that effect on people, even myself Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8643	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:29:00 - [41] - Quote Fox, that's actually a very good way to look at it. Core base gameplay has zero effect on the other games but as you move up the development pole, you start to see interaction. Even if it's not 1:1 realtime interaction, it's there. Hook new players with a solid core gameplay and then as they get more invested in the game, they become more invested in the universe as a whole. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7923	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:35:00 - [42] - Quote Let me also point out that with the "Jumplclone to the other game" approach to integrating the games, CCP can develop the games independently and then integrate them at any time without having to do any major structural changed to any of the games. However, the cross game interactions (whether the games are integrated or separate) requires programing on both sides. That said, you can have a lot of interaction between games that consists simply of changes in their shared database: Shared Markets, effects on taxes, reduction in POS fuel costs, movement of goods from one inventory to another, etc. If things go well and the interest from players in both games is there, then maybe they will put in the heavy Development resources for flashy stuff like Orbital Bombardment. But ultimately, the small changes in the shared databases would probably be a more meaningful link in the Metagame than the flashy stuff. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Nomed Deeps The Exemplars 580	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:39:00 - [43] - Quote Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I've done all the speculation on Project Nova I am willing to. I'm tired; tired of having to speculate due to no official info and tired of waiting for CCP to provide any actual info. I had hope of seeing something for Project Nova this year but that hope has diminished seeing CCP Shanghai had to focus pushing out a different release this year instead. I'll still be around but see no reason to speculate any further. I am past the point of cheerful hope and am to the point of embittered silence. I know some fanboys may think I have no right to be irritated with CCP but I am sure others are also irritated like me. I cannot be bought, but I can be leased.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8643	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:48:00 - [44] - Quote Nomed Deeps wrote: Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I've done all the speculation on Project Nova I am willing to. I'm tired; tired of having to speculate due to no official info and tired of waiting for CCP to provide any actual info. I had hope of seeing something for Project Nova this year but that hope has diminished seeing CCP Shanghai had to focus pushing out a different release this year instead. I'll still be around but see no reason to speculate any further. I am past the point of cheerful hope and am to the point of embittered silence. I know some fanboys may think I have no right to be irritated with CCP but I am sure others are also irritated like me. Oh you totally have the right to be irritated with the lack of communication. I am too but I try to be positive nevertheless. I am confused though why you seem to think that Shanghai is only working on one game at a time though. Gunjack is a significantly smaller game being produced by a different team within Shanghai and has very little bearing on the work being done on Nova. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
byte modal 1050	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:55:00 - [45] - Quote Dust Fiend has a very good point from a marketing perspective. Why create a product that will only cannibalize your primary product's customer base? The point is to bring new customers to the table. Not everyone has the appetite for EvE. How does CCP bring those hungry for another genre into the fold, and with them their wallets? By providing something not EvE. Making that observation does not exclude the idea of creating a FPS with EvE-like depth. The FPS in and of itself is potentially the not EvE that is needed. We are still in the EvE universe, so whatever this FPS becomes, it should still follow the rules therein and all the hopes and dreams most of us DUSTers expected (I'm looking at you, Pokey. Well. Not you. I'm not that creepy. But. I'm looking at my monitor as I type this, thinking of you. But not in a dreamy crush kind of way either. That's far creepier. I'm.... looking at your forum AV. That's avatar. Not Anti-Vehicle. ugh....) A proper FPS that follows the EvE model (for as much as a FPS can) and with a reasonable connection to EvE can still attract a shooter fan base. If nothing else, it will get attention from those that are looking for a game with depth, but aren't really into the spreadsheet mindset of EvE players. But at the end of the day, EvE players as a whole may have no interest in FPS. Just as FPS gamers will have no interest in EvE style gaming. Sure, there are the few of us that overlap, but I doubt the remaining 20 of us are enough of a market to serve ;) As long as the FPS has enough of a connection to give EvE-side pilots something interesting without having to jump to a second game to interact with it, I think EvE pilots may be good. Bring more players in. Otherwise, CCP will end up supporting two development teams with the same one income of their primary game. If both games are played by the same player base, that is. It does sadden me some to say that, as I had my own dream of what DUST should have been, but I'm not sure my hopes matter all that much when it's all said and done. kitten bacon taco (nom)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7923	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:55:00 - [46] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Except a Dust like game on PC is exactly like that. A EVE-like FPS that appeals to the kind of player that enjoy that style of system design. I'm not exactly sure how you can make a game that doesn't appease EVE players without it betraying the core elements that you yourself said are important. But you'll never have a spread sheet style FPS, and if you want to get good in this style of FPS, you have to commit a good amount of time. The more time you spend getting good at Nova, the less time you spend blowing up things in EVE. Even if Nova were the best thing ever for EVE players and made their spread sheet condoms fill with joy, it would just mean they'd move from EVE to Nova. It just seems odd to make your target audience one that's already invested in your primary game. Don't you want to expand the player base of both games, rather than dwindle one while helping to exclude the average gamer from the other? If the game is simplistic and easy to pick up, it will probably not appeal to EVE players. Yet, if it's as layered and complex as EVE, it will naturally push away the more average and casual player. I guess I just don't see the sense in primarily targeting EVE players, instead of giving EVE players a reason to invest EVE side. There are a lot of people who are interested in EVE, follow developments in EVE, but just can't commit the time to all the study and spreadsheets that are required to play EVE effectively. I have met a lot of gamers, some even at work, who think the EVE universe is really cool, but just can't commit the time required to play it themselves. I am talking about people who have never played EVE, but can tell you the story of BOB vs Goons, or some great Corp hist, or explain how PHD students in Economics study the EVE economy. These people are an eager, untapped, market. And then there are EVE players who sometimes want more human interaction than a spaceship avatar provides. The new New Eden FPS needs to be simple when you first get into it (default to pre-made suits) so that new players don't have to learn everything at once, and then allow them to progress into more complex game mechanics (custom fits) when they are ready. It needs to be more complex than other FPS's on the market but less complex than EVE. That will insure that it attracts the FPS players who want more depth, as well as EVE players who what a break from the constant study required to be effective in EVE. It will also provide an entry point into the New Eden universe which is not as daunting and intimidating as EVE Online, but still with a reasonable amount of the complexity that makes EVE the Thinking Man's MMO. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DUST Fiend 18775	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:56:00 - [47] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I am confused though why you seem to think that Shanghai is only working on one game at a time though. Gunjack is a significantly smaller game being produced by a different team within Shanghai and has very little bearing on the work being done on Nova. How can you be confused that CCP shattered the trust of many DUST players? At least he's quiet about it. Really we just have to put all this talk behind us until one day CCP does or does not release real, meaningful, tangible information on a sequel. I can't speak for him or anyone else but it just seems like many here would rather entirely forget about DUST or just hold onto the memories than speculate on what's still just a maybe. Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8643	Posted - 2016.10.11 16:58:00 - [48] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I am confused though why you seem to think that Shanghai is only working on one game at a time though. Gunjack is a significantly smaller game being produced by a different team within Shanghai and has very little bearing on the work being done on Nova. How can you be confused that CCP shattered the trust of many DUST players? At least he's quiet about it. Really we just have to put all this talk behind us until one day CCP does or does not release real, meaningful, tangible information on a sequel. I can't speak for him or anyone else but it just seems like many here would rather entirely forget about DUST or just hold onto the memories than speculate on what's still just a maybe. More confused about the lack of understanding of how development studios work. Especially since there is quite a bit of communication about the development of Nova scattered about on the forums, Skype, discord ect. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7923	Posted - 2016.10.11 17:12:00 - [49] - Quote To the point of making the new FPS simple for some and complex for others, I like the idea of a few Default fits that are as good as anything else on the field (Proto level, not crappy Militia), so that those who want it simple don't have to learn the fitting system, but anyone who wants to do anything non standard or use weapons not included in the few standard fits, have to learn the fitting system and get into the deep complexity of the game. You could also have pre-set training plans for each pre-made suit, so those who want to keep it simple can pick a pre-set training plan and not have to wary about what skills to train. Then COD players and EVE players could be happy in the same game. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DUST Fiend 18775	Posted - 2016.10.11 17:13:00 - [50] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: More confused about the lack of understanding of how development studios work. Especially since there is quite a bit of communication about the development of Nova scattered about on the forums, Skype, discord ect. It's probably just a lack of faith in their management. Legion was "being developed". DUST was "being developed". WoD was "being developed". And really? "Quite a bit of info" Really? .... Reeeaaaaallllyyyyy? Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8643	Posted - 2016.10.11 17:18:00 - [51] - Quote I guess you don't talk to the same people I do. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18775	Posted - 2016.10.11 17:20:00 - [52] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I guess you don't talk to the same people I do. I guess maybe CCP should make their "info" more readily available instead of giving it to randoms to lord over others with. Anywho, I feel that this is my tipping point in this thread so I will casually crash through the wall opposite to the one I entered. Good day. Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8643	Posted - 2016.10.11 17:25:00 - [53] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I guess you don't talk to the same people I do. I guess maybe CCP should make their "info" more readily available instead of giving it to randoms to lord over others with. Anywho, I feel that this is my tipping point in this thread so I will casually crash through the wall opposite to the one I entered. Good day. No, I just read every Dev and CPM post, tweet, Skype, and Discord message. It's all available for everyone to read and if you set the emotional bias aside, its an easy logical conclusion. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2954	Posted - 2016.10.11 17:33:00 - [54] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. That's exactly why I think it's a mistake not to leave the FPS on consoles.... There's too much overlap in the people who play PC shooters, and the people who already play EVE. Consoles are a completely separate player base to tap into. But hey, what do I know. Join the DUST STEAM GROUP
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8643	Posted - 2016.10.11 17:37:00 - [55] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. That's exactly why I think it's a mistake not to leave the FPS on consoles.... There's too much overlap in the people who play PC shooters, and the people who already play EVE. Consoles are a completely separate player base to tap into. But hey, what do I know. Unfortunately they're also far more limited when it comes to forward compatibility. Sadly there are already many games running on both PC and PS4, and the PC version is more limited than it needs to be so its all compatible with the console counterpart. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Viktor Hadah Jr 0uter.Heaven 10246	Posted - 2016.10.11 18:09:00 - [56] - Quote the less meta gameplay makes me very skeptical about how long i will be playing Nova. Through all the sh*t gameplay i played dust because of the meta gameplay and internet space politics. I don't know how long i am willing to play a game that is just good gameplay but not something that can grasp my attention for the long haul. Keys and lockboxes are the root of all evil. 21 Day EVE Trial Bitches
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7924	Posted - 2016.10.11 18:56:00 - [57] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. Actually running it that way wouldn't be entirely nonsensical. Keep SP pools seperate of course, and given how Valkyrie has a unique currency (VISK) I could see them using the same concept for Nova to get around that issue initially. Existing Dust characters could also be converted to EVE Alpha Clones as well as Nova clones if characters are shared. It would effectively let Dust players use their name in EVE and EVE players in Nova, which is kinda appealing. Also have an open currency exchange market, and let market forces set the exchange rate. Let the players decide how much VISK they would pay for 1 ISK and visa versa. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7924	Posted - 2016.10.11 19:13:00 - [58] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. I can sort of see the appeal to that but it seems like a ton of work to basically give your Nova character your EVE name. You're always in your dropsuit, and I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain DUST clones used an entirely different process of cloning than capsuleers. Wouldn't it just be easier to link your accounts so when you sign in you have the same name? None of your EVE skills or assets would apply so aside from RP, what would be the point in developing that tech? The point would be that instead of shutting down one game, waiting for it to shut down, then starting and logging into the other game, you could just hit one button and then go to the fridge or take a bathroom break while the other game loads up. It gives a more seamless experience. The jumpclone bit is just for Lore and to explain why your interface changes. The ability to download your mind into different types of clones is simply a development in Lore, and from a technical standpoint is nothing but a loading screen. As to always being in your dropsuit, I would like to see the ability to download your mind into higher quality clones (the type used by EVE pilots) for social interaction between battles. Provide meeting spaces such as Bars. When you que for a battle, then you download your mind into one of those cheap battleclones that the clone vat robotics have equipped with the dropsuit fit of your choice. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7924	Posted - 2016.10.11 19:32:00 - [59] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. That's exactly why I think it's a mistake not to leave the FPS on consoles.... There's too much overlap in the people who play PC shooters, and the people who already play EVE. Consoles are a completely separate player base to tap into. But hey, what do I know. People who pay $15/month playing EVE probably have enough money to buy a Skin in Nova once in a while. In fact the layers and accountants running multiple accounts in EVE probably can afford to buy lots of nice looking Skins in Nova. I don't buy the argument about splitting your market. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 16065	Posted - 2016.10.11 20:00:00 - [60] - Quote Even though I just play on consoles, I think that Nova being on PC right now is still the best step forward. There is much more freedom for CCP to work with, and they already have PC development down pat, not to mention an established fan base. I very much hope that Nova comes to consoles, and I think there are a lot of good business reasons to do so, including increasing the size of their audience significantly. I just think that the best way of getting to that point is for Nova to be on PC at this stage of development. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2954	Posted - 2016.10.11 20:56:00 - [61] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. That's exactly why I think it's a mistake not to leave the FPS on consoles.... There's too much overlap in the people who play PC shooters, and the people who already play EVE. Consoles are a completely separate player base to tap into. But hey, what do I know. People who pay $15/month playing EVE probably have enough money to buy a Skin in Nova once in a while. In fact the layers and accountants running multiple accounts in EVE probably can afford to buy lots of nice looking Skins in Nova. I don't buy the argument about splitting your market. The FPS crowd and the MMO crowd are pretty separate demographics. Placing the FPS on the platform that favors FPS' the most would reach the broadest amount of total people, which would be best for everyone in the long run.... this has nothing to do with whether EVE players can afford Dust skins.... Join the DUST STEAM GROUP
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 21:37:00 - [62] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: I came from EvE. I started with it way back, I now count myself as a long-liner, even though since Dust I have hardly played it. My first impression of Dust was through the EvE interface as it was going to be - Walking In Stations. That ultimately never came to fruition, other than being able to walk around the Captain's Quarters, which was the EvE version of the Merc's Quarters in Dust. Probably the best thing about that was the ability to fully customise your avatar, something Dust never actually got. I would like to see the addition of an MMO/Social aspect to both games. Have the ability to activate a customized clone in a space station and enter a Bar or Corporate Retreat, or some other meeting establishment. (The fire marshal could impose limits on the number of patrons in an establishment, which would conveniently control lag with a lore explanation.) Automatically activate a voice chat channel for the establishment with proximity controls on volume so only the people close to you are at full volume and the people farther away recede into background noise. Then have a raised voice/Shout option that would allow everyone in the establishment to hear you, and a whisper option to talk to just one specific person. Public bars would be great for meeting new people to play with or to recruit for your Corp. (A complain to management option, where a certain number of complaints would get someone thrown out, should help deal with those who would be deliberately annoying or racist/sexist, etc.) Private rooms could be used to negotiate with Officers from other Corps. Corporate Retreats could be used to socialize with Corp members between matches, and for Corp meetings. It would really add to the MMO aspect of the game, make it feel a lot less like just a lobby shooter, and would not be all that hard to setup as there would be no combat mechanics. Walking In Stations was going to be that MMO/Social aspect, in EvE, and as I understood it, this was going to have a mirror in Dust. While I'm thinking about all this, casting my mind back, the reason I was so late to come back to Dust after being a Beta player was that I didn't actually know it was still going. I had initially looked at it, and with the cancellation of Walking In Stations, lost interest, and didn't follow the game as it developed in a different direction. What it actually turned into looked good when I finally did revisit, and I'm kicking myself that I didn't come back earlier. I managed to get to Caldari Proto level for Scout, Assault and Logi in the time I still had (less than a year) and can only dream of what I could have achieved if I'd come back sooner. I count the dropping of Walking In Stations as the primary event which stymied me for Dust. There would have been a host of players in EvE that would have "come across" if CCP had continued down that path, instead of listening to the usual vocal minority poo-pooing everything new. So much opportunity was lost. Now, with Nova, we have the chance to fix that, if CCP can plan it right and stick to that plan.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 21:44:00 - [63] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I don't expect SC levels either, in fact it's impossible to deliver that kind of combat without basically ripping EVE apart and that simply won't happen. However you also need to bear in mind that EVE players will be the primary targeted audience with Nova, and I'm a firm believer that EVE players would not be satisfied with the game unless it exhibited a similar level of depth and customization that EVE provides. I really doubt too many EVE players will take the time away from EVE to play a game that doesn't remotely resemble EVE. Making a game that directly competes with your primary source of income doesn't seem like the greatest bet to me. It would serve them far better to make Nova worthwhile to EVE players while they're still within EVE, through a stronger connection or even the arena matches we were teased with so long ago. Making an FPS to appease EVE players is just destined to fail, or at the very least fracture the community. Making an FPS that draws people further into EVE, that feels like a better direction to take. Also, that argument is pure garbage, because EVE was pretty crappy when it came out but was steadily built upon over time. At no time did EVE players as a whole express any interest in the continuation of DUST, or diverting assets to the game in order to keep up with the kind of updates that took EVE from a meh game to a memorable experience. EVE players want things for EVE. Some might like a nice shooter, but unless it directly benefits them back in EVE I don't see them giving much of a ****. My primary belief with Dust (and still is with Nova) that an FPS should ENHANCE the EvE experience, be part of the same world, not compete against it. This is at least part of the reason I believe there should be a single sign-on for all CCP gaimes, at least that use the EvE database. That way, people don't have to decide they want to start a new account in say, Nova, when they already have an account in EvE. They can just dl the content to whatever platform, and activation of that content sets a flag which turns on that functionality or something. I agree, EvE players want things that are good for EvE. Making Dust/Nova something that adds to their experience, enhances the game, would give them the option of playing a FPS, or just enjoy the fact that it s existence enriches (to whatever extent) their own EvE experience. Same goes for all of CCPs games.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8653	Posted - 2016.10.11 21:51:00 - [64] - Quote Clearly the best option is to develop Nova for Leap Frog to reach the widest possible and most polar opposite demographic. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Maken Tosch Dust University Ivy League 13644	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:17:00 - [65] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: More confused about the lack of understanding of how development studios work. Especially since there is quite a bit of communication about the development of Nova scattered about on the forums, Skype, discord ect. It's probably just a lack of faith in their management. Legion was "being developed". DUST was "being developed". WoD was "being developed". And really? "Quite a bit of info" Really? .... Reeeaaaaallllyyyyy? Actually we were given vastly more information on Project Nova than all of the previous projects that never saw the light of day (WoD & Legion) combined. At least with Nova Fanfest attendees were given a functional game to try out that was run on Steam via a server located in Germany with the game played online in Iceland. CCP could have just stuck to making it a local LAN party but instead they went further than that. We also know who is working on the maps (CCP LogicLoop), who is the executive producer for Nova (CCP Rattati), we know that the game has a new weapon we never saw before (Minmatar Precision Rifle), we know which engine it's being developed on (Unreal Engine 4) which is what everyone on the forums was asking CCP to do in the first place, we know it's very likely going to be on Steam given how the demo worked at Fanfest 2016, and CCP LogicLoop even gave us a glimpse of what his new map might look like on twitter (I'll be honest here, it was a rough pen sketch on a napkin) and that was during his first week since his return to CCP as Senior Level Designer. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:20:00 - [66] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: There was a lot of opposition in the EVE community to integrating DUST more fully with EVE. I think a lot of that was due to DUST being on a different platform so EVE players could not play DUST on the same hardware they played EVE on. With Nova being on PC that barrier is removed. Also with other spaceship games promising to provide a first or third person avatar experience, demand for something similar in EVE should increase, and the competition should put pressure on CCP to implement something like that. I was right there talking to the EvE players at the time of Dust's introduction, the Walking In Stations debacle, the introduction of new full-body avatars, all those initial abortive moves by CCP that noone in EvE wanted. It was because they didn't see why a new game was being developed when there were so many (to their minds) bugs with EvE. They wanted the bugs fixed before new functionality was added, so they didn't like Captain's Quarters. There are some to this day that have never loaded Captain's Quarters because of their hatred of the concept. To that point, they hadn't seen a single improvement to EvE that derived from anything that was being developed, in their minds, for Dust. Since EvE still has a stub of an interface to the FPS (whatever it's called) in Captain's Quarters and the Door, it's still possible down the track to integrate them, particularly since Nova is now being initially developed with gameplay on ships and stations. It would be logical to make the Door part of that interface. Fox Gaden wrote: There was mention at one of the Fanfests (the one with the Legion announcement) of letting you chose on the loading screen which game you enter and being able to use the same character in all three games. They even made a change to the database to make that possible. But I agree, I think you should be able to switch from one game to another without leaving the game. It can't be that hard to automate shutting one game down and opening another. The Jump Clone mechanic makes the transition easy lore wise. Yes, it would mean a long loading screen, but it would make all the games feel like part of the same game without having to fully integrate the game engines. They could play the latest Scope News clip while you are waiting to entertain players while the other game loaded. This would be an extremely positive move. Yes, the database has to have been changed to allow it to be used with multiple games, even if only in functionality to lock accounts into one game or the other. Using those elements to instead SELECT which game you're in would be logical. I think the EvE community might still have an issue with the game transition, similar to the issue they had with Walking In Stations, unless and until they see some benefits to them in having that functionality available to others. It would have to enhance their game (in EvE) for others to have access to these other games for them to see any benefit. That would likely be some sort of economic thing - more EvE players accessing Dust/Nova and buying equipment which had been manufactured in EvE would give a positive slant to it for at least EvE manufacturing players.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:30:00 - [67] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I've been pretty clear that all I really want out of Nova is the combined arms aspect and a stronger EVE link of some kind. I guess it just rubs me the wrong way to think that EVE players are the primary target audience when all they bothered to do was **** all over DUST the entire time it was alive, and likely won't have a whole lot of interest in anyways if it doesn't directly benefit them EVE side. I have a lot of EvE friends who when they found out that Dust was shutting down, lamented to me that they'd "always wanted" to play Dust, and sort of thought it would be around forever, like EvE has been. Not everyone saw Dust the same way in EvE. Many liked the idea of being able to run around in buildings or on the surface in a FPS. I think for a lot of them, the idea that they might have been chastised by other EvE players may however have given them pause.... Your point about it having to directly benefit the EvE players IN THE EvE ENVIRONMENT, I think is pivotal. There are EvE players who will never play a FPS, EvE-related or otherwise. Those players will not be sympathetic to the introduction of any CCP game that doesn't enhance their EvE experience. All that would need to happen to satisfy that requirement would be a truly functional manufacturing to market link between EvE and Dust/Nova. Make all equipment, modules, suits and weapons in Dust/Nova manufactured by EvE indy players enhances the economy of EvE. Making the transition from one to the other and back again easier would also allow players to get the "best of both worlds" if they wanted.
DUST Fiend 18783	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:30:00 - [68] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: More confused about the lack of understanding of how development studios work. Especially since there is quite a bit of communication about the development of Nova scattered about on the forums, Skype, discord ect. It's probably just a lack of faith in their management. Legion was "being developed". DUST was "being developed". WoD was "being developed". And really? "Quite a bit of info" Really? .... Reeeaaaaallllyyyyy? Actually we were given vastly more information on Project Nova than all of the previous projects that never saw the light of day (WoD & Legion) combined. At least with Nova Fanfest attendees were given a functional game to try out that was run on Steam via a server located in Germany with the game played online in Iceland. CCP could have just stuck to making it a local LAN party but instead they went further than that. We also know who is working on the maps (CCP LogicLoop), who is the executive producer for Nova (CCP Rattati), we know that the game has a new weapon we never saw before (Minmatar Precision Rifle), we know which engine it's being developed on (Unreal Engine 4) which is what everyone on the forums was asking CCP to do in the first place, we know it's very likely going to be on Steam given how the demo worked at Fanfest 2016, and CCP LogicLoop even gave us a glimpse of what his new map might look like on twitter (I'll be honest here, it was a rough pen sketch on a napkin) and that was during his first week since his return to CCP as Senior Level Designer. DUST Fiend has taken his meds. Feels like marshmallow. Even though I stated earlier that I don't expect SC level design from CCP, I suppose I've gotten comfortable with that style of transparency. It makes me cozy inside watching devs do dev work. Mellow fiend, jigglin awaaayy Flux it, I'M BATMAN! Also, swear filter doesn't work on signatures. I think it's related to Scotty.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:32:00 - [69] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. I totally agree with everything you just said.
byte modal 1051	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:38:00 - [70] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. That's exactly why I think it's a mistake not to leave the FPS on consoles.... There's too much overlap in the people who play PC shooters, and the people who already play EVE. Consoles are a completely separate player base to tap into. But hey, what do I know. People who pay $15/month playing EVE probably have enough money to buy a Skin in Nova once in a while. In fact the layers and accountants running multiple accounts in EVE probably can afford to buy lots of nice looking Skins in Nova. I don't buy the argument about splitting your market. Is not the point of a business to maximize profit? In the case of CCP, I assume that EvE is their bread and butter. Which path would lead to higher potential profit gains: create a secondary product that mostly attracts those that are already part of your customer base, effectively sharing profits and resources between them? Yes, you will have some that will pay for both, but you will have others that will compromise choosing which product they wish to invest in. Customer A: Do I buy extra PLEX or a few skins in my FPS? or Create a secondary product that mostly attracts those outside of your current customer base with the potential of profits above what is already linked to your primary product? Yes, there will be current customers that will have no interest in the secondary product, but you increase your chances of attracting new and additional customers that had no interest in the primary product. Customer A: I'll buy extra PLEX. New* Customer B: I'll buy some skins.* Please note that I am not arguing platform development. Just the point about splitting your market. Do most of these accountants have interest in FPS shooters? Note: most. Not some. Where is that line through the masses? Do you know? I am genuinely curious where most of the players fall. kitten bacon taco (nom)

Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:40:00 - [71] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. Actually running it that way wouldn't be entirely nonsensical. Keep SP pools seperate of course, and given how Valkyrie has a unique currency (VISK) I could see them using the same concept for Nova to get around that issue initially. Existing Dust characters could also be converted to EVE Alpha Clones as well as Nova clones if characters are shared. It would effectively let Dust players use their name in EVE and EVE players in Nova, which is kinda appealing. SP by definition would be separate - the skills involved would be different in each game. They're already on the database, which must have been expanded to allow additional skills for each game. The idea of SP pooling has been evolving in EvE as well, in that the facility exists to have a pool of SP which can be applied to a skill, for instance, if one skill is deprecated, and you are refunded the SP to use somewhere else. I don't see why that pool needs to be separate - if someone chooses to apply SP they've earnt in one game to a different game, that's not going to hurt anyone much. The biggest hurdle will be the way SP is accumulated - in Dust it was by addition over time to a pool and then "spent" buying the skill levels. In EvE, it's accumulated on your actively training skill. I think they could easily change that to allow accumulation of SP in some sort of holding skill (to act as a pool) until it was transferred, but I don't know how that would sit with a lot of the existing EvE players.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:44:00 - [72] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. I can sort of see the appeal to that but it seems like a ton of work to basically give your Nova character your EVE name. You're always in your dropsuit, and I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain DUST clones used an entirely different process of cloning than capsuleers. Wouldn't it just be easier to link your accounts so when you sign in you have the same name? None of your EVE skills or assets would apply so aside from RP, what would be the point in developing that tech? All true, but it would be easier to just allow people to use the one account for everything. For those of us who already have one or more accounts in each of Dust and EvE, of course, we may choose to keep them separate, so we can have the same character and name we had in Dust. But it would actually be harder from a database perspective to link accounts as you suggest. Since the functionality is already in the database to allow the one account to function in any game, it makes sense to leverage that rather than add the account link as you suggest.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:50:00 - [73] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. However, it also makes sense to seed your game initially with players you know will at the very least try the game out for a while, which are EVE players and Dust players with PCs. That being said of you don't develop the game in such a way that is Appealing to those groups, you lost the huge asset of having an existing playerbase...this is particularly important if they go with a F2P model since player count is critical to maintain games with that model. I guess I've just seen enough vitriol from EVE players towards DUST that I don't really trust them to do anything but try and drag the game down if they feel it draws away from EVE in any way. The game is going to start off without much of an EVE connection, so the first thing EVE players will experience is...not EVE? Just seems like a weird way to go about it. Naturally there will be crossover so at the end of the day this argument is moot, I just feel like if EVE players truly were the target audience, removing that EVE link is probably not the first thing you want them to experience. Not all EvE players tried to drag down Dust. A vocal minority did, but many were quite happy with the idea. I'm one of that many. There will always be nay-sayers. The key is to listen to anything constructive people have to say, including the nay-sayers, if they have anything more to add than just denigration. Then you plan and stick to that plan, and produce the best outcome you can. I see the initial lack of a substantial EvE link as being a potential stumbling block. While I think I understand the reticence, I do think that is a negative move, given EvE players are the initial target audience.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 22:56:00 - [74] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I really doubt too many EVE players will take the time away from EVE to play a game that doesn't remotely resemble EVE. Making a game that directly competes with your primary source of income doesn't seem like the greatest bet to me. It would serve them far better to make Nova worthwhile to EVE players while they're still within EVE, through a stronger connection or even the arena matches we were teased with so long ago. Making an FPS to appease EVE players is just destined to fail, or at the very least fracture the community. Making an FPS that draws people further into EVE, that feels like a better direction to take. I think I mostly agree with you. Any of the 3 games (4 if a version of Gunjack comes to the PC) should be an independent entry point for new players. The player should then have the option to get involved with one of the other games if they chose by acquiring a Small Ships Pilots license, Large Ship Pilot license, or Infantry Rating. The games should stand on their own, but be tied together through shared markets, shared organizations (Corps, Alliances), and shared impacts (Holding a District effecting taxes on Planetary Interaction in the district, or the bonuses to make the cost of maintaining a station at the planet less costly, etc.) The effects on the other games on the game you are playing should only impact a player once they get more heavily into the meta-game (Planetary Conquest, Faction Warfare, POS management, Planetary Interaction in Low Sec/Null Sec, etc.) Players who just do PUBs in DUST2 or Highsec Industry in EVE should not see any effects from the other games. The games can have separate monetization, so CCP gets more out of you if you chose to play more than one of the games, which is fare since they would have separate development teams. Agreed. The potential for this is epic. I would say that the existing ISK/AURUM system would suffice for everything that CCP wants to achieve financial, and economically, both inside and outside the games. The introduction of some form of F2P for every game is crucial. That gets people in the door so to speak, then when they're inside the New Eden universe they are free to roam around on the one account, trying out different games, and deciding which if any they want to pay real world money into. If there's a link like this between the games, I think it's crucial that all the games share the same economy.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:07:00 - [75] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I guess you don't talk to the same people I do. I guess maybe CCP should make their "info" more readily available instead of giving it to randoms to lord over others with. Anywho, I feel that this is my tipping point in this thread so I will casually crash through the wall opposite to the one I entered. Good day. No, I just read every Dev and CPM post, tweet, Skype, and Discord message. It's all available for everyone to read and if you set the emotional bias aside, its an easy logical conclusion. While I agree in principle with what you say, the OFFICIAL place for information to be disseminated was/is the fora. I read every Dev and CPM post as well, but clearly they didn't/don't have everything, if you have to also read tweets, Skype and Discord to get the information. I certainly don't know half of what you apparently do. That means by definition, some people are being told things that aren't being told to others, at least through the official channels.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:10:00 - [76] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I won't disagree that end goal should be to pull players that are not involved in NewEden into the universe. That is s good plan and something that EVE has struggled with but an FPS has a better chance at. That's exactly why I think it's a mistake not to leave the FPS on consoles.... There's too much overlap in the people who play PC shooters, and the people who already play EVE. Consoles are a completely separate player base to tap into. But hey, what do I know. I think having a common platform for development of games is critical. That would be the PC. Port appropriate games to other platforms as necessary to leverage the player base on those platforms. Nova should definitely port to console after it's been developed for PC.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:13:00 - [77] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: No, I expect CCP to cheat. Just have your EVE character jumpclone into a DUST clone (close EVE and open DUST2 in the background while you watch the latest Scope News broadcast) and then your EVE character is walking around in a dropsuit ready for some FPS action. You get to have FPS and Spaceships in the same game without having to go single shard and seamless. The whole Jumpclone technology of uploading your consciousness to the net and downloading into a new body really makes it easy since by definition it is not a seamless transition. Actually running it that way wouldn't be entirely nonsensical. Keep SP pools seperate of course, and given how Valkyrie has a unique currency (VISK) I could see them using the same concept for Nova to get around that issue initially. Existing Dust characters could also be converted to EVE Alpha Clones as well as Nova clones if characters are shared. It would effectively let Dust players use their name in EVE and EVE players in Nova, which is kinda appealing. Also have an open currency exchange market, and let market forces set the exchange rate. Let the players decide how much VISK they would pay for 1 ISK and visa versa. Just use the same two currencies, ISK and AURUM, and have an open market for everything, let market forces dictate prices of everything, and therefore the economic links between all games.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8663	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:34:00 - [78] - Quote Well you can share currency but then the rate of Isk injection must be the same, which is significantly higher in EVE than it ever was in DUST. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1207	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:48:00 - [79] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Well you can share currency but then the rate of Isk injection must be the same, which is significantly higher in EVE than it ever was in DUST. Why does it have to be the same? Why can't the economy work over all of New Eden, no matter which game you're in? As for ISK injection, in EvE you have to earn all your ISK, by running missions, mining, manufacturing, marketing, whatever. People need to earn enough ISK to pay for the equipment and goods they want to buy, which is a self-regulating thing built on supply and demand. If Nova allowed people to accept contracts for variable amounts, set by the player issuing the contract, then the amount a player can earn in Nova would also be completely variable. Missions are seen as basic bread-and-butter to EvE pilots along with ratting and anoms. The same sort of basic almost-guaranteed income should be available in all New Eden games with the options to trade and contract for more income and better game play. Edit: You do a lot less as a foot soldier in Nova than you do as a pilot in EvE. 20 minute PvE missions vary wildly in their monetary rewards, based on what you do in those missions, how critical they are. EvE missions can run for hours or even days, as well, to get the big bucks. The amount of ISK paid for any mission should be based on what you do in that mission, not on the time spent. You can do a lot more with a battle cruiser than you can with a rifle.
DeadlyAztec11 9662	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:50:00 - [80] - Quote Here's the thing, good gameplay is what is going to attract people first, people from the mainstream shooting arena. Secondly, The universe is going to be about retention, but is almost always going to have to be second. It is incredibly difficult to make a well playing shooter mostly about the universe. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.

Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1209	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:54:00 - [81] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Here's the thing, good gameplay is what is going to attract people first, people from the mainstream shooting arena. Secondly, The universe is going to be about retention, but is almost always going to have to be second. It is incredibly difficult to make a well playing shooter mostly about the universe. I don't think the well playing shooter needs to be "mostly about the universe". A well playing shooter will be a well playing shooter. The "universe" bit is going to be about the lore, the economy, the ability to enhance both Nova and EvE by the presence of both games and the option to play either one, within the same universe.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8663	Posted - 2016.10.12 04:24:00 - [82] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: While I agree in principle with what you say, the OFFICIAL place for information to be disseminated was/is the fora. I read every Dev and CPM post as well, but clearly they didn't/don't have everything, if you have to also read tweets, Skype and Discord to get the information. I certainly don't know half of what you apparently do. That means by definition, some people are being told things that aren't being told to others, at least through the official channels. To be fair, we're on a forum for a game that doesn't exist anymore. I don't think an "Official" place exists for Nova at this time. Alena Asakura wrote: I think having a common platform for development of games is critical. That would be the PC. Port appropriate games to other platforms as necessary to leverage the player base on those platforms. Nova should definitely port to console after it's been developed for PC. i agree. That would be ideal if feasible. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8664	Posted - 2016.10.12 04:45:00 - [83] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Well you can share currency but then the rate of Isk injection must be the same, which is significantly higher in EVE than it ever was in DUST. Why does it have to be the same? Why can't the economy work over all of New Eden, no matter which game you're in? As for ISK injection, in EvE you have to earn all your ISK, by running missions, mining, manufacturing, marketing, whatever. People need to earn enough ISK to pay for the equipment and goods they want to buy, which is a self-regulating thing built on supply and demand. If Nova allowed people to accept contracts for variable amounts, set by the player issuing the contract, then the amount a player can earn in Nova would also be completely variable. Missions are seen as basic bread-and-butter to EvE pilots along with ratting and anoms. The same sort of basic almost-guaranteed income should be available in all New Eden games with the options to trade and contract for more income and better game play. Edit: You do a lot less as a foot soldier in Nova than you do as a pilot in EvE. 20 minute PvE missions vary wildly in their monetary rewards, based on what you do in those missions, how critical they are. EvE missions can run for hours or even days, as well, to get the big bucks. The amount of ISK paid for any mission should be based on what you do in that mission, not on the time spent. You can do a lot more with a battle cruiser than you can with a rifle. Ok so this is a very good question so let me try to explain my thoughts as clearly as possible. Is there anything wrong with the free market determining the price of goods between the two games? Absolutely not. Free market is one of the major reasons EVE online is so interesting and I have no issue with it. However what I do take issue with is how that money is generated between the two games. For the sake of argument (and we can cover player contracts at a later time as that is less problematic) lets focus on the bread and butter of raw ISK injections into the game. PvE missions/ratting of about the same time investment so we're comparing apples to apples. For simplicity sake, lets say a Nova match nets you around 200k ISK every 20 minutes from doing a standard low-risk mission. Lets say a a high-sec Level 4 EVE mission that takes about 20 minutes nets you about 2 million ISK (This is actually pretty low, but we'll use it for easy math) So at this point, you can effectively generate ISK at 10 times the rate in EVE compared to Nova (200,000 vs 2,000,000) which means it is far more efficient to hop on EVE, run a 20 minute mission, and then go back to Nova with the amount of cash that would have taken you about 10 times as long to earn in Nova. Immediately it's already apparent that players who invest a little time in EVE are going to have a much easier time generating money and thus able to operate at a much higher level simply due to income efficiency. So players are already encouraged to NOT play Nova to make money. Secondly, we have to look at inflation of prices. Lets assume that this market operates in a vacuum for a moment. The players who are playing EVE for their ISK generation are going to have a lot more of it than players who exclusively earn through Nova. With that being said, larger amounts of ISK in the market means that the relative value of said ISK goes down, which will cause prices to go up, this is simple inflation. So now prices are being dragged up be the inflated bank accounts of Nova players who use EVE, where the Nova exclusive players are locked in at an income rate of 10%. That means that Nova players will need to play 5-10 as many matches as Nova/Eve players just to keep up with the inflated prices from the free market. Now lets consider the already massive amounts of funds available in EVE right now. I personally have over 2 billion sitting on an EVE character and I am by no means rich in the EVE universe, far from it. So the moment that market opens up, you will see yet a further increase in the prices of items on the market due to rampant inflation. So now Nova exclusive players are generating 10% of what Nova/EVE players are making and prices are much higher than the ISK income of Nova exclusive players can reasonably maintain. So why would anyone want to play Nova to make money? So now if we take say player contracts into account. Yes, Nova players would be able to generate money off of EVE players but that doesnt solve the problem of effectively rendering the ISK gain from Nova exclusively obsolete because it is far smaller in the grand scheme of things, yet ISK gain in EVE is still very viable. You have effectively made ISK gain in Nova so inconsequentially small that it's wasted content. Imagine how that would be for someone brand new to the game who comes in, has to start off running cheap missions because they're new, and realizing that the money they earned from a match isn't enough to buy them the gear they need to run another match due to inflation and the low relative value of ISK payouts? That's going to be incredibly frustrating and turn off a lot of new players, as well as more casual players that rely on those types of matches and payouts to enjoy the game they want to (and there is nothing wrong with that kind of player) EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1210	Posted - 2016.10.12 07:37:00 - [84] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Ok so this is a very good question so let me try to explain my thoughts as clearly as possible. Is there anything wrong with the free market determining the price of goods between the two games? Absolutely not. Free market is one of the major reasons EVE online is so interesting and I have no issue with it. However what I do take issue with is how that money is generated between the two games. For the sake of argument (and we can cover player contracts at a later time as that is less problematic) lets focus on the bread and butter of raw ISK injections into the game. PvE missions/ratting of about the same time investment so we're comparing apples to apples. For simplicity sake, lets say a Nova match nets you around 200k ISK every 20 minutes from doing a standard low-risk mission. Lets say a a high-sec Level 4 EVE mission that takes about 20 minutes nets you about 2 million ISK (This is actually pretty low, but we'll use it for easy math) So at this point, you can effectively generate ISK at 10 times the rate in EVE compared to Nova (200,000 vs 2,000,000) which means it is far more efficient to hop on EVE, run a 20 minute mission, and then go back to Nova with the amount of cash that would have taken you about 10 times as long to earn in Nova. Immediately it's already apparent that players who invest a little time in EVE are going to have a much easier time generating money and thus able to operate at a much higher level simply due to income efficiency. So players are already encouraged to NOT play Nova to make money. Secondly, we have to look at inflation of prices. Lets assume that this market operates in a vacuum for a moment. The players who are playing EVE for their ISK generation are going to have a lot more of it than players who exclusively earn through Nova. With that being said, larger amounts of ISK in the market means that the relative value of said ISK goes down, which will cause prices to go up, this is simple inflation. So now prices are being dragged up be the inflated bank accounts of Nova players who use EVE, where the Nova exclusive players are locked in at an income rate of 10%. That means that Nova players will need to play 5-10 as many matches as Nova/Eve players just to keep up with the inflated prices from the free market. Now lets consider the already massive amounts of funds available in EVE right now. I personally have over 2 billion sitting on an EVE character and I am by no means rich in the EVE universe, far from it. So the moment that market opens up, you will see yet a further increase in the prices of items on the market due to rampant inflation. So now Nova exclusive players are generating 10% of what Nova/EVE players are making and prices are much higher than the ISK income of Nova exclusive players can reasonably maintain. So why would anyone want to play Nova to make money? So now if we take say player contracts into account. Yes, Nova players would be able to generate money off of EVE players but that doesnt solve the problem of effectively rendering the ISK gain from Nova exclusively obsolete because it is far smaller in the grand scheme of things, yet ISK gain in EVE is still very viable. You have effectively made ISK gain in Nova so inconsequentially small that it's wasted content. Imagine how that would be for someone brand new to the game who comes in, has to start off running cheap missions because they're new, and realizing that the money they earned from a match isn't enough to buy them the gear they need to run another match due to inflation and the low relative value of ISK payouts? That's going to be incredibly frustrating and turn off a lot of new players, as well as more casual players that rely on those types of matches and payouts to enjoy the game they want to (and there is nothing wrong with that kind of player) All very good points. If we were to try to make the market truly free and open, that would mean that mercs running PvE missions in Dust/Nova would have to be paid at the same general rate as pilots in EvE. I think that's fairly reasonable, if you consider payment to be based on risk/reward levels. Perhaps a merc weilding a rifle can be equated to a pilot of a starship, in terms of how much they do with a rifle compared with how much the pilot does with the aid of a ship. We should avoid trying to think of this in terms of what we've become used to with Dust. Nova will be a new game, and whatever monetary rewards are available will no doubt be completely different from those in Dust. For the record, the sort of thing you're talking about is a type of arbitrage, where the price of something varies from one place or time to another. It's actually used to good effect by traders in EvE, who buy goods in one region or system and sell them in another at a profit. Running missions in EvE to use the proceeds in Nova would be another form of the same thing. It would be simple enough to make the payment for Nova missions similar to that for time and level as those in EvE. That would effectively eliminate the major portion of such arbitrage activity. It should be noted that it's possible people could be encouraged to take contracts in Nova with higher reward for completing the contract. This would make Dust and EvE contracts equivalent to all intents and purposes. I don't see that there's any real problem with getting equivalence and free exchange between and within all the games of the New Eden universe.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1210	Posted - 2016.10.12 07:41:00 - [85] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: To be fair, we're on a forum for a game that doesn't exist anymore. I don't think an "Official" place exists for Nova at this time. All the more reason then, that people with information from any source outside of the fora should forward that information on within the fora. It should also be noted that the fora are being kept going for a reason, presumably to communicate information and keep alive interest. I still think the fora are the correct place to disseminate information, not somewhat less rigorous vehicles such as Twitter.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8665	Posted - 2016.10.12 08:10:00 - [86] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: To be fair, we're on a forum for a game that doesn't exist anymore. I don't think an "Official" place exists for Nova at this time. All the more reason then, that people with information from any source outside of the fora should forward that information on within the fora. It should also be noted that the fora are being kept going for a reason, presumably to communicate information and keep alive interest. I still think the fora are the correct place to disseminate information, not somewhat less rigorous vehicles such as Twitter. I try to but then I'm branded a fanboy and dismissed! Lol EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1210	Posted - 2016.10.12 11:25:00 - [87] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: To be fair, we're on a forum for a game that doesn't exist anymore. I don't think an "Official" place exists for Nova at this time. All the more reason then, that people with information from any source outside of the fora should forward that information on within the fora. It should also be noted that the fora are being kept going for a reason, presumably to communicate information and keep alive interest. I still think the fora are the correct place to disseminate information, not somewhat less rigorous vehicles such as Twitter. I try to but then I'm branded a fanboy and dismissed! Lol lol Not by me, Pokey! :)


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