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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.08.27 16:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
I made a thread about active scanners here complete with spreadsheet. Basic idea is to make them active and work similar to a cloak.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.08.27 18:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:I made a thread about active scanners here complete with spreadsheet. Basic idea is to make them active and work similar to a cloak. Reads almost exactly like what I wrote up the other day: Active Scans: Beam Scanning vs Snapshot ScanningDidn't realize I was repeating your idea quite nearly verbatim. 
Brilliant minds think alike! 
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 20:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
The way active scanners work needs some tweaking, but I don't see why it's a bad thing for a suit not designed to be sneaky (assaults) can be found by a suit designed to find sneaky suits (GalLogi). Why should assaults try to be sneaky at all? That isn't their job. That's the job of the scout suit, and they do that job quite well. Wanting assaults to be sneaky is like wanting scouts to be tanky.
The problem with active scanners is they do not follow any sort of balanced rules. The longest range scans have the widest angle, which is a problem. My idea (and Adipem's) makes scanners actually active and implements some balanced rules for the variants to follow, but I see no reason for an assault to want to fit dampeners anymore than I would have a scout want to fit plates: you're going against the fundamental design of the suit.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 23:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
The point is it should be a fitting option. You can fit hp mods on a scout and be effective. Why can't you fit profile dampeners on an assault? You can, but is it worth it? Most people won't, but variety is what makes the game interesting.
And the Gallente logi isn't designed to find sneaky suits, it's designed to find all suits. Sneaky suits are designed to hide from them. Basically, scouts are for hiding from scanners. Focussed scanners are for finding scouts. Profile dampeners are designed to hide you from scans.
I'm just saying that perhaps Gallente logis should be adjusted so it's a little easier for mediums to make use of profile dampeners, if they wish, and give scouts a bit more room for fitting options other than profile dampeners. It would allow for more interesting EWAR dynamics and fitting options for all suits. Also, for people who don't play scout and complain about permascan, they could more easily fit dampeners, instead of feeling they have to go scout or be scanned.
So for example, you could change the logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction.
Buff focussed scanner precision from 20 to 15db, but reduce it's range to 50m.
Now you've got better distinction between long range, wide angle scans that can feasibly be hidden from (even by sentinels if they so wish), and short range, longer cooldown, but extremely powerful focussed scans.
Just a thought. Improving active scanner mechanics is another issue that can go with this.
You can, but there's my concern: assuming everything equal (max skills) A GalSout/CalScout with 1 complex damp can evade all scanners, period, save for proto duvolle scans with level 5 GalLogi. That's why we had such a huge problem with scouts back in 1.8; alongside the cloak, a scout could easily have assault levels of health while being invisible to all scans. Having 700hp and undetectable was considered OP. How is it any different if the suit is a damped assault as opposed to a tanked scout?
It's about picking the right tool for the right job. You can be an assault with enough hp to survive a direct firefight, but you can easily be found. You can be a scout who can get under those scans, but you won't have the hp to go toe-to-toe with another suit. Wanting both is having your cake and eating it too; you must pick one or the other. Wanting an assault to be able to damp is wanting a hammer to be just as good at inserting screws as it is at putting in nails instead of having a tool specialized for inserting nails (the hammer) and a tool specialized at inserting screws (the screwdriver).
But I do agree we need to tweak active scanner mechanics; the limitations they have are too easily bypassed, and the CreoDron Flux has both the biggest angle and the longest range, which is having your cake and eating it too. But as far as wanting Assaults to damp, it's like hammering in screws. Sure you can do it and it will work somewhat, but there are tools better suited to the task.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 23:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
The point is it should be a fitting option. You can fit hp mods on a scout and be effective. Why can't you fit profile dampeners on an assault? You can, but is it worth it? Most people won't, but variety is what makes the game interesting.
And the Gallente logi isn't designed to find sneaky suits, it's designed to find all suits. Sneaky suits are designed to hide from them. Basically, scouts are for hiding from scanners. Focussed scanners are for finding scouts. Profile dampeners are designed to hide you from scans.
I'm just saying that perhaps Gallente logis should be adjusted so it's a little easier for mediums to make use of profile dampeners, if they wish, and give scouts a bit more room for fitting options other than profile dampeners. It would allow for more interesting EWAR dynamics and fitting options for all suits. Also, for people who don't play scout and complain about permascan, they could more easily fit dampeners, instead of feeling they have to go scout or be scanned.
So for example, you could change the logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction.
Buff focussed scanner precision from 20 to 15db, but reduce it's range to 50m.
Now you've got better distinction between long range, wide angle scans that can feasibly be hidden from (even by sentinels if they so wish), and short range, longer cooldown, but extremely powerful focussed scans.
Just a thought. Improving active scanner mechanics is another issue that can go with this.
You can, but there's my concern: assuming everything equal (max skills) A GalSout/CalScout with 1 complex damp can evade all scanners, period, save for proto duvolle scans with level 5 GalLogi. That's why we had such a huge problem with scouts back in 1.8; alongside the cloak, a scout could easily have assault levels of health while being invisible to all scans. Having 700hp and undetectable was considered OP. How is it any different if the suit is a damped assault as opposed to a tanked scout? With respect, I believe the underlined portion above to be an oversimplification of a complex problem. Scouts and Cloak were nerfed in a half dozen (or better) different ways, their racial bonuses were revised, Assaults were buffed, and passive scans were overhauled. That's what fixed the Scout problem. The GalLogi's Scans had very little if anything to do with the Scout problem or the fixing of the Scout problem. If the GalLogi were removed from play today, I do not expect we'd see a repeat of Uprising 1.8. Rather, I'd expect we'd see better mix of MN/AM Scouts in play and an influx of dampened Assaults. Would dampened Assaults out-scout the Scout? It is possible, but I personally don't think so thanks to the Speed/HP Curve.
That is something to think about. I think another part of the problem is the power curve between scanners and dampening. Ideally, dampening should beat scanning, but it should be neck-and-neck the entire way. So a level 3 GalScout with enhanced dampeners should beat a level 3 GalLogi with enhanced scanners... But just barely.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 00:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:
That is something to think about. I think another part of the problem is the power curve between scanners and dampening. Ideally, dampening should beat scanning, but it should be neck-and-neck the entire way. So a level 3 GalScout with enhanced dampeners should beat a level 3 GalLogi with enhanced scanners... But just barely.
Scanners are for scanning mediums and heavies, not lights. Focussed scanners are for scanning lights. Unfortunately we don't have basic or advanced focussed scanners, which is something that I think should be considered. So we'll have to look at proto level. To dampen below a Gallente logi with a focussed scanner, a Galente scout needs 3 complex profile dampeners. It is impossible for the other three scouts without an active proto cloak. I don't suggest changing this, as it is the main function of the equipment. I do however think the range should be reduced (50m), particularly if the cooldown (on Gal logis) and precision (on other suits) were buffed as per my earlier suggestions.
That is a good point. I'll have to ponder on it for a bit.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 12:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
One big problem with balancing ewar (passive at least) is the binary nature of the scans. Depending on the numbers, you either always show up, or you never do. This is why passive scans have been at the extremes of "I see everyone" to "I see no one". The 3 scan rings are a band-aid at best. What would really make balance easier is if we could have actions give modifiers to scan profile. Crouch walking lowers the profile, while shooting increases it. IT would make for a more dynamic system: I can't see the scout unless he begins sprinting and increases his profile, and a Min/AmScout have a chance of beating scans if they play tactically and crouch-walk as opposed to run.
I think Rattati said this can't happen, but honestly EWAR will always be OP or UP until we have more ways to find/beat the scans rather than only 2 numbers interacting.
As far as range extenders, giving them a flat number makes them useful on all suits, but could easily have the AmScout becoming the new CalScout of old.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 14:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Honestly I think the calscout and amscout should switch bonuses. It makes sense lore wise: Cal would want to be able to find the sneaky GalScouts and the AmScout would want to see the fast MinScout coming from farther away, giving them more time to react.
Plus it requires them to sacrifice their main tank in order to capitalize on their bonus.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 18:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Honestly I think the calscout and amscout should switch bonuses. It makes sense lore wise: Cal would want to be able to find the sneaky GalScouts and the AmScout would want to see the fast MinScout coming from farther away, giving them more time to react.
Plus it requires them to sacrifice their main tank in order to capitalize on their bonus. Agreed in concept. Though with today's active scans as they are, losing the damp bonus would require CalScout to commit 2 of 2 low slots to dampeners to remain off-radar. It can't hunt if it's permascanned. Wouldn't lose the damp bonus. Alena was suggesting swapping the range and precision bonuses out. Not a total bonus swap.
This. Only switch the range and precision bonuses. Sorry that wasn't clear.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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