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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.08.27 21:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
So, you're doing it wrong. How is that my problem?
Every time I shotgun a sentinel in the back, I fully expect to take damage from him. That's how common it is. The same goes for tanked Commandos and Assaults. You simply can't kill 'em fast enough.
You suggested a tweak to my proposed idea. I'm telling you specifically how and why I think your tweak wouldn't work. Take my feedback or leave it. Don't get all butthurt and defensive, and don't waste my time with edge-case scenarios.
CPM Sgt Kirk - On Community
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.27 21:40:00 -
[62] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:So, you're doing it wrong. How is that my problem?
Every time I shotgun a sentinel in the back, I fully expect to take damage from him. That's how common it is. The same goes for tanked Commandos and Assaults. You simply can't kill 'em fast enough.
You suggested a tweak to my proposed idea. I'm telling you specifically how and why I think your tweak wouldn't work. Take my feedback or leave it. Don't get all butthurt and defensive, and don't waste my time with edge-case scenarios.
Don't tell me I'm playing the fool because I don't do things your way. I don't really care what you think is "doing it wrong." The cal and minsent don't take shotgun shots well at all, and the galsent is hit or miss because of it's odd slot layout. The commando would have to be damn near bricked and assaults turning on you I'm going to chalk up to shoddy hit detection, something frequently reported in reference to the weapon line.
And bluntly Firing your weapon should flash you on the tacnet IMHO, but that's not on my list of suggestions I'm actually going to make.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.08.27 23:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:So, you're doing it wrong. How is that my problem?
Every time I shotgun a sentinel in the back, I fully expect to take damage from him. That's how common it is. The same goes for tanked Commandos and Assaults. You simply can't kill 'em fast enough.
You suggested a tweak to my proposed idea. I'm telling you specifically how and why I think your tweak wouldn't work. Take my feedback or leave it. Don't get all butthurt and defensive, and don't waste my time with edge-case scenarios.
Don't tell me I'm playing the fool because I don't do things your way. I don't really care what you think is "doing it wrong." The cal and minsent don't take shotgun shots well at all, and the galsent is hit or miss because of it's odd slot layout. The commando would have to be damn near bricked and assaults turning on you I'm going to chalk up to shoddy hit detection, something frequently reported in reference to the weapon line. And bluntly Firing your weapon should flash you on the tacnet IMHO, but that's not on my list of suggestions I'm actually going to make.
This thread isn't about what you run or how you run it. This thread is about EWAR interplay.
The fact of the matter is, the majority (if not vast majority) of Commandos, Assaults and Sentinels on the field spin-and-spray after being hit in the back with a shotgun. That's the point I was trying to make. It is especially true with Sentinels, and it isn't limited to any particular type or max-HP loadout. I've observed this thousands and thousands of times over. If for whatever reason you don't wish to take my word for it, you are more than welcome to grab a shotgun, hunt some fatties and see for yourself. It is the norm. Why it is that you're experience differs from the norm is interesting, but it is inconsequential as it relates to this discussion.
Breakin Stuff wrote:I am watching this thread to see how it progresses, and what the community cobbles together as acceptable mechanics. As I don't pay a lot of attention to EWAR in my day-to-day gameplay as I run sentinel and commando suits, I ask that people bear with me when I ask seemingly "stupid questions," whether out of ignorance, or because if I feel the need to quote or cite your contributions, I would like to insure that I am not misrepresenting the ideas here.
I'd assumed you were playing the fool, and that was wrong. I forgot about the above post. Apologies out of the way, I'd like to think that as a CPM you'd opine on from an informed position. I'm trying to help you get there. So quit being a combative arse and let me help you become less EWAR ignorant. 
CPM Sgt Kirk - On Community
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.27 23:49:00 -
[64] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:I admit that I forgot about the above post. I'd assumed you were playing the fool and that was wrong of me. Apologies out of the way, I'd like to think that as a CPM Member you'd opine from an informed position. I'm trying to help you get there. So quit being a combative arse and let me help you become less EWAR ignorant.
My official, relevant opine is that always wins/always loses binary equation needs to be killed with fire with something that is affected not only by fit but by action matters.
Besides, I'm more interested in relevant factors that might affect interplay than much else. Crouching would reduce scannable surface area, and thus might give a slight reduction. firing a high-energy weapon (like a magnetically accelerated ball of ambiplasma) could be used as justification for being a bit more visible. Being directly flagged by crosshairs (I agree, not just because you happen to feather a gunsight across someone for a fraction of a second. DIRECTLY attacking someone (falls under crosshair lingering on the target for more than a stray bullet impact, waving the crosshairs across the target wildly shouldn't count) would speed it up.
Light and visibility not so much, because the dropsuits auto-adjust to lighting, and the Mk.1 Eyeball should be relied on to differentiate a scout from a rock. Radar and such wouldn't be fooled by lighting conditions.
Environmental conditions could affect it. the toxic mood could artificially lower the average profile of each suit due to the amount of caustic crap floating in the air.
The act of firing a forge gun should probably just light up the firer on the radar, but that might also make it too easy to kill them quickly.
things that interact and make the battlefield more dynamic that might help pokey with numbers/be reasonably useful for dynamic interplay are my interest though.
The venom spitting arguments are what I do for fun. 
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.08.28 00:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
If you shoot, knife or punch someone in the back without killing them and then stay rooted in place so they can turn around 180 degrees and shoot you, you are the worst assassin ever and deserve not just to your position painted on tacnet but also deserve to have your innards painted across every other adjacent units' HUD.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
2
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Posted - 2015.08.28 04:31:00 -
[66] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:If you shoot, knife or punch someone in the back without killing them and then stay rooted in place so they can turn around 180 degrees and shoot you, you are the worst assassin ever and deserve not just to have your position painted on tacnet but also deserve to have your innards painted across every other adjacent units' HUD.
Really? Sigh.
SG a heavy in the back one day, any good heavy will be turned around and hitting you before you can finish them.
Knife will one hit kill most heavies if in a min scout with max skills but good luck getting in for the kill if they aren't hacking... Sure it can be done but not by the majority of players especially if they are with squad members.
As for punching your right on that one... With the bs melee mods a commando can one hit kill pretty much any suit... Thanks CCP.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.28 05:33:00 -
[67] - Quote
I would prefer targets to be scanned only be targeting with ads rather that simply hitting them. It feels like it makes more sense to be deliberately scoping out targets. Just hitting them seems a little too much. I don't know, I just don't like the idea.
On shotgunning people in the back:
It is possible to kill sentinels (less tanked ones) with a shotgun without taking damage. However, it's not always easy. Getting shot by the target turning around is quite common. Being killed by them in a one on one, when you've opened with a shotgun blast to the back, can also happen. Consistently hitting moving targets at such short range can be difficult, hence the uncertainty in outcome. Without interference, a shotgun scout with the drop on a sentinel will generally win, but will often take some damage.
Having said this, I believe weapon fire should significantly increase your profile. So firing a shotgun should flag your position to nearby targets anyway. It already does in a way, as people can hear it being fired.
Now, melee and nova knives should be low profile. This would be great as it would give an extra insentive to use knives over a shotgun to be stealthy, which makes sense to me. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.28 07:52:00 -
[68] - Quote
I am of the opinion that being able to set up a situation where there is no chance of survival/reprisal is bad. That kind of thing removes the value of skill/reflex entirely.
Binary scenarios are not interesting.
Sentinels always dying if you get behind them isn't interesting.
Scouts being instantly dead if you happen to see them isn't interesting. (No I don't actually believe scouts should auto-die when a 3-year old farts too close)
Scouts that can never be detected before they're in your back arc isn't interesting.
Having one combo suit and active scanner that no one can beat ever isn't interesting.
For every strength there needs to be a window to overcome that strength based upon skill.
That's how I look at this mental exercise.
If we can introduce something less binary and static, I'm all for jumping on it and squeezing it till the juice dries up.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.28 09:08:00 -
[69] - Quote
It isn't binary. Luck is involved to a degree, as is the case with most elements of most games, and I don't think it should be eliminated. But predominantly, stealth scout vs heavy / medium is a battle of skill and wit. A fact which people often miss.
The essential thing to remember is that players can see scouts coming, and can react to attacks by scouts.
Playing in a group, recognising where flank or rear attacks may occur and covering teamates, are all methods of fighting against scouts. This happens all the time.
When a scout attacks, often there will be the opportunity to defend your teammate, if not yourself.
Even if a scout succeeds in getting a kill players can often kill them in return and revive the victim.
The interplay between scouts attempting to attack, kill and escape, whilst the other team watches for them and covers teammates, is a very interesting and compelling dynamic which this game does very well.
Being able to hide from scans and kill targets extremely quickly does not spoil that interaction, it's crucial to it.
As for pure skill, reacting fast and accurately enough to defend against scouts takes skill. Likewise, apart from the skill involved with closing in on enemies unseen, the act of killing a target without giving them the chance to defend and then escaping if needed also takes skill. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.28 09:40:00 -
[70] - Quote
Nicely put valroth but I think we're deeply off-topic.
Shall we move back to the original topic?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
3
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Posted - 2015.08.28 10:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
Late comer so I'll just reply to the OP (in italics):
1. Generally speaking, how do you feel about scan falloff? In short that scans should be more effective at short range, and less effective at long range.
I think it's a good idea that was badly implemented. I like the idea of having a short, highly precise scan on most suits. It's balanced since it rarely reaches past 10m iirc, which in most situations like that your'e dead but you still have a slight chance. However, the falloff range needs to be much shorter and toward the end of the scan range. 20/75-80/100% of max range is more acceptable. The precision values are acceptable.
2. What do you feel are appropriate detection conditions. For example, should it simply be you are either currently scanned or not scanned, as we currently have? Or should there be more variation in detection conditions.
Per #3, I think mechanics where having a lower profile would benefit (i.e. chanced based scanning, scan duration, etc.) should be explored. While I like the idea of absolute values for scouts vs. logis (escalating to bringing out focused scanners and maxed damps, scouts having the advantage albeit gimping their fits), however virtually every other suit in the game can't compete with that arms war, so something should change.
3. Should scan conditions vary depending on variation between signature profile and scan precision? That is to say, once scanned, should the last effect vary depending on the difference in stats?
See above; it's worth exploring.
4. Should secondary actions such as running, sprinting, or firing a weapon affect signature profile?
Again, worth exploring, but if it's too technically time consuming, I'd just leave it out. Players of MAG will remember that there were three detection arrows on the HUD: a grey for sound (someone firing nearby), a yellow for incoming fire (someone shooting at you but missing), and a red for damage (someone shooting and hitting you). Something like this should be considered as well.
5. How do you feel about current Scout bonuses?
Admittedly, as a Cal scout main, I'm a bit salty about losing the precision bonus. I also feel that bonus is wasted on the Amarr scout since it can't achieve decent results. The effective scan range and precision of a Cal scout is comparable to a logi now, and considering how much a Cal scout has to sacrifice to excel at passive scanning (sp and fitting wise), it makes it ill suited for the task, imo. Aside from the dampening, I see little purpose to using any scout for EWAR. All in all, most scouts have moved away from an active EWAR role to a pseudo-assault role now.
6. Do you feel that passive scans should be constant scans are they are now? Or activate periodically?
Yes, provided they're restricted to the Minimap only. Active scans should be periodic and restricted to the HUD and overview map only.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.08.28 16:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Shall we move back to the original topic?
I'll take a crack at it!
Here's what Rattati left us with:
http://puu.sh/jNGQz/7e770ebd24.png
Here's what I'm thinking:
http://i.imgur.com/iQ4l1rN.png
Here's why:
#1 - Shared Passive Scans are trouble. If you click through December's (rather heated) Dev EWAR discussion, you'll find that pretty much everyone -- even those diametrically opposed to one another -- agreed that Shared Passives should be disabled. There are lots and lots of good reasons why. Off the top of my head, here are a handful of EWAR improvements which could be accomplished if we got rid of shared passives:
* Could alleviate the lopsided aspects of EWAR interplay brought about by 8x and 16x sharing
* Could make EWAR interplay less off / on and a more an active game of hide-and-seek
* Could make room in competitive play for recon scouts to participate in a balanced and meaningful manner
* Could ensure that no matter what is tweaked down the road, passive permascan is not resurrected
* Could make EWAR modules more meaningful to more unit types
This is just one example, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that a Range Extender buff was on the table ...
Range Extender Buff w/ Shared Passives:
Blobbing > Scouting.  Upgrade your blob by embedding in it an AM or CA Scout, who shares his now longer range, intense passives up to 16x. Detection conditions in competitive play are now very much analog and easy-to-anticipate. Be a heavily dampened GalScout and get in close undetected. Otherwise, assume detection anytime you're close to a blob. A good embedded Scout serves his squad best by surrounding himself with high-HP, hard-hitting squadmates, granting them his always-on ring of omniscience.. Beyond the occasional bullet dodging, player skill and judgment are of little-to-no consequence to the rather boring role of the embedded Scout.
Range Extender Buff w/out Shared Passives:
Scouting > Blobbing.  A good EWAR AM/CA Scout orbits his squadmates, sniffs out potential infiltrators, and all-the-while relays intel back to his squad via active scanning or "scoping" incoming threats. He intercepts the threats he thinks he can handle; he actively "scouts" the rest. This Scout is served well by modules which augment his strong native scans; provided he plays smart, these potentially permit him better survivability than even HP modules. This Scout is a scout, and player skill and judgment play a significant part in how well he performs his role.
CPM Sgt Kirk - On Community
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.08.28 23:36:00 -
[73] - Quote
Without reigniting a rehashing or sideways discourse considered "off-topic", at the end of the day there should be no accomodation for poor execution of gameplay inherently built into any game mechanics, whether they be binary or otherwise.
If you stealth your way into execution kill positioning and don't headshot your target from behind, you should anticipate they may live and turn to fire on you. And there should be no protection from detection for you under those conditions, the stealth capital you had you've spent getting there and blown by not executing your kill. No, its not easy and under many circumstances its nigh impossible-and really imo should be. Thats a big part of what makes a successful combatzone assassination so rewarding and a testament of skill.
Cloaked/damped zerg runs through combat areas shotgunning people in the back is drive-by shooting, and while yes a skilled play on timing and opportunity is not the same as an assassination play.
Either way, if poorly executed, neither should be rewarded by EWAR mechanics that compensate for the failure.
Ideal EWAR mechanics, in play example imo:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L7Z4IQi3I-M
For the unfamiliar, this is the TeamSneaking gamemode from the online component for Metal Gear Solid 4, MGO2. Mechanically, this isn't much different than what we have in DUST. The match is lost by the sneakers by virtue more than anything else because none of them apparently equipped the "damps" skill, SOP Stealth while oone of the hunters was equipped with the top level scan skill ScanEX. He's the guy by the crate who seems to inject the ko'd opponent and make him and the rest of his team glow and easy prey for the hunting group.
Bear in mind MGO had a broad range of skilling/equip possibilities and this match could have been very different for a million reasons. But as an example of an awesome EWAR interplay system it will suffice.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.30 12:13:00 -
[74] - Quote
Right now what are the biggest failure points of the scanning side, and what are the biggest failure points of the dampening side?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.30 14:31:00 -
[75] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Right now what are the biggest failure points of the scanning side, and what are the biggest failure points of the dampening side?
I think it's reasonably balanced to be honest. It's been a lot worse, and a lot of work went into getting to where we are.
Biggest failure on the scanning side:
Range amps are rather poor, particularly at low tiers. Though buffing them has the potential to make scanning OP, as it's effective with just the use of precision mods.
Biggest failure on the dampening side:
Having to fit three complex damps on an assault, or two on a Min/Am scout, just to hide from Gallente logi's long range, wide angle active scans, seems a bit much. Though, if the bonus to precision was swapped and assaults could hide with two damps, would there be enough value in a scout suit? Other than the cloak you could just use a dampened assault.
More depth, such as walking/stopping to reduce profile, or weapons fire that increases profile would be great. Other changes have the potential to upset balance. |
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
400
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Posted - 2015.08.30 20:51:00 -
[76] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Right now what are the biggest failure points of the scanning side, and what are the biggest failure points of the dampening side?
Biggest failure on both sides: All or Nothing for passives...there is little point in fitting just one damp or just one precision enhancer...(let alone fitting even one range amp)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.08.30 21:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Right now what are the biggest failure points of the scanning side, and what are the biggest failure points of the dampening side?
Shared scans for both.
With regards to dampening, it is how much you have to sacrifice in order to beat precision. Largely because ties go to the scanner, which is backwards in my opinion, and because it takes a greater number of dampeners in relation to the number of precision mods.
With regards to scanning, there seems to be a delay in information. As a result, someone like me knifing may show up after the kill instead of in real time. At this point that is what keeps us still relevant, but I don't think we should balance around broken mechanisms. I would like to see it fixed, then decide what to do from that point.
Also with scanning, reduced total range is a problem. I think it would be less so if we could find a way to make range amps effective again, but with shared scans it makes it a pain to fix. Its damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.08.31 02:48:00 -
[78] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Right now what are the biggest failure points of the scanning side, and what are the biggest failure points of the dampening side?
Largely agree with Varoth's assessment above.
On Range Amps, I'd add that the apparent quick fix (simply buff them) would create more problems than it'd solve. The reasons why this module was nerfed in the first place very much remain in effect today. In fact, more so, now that competitive squads can share passives among even more units than before.
Biggest Failures on the Scanning Side?
#1 - Hands down, the GalLogi's Active Scans (too potent and too easily spammed)
#2 - Shared Passives (too potent, especially when shared 8x - 16x)
#3 - Passive Scan Inner Ring Intensity (too potent at zero-to-minimal investment)
Biggest Failures on the Dampening Side?
The fact that in the vast majority of cases, the effect of Damps are completed negated by #1 through #3 above. |
Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.08.31 20:27:00 -
[79] - Quote
The way active scanners work needs some tweaking, but I don't see why it's a bad thing for a suit not designed to be sneaky (assaults) can be found by a suit designed to find sneaky suits (GalLogi). Why should assaults try to be sneaky at all? That isn't their job. That's the job of the scout suit, and they do that job quite well. Wanting assaults to be sneaky is like wanting scouts to be tanky.
The problem with active scanners is they do not follow any sort of balanced rules. The longest range scans have the widest angle, which is a problem. My idea (and Adipem's) makes scanners actually active and implements some balanced rules for the variants to follow, but I see no reason for an assault to want to fit dampeners anymore than I would have a scout want to fit plates: you're going against the fundamental design of the suit.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.31 21:56:00 -
[80] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:The way active scanners work needs some tweaking, but I don't see why it's a bad thing for a suit not designed to be sneaky (assaults) can be found by a suit designed to find sneaky suits (GalLogi). Why should assaults try to be sneaky at all? That isn't their job. That's the job of the scout suit, and they do that job quite well. Wanting assaults to be sneaky is like wanting scouts to be tanky.
The problem with active scanners is they do not follow any sort of balanced rules. The longest range scans have the widest angle, which is a problem. My idea (and Adipem's) makes scanners actually active and implements some balanced rules for the variants to follow, but I see no reason for an assault to want to fit dampeners anymore than I would have a scout want to fit plates: you're going against the fundamental design of the suit.
The point is it should be a fitting option. You can fit hp mods on a scout and be effective. Why can't you fit profile dampeners on an assault? You can, but is it worth it? Most people won't, but variety is what makes the game interesting.
And the Gallente logi isn't designed to find sneaky suits, it's designed to find all suits. Sneaky suits are designed to hide from them. Basically, scouts are for hiding from scanners. Focussed scanners are for finding scouts. Profile dampeners are designed to hide you from scans.
I'm just saying that perhaps Gallente logis should be adjusted so it's a little easier for mediums to make use of profile dampeners, if they wish, and give scouts a bit more room for fitting options other than profile dampeners. It would allow for more interesting EWAR dynamics and fitting options for all suits. Also, for people who don't play scout and complain about permascan, they could more easily fit dampeners, instead of feeling they have to go scout or be scanned.
So for example, you could change the logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction.
Buff focussed scanner precision from 20 to 15db, but reduce it's range to 50m.
Now you've got better distinction between long range, wide angle scans that can feasibly be hidden from (even by sentinels if they so wish), and short range, longer cooldown, but extremely powerful focussed scans.
Just a thought. Improving active scanner mechanics is another issue that can go with this. |
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.08.31 22:05:00 -
[81] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... but I see no reason for an assault to want to fit dampeners anymore than I would have a scout want to fit plates: you're going against the fundamental design of the suit.
To be fair, I personally see no problem with there being alternative loadouts worth running beyond the "recommended". Options give players an opportunity to be creative when adapting to different environments and while adopting new tactics and strategies. Loadout variety -- in my opinion -- is a feature which sets Dust apart from other shooters. I believe there should be more than one "right way to do it", and I believe that "fundamental design" (if there is such a thing) should encourage players to thoroughly explore their options rather than only reward them when they color in between the lines.
In the present environment, for instance, and assuming GalLogi scans were slightly less obnoxious ...
Assume Profile Dampeners were tweaked such that they now afford their user a 30% reduction to Duration Scanned. All of sudden, these previously useless "scout modules" very well might be of tactical benefit to Assaults and worth the trading out of a plate or two.
Spitballing, of course. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.31 22:26:00 -
[82] - Quote
Just to add:
If you think of things from a new player's perspective I think we'll have a better idea of game design that makes sense.
So newish player A goes into a match in his medium suit. Sees the "you have been scanned" message a lot, and notices the enemy always seems to know where he is. He's someone that likes to flank rather than go in guns blazing, so decides to try to do something about this. He finds profile dampeners and scout suits. These don't seem to work however. He then goes to the forums and discovers you need max dampening skills, a scout suit and 1/3 of your module slots filled with dampeners, or one guy on the enemy team is likely to paint your position on the map for most of the game. He will probably just respec to assault and hp mods.
Newbie B however, skills up to level 3 active scanning, and happily scans most of the enemy team all day long, looking enviously at the rep logi racking up the warpoints. Rep logi gets stabbed. Player B thinks "oh a scout, I guess he will have snuck in under my radar", shoots scout with yes before he escapes, decides whether to revive the rep logi or not (so he can't steal all the end of match isk).
Perhaps the situation could be improved a little. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.08.31 22:28:00 -
[83] - Quote
:: clapping ::  |
Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.08.31 23:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
The point is it should be a fitting option. You can fit hp mods on a scout and be effective. Why can't you fit profile dampeners on an assault? You can, but is it worth it? Most people won't, but variety is what makes the game interesting.
And the Gallente logi isn't designed to find sneaky suits, it's designed to find all suits. Sneaky suits are designed to hide from them. Basically, scouts are for hiding from scanners. Focussed scanners are for finding scouts. Profile dampeners are designed to hide you from scans.
I'm just saying that perhaps Gallente logis should be adjusted so it's a little easier for mediums to make use of profile dampeners, if they wish, and give scouts a bit more room for fitting options other than profile dampeners. It would allow for more interesting EWAR dynamics and fitting options for all suits. Also, for people who don't play scout and complain about permascan, they could more easily fit dampeners, instead of feeling they have to go scout or be scanned.
So for example, you could change the logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction.
Buff focussed scanner precision from 20 to 15db, but reduce it's range to 50m.
Now you've got better distinction between long range, wide angle scans that can feasibly be hidden from (even by sentinels if they so wish), and short range, longer cooldown, but extremely powerful focussed scans.
Just a thought. Improving active scanner mechanics is another issue that can go with this.
You can, but there's my concern: assuming everything equal (max skills) A GalSout/CalScout with 1 complex damp can evade all scanners, period, save for proto duvolle scans with level 5 GalLogi. That's why we had such a huge problem with scouts back in 1.8; alongside the cloak, a scout could easily have assault levels of health while being invisible to all scans. Having 700hp and undetectable was considered OP. How is it any different if the suit is a damped assault as opposed to a tanked scout?
It's about picking the right tool for the right job. You can be an assault with enough hp to survive a direct firefight, but you can easily be found. You can be a scout who can get under those scans, but you won't have the hp to go toe-to-toe with another suit. Wanting both is having your cake and eating it too; you must pick one or the other. Wanting an assault to be able to damp is wanting a hammer to be just as good at inserting screws as it is at putting in nails instead of having a tool specialized for inserting nails (the hammer) and a tool specialized at inserting screws (the screwdriver).
But I do agree we need to tweak active scanner mechanics; the limitations they have are too easily bypassed, and the CreoDron Flux has both the biggest angle and the longest range, which is having your cake and eating it too. But as far as wanting Assaults to damp, it's like hammering in screws. Sure you can do it and it will work somewhat, but there are tools better suited to the task.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.08.31 23:09:00 -
[85] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
The point is it should be a fitting option. You can fit hp mods on a scout and be effective. Why can't you fit profile dampeners on an assault? You can, but is it worth it? Most people won't, but variety is what makes the game interesting.
And the Gallente logi isn't designed to find sneaky suits, it's designed to find all suits. Sneaky suits are designed to hide from them. Basically, scouts are for hiding from scanners. Focussed scanners are for finding scouts. Profile dampeners are designed to hide you from scans.
I'm just saying that perhaps Gallente logis should be adjusted so it's a little easier for mediums to make use of profile dampeners, if they wish, and give scouts a bit more room for fitting options other than profile dampeners. It would allow for more interesting EWAR dynamics and fitting options for all suits. Also, for people who don't play scout and complain about permascan, they could more easily fit dampeners, instead of feeling they have to go scout or be scanned.
So for example, you could change the logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction.
Buff focussed scanner precision from 20 to 15db, but reduce it's range to 50m.
Now you've got better distinction between long range, wide angle scans that can feasibly be hidden from (even by sentinels if they so wish), and short range, longer cooldown, but extremely powerful focussed scans.
Just a thought. Improving active scanner mechanics is another issue that can go with this.
You can, but there's my concern: assuming everything equal (max skills) A GalSout/CalScout with 1 complex damp can evade all scanners, period, save for proto duvolle scans with level 5 GalLogi. That's why we had such a huge problem with scouts back in 1.8; alongside the cloak, a scout could easily have assault levels of health while being invisible to all scans. Having 700hp and undetectable was considered OP. How is it any different if the suit is a damped assault as opposed to a tanked scout?
The underlined portion above is an oversimplification of a complex problem. Scouts and Cloak were nerfed in a half dozen (or better) different ways, Assaults were buffed, and passive scans were overhauled. That's what fixed the Scout problem. The GalLogi's Scans had very little if anything to do with the Scout problem or the fixing of the Scout problem. |
Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 23:36:00 -
[86] - Quote
Would be great if your profile changed depending on your actions IE:
Examples, using a base scan profile of 30
Holding Still: -5% 30db>28db
Crouching: -5%
Holding still + crouching: -10% 30db>27db
Moving slowly: 0% (No change)
Running: +5% 30db>32db
Sprinting: +10% 30db>33db
Firing sidearm: +5%
Firing Light weapon: +10%
Firing heavy weapon: +25% 30db>38db
Using a scanner: +15% 30db>35db (Scanning gives off a large signature, revealing the scanner)
Scan precision should be -10% directly behind you, allowing players to sneak up on each other.
Being behind a wall or terrain: (line of sight penalty): -5%
Combining this with the system which has already been discussed, where instead of a simple PASS/FAIL, you can be partially detected, where partially scanned enemies give off smaller signatures, for a shorter time period
Real CPM Platform
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.31 23:41:00 -
[87] - Quote
In response to Alena:
Perhaps dampened assaults would be OP. Though I suspect not.
Since 1.8, scouts have had nerfs to cloak duration, (cloak regen?), cloak dampening, bonuses and profile.
The ability to scan whilst cloaked has been effectively removed.
Scout passive scans have been significantly nerfed. Without precision mods the range has been effectively halfed. Direction indicators have also been removed.
Significant decloak delay was introduced.
Most suits can now easily scan scouts with their inner scan rings (albite at short range).
Armour plates have had their strafe speed penalty significantly increased and their fitting cost increased, primarily to prevent scouts from effectively stacking them to massively buff their small base hp.
Assaults have had their hp massively buffed. Their slot count and fitting increased. Their passive scanning buffed. Their profile buffed. Their speed was nerfed by 1%.
The current balance position we have now between scouts and assaults is a result of all these changes. The fact that scouts are more easily scanned now is a relatively minor factor compared to all these other changes.
I doubt that reducing the required number of dampeners for a suit to hide from a non-focussed scan by 1, would give us OP stealth suits like the 1.8 Gallente scout, considering all the other changes that have been made since then.
Edit: Adipem put this better than me. See above. |
Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 23:47:00 -
[88] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
The point is it should be a fitting option. You can fit hp mods on a scout and be effective. Why can't you fit profile dampeners on an assault? You can, but is it worth it? Most people won't, but variety is what makes the game interesting.
And the Gallente logi isn't designed to find sneaky suits, it's designed to find all suits. Sneaky suits are designed to hide from them. Basically, scouts are for hiding from scanners. Focussed scanners are for finding scouts. Profile dampeners are designed to hide you from scans.
I'm just saying that perhaps Gallente logis should be adjusted so it's a little easier for mediums to make use of profile dampeners, if they wish, and give scouts a bit more room for fitting options other than profile dampeners. It would allow for more interesting EWAR dynamics and fitting options for all suits. Also, for people who don't play scout and complain about permascan, they could more easily fit dampeners, instead of feeling they have to go scout or be scanned.
So for example, you could change the logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction.
Buff focussed scanner precision from 20 to 15db, but reduce it's range to 50m.
Now you've got better distinction between long range, wide angle scans that can feasibly be hidden from (even by sentinels if they so wish), and short range, longer cooldown, but extremely powerful focussed scans.
Just a thought. Improving active scanner mechanics is another issue that can go with this.
You can, but there's my concern: assuming everything equal (max skills) A GalSout/CalScout with 1 complex damp can evade all scanners, period, save for proto duvolle scans with level 5 GalLogi. That's why we had such a huge problem with scouts back in 1.8; alongside the cloak, a scout could easily have assault levels of health while being invisible to all scans. Having 700hp and undetectable was considered OP. How is it any different if the suit is a damped assault as opposed to a tanked scout? With respect, I believe the underlined portion above to be an oversimplification of a complex problem. Scouts and Cloak were nerfed in a half dozen (or better) different ways, their racial bonuses were revised, Assaults were buffed, and passive scans were overhauled. That's what fixed the Scout problem. The GalLogi's Scans had very little if anything to do with the Scout problem or the fixing of the Scout problem. If the GalLogi were removed from play today, I do not expect we'd see a repeat of Uprising 1.8. Rather, I'd expect we'd see better mix of MN/AM Scouts in play and an influx of dampened Assaults. Would dampened Assaults out-scout the Scout? It is possible, but I personally don't think so thanks to the Speed/HP Curve.
That is something to think about. I think another part of the problem is the power curve between scanners and dampening. Ideally, dampening should beat scanning, but it should be neck-and-neck the entire way. So a level 3 GalScout with enhanced dampeners should beat a level 3 GalLogi with enhanced scanners... But just barely.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 00:04:00 -
[89] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
The point is it should be a fitting option. You can fit hp mods on a scout and be effective. Why can't you fit profile dampeners on an assault? You can, but is it worth it? Most people won't, but variety is what makes the game interesting.
And the Gallente logi isn't designed to find sneaky suits, it's designed to find all suits. Sneaky suits are designed to hide from them. Basically, scouts are for hiding from scanners. Focussed scanners are for finding scouts. Profile dampeners are designed to hide you from scans.
I'm just saying that perhaps Gallente logis should be adjusted so it's a little easier for mediums to make use of profile dampeners, if they wish, and give scouts a bit more room for fitting options other than profile dampeners. It would allow for more interesting EWAR dynamics and fitting options for all suits. Also, for people who don't play scout and complain about permascan, they could more easily fit dampeners, instead of feeling they have to go scout or be scanned.
So for example, you could change the logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction.
Buff focussed scanner precision from 20 to 15db, but reduce it's range to 50m.
Now you've got better distinction between long range, wide angle scans that can feasibly be hidden from (even by sentinels if they so wish), and short range, longer cooldown, but extremely powerful focussed scans.
Just a thought. Improving active scanner mechanics is another issue that can go with this.
You can, but there's my concern: assuming everything equal (max skills) A GalSout/CalScout with 1 complex damp can evade all scanners, period, save for proto duvolle scans with level 5 GalLogi. That's why we had such a huge problem with scouts back in 1.8; alongside the cloak, a scout could easily have assault levels of health while being invisible to all scans. Having 700hp and undetectable was considered OP. How is it any different if the suit is a damped assault as opposed to a tanked scout? With respect, I believe the underlined portion above to be an oversimplification of a complex problem. Scouts and Cloak were nerfed in a half dozen (or better) different ways, their racial bonuses were revised, Assaults were buffed, and passive scans were overhauled. That's what fixed the Scout problem. The GalLogi's Scans had very little if anything to do with the Scout problem or the fixing of the Scout problem. If the GalLogi were removed from play today, I do not expect we'd see a repeat of Uprising 1.8. Rather, I'd expect we'd see better mix of MN/AM Scouts in play and an influx of dampened Assaults. Would dampened Assaults out-scout the Scout? It is possible, but I personally don't think so thanks to the Speed/HP Curve. That is something to think about. I think another part of the problem is the power curve between scanners and dampening. Ideally, dampening should beat scanning, but it should be neck-and-neck the entire way. So a level 3 GalScout with enhanced dampeners should beat a level 3 GalLogi with enhanced scanners... But just barely.
With scouts and passive scans as they are today and active scan results being shared 16 ways, I do not see the need for active scans and scout scan profiles to escalate neck-and-neck. Should they, there will remain no point to running damps on Assaults. I believe it's been said before, "Active Scans are not the counter to Scouts, Scouts are the counter to Active Scans." |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 00:06:00 -
[90] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:
That is something to think about. I think another part of the problem is the power curve between scanners and dampening. Ideally, dampening should beat scanning, but it should be neck-and-neck the entire way. So a level 3 GalScout with enhanced dampeners should beat a level 3 GalLogi with enhanced scanners... But just barely.
Scanners are for scanning mediums and heavies, not lights.
Focussed scanners are for scanning lights.
Unfortunately we don't have basic or advanced focussed scanners, which is something that I think should be considered. So we'll have to look at proto level.
To dampen below a Gallente logi with a focussed scanner, a Galente scout needs 3 complex profile dampeners. It is impossible for the other three scouts without an active proto cloak.
I don't suggest changing this, as it is the main function of the equipment. I do however think the range should be reduced (50m), particularly if the cooldown (on Gal logis) and precision (on other suits) were buffed as per my earlier suggestions. |
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