DUST Search - Pokey's Workshop

Breakin Stuff wrote:

CeeJ Mantis wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

I am watching this thread to see how it progresses, and what the community cobbles together as acceptable mechanics. As I don't pay a lot of attention to EWAR in my day-to-day gameplay as I run sentinel and commando suits, I ask that people bear with me when I ask seemingly "stupid questions," whether out of ignorance, or because if I feel the need to quote or cite your contributions, I would like to insure that I am not misrepresenting the ideas here.

As a sentinel and commando, I run 1 precision amp. If you do the ewar math, then you get very interesting results. Helps a lot with HMG v other heavies tobsee them first, and further augments my ability to be a plc marksman. A single one (needs to be complex on a commando) is all you need. Give it a try.

I have. I was never able to extend the detection circle past the center ring.

Speaking of which: making the full scan radius of the dropsuit fill the actual radar HUD would be freaking amazing. Doesn't do any good to see a red dot appear superimposed on the little icon representing you. Even in a fatsuit that usually means you're dead.


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Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.23 13:35:00 - [1] - Quote Ideal EWAR: Passive scans: Similar passive scan ranges to what we have now, with precision varying linearly with distance. Movement should affect profile (I like Cat Merc's idea). By default you should pick up a walking dropsuit one tier heavier than you at middle range (about 10-15m). There is no need for range amps. Weapons should have a db profile for firing, depending on weapon, which dampeners should reduce. It should be easier to dampen below very short range passive scans. Passive scans should be shared with fire teams only. Larger groups of mercs should be subdivided. Armour should increase db profile. Spotting: Targets in ads crosshairs should be broadcast to your fire team. Active scanning: This should be based on electronic signature rather than db (sound). This should work much like the current profiles, however should be unaffected by movement. Shields should increase signature. Active scanning should only light up enemies when active. Perhaps fire a wave out over an arc, lighting up enemies as it passes over them. Reduce focussed scanner range to 50m. With the exception on focussed scanners, it should be easier to hide from them with dampeners. For example, an assault suit with two dampeners and no shield mods should be able to avoid non-focussed scans. Perhaps the Gallente logi bonus should be concentrated on cooldown reduction. Scouts without shields should have a low enough signature to avoid active scans without damps. Damps would be needed to hide shield module sigs and to hide from passive scans. Generally one damp should do, two for extreme stealth. Simple modifications to existing EWAR: Active scanner scan duration -> 1 second. Focussed scanner range -> 50m Range amplifiers -> +45% range at complex -20% precision
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.23 20:31:00 - [2] - Quote What about reducing the scan duration of all active scans to 1 second? This way they give you intel on where enemies are coming from, but doesn't allow you to use their exact position to aid you in combat. More of a strategic advantage rather than a combat advantage. I suggest also reducing the focussed scanner's range to 50m, as it's short duration will no longer be a drawback. What do you think? Edit: Just thought of an issue. It would be difficult to get intel assist wps. Perhaps have a system similar to transport assists, where you get wps if an enemy dies within say, 15 seconds of being scanned.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.26 14:28:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CeeJ Mantis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I am watching this thread to see how it progresses, and what the community cobbles together as acceptable mechanics. As I don't pay a lot of attention to EWAR in my day-to-day gameplay as I run sentinel and commando suits, I ask that people bear with me when I ask seemingly "stupid questions," whether out of ignorance, or because if I feel the need to quote or cite your contributions, I would like to insure that I am not misrepresenting the ideas here. As a sentinel and commando, I run 1 precision amp. If you do the ewar math, then you get very interesting results. Helps a lot with HMG v other heavies tobsee them first, and further augments my ability to be a plc marksman. A single one (needs to be complex on a commando) is all you need. Give it a try. I have. I was never able to extend the detection circle past the center ring. Speaking of which: making the full scan radius of the dropsuit fill the actual radar HUD would be freaking amazing. Doesn't do any good to see a red dot appear superimposed on the little icon representing you. Even in a fatsuit that usually means you're dead. The way is works at the moment, the radar is useful to see the positions of targets further away, mainly scanned by active scanners or squad passives. For targets scanned by your own passives we have the chevrons on the HUD, which are more useful for enemies who are very close, like round a corner. I find this system works pretty well.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.28 05:33:00 - [4] - Quote I would prefer targets to be scanned only be targeting with ads rather that simply hitting them. It feels like it makes more sense to be deliberately scoping out targets. Just hitting them seems a little too much. I don't know, I just don't like the idea. On shotgunning people in the back: It is possible to kill sentinels (less tanked ones) with a shotgun without taking damage. However, it's not always easy. Getting shot by the target turning around is quite common. Being killed by them in a one on one, when you've opened with a shotgun blast to the back, can also happen. Consistently hitting moving targets at such short range can be difficult, hence the uncertainty in outcome. Without interference, a shotgun scout with the drop on a sentinel will generally win, but will often take some damage. Having said this, I believe weapon fire should significantly increase your profile. So firing a shotgun should flag your position to nearby targets anyway. It already does in a way, as people can hear it being fired. Now, melee and nova knives should be low profile. This would be great as it would give an extra insentive to use knives over a shotgun to be stealthy, which makes sense to me.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.28 09:08:00 - [5] - Quote It isn't binary. Luck is involved to a degree, as is the case with most elements of most games, and I don't think it should be eliminated. But predominantly, stealth scout vs heavy / medium is a battle of skill and wit. A fact which people often miss. The essential thing to remember is that players can see scouts coming, and can react to attacks by scouts. Playing in a group, recognising where flank or rear attacks may occur and covering teamates, are all methods of fighting against scouts. This happens all the time. When a scout attacks, often there will be the opportunity to defend your teammate, if not yourself. Even if a scout succeeds in getting a kill players can often kill them in return and revive the victim. The interplay between scouts attempting to attack, kill and escape, whilst the other team watches for them and covers teammates, is a very interesting and compelling dynamic which this game does very well. Being able to hide from scans and kill targets extremely quickly does not spoil that interaction, it's crucial to it. As for pure skill, reacting fast and accurately enough to defend against scouts takes skill. Likewise, apart from the skill involved with closing in on enemies unseen, the act of killing a target without giving them the chance to defend and then escaping if needed also takes skill.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.30 14:31:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Right now what are the biggest failure points of the scanning side, and what are the biggest failure points of the dampening side? I think it's reasonably balanced to be honest. It's been a lot worse, and a lot of work went into getting to where we are. Biggest failure on the scanning side: Range amps are rather poor, particularly at low tiers. Though buffing them has the potential to make scanning OP, as it's effective with just the use of precision mods. Biggest failure on the dampening side: Having to fit three complex damps on an assault, or two on a Min/Am scout, just to hide from Gallente logi's long range, wide angle active scans, seems a bit much. Though, if the bonus to precision was swapped and assaults could hide with two damps, would there be enough value in a scout suit? Other than the cloak you could just use a dampened assault. More depth, such as walking/stopping to reduce profile, or weapons fire that increases profile would be great. Other changes have the potential to upset balance.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.31 21:56:00 - [7] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The way active scanners work needs some tweaking, but I don't see why it's a bad thing for a suit not designed to be sneaky (assaults) can be found by a suit designed to find sneaky suits (GalLogi). Why should assaults try to be sneaky at all? That isn't their job. That's the job of the scout suit, and they do that job quite well. Wanting assaults to be sneaky is like wanting scouts to be tanky. The problem with active scanners is they do not follow any sort of balanced rules. The longest range scans have the widest angle, which is a problem. My idea (and Adipem's) makes scanners actually active and implements some balanced rules for the variants to follow, but I see no reason for an assault to want to fit dampeners anymore than I would have a scout want to fit plates: you're going against the fundamental design of the suit. The point is it should be a fitting option. You can fit hp mods on a scout and be effective. Why can't you fit profile dampeners on an assault? You can, but is it worth it? Most people won't, but variety is what makes the game interesting. And the Gallente logi isn't designed to find sneaky suits, it's designed to find all suits. Sneaky suits are designed to hide from them. Basically, scouts are for hiding from scanners. Focussed scanners are for finding scouts. Profile dampeners are designed to hide you from scans. I'm just saying that perhaps Gallente logis should be adjusted so it's a little easier for mediums to make use of profile dampeners, if they wish, and give scouts a bit more room for fitting options other than profile dampeners. It would allow for more interesting EWAR dynamics and fitting options for all suits. Also, for people who don't play scout and complain about permascan, they could more easily fit dampeners, instead of feeling they have to go scout or be scanned. So for example, you could change the logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction. Buff focussed scanner precision from 20 to 15db, but reduce it's range to 50m. Now you've got better distinction between long range, wide angle scans that can feasibly be hidden from (even by sentinels if they so wish), and short range, longer cooldown, but extremely powerful focussed scans. Just a thought. Improving active scanner mechanics is another issue that can go with this.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.31 22:26:00 - [8] - Quote Just to add: If you think of things from a new player's perspective I think we'll have a better idea of game design that makes sense. So newish player A goes into a match in his medium suit. Sees the "you have been scanned" message a lot, and notices the enemy always seems to know where he is. He's someone that likes to flank rather than go in guns blazing, so decides to try to do something about this. He finds profile dampeners and scout suits. These don't seem to work however. He then goes to the forums and discovers you need max dampening skills, a scout suit and 1/3 of your module slots filled with dampeners, or one guy on the enemy team is likely to paint your position on the map for most of the game. He will probably just respec to assault and hp mods. Newbie B however, skills up to level 3 active scanning, and happily scans most of the enemy team all day long, looking enviously at the rep logi racking up the warpoints. Rep logi gets stabbed. Player B thinks "oh a scout, I guess he will have snuck in under my radar", shoots scout with yes before he escapes, decides whether to revive the rep logi or not (so he can't steal all the end of match isk). Perhaps the situation could be improved a little.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.31 23:41:00 - [9] - Quote In response to Alena: Perhaps dampened assaults would be OP. Though I suspect not. Since 1.8, scouts have had nerfs to cloak duration, (cloak regen?), cloak dampening, bonuses and profile. The ability to scan whilst cloaked has been effectively removed. Scout passive scans have been significantly nerfed. Without precision mods the range has been effectively halfed. Direction indicators have also been removed. Significant decloak delay was introduced. Most suits can now easily scan scouts with their inner scan rings (albite at short range). Armour plates have had their strafe speed penalty significantly increased and their fitting cost increased, primarily to prevent scouts from effectively stacking them to massively buff their small base hp. Assaults have had their hp massively buffed. Their slot count and fitting increased. Their passive scanning buffed. Their profile buffed. Their speed was nerfed by 1%. The current balance position we have now between scouts and assaults is a result of all these changes. The fact that scouts are more easily scanned now is a relatively minor factor compared to all these other changes. I doubt that reducing the required number of dampeners for a suit to hide from a non-focussed scan by 1, would give us OP stealth suits like the 1.8 Gallente scout, considering all the other changes that have been made since then. Edit: Adipem put this better than me. See above.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.01 00:06:00 - [10] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: That is something to think about. I think another part of the problem is the power curve between scanners and dampening. Ideally, dampening should beat scanning, but it should be neck-and-neck the entire way. So a level 3 GalScout with enhanced dampeners should beat a level 3 GalLogi with enhanced scanners... But just barely. Scanners are for scanning mediums and heavies, not lights. Focussed scanners are for scanning lights. Unfortunately we don't have basic or advanced focussed scanners, which is something that I think should be considered. So we'll have to look at proto level. To dampen below a Gallente logi with a focussed scanner, a Galente scout needs 3 complex profile dampeners. It is impossible for the other three scouts without an active proto cloak. I don't suggest changing this, as it is the main function of the equipment. I do however think the range should be reduced (50m), particularly if the cooldown (on Gal logis) and precision (on other suits) were buffed as per my earlier suggestions.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.01 00:13:00 - [11] - Quote I put in a little edit, which is this: I don't know about scanning. There's no reason to buff it though. At least I know that much.