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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 00:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Overpowered
* Framerate Drops
* Scrambler Rifle
* Active Scans
* Shared Squad Sight
* Armor Plates (Infantry)
* Large Blaster Turrets
* Armor Hardeners
Underpowered
* Active Scan WP
* Scout Class
* MagSec
* Ion Pistol
* Breach Shotgun
* Sniper Rifles
^ My two cents.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.19 00:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
I disagree with almost your entire list.
I somewhat agree with Active Scans, EWAR in general needs work.
Armor hardeners likely need some tweaks as well.
Maybe the magsec as well.
Disagree with everything else
Official CPM Platform
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 00:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:I disagree with almost your entire list.
Neat. What's on your list?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.19 00:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:I disagree with almost your entire list.
Neat. What items are overpowered/underpowered from your point-of-view?
I don't really worry too much with what's OP/UP at a given point to be honest. The nerf/buff cycle is perpetual, and I'm ok with that. With 4 races, 3 Frames, 8 classes, vehicles, weapons and tiers we will never be able to achieve "perfect balance"
But having said that, balance really isn't that bad right now. There is a ton of variety on the battlefield, and that's always a good sign.
Of course there are exceptions:
-I think Gallente vehicles are superior to Caldari
-Magsec: I'm not really sure, there's really nothing outright bad about it that I can find, but I think it has an identity crisis. The RR is better at close range and long distance.
- Armor hardeners. I'll agree with you on this one. I think reps should be reduced while a hardener is on.
-Ion Pistol: Don't see it enough to really be able to say. I've seen people do very well with it tho, so I can't say it's outright bad, but not popular for some reason.
-Swarms need some work. It's not necessarily that they're OP, but there isn't much of a human factor. Just fire and forget, which isn't fun.
- Large missile turrets: They seem to be UP.
That's off the top of my head.
Official CPM Platform
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
686
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Posted - 2015.07.19 00:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Only the Assault SCR is overpowered I think. The normal one isn't as spread and as easy to use for 90% of the playerbase.
Then I don't think Sniper Rifles are underpowered at all. These guys take no risk and can still easily one shot most suits. I don't see a single reason to buff even more.
Rest seems right, mostly the framerate drops part ^^
WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 01:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
But having said that, balance really isn't that bad right now. There is a ton of variety on the battlefield, and that's always a good sign.
Agreed. For the first time since Chromosome, honestly can't say which suit/class (if any) is OP/FOTM. That's huge.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
688
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Posted - 2015.07.19 01:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:
But having said that, balance really isn't that bad right now. There is a ton of variety on the battlefield, and that's always a good sign.
Agreed. For the first time since Chromosome, honestly can't say which suit/class (if any) is OP/FOTM. That's huge.
Agreed too. I can easily say what's absolute crap, but what is the best.. well.. probably a gal logi with scanners and a RR + a good Amarr/Minmatar assault to protect him. But that's not even a single suit/weapon !
WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
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Posted - 2015.07.19 08:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
* Framerate Drops
Tell me about it. We really need to get this on a better platform.
* Scrambler Rifle
I find this to be true, both qualitatively and quantitatively. I honestly feel like I melt to these faster to anything else, and I'm running armor suits most of the time.
* Active Scans
Hard to say personally. I get scanned down by passive and active scans constantly.
* Shared Squad Sight
Similar thing, Im mostly blind in my favorite suits so I dont watch the mini radar much, but i cant confirm or deny how powerful this is.
* Armor Modules (Infantry)
Which aspects in particular do you have issues with? I'll admit that shields still feel too weak compared to armor, but I'm not sure if that means armor is necessarily OP.
* Large Blaster Turrets
Can be pretty nasty, I like the DPS they do in a vehicle battle but the range still makes them pretty damn powerful. Do you think its the range that makes them OP?
* Armor Hardeners
I still maintain that the lack of active armor reps are the primary suspect, but as Breakin' has calced out, the Armor Hardeners could be toned down to 30-35%
Underpowered
* Active Scan WP
This is kind of a tough one, I mean the potential for WPs is very high, but the effective gain is pretty mediocre. Do you just suggest a increase to the Intel Kill Assist bonus?
* MagSec
I think a reasonable decrease in the charge time of this weapon is appropriate. SMGs in general are CQC weapons but the charge time directly works against that. The lower DPS and longer range of Magsec is a reasonable tradeoff given its max range....charge time is likely uneeded, and even if it stays, it should be shorter.
* Ion Pistol
This is a tough one. The reduced overheat duration was a nice change, but the gun feels like it needs something....more. Im not sure if its even damage, but more so the mechanics of how it works. Thoughts on improving it?
* Breach Shotgun
Needs more range. I'd love to see this be a solid Commando weapon, as their reload bonus works well with the small magazine. But the addition of 1m of range really doesnt make up for all of the downsides the weapon has.
* Sniper Rifles
Im not qualified to comment on the state of these.
* Cloak
Out of curiosity, what aspect of the cloak are you looking to improve? I think there are a number of things that could happen to improve them, but I'd like to get your specific thoughts on it first since I'm sure you use them more often than I do.
* Pub Payouts
Hmmm not so sure about this one. I may be jaded due to my heavy use of cheap suits, but payouts seem in a pretty decent place.
* AM Scout
Not qualified to comment on these
* Dropships (?)
Not qualified to comment on these
Additionally I'd like to see something done to make the Breach Mass Driver and the Assault Swarm Launcher actually useful. They're pretty much pointless weapons at this point, so something fundamental needs to change in the philosophy behind them.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
887
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Posted - 2015.07.19 17:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Overpowered
* Framerate Drops
* Scrambler Rifle
* Active Scans
* Shared Squad Sight
* Armor Modules (Infantry)
* Large Blaster Turrets
* Armor Hardeners
Underpowered
* Active Scan WP
* MagSec
* Ion Pistol
* Breach Shotgun
* Sniper Rifles
* Cloak
* Pub Payouts
* AM Scout
* Dropships (?)
^ My two cents.
I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. Also all Commandos/Cal Logi/Cal Assault and maybe Gal Assault in underpowered (though that last one is borderline). |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 17:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
A. OP - Armor Modules (Infantry)
Which aspects in particular do you have issues with? I'll admit that shields still feel too weak compared to armor, but I'm not sure if that means armor is necessarily OP.
B. OP - Large Blaster Turrets
Can be pretty nasty, I like the DPS they do in a vehicle battle but the range still makes them pretty damn powerful. Do you think its the range that makes them OP?
C. UP - Active Scan WP
This is kind of a tough one, I mean the potential for WPs is very high, but the effective gain is pretty mediocre. Do you just suggest a increase to the Intel Kill Assist bonus?
D. UP- Ion Pistol
This is a tough one. The reduced overheat duration was a nice change, but the gun feels like it needs something....more. Im not sure if its even damage, but more so the mechanics of how it works. Thoughts on improving it?
E. UP - Cloak
Out of curiosity, what aspect of the cloak are you looking to improve? I think there are a number of things that could happen to improve them, but I'd like to get your specific thoughts on it first since I'm sure you use them more often than I do.
* Additionally I'd like to see something done to make the Breach Mass Driver and the Assault Swarm Launcher actually useful. They're pretty much pointless weapons at this point, so something fundamental needs to change in the philosophy behind them.
A1. Preface - It is my opinion that loadout variety is a strong indicator of balance, and that a lack thereof is indicative of imbalance. Looking at the usage rates, we see diversity in high-slot module utilization. In essence, high-slot modules other than Shields (namely, precision enhancers, myofibs, damage amps) are seeing sufficiently high levels of usage to make the daily Top 10 every day. By contrast, 9 of the top 10 low-slot modules sold every day are brick-related, and the one non-brick module (KinCats) which makes the list just so happens to offset a penalty to stacking brick. In summary, when we look at daily high-slot module usage, we see balance; when we look at low-slot module usage, we see imbalance.
A2. Response - If we nerfed armor plates or introduced greater drawbacks to stacking them, mercs would be less inclined to stack brick and more inclined to run other things. There's a good chance we'd observe an increase in loadout diversity. If we buffed shields, on the other hand, there's a good chance we'd observe a decrease in loadout diversity as high-slot HP modules would potentially crowd out non-HP modules. In my estimation, a broader problem than Armor v Shield balance is is at play here; that problem is the potential for HP Modules > All Else.
B. Believe them to be simultaneously too good at too many things. If Large Blaster Turrets are not AI, then they shouldn't be so dang efficient at mopping up infantry. If they are AI, then they should perform at significant disadvantage when used as AV. When one loadout type can be all things at once, other loadout types are marginilized; that said, if it is in-fact a design goal for Large Blaster Turrets to be effective in all capacities, then yes, I'd support limiting their range.
C. A merc earns warpoints when his teammates benefit from Uplinks, Hives, Reps, etc. So long as Active Scans are shared team-wide, the same should apply to Active Scanners. Thinking +10WP Recon Assist per painted hostile dropped by teammate; +15WP Recon Assist per painted hostile dropped by squaddie.
D. Defer to its users.
E. Shimmer and/or Decloak Delay. Increasing decloak delay was a necessity, and I backed the change 110%. Was very much pleased to find that it accomplished the intended goal (to fix fire from cloak), but I feel its implementation was rather wonky. The very long delay is triggered on equip/de-equip; if possible, I'd like to see this changed to activate/deactivate. The delay itself is painfully long; I'd recommend iterating delay downward until it feels more seamless and less awkward/cumbersome.
* Completely agree; these slipped my mind. Added Breach Mass Driver and Assault Swarm Launcher to original post.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 18:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:
I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. .
o/ Vesta
Would you mind elaborating on ScP and Cloak?
* Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy (plus paycuts for everyone else on the team) is another.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
887
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Posted - 2015.07.19 18:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. .
o/ Vesta Would you mind elaborating on ScP and Cloak? * Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back.
Cloak I think is balanced (though the delay mechanics they introduced to balance it are sort of annoying to deal with). It is meant to make movement more subtle and less easily detected, particularly when you deal with an enemy who is already being engaged. It is not meant to allow you to run up into someone's face and shotgun them the instant you decloak before they have a chance to even realize you are there, which is what some people seem to expect and what it was before a working delay mechanic was introduced.
There are still problems with it, most notably the delay mechanic as implemented is annoying since it works while putting away cloak equipment instead of turning off the cloak like it probably should, also the cloak is notoriously undependable and can be either way too effective or way too ineffective depending on lighting and the color of the terrain you are running around on. If the delay mechanic was reworked a bit and the performance evened out this would be a perfect piece of equipment.
As for the scrambler pistol, there are a number of problems with these things, but it boils down too they are too dependent on headshots (which is essentially luck in this game given the **** hit detection) to be effective sidearms. I've suggested in the past that we improve the body shot damage of these things to a reasonable amount and reduce headshot damage to keep headshots about where they are now. In addition some of the variants (the burst especially) need their performance drastically changed to make them viable (dispersion on most of these tends to jump way out and make accurate shots impossible on most of these pistols, the ADS sights are some of the most abysmal sights Ive ever seen on any firearm, real or imagined, etc). (heres a thread on this weapon line I made in the past).
Also I agree with the Ion pistol being underpowered, I think it needs a longer range (SMG + 10 meters for a start) or maybe some changes to the charge mechanic to make it more viable. Right now it is completely overlapped by the SMG and completely unable to compete with it. (and another thread for the Ion Pistol) |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 18:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. .
o/ Vesta Would you mind elaborating on ScP and Cloak? * Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back. Cloak I think is balanced (though the delay mechanics they introduced to balance it are sort of annoying to deal with). It is meant to make movement more subtle and less easily detected, particularly when you deal with an enemy who is already being engaged. It is not meant to allow you to run up into someone's face and shotgun them the instant you decloak before they have a chance to even realize you are there, which is what some people seem to expect and what it was before a working delay mechanic was introduced. There are still problems with it, most notably the delay mechanic as implemented is annoying since it works while putting away cloak equipment instead of turning off the cloak like it probably should, also the cloak is notoriously undependable and can be either way too effective or way too ineffective depending on lighting and the color of the terrain you are running around on. If the delay mechanic was reworked a bit and the performance evened out this would be a perfect piece of equipment. As for the scrambler pistol, there are a number of problems with these things, but it boils down too they are too dependent on headshots (which is essentially luck in this game given the **** hit detection) to be effective sidearms. I've suggested in the past that we improve the body shot damage of these things to a reasonable amount and reduce headshot damage to keep headshots about where they are now. In addition some of the variants (the burst especially) need their performance drastically changed to make them viable (dispersion on most of these tends to jump way out and make accurate shots impossible on most of these pistols, the ADS sights are some of the most abysmal sights Ive ever seen on any firearm, real or imagined, etc). (heres a thread on this weapon line I made in the past). Also I agree with the Ion pistol being underpowered, I think it needs a longer range (SMG + 10 meters for a start) or maybe some changes to the charge mechanic to make it more viable. Right now it is completely overlapped by the SMG and completely unable to compete with it. (and another thread for the Ion Pistol)
Agreed on all points (also read your ScP post). Adding ScP to UP list.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
889
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. .
o/ Vesta Would you mind elaborating on ScP and Cloak? * Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back. Cloak I think is balanced (though the delay mechanics they introduced to balance it are sort of annoying to deal with). It is meant to make movement more subtle and less easily detected, particularly when you deal with an enemy who is already being engaged. It is not meant to allow you to run up into someone's face and shotgun them the instant you decloak before they have a chance to even realize you are there, which is what some people seem to expect and what it was before a working delay mechanic was introduced. There are still problems with it, most notably the delay mechanic as implemented is annoying since it works while putting away cloak equipment instead of turning off the cloak like it probably should, also the cloak is notoriously undependable and can be either way too effective or way too ineffective depending on lighting and the color of the terrain you are running around on. If the delay mechanic was reworked a bit and the performance evened out this would be a perfect piece of equipment. As for the scrambler pistol, there are a number of problems with these things, but it boils down too they are too dependent on headshots (which is essentially luck in this game given the **** hit detection) to be effective sidearms. I've suggested in the past that we improve the body shot damage of these things to a reasonable amount and reduce headshot damage to keep headshots about where they are now. In addition some of the variants (the burst especially) need their performance drastically changed to make them viable (dispersion on most of these tends to jump way out and make accurate shots impossible on most of these pistols, the ADS sights are some of the most abysmal sights Ive ever seen on any firearm, real or imagined, etc). (heres a thread on this weapon line I made in the past). Also I agree with the Ion pistol being underpowered, I think it needs a longer range (SMG + 10 meters for a start) or maybe some changes to the charge mechanic to make it more viable. Right now it is completely overlapped by the SMG and completely unable to compete with it. (and another thread for the Ion Pistol) Agreed on all points; also read your ScP post. Adding ScP to UP list. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you and I are on the same page in that Cloak could use polish.
Yes, except I dont think the cloak is underpowered. I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** (such as the bolt pistol and breach rail rifle, which are very close to balanced but annoying to use or fight against for various reasons). |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote: I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** .
Fair enough. Added Category "Wonky". 
PS: Breach Rail Rifle?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
890
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** . Fair enough. Added Category "Wonky". PS: Breach Rail Rifle?
Breach Rail Rifle CQC performance has been nerfed into the ground. Meanwhile its ADS performance is kind of lacking, given that the scrambler rifle outperforms it at all but the most extreme ranges, and the ADS is annoying as hell to use because of how it bounces around and how quickly recoil accumulates. It needs to be made more functional and less jumpy in ADS so its more comfy to use. I would also complain about its range issues vs. the scrambler, but I think the reality there is that we need a tactical rail and combat rifle in the game. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** . Fair enough. Added Category "Wonky". PS: Breach Rail Rifle? Breach Rail Rifle CQC performance has been nerfed into the ground. Meanwhile its ADS performance is kind of lacking, given that the scrambler rifle outperforms it at all but the most extreme ranges, and the ADS is annoying as hell to use because of how it bounces around and how quickly recoil accumulates. It needs to be made more functional and less jumpy in ADS so its more comfy to use. I would also complain about its range issues vs. the scrambler, but I think the reality there is that we need a tactical rail and combat rifle in the game.
I run RRs on roughly 50% of my loadouts; didn't even realize that the Breach Rail Rifle existed. Not trolling; truly curious. Are you possibly talking about Breach Assault Rifle?
As for comparing another rifle's performance against the current scrambler rifle, well, do you think the ScR is an appropriate benchmark?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Relevant:
https://twitter.com/H_ARUBAS/status/621919341630455808
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
894
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Posted - 2015.07.19 21:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** . Fair enough. Added Category "Wonky". PS: Breach Rail Rifle? Breach Rail Rifle CQC performance has been nerfed into the ground. Meanwhile its ADS performance is kind of lacking, given that the scrambler rifle outperforms it at all but the most extreme ranges, and the ADS is annoying as hell to use because of how it bounces around and how quickly recoil accumulates. It needs to be made more functional and less jumpy in ADS so its more comfy to use. I would also complain about its range issues vs. the scrambler, but I think the reality there is that we need a tactical rail and combat rifle in the game. I run RRs on roughly 50% of my loadouts; didn't even realize that the Breach Rail Rifle existed. Not trolling; truly curious. Are you possibly talking about Breach Assault Rifle? As for comparing another rifle's performance against the current scrambler rifle, well, do you think the ScR is an appropriate benchmark?
Naaaah, the Breach Rail Rifle = the Rail Rifle, I just include the type sometimes like "Tactical Scrambler Rifle" = Scrambler Rifle.
And I think you're right that comparing anything to the scrambler is going to result in it looking terrible, my opinion of the rail rifle is pretty independent of the scrambler though, its just the only real point of comparison in very long range rifle weaponry.
Basically the rail rifle is very close to balanced but I think its ADS performance needs to be upgraded a bit for it to be where it needs to be. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
894
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Posted - 2015.07.19 21:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
I didnt know they ported dust to watercolor! Where can I buy it? |
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.20 15:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
After reading Devadander's post, added Strongboxes to "Wonky" section.
2015.05.07 - 1919
2015.06.12 - 2281
2015.07.17 - 2650
Currently have somewhere between 2600 and 2700 myself, and (as you can see above) this number appears to growing at a rate of ~300 per month. The more active the player, the steeper the growth rate. Notice the 4703 in Saxonmish's recent respec video.
I would suggest slowing the growth rate by increasing the EOM salvage rate of Gold Keys and decreasing the EOM salvage rate of Strongboxes.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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zzZaXxx
Second-Nature
757
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Posted - 2015.07.20 19:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
You were close. Allow me to correct you:
OP:
*F*cking modded controllers
*Core F*cking Locus Grenades
*Jump Mods with F*cking Mass Driver BS
* Scrambler Rifle (more to do with UP shields)
* Active Scans
* Gal Logi
* Large Blaster Turrets
* Repair Tool WP
* Rafters on the newer multilevel map
Makes me wonder every day why I still play this game:
*Sh*tty frame rate
*Gallente LAG Facility
UP:
* Loyalty Stores
* Shield Recharge Delay
* Needles
* LAVs
* Anything Assault Rifle
* Rail Rifle
* Active Scan WP
* MagSec
* Ion Pistol
* Scrambler Pistol
* Flaylock Pistol
* Breach Shotgun
* AM Scout
* AM Logi
* CAL Logi
* CAL Assault
* CAL Sentinal
* Breach Mass Driver
* Assault Swarm Launcher
* Large Missile Turrets
* Events
Needs Polish:
* Assault HMG dispersion (less, or higher ROF & less dmg/heat
* Forge Gun splash damage (more)
* Sniper Rifle Handling
* Cloak Handling
* Bolt Pistol Magnetism
* Pub Payouts
* EWAR
* Strongboxes
* Ambush spawns |
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11
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Posted - 2015.07.20 20:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:
*Gallente LAG Facility
Good catch!
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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zzZaXxx
Second-Nature
757
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Posted - 2015.07.20 20:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:zzZaXxx wrote:
*Gallente LAG Facility
Good catch!
Best map in the game is undead. |
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.20 20:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
* Scrambler Rifle: QQ of the month rather than fotm.
* Active Scans: could use some tweaks.
* Shared Squad Sight: fine as is.
* Armor Modules (Infantry): more caldari QQ. shields need work, rather than armor OP.
* Large Blaster Turrets: needs adjustments and some buffs. only feel OP because hardeners.
* Armor Hardeners: active duration too long, and there should not be any stacked hardneners IMO.
* Repair Tool WP: also fine.
Underpowered
* Active Scan WP : not anymore, in PL that's 15 wp per kill for 16 plyers
* MagSec: fine as is
* Ion Pistol: agreed need a buff
* Scrambler Pistol: also fine
* Breach Shotgun: needs an overhaul to be worth using.
* AM Scout: not really UP just not spec worthy. needs a tweak.
* Breach Mass Driver : definitely fine as is
* Assault Swarm Launcher: needs work. Not UP but needs to be re thought out
* Large Missile Turrets: small buff, just give it the same stats it used to have before the overhaul
Wonky (Needs Polish)
* Framerate Drops: yes
* Sniper Rifle Handling:yes
* Cloak Handling: no
* Bolt Pistol Magnetism:yes
* Pub Payouts: no
* EWAR: abit
* Strongboxes: yes
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
vote Tesfa for CPM2
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 22:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:
* Shared Squad Sight: fine as is.
Many are of the opinion that if we could disable shared squad sight, we should. Why is it that you feel otherwise? Don't plan to argue with you; simply curious.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
|
Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
695
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 05:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:* Active Scans
Hard to say personally. I get scanned down by passive and active scans constantly.
* Shared Squad Sight
Similar thing, Im mostly blind in my favorite suits so I dont watch the mini radar much, but i cant confirm or deny how powerful this is.
This is much more powerful than you can imagine, it changes a battle to have just 1 scanner in your team. Ridiculously OP IMO. I played many FPS before Dust, and it's the first time I see a wallhack available IG (that's what it is).
WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 06:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:* Active Scans
Hard to say personally. I get scanned down by passive and active scans constantly.
* Shared Squad Sight
Similar thing, Im mostly blind in my favorite suits so I dont watch the mini radar much, but i cant confirm or deny how powerful this is. This is much more powerful than you can imagine, it changes a battle to have just 1 scanner in your team. Ridiculously OP IMO. I played many FPS before Dust, and it's the first time I see a wallhack available IG (that's what it is).
Do you think Active Scanner Falloff would help with this issue?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 09:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:
* Shared Squad Sight: fine as is.
Many are of the opinion that if we could disable shared squad sight, we should. I'm curious; why is it that you feel otherwise?
because it's gives a role for scouts as recon outside of active scans.
very important in sharing Intel that not all players can quite articulate. a lot of guys aren't rainbow six, or have English as a first language. Or mics.
important for me as pilot trying to provide air cover and having an idea where the enemy is engaging buddies. also for nailing equipment in hard to reach places.
With rings of detection, players have to bsay close to the enemy to passively pick them up.
still by outclassed by far by active scans.
my counter questions is why do people want it removed?
is it because it's a squad benifit that solo players don't have? I see it as a minor squads advantage that aids in sha ring Intel, that a solo player can still over come with damps, or with an active scanner. its a non wp bonus to team play.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
vote Tesfa for CPM2
|
TheD1CK
Dead Man's Game
2
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 11:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
Regarding Scouts and the cloak
Simple enough changes, Scouts without damps are.. dead.. yet only 1/4 Scouts uses them effectively (GA)
- Cloak Skill - add the Scout bonus reduction to cost of cloak field (Scout only)
- With the free bonus on Scouts themselves, adding a Dampening bonus/EWAR bonus would help
(A total rework where all Scouts had a racial bonus to Damps/EWAR and NK, then 1 race bonus each, would be nice)
That would be pretty ideal, if all that's ignored you could look at the Cloak, visibility and activation noise, though without effective damps, the red chevron already gave you away, I use cloaks a lot and don't have a major complaint other than Scan Profile.
Arirana made a post about it a while back in much more detail but showed how Scouts could be in a good place with specialist dampening and NK, I think it's correct as right now the balance seems off with the leading suit being Gal and lastly AM, GA(damps) MN(NK) CA(damps) AM(stamina?) something more interesting there would be welcome 
Trainwreck forum posting prof.5
Sorry I am too busy to come to the phone right now, I am actually playing the game.
|
|
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Zaria Min Deir
0uter.Heaven
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 12:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
A. OP - Armor Modules (Infantry)
Which aspects in particular do you have issues with? I'll admit that shields still feel too weak compared to armor, but I'm not sure if that means armor is necessarily OP.
A1. Preface - It is my opinion that loadout variety is a strong indicator of balance, and that a lack thereof is indicative of imbalance. Looking at the usage rates, we see diversity in high-slot module utilization. In essence, high-slot modules other than Shields (namely, precision enhancers, myofibs, damage amps) are seeing sufficiently high levels of usage to make the daily Top 10 every day. By contrast, 9 of the top 10 low-slot modules sold every day are brick-related, and the one non-brick module (KinCats) which makes the list just so happens to offset a penalty to stacking brick. In summary, when we look at daily high-slot module usage, we see balance; when we look at low-slot module usage, we see imbalance. A2. Response - If we nerfed armor plates or introduced greater drawbacks to stacking them, mercs would be less inclined to stack brick and more inclined to run other things. There's a good chance we'd observe an increase in loadout diversity. If we buffed shields, on the other hand, there's a good chance we'd observe a decrease in loadout diversity as high-slot HP modules would potentially crowd out non-HP modules. In my estimation, a broader problem than Armor v Shield balance is at play here; that problem is the potential for HP Modules > All Else.
Hm. I wanted to disagree slightly with your statement there... " 9 of the top 10 low-slot modules sold every day are brick-related". Yes, regular armour plates are still too heavily featured in that list, but both ferroscales and reactive plates at multiple tiers also make the list, and they are at the very least a step away from pure bricking, though, yes, they are HP modules. But I really wouldn't call the armour repairer a bricking module. Frankly, regen tanking is not the same thing as HP bricking, both for armour and shields, even if you go for a mix of both buffer and regen. Using regen modules by default detracts from the ability to stack pure HP, thus making the fit not bricked by definition (even though, yes, still mainly focused on HP).
However, I do agree, and have long been frustrated over, that "HP Modules > All Else". I think one of the issues here is that still, even after the changes to armour plates, a simple HP module is easier to fit than most other things, for low slots in particular, or at the very least, the perceived benefit to fitting cost ratio simply makes most other modules lackluster in comparison. And in the case of a utility module that might even be easier to fit, the actual effectiveness of it may be hard to visualise or understand in comparison to how easy the added HP is to see in the fitting screen. I believe that utility and regen modules should be more attractive to fit than HP modules, and until it is so, HP will continue to be the most used module type simply for expediency.
And another thing.. You have to also figure that some modules may not ever feature in the top 10 simply by their nature, without that indicating them being underutilised. For example, scouts are just one of the five infantry roles in the game, but they are really the only class that can get any great utility out of dampeners. Not saying that dampeners aren't ever used by non-scouts, they are, but that is currently far from common. Codebreakers, by their nature, are situational... That is not to say there aren't people who run around with them fitted more often than not, but generally speaking that is not the case, and then you have to figure in that they aren't even useful in all the game modes. Or for the highslots, precisicion enhancers can be, and are, used to great effectiveness, but I still would be quite surprised to find them in the top 10. Now, it is entirely possible that those modules are underutilised, but this particular graph isn't useful in demonstrating that.
Running for CPM2
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501st Headstrong
0uter.Heaven
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 12:17:00 -
[32] - Quote
Reserved for when I return...but I'm fairly certain that Shared Squad Sight isn't an issue as in order to run an all seeing fit, you are EXTREMELY squishy...
But I digress 07
"There are no rights. The world owes no one a living."-Sumner
*The Mascot of 0uter.Heaven *
Be back in 6 dayz
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 12:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Zaria Min Deir wrote: Or for the highslots, precisicion enhancers can be, and are, used to great effectiveness, but I still would be quite surprised to find them in the top 10.
Agreed on all points. Though I would point out (in response to above) that Precision Enhancers routinely make the Top 10. Albeit barely; they're typically in the last position or two. This has been the case since December 2014.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Zaria Min Deir
0uter.Heaven
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 13:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote: Or for the highslots, precisicion enhancers can be, and are, used to great effectiveness, but I still would be quite surprised to find them in the top 10. Agreed on all points. Though I would point out (in response to above) that Precision Enhancers routinely make the Top 10. Albeit barely; they're typically in the last position or two. This has been the case since December 2014.
Hmm. I will take your word on that, as though I have never seen them there, I will admit I haven't looked very often :)
Running for CPM2
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 13:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:
* Shared Squad Sight: fine as is.
Many are of the opinion that if we could disable shared squad sight, we should. I'm curious; why is it that you feel otherwise? because it's gives a role for scouts as recon outside of active scans. very important in sharing Intel that not all players can quite articulate. a lot of guys aren't rainbow six, or have English as a first language. Or mics. important for me as pilot trying to provide air cover and having an idea where the enemy is engaging buddies. also for nailing equipment in hard to reach places. With rings of detection, players have to bsay close to the enemy to passively pick them up. still by outclassed by far by active scans. my counter questions is why do people want it removed? is it because it's a squad benifit that solo players don't have? I see it as a minor squads advantage that aids in sha ring Intel, that a solo player can still over come with damps, or with an active scanner. its a non wp bonus to team play.
In response to the question, "why do people want it removed?" ...
1. Not exactly an argument, but passives aren't supposed to be shared in the first place. Shared Squad Sight was disabled by the Old Devs in Uprising 1.4. IIRC, the change came shortly after the introduction of Active Scanners and coincided with the rotation cap being lifted lifted from Heavies. Perhaps passives were ninja'd back in without announcement; more likely, the Old Devs failed to shut them off in the first place. Either way, the Old Devs wouldn't "make work" for themselves; they had reason to shut off shared passives.
2. To paraphrase Wolfman, "an FPS experience should be an immersive one; more 'heads on a swivel' and less 'chase the red chevron'."
3. Shared Passives (in their present state) exert disproportionate and arguably unreasonable pressure on CQC and Stealth-oriented playstyles. In many cases and at marginal investment, Passive Scans -- and by relation Shared Passives -- cannot be beat by dampening one's loadout.
4. Prior to the implementation Falloff , Rattati ruled that "360 degree wallhacks" afforded their operators (and the squadmates of those operators) too much reward at too little risk (read, imbalanced). If this logic applies to Medium and Long Range scans, why should it not apply to Close Range scans?
5. Recon 2.0 was intended to involve active and proactive effort. There is nothing active or proactive about spinning around and gunning down another player who happened to be picked up by your Logi's inner ring. You did not proactively check your six and see the player, nor did you did not hear the player. Nor did your Logi scan the player. You spun about reactively when the red dot blipped on your minimap or HUD.
6. If shared passives are in-fact bad for balance shared across 6 screens, they're really bad shared across 8 and supremely bad shared across 16.
7. Zaria Min Deir said so.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
|
Zaria Min Deir
0uter.Heaven
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 13:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
7. Zaria Min Deir said so.
Always a good reason to do something.
But I said what now? Ah, yes, something about shared passive scans, and how I personally would be happy to be rid of them. They are indeed problematic. I will say Tesfa makes some good points about the emphasis placed on squad versus solo play, however... I also find there to be a good case to be made for a clear difference between active scans that are more easily accessible to the squad, but are limited in duration and frequence and need to be, by their very nature, more proactive, and passive scans, that are, yes, limited by location, but are more immediate, and thus should perhaps be limited to personal use.
Now, removing shared passive scans would limit the scout recon role somewhat. As Tesfa rightly pointed out, there are language barriers and not everyone can use voice comms, either at all or all the time.  Not the simplest issue. In the end it comes down to what the designed purpose of the roles and the types of scanning are...
Running for CPM2
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The KTM DuKe
0uter.Heaven
479
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 13:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Overpowered
* Scrambler Rifle
* Active Scans
* Shared Squad Sight
* Armor Modules (Infantry)
* Large Blaster Turrets
* Armor Hardeners
* Repair Tool WP
Underpowered
* Active Scan WP
* MagSec
* Ion Pistol
* Scrambler Pistol
* Breach Shotgun
* AM Scout
* Breach Mass Driver
* Assault Swarm Launcher
* Large Missile Turrets
Wonky (Needs Polish)
* Framerate Drops
* Sniper Rifle Handling
* Cloak Handling
* Bolt Pistol Magnetism
* Pub Payouts
* EWAR
* Strongboxes
* Gallente Research Facility
^ My two cents. Plus cents from Talos, Pokey and Vesta.
Missile turrept is far from UP , still able to 1-shot maddies if used by a good tanker
Italy, a country that can QQ and speak, dont ask them to act though. Bye bye dark cloud, see you again o7
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 13:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Regarding armour modules, I think the issue is not that they are overpowered compared to shields, but that there is a wider variety of good high slot modules.
In high slots, Myobifs and damage mods are both good and common, (though I think heavy damage mods should mirror light in %).
In low slots I can see why armour is preferred.
Shield regulators are only good at proto, and shield energisers aren't good enough to compliment them for many people to focus on a shield regen build.
Cardiac regulators are good but of limited use.
Kinetic catalysers are only really good at complex, and have huge fitting costs, particularly at lower tiers.
Codebreakers have ridiculous fitting costs for the benefit, and are only good at complex.
Range amps have been nerfed to oblivion. This also affects the viability of precision mods.
Profile dampeners are rarely useful on suits other than scouts due to the ever present danger that the enemy will field a Gal logi. The precision bonus should be replaced to allow more suits to fit for stealth if they wish.
High slot mods that need a buff:
Shield energisers/rechargers. They don't give enough benefit for the module sacrifice. Also, lower tiers are worthless.
Heavy damage mods. The Amarr sentinel is the most common because nobody cares that it only has one high slot. With decent damage mods a Gallente heavy would be much more viable, with the extra damage it could output. |
Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
697
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 14:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Sequal's Back wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:* Active Scans
Hard to say personally. I get scanned down by passive and active scans constantly.
* Shared Squad Sight
Similar thing, Im mostly blind in my favorite suits so I dont watch the mini radar much, but i cant confirm or deny how powerful this is. This is much more powerful than you can imagine, it changes a battle to have just 1 scanner in your team. Ridiculously OP IMO. I played many FPS before Dust, and it's the first time I see a wallhack available IG (that's what it is). Do you think Active Scanner Falloff would help with this issue?
Mmh no.. I think it should only do snapshots so that you can only see the red dots once every 4 seconds.
Plus, all suits shouldn't be able to carry more than one scanner at a time.
I'm those who think that scanners shouldn't exist at all, but this would actually make them balanced.
And I believe that WP rewards should be doubled, and that you should earn them not only when your squad mates kill someone thanks to you, but any team member.
WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 14:38:00 -
[40] - Quote
The ion pistol is *really* solid and about the only two things I think it honestly needs are maybe 3 meters more range and to lose the shake on full charge.
I honestly don't think this weapon is 'underpowered' so much as it's outranged.
As far as the magsec goes... I think it's honestly just outclassed by what the smg (in particular the breach smg) can do. It could use a little more hipfire dispersion (keep the ADS accurate as all hell) maybe a small reduction in kick and then I'd get the bolt pistol optic onto it. I think that would fix its problems mostly.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
904
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 14:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:The ion pistol is *really* solid and about the only two things I think it honestly needs are maybe 3 meters more range and to lose the shake on full charge.
I honestly don't think this weapon is 'underpowered' so much as it's outranged.
I think all the pistols need a range outside the SMG's range. |
MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 14:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Mina Longstrike wrote:The ion pistol is *really* solid and about the only two things I think it honestly needs are maybe 3 meters more range and to lose the shake on full charge.
I honestly don't think this weapon is 'underpowered' so much as it's outranged. I think all the pistols need a range outside the SMG's range.
If you can get in to use it though it's *so* good.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
|
Zaria Min Deir
0uter.Heaven
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Regarding armour modules, I think the issue is not that they are overpowered compared to shields, but that there is a wider variety of good high slot modules.
In high slots, Myobifs and damage mods are both good and common, (though I think heavy damage mods should mirror light in %).
In low slots I can see why armour is preferred.
Shield regulators are only good at proto, and shield energisers aren't good enough to compliment them for many people to focus on a shield regen build.
Cardiac regulators are good but of limited use.
Kinetic catalysers are only really good at complex, and have huge fitting costs, particularly at lower tiers.
Codebreakers have ridiculous fitting costs for the benefit, and are only good at complex.
Range amps have been nerfed to oblivion. This also affects the viability of precision mods.
Profile dampeners are rarely useful on suits other than scouts due to the ever present danger that the enemy will field a Gal logi. The precision bonus should be replaced to allow more suits to fit for stealth if they wish.
High slot mods that need a buff:
Shield energisers/rechargers. They don't give enough benefit for the module sacrifice. Also, lower tiers are worthless.
Heavy damage mods. The Amarr sentinel is the most common because nobody cares that it only has one high slot. With decent damage mods a Gallente heavy would be much more viable, with the extra damage it could output.
This. Not exactly a question of the armour modules being too good, but rather the alternatives often not being good enough in comparison.
Running for CPM2
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
7. Zaria Min Deir said so.
Always a good reason to do something. But I said what now? Ah, yes, something about shared passive scans, and how I personally would be happy to be rid of them. They are indeed problematic. I will say Tesfa makes some good points about the emphasis placed on squad versus solo play, however... I also find there to be a good case to be made for a clear difference between active scans that are more easily accessible to the squad, but are limited in duration and frequence and need to be, by their very nature, more proactive, and passive scans, that are, yes, limited by location, but are more immediate, and thus should perhaps be limited to personal use. Now, removing shared passive scans would limit the scout recon role somewhat. As Tesfa rightly pointed out, there are language barriers and not everyone can use voice comms, either at all or all the time. Not the simplest issue. In the end it comes down to what the designed purpose of the roles and the types of scanning are...
Thank you, Zaria. In response to your and Tesfa's points:
If it is a role/function of the Scout to share his passive recon with squad ...
1. Why are passive scans of all unit types shared? Should they be?
2. Why is the base scan range of the Logi superior to that of the Scout? Should it be?
3. Why is the Scout not paid WP for "scouting"? Should he be?
4. Last December, we ruled in consensus that recon scouts were bad for balance. Should we have?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
|
zzZaXxx
Second-Nature
758
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
RR - reduce hipfire dispersion
ARs - increase range for all (fine tune with dispersion), improve shields
AHMG - Increase ROF, reduce dispersion and damage
MAGSEC - reduce recoil overall
ION - increase range
FLAYLOCK - increase radius
SCR PISTOL - increase damage, improve shields |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
905
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 16:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Mina Longstrike wrote:The ion pistol is *really* solid and about the only two things I think it honestly needs are maybe 3 meters more range and to lose the shake on full charge.
I honestly don't think this weapon is 'underpowered' so much as it's outranged. I think all the pistols need a range outside the SMG's range. If you can get in to use it though it's *so* good.
Not really sure about that either... it feels like it needs 3-5 more bullets per clip as well. If you use the Ion Pistol as a sidearm I constantly notice this, enemy suit HP generally gets low around the time you run out of bullets. If you hit every bullet they will be dead, if you miss like a quarter of them they will live with ~50-150 health, if you miss half or more they will think you are a noob and run off with half their health left laughing at you. With the bolt pistol or SMG you dont get this unless you miss half or more of your shots.
I have been ******* around with a double ion pistol suit lately just for giggles and it actually removes alot of the problems I have with the gun (aside from range) to have a second pistol I can switch to for an extra few shots.
P.S. this thing still needs its heat per shot/overheat revamped so spam shooting it is less likely to overheat. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
905
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 16:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
Zaria Min Deir wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Regarding armour modules, I think the issue is not that they are overpowered compared to shields, but that there is a wider variety of good high slot modules.
In high slots, Myobifs and damage mods are both good and common, (though I think heavy damage mods should mirror light in %).
In low slots I can see why armour is preferred.
Shield regulators are only good at proto, and shield energisers aren't good enough to compliment them for many people to focus on a shield regen build.
Cardiac regulators are good but of limited use.
Kinetic catalysers are only really good at complex, and have huge fitting costs, particularly at lower tiers.
Codebreakers have ridiculous fitting costs for the benefit, and are only good at complex.
Range amps have been nerfed to oblivion. This also affects the viability of precision mods.
Profile dampeners are rarely useful on suits other than scouts due to the ever present danger that the enemy will field a Gal logi. The precision bonus should be replaced to allow more suits to fit for stealth if they wish.
High slot mods that need a buff:
Shield energisers/rechargers. They don't give enough benefit for the module sacrifice. Also, lower tiers are worthless.
Heavy damage mods. The Amarr sentinel is the most common because nobody cares that it only has one high slot. With decent damage mods a Gallente heavy would be much more viable, with the extra damage it could output. This. Not exactly a question of the armour modules being too good, but rather the alternatives often not being good enough in comparison.
Dampeners rock, Kincats rock, Repair modules rock, the problem is HP kicks all their asses when it comes to sitting on a point guarding or facefucking point defenders.
In a head to head HP almost always wins unless the other guy just doesnt shoot as well. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
905
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 16:58:00 -
[48] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
7. Zaria Min Deir said so.
Always a good reason to do something. But I said what now? Ah, yes, something about shared passive scans, and how I personally would be happy to be rid of them. They are indeed problematic. I will say Tesfa makes some good points about the emphasis placed on squad versus solo play, however... I also find there to be a good case to be made for a clear difference between active scans that are more easily accessible to the squad, but are limited in duration and frequence and need to be, by their very nature, more proactive, and passive scans, that are, yes, limited by location, but are more immediate, and thus should perhaps be limited to personal use. Now, removing shared passive scans would limit the scout recon role somewhat. As Tesfa rightly pointed out, there are language barriers and not everyone can use voice comms, either at all or all the time. Not the simplest issue. In the end it comes down to what the designed purpose of the roles and the types of scanning are... Thank you, Zaria. In response to your and Tesfa's points: If it is a role/function of the Scout to share his passive recon with squad ... 1. Why are passive scans of all unit types shared? Should they be? 2. Why is the base scan range of the Logi superior to that of the Scout? Should it be? 3. Why is the Scout not paid WP for "scouting"? Should he be? 4. Last December, we ruled in consensus that recon scouts were bad for balance. Should we have?
I think the problem with passives isnt that they are strong, I think they should be, its that the modules dont do anything much and the default precision/range is too high. Precision and range should be dropped through the floor and the difference made up in module strength so that it takes fitting sacrifices to get good passive scanning.
Same for active scans imo, aside from active scans needing some kind of fall off mechanism, they also should be tied to precision modifiers (and possibly range mods, but Im not sold on that) so that a single piece of equipment cant counter (or at least force equipping of) 2+ dampeners. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
905
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 17:03:00 -
[49] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:RR - reduce hipfire dispersion
ARs - increase range for all (fine tune with dispersion), improve shields
AHMG - Increase ROF, reduce dispersion and damage
MAGSEC - reduce recoil overall
ION - increase range
FLAYLOCK - increase radius
SCR PISTOL - increase damage, improve shields
RR - No thanks, but an increase in ADS performance would be very welcome.
ARs - Im not convinced any of these need changes, they work pretty well as is, though I'd go for a minor range buff (note any buff to these make shield meta even worse until its fixed)
AHMG - These just have too much range right now, its absurd being sniped by an HMG at 50 meters (not even just being picked at for minor damage, but just getting wrecked from 50m away, lost a dropship to an HMG yesterday from 50-60m out, and I get they are AV, but when the heck were HMGs supposed to be medium range AI/AV all purpose weapons?)
MAGSEC - agree recoil reduction would help this thing alot
ION - range, heat per uncharged shot revamp, and +clip size would be welcome
FLAYLOCK - Nah. If these things werent so situational they would be OP already, they dont need to be improved.
SCR PISTOL - Yes to increase damage, keep an eye on headshot damage though, also burst needs to be dramatically improved in dispersion/dispersion recovery |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 17:36:00 -
[50] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
7. Zaria Min Deir said so.
Always a good reason to do something. But I said what now? Ah, yes, something about shared passive scans, and how I personally would be happy to be rid of them. They are indeed problematic. I will say Tesfa makes some good points about the emphasis placed on squad versus solo play, however... I also find there to be a good case to be made for a clear difference between active scans that are more easily accessible to the squad, but are limited in duration and frequence and need to be, by their very nature, more proactive, and passive scans, that are, yes, limited by location, but are more immediate, and thus should perhaps be limited to personal use. Now, removing shared passive scans would limit the scout recon role somewhat. As Tesfa rightly pointed out, there are language barriers and not everyone can use voice comms, either at all or all the time. Not the simplest issue. In the end it comes down to what the designed purpose of the roles and the types of scanning are... Thank you, Zaria. In response to your and Tesfa's points: If it is a role/function of the Scout to share his passive recon with squad ... 1. Why are passive scans of all unit types shared? Should they be? 2. Why is the base scan range of the Logi superior to that of the Scout? Should it be? 3. Why is the Scout not paid WP for "scouting"? Should he be? 4. Last December, we ruled in consensus that recon scouts were bad for balance. Should we have?
Maybe I can shed some light on this, or get a Dev to kick me in the kitten for being wrong if I'm wrong 
1. I believe it is the overall intent as of this time for passive scans not to be shared in general.
The nature of the response to item #1 defines the context for the following.
2. Logistics scans, including the active scanner, both bonus and equipment, should have another look for polish and scaling once passives are not shared/their sharing is more limited. A trade off must be established which is not currently present and leaving (for example) the GalLogi w/active scans in the same state as it is now after a change would be problematic. Either the logi, the scanner, or both will need a look.
3. Due to a mechanical barrier in the code AFAIK. Conceptually I would say yes a scout should be earning for recon but I do not know how likely we are to be able to see that translated into a mechanical reality. This is a recurring issue among roles in general, in that what is most tactically valuable can often not be the most effective method for earning. A state which is certainly not ideal.
4. I think that at the time it was the proper call to make, broadly speaking, but it would need to be revisited if the context of #1 is applied. Further being the right call at the time does not mean it was or is a perfect solution or without flaw. The mechanical side of scout role definition could use better polish IMO, but the what and the how are answers I'd turn to a full community thread for as my own scout play does not qualify me - in my view - to make such assessments sans input.
0.02 ISK
CPM 1, reelection platform here.
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 17:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Overpowered
* Scrambler Rifle
* Active Scans
* Shared Squad Sight
* Armor Modules (Infantry)
* Large Blaster Turrets
* Armor Hardeners
* Repair Tool WP
Underpowered
* Active Scan WP
* MagSec
* Ion Pistol
* Scrambler Pistol
* Breach Shotgun
* AM Scout
* Breach Mass Driver
* Assault Swarm Launcher
* Large Missile Turrets
Wonky (Needs Polish)
* Framerate Drops
* Sniper Rifle Handling
* Cloak Handling
* Bolt Pistol Magnetism
* Pub Payouts
* EWAR
* Strongboxes
* Gallente Research Facility
^ My two cents. Plus cents from Talos, Pokey and Vesta.
OP list
Largely agree with the following exceptions.
- Armor hardeners aren't the problem, it's passive vehicle reps combining with stacked hardeners. Make reps active mods and then tune the values of reps and hardeners to find proper balance.
- Rep Tool WP isn't simply OP, as even logi focused on using rep tools in a squad can still readily go ISK negative. Rescaling both the mechanic and values for Rep Tool earnings would likely be a good move, as I've actually advocated since closed beta, but pulling them back while leaving the current burden of cost is improper.
- Armor Modules (Infantry) - I think shields need a buff rather than armor mods a nerf. Granted in a mathmatical zero sum assessment that's the same net change but two factors change it in the live game context. First the net effect on TTK, second the net effect on diversity of offerings. In my view, overall game value is better served by a more robust set of offerings from the shield line than by a nerf to armor mods.
Underpowered
- Active scan WP - Generally agreed but with the qualfier that it not be a universal buff, rather a lessor WP value be added to team wide scans.
- Scrambler Pistol - Not sure it's UP when considering the possible alpha of a headshot (with the onboard bonus included of course). I haven't run active tests so my perception is highly anecdotal, but I have seen it doing some real work on the field. This goes in my "cannot support without more data" pile.
Otherwise generally inclined to agree.
Wonky (Needs Polish)
I'd personally put frame rate drops and the gal map under the general heading "performance" and simply state that game wide performance needs to be further polished and increased until we have a min 30 (better 60) fps standard for the game.
But maybe I'm nitpicking there.
In either case generally agree on the listed items.
CPM 1, reelection platform here.
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
910
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 18:49:00 -
[52] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:OP listLargely agree with the following exceptions.
- Armor hardeners aren't the problem, it's passive vehicle reps combining with stacked hardeners. Make reps active mods and then tune the values of reps and hardeners to find proper balance.
- Rep Tool WP isn't simply OP, as even logi focused on using rep tools in a squad can still readily go ISK negative. Rescaling both the mechanic and values for Rep Tool earnings would likely be a good move, as I've actually advocated since closed beta, but pulling them back while leaving the current burden of cost is improper.
- Armor Modules (Infantry) - I think shields need a buff rather than armor mods a nerf. Granted in a mathmatical zero sum assessment that's the same net change but two factors change it in the live game context. First the net effect on TTK, second the net effect on diversity of offerings. In my view, overall game value is better served by a more robust set of offerings from the shield line than by a nerf to armor mods.
Underpowered
- Active scan WP - Generally agreed but with the qualfier that it not be a universal buff, rather a lessor WP value be added to team wide scans.
- Scrambler Pistol - Not sure it's UP when considering the possible alpha of a headshot (with the onboard bonus included of course). I haven't run active tests so my perception is highly anecdotal, but I have seen it doing some real work on the field. This goes in my "cannot support without more data" pile.
Otherwise generally inclined to agree. Wonky (Needs Polish)I'd personally put frame rate drops and the gal map under the general heading "performance" and simply state that game wide performance needs to be further polished and increased until we have a min 30 (better 60) fps standard for the game. But maybe I'm nitpicking there. In either case generally agree on the listed items.
Armor Hardeners v. Reps, if you just make reps active and leave the basic synergy between hardeners and reps intact, then you cant balance reps for both hardened and unhardened tanks. I suggest breaking the synergy between hardeners and reps by decreasing rep amount while hardeners are active so repped effective HP/second remains the same.
Scrambler Pistol: These weapons are terrible now because of how they rely on headshots, completely. Body shots wont kill anything but an untanked scout or a nearly dead medium. This is not a workable thing in dust, its like having a sniper rifle that does ~150 damage on a headshot instead of 500+, but you have to be right next to the enemy while using it, and you still have to deal with the wonky hit detection, and any non headshots will do trivial damage. The scrambler pistol is dysfunctional across the board right now, and needs its body shot damage boosted. |
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.21 19:26:00 -
[53] - Quote
In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans.
It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes.
The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner.
We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
vote Tesfa for CPM2
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
910
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 19:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans.
It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes.
The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner.
We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it.
The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility.
P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane. |
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans.
It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes.
The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner.
We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it. The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility. P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane.
in the old days passive scans were insane. now with fall off, your only 100% efficient than at really close ranges. The farther out you are the less effective your scans may be.
here is the balance from rattati https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168249&find=unread
which clarifies all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts. scanning souts are trouble for mediums and heavies. and the should be. Now even the longest range passive scans can only lying 9th up my undamaged suit well within rifle range, which is fine from me.
But yet again we digress. talking about the pros and cons is one thing. calling the ability for the team to share OP is quite something else.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
vote Tesfa for CPM2
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:51:00 -
[56] - Quote
Squad shared passive scans are fine so long as they aren't too precise. Scouts with max skills and a complex dampener should not be scannable with passives, regardless of how many precision mods are used.
Assaults that want to get in close and flank should have a reason to dampen, without needing to sacrifice all their fitting to dampeners.
Sharing weak passives is fine. Sharing scout-hunter passives is not.
I wouldn't mind if squad share was removed, but I think passive scans are mostly ok where they are. My scout suits often use a precision mod to scan assaults at max range, and my logi uses two for the same purpose. I won't scan scouts outside the inner ring, and assaults could easily dampen below my scans.
An Amarr scout could scan most scouts, but not at a long enough range to benefit their squad. It is enough to use as a personal tool for fighting other scouts in cqc.
The only issues I see are range amps having been nerfed too much, making more dedicated scanning fits more difficult.
The inner scan ring. This was the reason range amps got nerfed. Best to remove it, but if not, range amps can only be buffed if they don't affect the inner ring.
The Gallente logi's precision bonus saturates the EWAR field. It sets the required profile too low, smothering what could be a more interesting interplay between dampening and precision. Without this bonus we may well see some assaults fitting dampeners. And precision mods may well become more useful.
Amarr scouts' bonuses are a bit lacking in comparison to the others. Range amp buffs and active scan precision nerfs would certainly help it. Though an alternative where the Am scout scan bonus is replaced would also work.
I think the discussion is kind of moot, as CCP have stated that removing squad share is not really possible. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 22:01:00 -
[57] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans.
It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes.
The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner.
We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it. The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility. P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane. in the old days passive scans were insane. now with fall off, your only 100% efficient than at really close ranges. The farther out you are the less effective your scans may be. here is the balance from rattati https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168249&find=unreadwhich clarifies all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts. scanning souts are trouble for mediums and heavies. and the should be. Now even the longest range passive scans can only lying 9th up my undamaged suit well within rifle range, which is fine from me. But yet again we digress. talking about the pros and cons is one thing. calling the ability for the team to share OP is quite something else.
A couple quick points, as it seems your thinking might be based in outdated information.
The link above points to Hotfix Charlie which was released in August of 2014. Several months later in December of 2014, EWAR was overhauled with the introduction of Falloff. Some of the EWAR interplay values and scenarios observed in HF Charlie still apply today, but in most cases they do not. Here is a breakdown of what EWAR looks like today.
As you can see, the claim "all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts" may have once been the case, but today is no longer. At a nominal investment of 1 precision enhancer, an Assault or Logi will scan even a max-damped MinScout when he enters knifing range. If it were a 1v1 setting, then this could perhaps be argued as reasonable. But with shared squad sight -- especially shared 16x -- I don't think that this could be pitched as reasonable. Do you?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3
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Posted - 2015.07.21 22:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Squad shared passive scans are fine so long as they aren't too precise. Scouts with max skills and a complex dampener should not be scannable with passives, regardless of how many precision mods are used.
Assaults that want to get in close and flank should have a reason to dampen, without needing to sacrifice all their fitting to dampeners.
Sharing weak passives is fine. Sharing scout-hunter passives is not.
I wouldn't mind if squad share was removed, but I think passive scans are mostly ok where they are. My scout suits often use a precision mod to scan assaults at max range, and my logi uses two for the same purpose. I won't scan scouts outside the inner ring, and assaults could easily dampen below my scans.
An Amarr scout could scan most scouts, but not at a long enough range to benefit their squad. It is enough to use as a personal tool for fighting other scouts in cqc.
The only issues I see are range amps having been nerfed too much, making more dedicated scanning fits more difficult.
The inner scan ring. This was the reason range amps got nerfed. Best to remove it, but if not, range amps can only be buffed if they don't affect the inner ring.
The Gallente logi's precision bonus saturates the EWAR field. It sets the required profile too low, smothering what could be a more interesting interplay between dampening and precision. Without this bonus we may well see some assaults fitting dampeners. And precision mods may well become more useful.
Amarr scouts' bonuses are a bit lacking in comparison to the others. Range amp buffs and active scan precision nerfs would certainly help it. Though an alternative where the Am scout scan bonus is replaced would also work.
I think the discussion is kind of moot, as CCP have stated that removing squad share is not really possible.
The problem with this is "scouts shouldn't be scanned ever" & the desire to remove shared passives is that it will likely just jump us back to 1.7 type gameplay, where scouts were king.
Now I agree that shared passives are quite powerful, and there should be some limits to them, but I dont want to go back to a scouts r king meta.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.21 22:27:00 -
[59] - Quote
Just to keep the record straight, Scouts weren't king until 1.8. So much has changed since then; too many things to name.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.07.21 22:53:00 -
[60] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:The problem with this is "scouts shouldn't be scanned ever" & the desire to remove shared passives is that it will likely just jump us back to 1.7 type gameplay, where scouts were king.
Now I agree that shared passives are quite powerful, and there should be some limits to them, but I dont want to go back to a scouts r king meta.
I disagree. Scouts currently are rarely scanned and certainly aren't king. The idea that scouts must be scanned to prevent them being OP is clearly incorrect.
I'm talking about buffing range amps and keeping shared scans. I see no reason to further buff scanning. The inner scan ring is currently only of marginal use, and mainly only affects nova knifers. It's removal is hardly likely to make anyone OP. Combining it with rebuffed range amps however would be disastrous.
It is currently unusual for scouts in competitive environments to be scanned by active scanners. Swapping the Gal logi precision bonus for something else scanning related will make little difference to scouts, it's about medium suit's access to stealth. Ok, maybe it will free up a module slot for some. Perhaps a Min scout could fit both a kincat and a Codebreaker at the same time like they used to! This isn't op. Perhaps focused scanners should be buffed to 15db to compensate.
My only concern with changing the Gal logi bonus, would be removing the need for scouts by giving assaults access to stealth.
At the end of the day, EWAR is in an ok place at the moment. Scouts don't get scanned and aren't OP. It would be a shame to mess it up. |
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:00:00 -
[61] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
At the end of the day, EWAR is in an ok place at the moment. Scouts don't get scanned and aren't OP. It would be a shame to mess it up.
Must disagree here. I run damps on my scout loadouts. I get scanned often by passives and occasionally by actives. It isn't common for a GalLogi to field a 15dB scanner, but I wouldn't call it rare. In most cases, 20dB is the target profile because it beats the much-more-common 21dB Active Scan. A 20dB Scout within SG or NK range is scanned by even an unenhanced Logi or Assault.
Further, Precision Enhancers are common enough to make the daily top 10 almost every day; I run at least one (16dB) on every one of my Logi and Assault loadouts. Every MinScout and most other Scouts who gets within NK/SG range get scanned.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans.
It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes.
The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner.
We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it. The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility. P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane. in the old days passive scans were insane. now with fall off, your only 100% efficient than at really close ranges. The farther out you are the less effective your scans may be. here is the balance from rattati https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168249&find=unreadwhich clarifies all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts. scanning souts are trouble for mediums and heavies. and the should be. Now even the longest range passive scans can only lying 9th up my undamaged suit well within rifle range, which is fine from me. But yet again we digress. talking about the pros and cons is one thing. calling the ability for the team to share OP is quite something else. A couple quick points, as it seems your thinking might be based in outdated information. The link above points to Hotfix Charlie which was released in August of 2014. Several months later in December of 2014, EWAR was overhauled with the introduction of Falloff. Some of the EWAR interplay values and scenarios observed in HF Charlie still apply, but in most cases they do not. Here is a breakdown of what EWAR looks like today. As you can see, the claim "all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts" may have once been the case, but today is no longer. At a nominal investment of 1 precision enhancer, an Assault or Logi will scan any MinScout when he enters knifing range, even if that MinScout runs complex dampeners in every one of his three low slots. Assuming 1v1 interplay, it could perhaps be pitched that this is reasonable. But with shared squad sight -- especially shared up to 16x -- well, I (for one) don't think that we're within range of reasonable any more. Now that you're looking at the current numbers instead of HF Charlie numbers, what do you think, Tesfa?
thanks
whew, was trying to drudge this up, had to go with charlie numbers instead.
So, a minmatar scout can be picked up in under 10 meters if the enemy suit has max presiding and all complex dampener in the lows. Most suits it's between 6-11 meters, 12 for the caldari scout.
consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there. Or he's dead, because your own scout or logi with 5 precision enhancers picked him up.
But because of the shared squad tacnet, now his squad knows where there's a gang of players...just squad interplay, here Intel I'd gathered from well withing fitting range, not 100th + from safety. risk is going there fighting and getting shot. reward is squad mates can come to help you out.
even for a solo player, by the time you are picked up passively you are already in the fight. just expect more guys to be on their way.active scan to let your team know where the enemy are attacking from.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
vote Tesfa for CPM2
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:09:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:
consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:17:00 -
[64] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
At the end of the day, EWAR is in an ok place at the moment. Scouts don't get scanned and aren't OP. It would be a shame to mess it up.
Must disagree here. I run damps on my scout loadouts. I get scanned often by passives and occasionally by actives. It isn't common for a GalLogi to field a 15dB scanner, but I wouldn't call it rare. 20dB is the target profile to beat the much-more-common 21dB Active Scans. Precision Enhancers are pretty common, and in most cases it only takes one to get below 20dB.
9 times (or more) out of 10 my scout is defeated by vision rarther than scans. In my experience scouts (properly dampened) are rarely scanned.
Though perhaps you are right that scouts should have to fit one or two damps to hide. Do you mean excluding focused scans, like now? Or one to two damps to a avoid all scans? Personally I'm fine with focussed scanners having the precision to scan me, so long as they are unwieldy enough to operate around. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 23:34:00 -
[65] - Quote
Perhaps I'm not realising when I'm being passively scanned. I like to think the inner rings are too small to have much effect, I may be wrong. At least the short range makes it difficult for squad mates to come to a victim's aid in time to save them, if they fail to defend themselves.
To Tesfa, it's zero precision mods on a medium to pick up a single dampened min scout, two precision if the scout fills all lows with dampeners. And if they are attacking with nova knives they won't be sprinting that close to the target. Knives don't charge/attack whilst sprinting, and overshooting your target is a big danger. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:36:00 -
[66] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
At the end of the day, EWAR is in an ok place at the moment. Scouts don't get scanned and aren't OP. It would be a shame to mess it up.
Must disagree here. I run damps on my scout loadouts. I get scanned often by passives and occasionally by actives. It isn't common for a GalLogi to field a 15dB scanner, but I wouldn't call it rare. 20dB is the target profile to beat the much-more-common 21dB Active Scans. Precision Enhancers are pretty common, and in most cases it only takes one to get below 20dB. 9 times (or more) out of 10 my scout is defeated by vision rarther than scans. In my experience scouts (properly dampened) are rarely scanned. Though perhaps you are right that scouts should have to fit one or two damps to hide. Do you mean excluding focused scans, like now? Or one to two damps to a avoid all scans? Personally I'm fine with focussed scanners having the precision to scan me, so long as they are unwieldy enough to operate around.
Revised my post above with specifics. In essence, if you're shotgunning or nova knifing in a Scout suit, you're more likely than not getting pinged by passives 9even if you're "properly" dampened).
To answer your question, I've no problem whatsoever with 15dB scanners briefly picking up dampened Scouts, provided those powerful scanners are used within proper bounds. When paired with KB/M, however, focused scans become one of the most imbalanced items in the game.
Back to Passives, if removing shared squad sight is off the table, I'd prefer we try something more in line with what you'd suggested earlier. Remove Falloff's inner ring altogether, or weaken them substantially. As a secondary benefit, such an adjustment would allow us to improve range extenders without creating new imbalance.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:43:00 -
[67] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
To Tesfa, it's zero precision mods on a medium to pick up a single dampened min scout, two precision if the scout fills all lows with dampeners.
Incorrect! Profile & Precision values are rounded to the nearest whole decibel and ties go to the scanner. So the inner ring of a MedFrame w/1 precision mod (16dB) scans the triple damp'd MinScout (16dB).
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:58:00 -
[68] - Quote
In that case I will revise my original statement.
Scouts aren't OP and don't get scanned, other than by very short range inner rings the occasional long cooldown focused scanner. I still therefore claim that scouts are effectively combatted without the use of scans (shoot scout with yes). So scouts do not need to be easily scannable in order to prevent them from being OP.
The inner rings could be removed on the basis of poor min scout kills/spawn. However this would be a buff to scouts, which may not be needed. I still doubt that shared passives work against scouts much currently. However, scans certainly shouldn't be buffed. Buffing range amp would have to be done very carefully.
Replacing the Gal logi precision bonus is unlikely to have much effect on whether scouts are scanned or not. Though freeing up a scout module slot and giving assaults easy stealth access, may not be wise. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.07.22 00:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
To Tesfa, it's zero precision mods on a medium to pick up a single dampened min scout, two precision if the scout fills all lows with dampeners.
If my understanding's correct, Profile & Precision values are rounded to the nearest whole decibel and ties go to the scanner. So the inner ring of a MedFrame w/1 precision mod (16dB) scans the triple damp'd MinScout (16dB).
Oops, was looking at Gal/Cal scouts by accident. |
DJINN Jecture
Templar of the Glowing Blade
429
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Posted - 2015.07.22 01:54:00 -
[70] - Quote
Nerf Hammer is OP and has been since Closed Beta, Nerf the Nerf Hammer
DJINN Jecture speaks for herself, a Closed Beta Vet, still playing Eve and Dust
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
913
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Posted - 2015.07.22 15:59:00 -
[71] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:
consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game.
Probably because of its encouraged play style. Hacking is risky, speed fits are risky, low health is risky, nova knives are risky. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.22 16:06:00 -
[72] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:
consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game. Probably because of its encouraged play style. Hacking is risky, speed fits are risky, low health is risky, nova knives are risky.
Based strictly upon Tesfa's depiction, would you expect a highly experienced MN Scout slayer like Mr Musturd to have disproportionately high KDR or disproportionately low KDR?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
914
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Posted - 2015.07.22 16:14:00 -
[73] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:
consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game. Probably because of its encouraged play style. Hacking is risky, speed fits are risky, low health is risky, nova knives are risky. Based strictly upon Tesfa's depiction, would you expect a highly experienced MN Scout slayer like Mr Musturd to have disproportionately high KDR or disproportionately low KDR?
I think theres a disconnect here between Tesfa's scenario and the reality of Min scoots, the minmatar scout isnt chosen for its slaying abilities. Its not there to slay. It can do an ok job of slaying, but that isnt why you pick the dropsuit.
So compared to someone running some Assault suit? Yes, I'd expect a min scout to have a very low KDR in comparison unless the min scout isnt doing its job. And if it isnt doing its job it should be using a different suit, since other suits would have better performance in those roles (slayer/logi/scanner/beef/etc).
Ex. Min scout should be harassing with whatever light weapon they chose, going for quick murder kills with nova knives if they see an opportunity, looking for speed hacks, and possibly dropping uplinks. If they arent doing this they should be in a different suit, since other suits would be better, ex. scan focused scout should be using Cal/Amarr, stealthy shotgun 'slayer' scouts should be running Gal/Cal, etc. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.22 16:17:00 -
[74] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:
I think theres a disconnect here between Tesfa's scenario and the reality of Min scoots ...
This is my point precisely, but I didn't want to come out and say it.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.22 22:26:00 -
[75] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:
consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game.
Not much to miss considering min logi has the lowest kill spawn ratio in the entire game, and I am primarily a min logi.
In my part time role as a min scout to put it bluntly being a min scout isn't easy. a lot of guys see nova knives on the kill feed and try it out. I can get a decent amount of nova knife kills but hardly a 2.0 kdr. mostly I'm ending the match 9/8 or something there abouts.
It has the lowest hp of all the suits and the most difficulty dampening. its is vulnerable but still effective. Every time I got killed in my min scout I never thought it was because squad shared scans. mostly because I made a bad descision at a critical moment. or tried to speed hack in situations where I shouldn't have.
For the pros it is a kick as suit, and I retired my gal scout in favor of it. I love the suit, because of the skill needed to run it.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
vote Tesfa for CPM2
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.22 23:05:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sounds like we might be on the same page, Tesfa. It's been my experience as well that running MN Scout (quick as it is) isn't exactly as easy as "run up behind, stab, run away".
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1
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Posted - 2015.07.22 23:33:00 -
[77] - Quote
This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread.
In all actuality its a scout QQ thread.
"Gal logis can scan me waaah, NERF THEM"
"Passives shouldn't be able to scan me waaah,NERF THEM"
"Assaults with their absurd base eHP/speed ratio shouldn't have to compromise to be invisible"
"Logis rep too much,nerf their WP"
I love this example:
Adipem Nothi wrote:* Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back.
He's like "look at that WP this obviously needs a nerf!!1"
Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP"
And still i'm like "1/6 made alot of WP without many kills,just as CCP intended."
Until my full ADV logi can survive as well as a cheaper ADV assault,imma say "no".
Same for my PRO logi too.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.23 00:05:00 -
[78] - Quote
Meee One wrote:This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread. In all actuality its a scout QQ thread.
What effect, if any, would it have on your assessment I were to tell that you I have 10 proto suits (including two logis) and run all of them often?
Meee One wrote:
Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP"
He earned nearly 3x the WP of the next guy on the leaderboard; in your mind, that's OK because "lost a lot of Isk". How would your argument change if I were to tell you he didn't lose alot Isk? What if I told you was running a Brutor Logi and advanced equipment and earned over a million Isk?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
916
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Posted - 2015.07.23 01:05:00 -
[79] - Quote
Meee One wrote:This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread. In all actuality its a scout QQ thread. "Gal logis can scan me waaah, NERF THEM" "Passives shouldn't be able to scan me waaah,NERF THEM" "Assaults with their absurd base eHP/speed ratio shouldn't have to compromise to be invisible" "Logis rep too much,nerf their WP" I love this example: Adipem Nothi wrote:* Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back. He's like "look at that WP this obviously needs a nerf!!1" Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP" And still i'm like "1/6 made alot of WP without many kills,just as CCP intended." Until my full ADV logi can survive as well as a cheaper ADV assault,imma say "no". Same for my PRO logi too.
Its funny you call this a scout QQ thread, because non-scouts suffer under the tyranny of scans far more than scouts do, scouts actually have the option to damp under them, but if some ******* is randomly scanning or, god forbid, 360 degree balerina scanning, with a proto scanner, my assaults are ****** and theres nothing I can do about it but go scout.
I dont know how your compromise to be invisible line ties into scout QQ, since assaults can never be invisible to scanning unless the scanner isnt trying at all, and that would be more of an assault complaint.
RE: Logi rep war points, you're ******* stupid if you think war points from rep tool is balanced right now. Im not even going to present an argument, its just so absurd that you're even contesting it.
And the rest of your post is just crying about dying alot as logi. If you cant pull at least a 1/1 KDR with logi, even while rep training, then you are bad and need to get good. |
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Meee One wrote:This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread. In all actuality its a scout QQ thread.
Certainly possible. Is it not also possible that the feedback is fair and accurate? What specifically about the feedback do you find unfair or inaccurate? Meee One wrote:
Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP"
He earned nearly 3x the WP of the next guy on the leaderboard; you argue that this is OK because he "lost a lot of Isk". How would your argument change if I were to tell you he didn't lose alot Isk? What if I told you his payout for that pub exceeded a million Isk, and that he was running a Brutor Logi?
I don't understand taking an extreme example and presenting it as the norm. Mr mustard isn't your average player, and 5k war points isn't the average logi score.
you know what gets a logi the most war points? being the only logi on your side . if nobody else brings uplinks, reps or needles then of course all the logi WP goes to the single guy doing it.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
vote Tesfa for CPM2
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
918
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:33:00 -
[81] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Meee One wrote:This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread. In all actuality its a scout QQ thread.
Certainly possible. Is it not also possible that the feedback is fair and accurate? What specifically about the feedback do you find unfair or inaccurate? Meee One wrote:
Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP"
He earned nearly 3x the WP of the next guy on the leaderboard; you argue that this is OK because he "lost a lot of Isk". How would your argument change if I were to tell you he didn't lose alot Isk? What if I told you his payout for that pub exceeded a million Isk, and that he was running a Brutor Logi? I don't understand taking an extreme example and presenting it as the norm. Mr mustard isn't your average player, and 5k war points isn't the average logi score. you know what gets a logi the most war points? being the only logi on your side . if nobody else brings uplinks, reps or needles then of course all the logi WP goes to the single guy doing it.
You dont even have to compare logis to non-logis to understand why we think repair tool WP gain is OP, just look at repair point WP gain compared to other equipment.
Even compared to uplinks the repair tool gives you an absurd amount of WP, and personally I think uplinks WP rewards are pretty high too. Injectors are about right and nanohives need improvement (purely in terms of WP, not actual battlefield performance). |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
12
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:55:00 -
[82] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:I don't understand taking an extreme example and presenting it as the norm.
I presented Musturd's case as an example; I did not claim it was the norm. My claim was and remains:
WP gaps created by reptools are extreme. "As good as" WP is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back.
That said, Cross's response below is more than reasonable:
Cross Atu wrote:Rep Tool WP isn't simply OP, as even logi focused on using rep tools in a squad can still readily go ISK negative. Rescaling both the mechanic and values for Rep Tool earnings would likely be a good move, as I've actually advocated since closed beta, but pulling them back while leaving the current burden of cost is improper.
* Removed "Repair Tool WP" from OP.
* Added "Repair Tool Mechanics & WP" to Wonky.
* Added "Relative Expense of Logi" to Wonky.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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