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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
887
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Overpowered * Framerate Drops * Scrambler Rifle * Active Scans * Shared Squad Sight * Armor Modules (Infantry) * Large Blaster Turrets * Armor Hardeners
Underpowered * Active Scan WP * MagSec * Ion Pistol * Breach Shotgun * Sniper Rifles * Cloak * Pub Payouts * AM Scout * Dropships (?)
^ My two cents.
I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. Also all Commandos/Cal Logi/Cal Assault and maybe Gal Assault in underpowered (though that last one is borderline). |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
887
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 18:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. .
o/ Vesta Would you mind elaborating on ScP and Cloak? * Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back.
Cloak I think is balanced (though the delay mechanics they introduced to balance it are sort of annoying to deal with). It is meant to make movement more subtle and less easily detected, particularly when you deal with an enemy who is already being engaged. It is not meant to allow you to run up into someone's face and shotgun them the instant you decloak before they have a chance to even realize you are there, which is what some people seem to expect and what it was before a working delay mechanic was introduced.
There are still problems with it, most notably the delay mechanic as implemented is annoying since it works while putting away cloak equipment instead of turning off the cloak like it probably should, also the cloak is notoriously undependable and can be either way too effective or way too ineffective depending on lighting and the color of the terrain you are running around on. If the delay mechanic was reworked a bit and the performance evened out this would be a perfect piece of equipment.
As for the scrambler pistol, there are a number of problems with these things, but it boils down too they are too dependent on headshots (which is essentially luck in this game given the **** hit detection) to be effective sidearms. I've suggested in the past that we improve the body shot damage of these things to a reasonable amount and reduce headshot damage to keep headshots about where they are now. In addition some of the variants (the burst especially) need their performance drastically changed to make them viable (dispersion on most of these tends to jump way out and make accurate shots impossible on most of these pistols, the ADS sights are some of the most abysmal sights Ive ever seen on any firearm, real or imagined, etc). (heres a thread on this weapon line I made in the past).
Also I agree with the Ion pistol being underpowered, I think it needs a longer range (SMG + 10 meters for a start) or maybe some changes to the charge mechanic to make it more viable. Right now it is completely overlapped by the SMG and completely unable to compete with it. (and another thread for the Ion Pistol) |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
889
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 20:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. .
o/ Vesta Would you mind elaborating on ScP and Cloak? * Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back. Cloak I think is balanced (though the delay mechanics they introduced to balance it are sort of annoying to deal with). It is meant to make movement more subtle and less easily detected, particularly when you deal with an enemy who is already being engaged. It is not meant to allow you to run up into someone's face and shotgun them the instant you decloak before they have a chance to even realize you are there, which is what some people seem to expect and what it was before a working delay mechanic was introduced. There are still problems with it, most notably the delay mechanic as implemented is annoying since it works while putting away cloak equipment instead of turning off the cloak like it probably should, also the cloak is notoriously undependable and can be either way too effective or way too ineffective depending on lighting and the color of the terrain you are running around on. If the delay mechanic was reworked a bit and the performance evened out this would be a perfect piece of equipment. As for the scrambler pistol, there are a number of problems with these things, but it boils down too they are too dependent on headshots (which is essentially luck in this game given the **** hit detection) to be effective sidearms. I've suggested in the past that we improve the body shot damage of these things to a reasonable amount and reduce headshot damage to keep headshots about where they are now. In addition some of the variants (the burst especially) need their performance drastically changed to make them viable (dispersion on most of these tends to jump way out and make accurate shots impossible on most of these pistols, the ADS sights are some of the most abysmal sights Ive ever seen on any firearm, real or imagined, etc). (heres a thread on this weapon line I made in the past). Also I agree with the Ion pistol being underpowered, I think it needs a longer range (SMG + 10 meters for a start) or maybe some changes to the charge mechanic to make it more viable. Right now it is completely overlapped by the SMG and completely unable to compete with it. (and another thread for the Ion Pistol) Agreed on all points; also read your ScP post. Adding ScP to UP list. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you and I are on the same page in that Cloak could use polish.
Yes, except I dont think the cloak is underpowered. I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** (such as the bolt pistol and breach rail rifle, which are very close to balanced but annoying to use or fight against for various reasons). |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
890
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 20:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** . Fair enough. Added Category "Wonky". PS: Breach Rail Rifle?
Breach Rail Rifle CQC performance has been nerfed into the ground. Meanwhile its ADS performance is kind of lacking, given that the scrambler rifle outperforms it at all but the most extreme ranges, and the ADS is annoying as hell to use because of how it bounces around and how quickly recoil accumulates. It needs to be made more functional and less jumpy in ADS so its more comfy to use. I would also complain about its range issues vs. the scrambler, but I think the reality there is that we need a tactical rail and combat rifle in the game. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
894
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 21:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** . Fair enough. Added Category "Wonky". PS: Breach Rail Rifle? Breach Rail Rifle CQC performance has been nerfed into the ground. Meanwhile its ADS performance is kind of lacking, given that the scrambler rifle outperforms it at all but the most extreme ranges, and the ADS is annoying as hell to use because of how it bounces around and how quickly recoil accumulates. It needs to be made more functional and less jumpy in ADS so its more comfy to use. I would also complain about its range issues vs. the scrambler, but I think the reality there is that we need a tactical rail and combat rifle in the game. I run RRs on roughly 50% of my loadouts; didn't even realize that the Breach Rail Rifle existed. Not trolling; truly curious. Are you possibly talking about Breach Assault Rifle? As for comparing another rifle's performance against the current scrambler rifle, well, do you think the ScR is an appropriate benchmark?
Naaaah, the Breach Rail Rifle = the Rail Rifle, I just include the type sometimes like "Tactical Scrambler Rifle" = Scrambler Rifle.
And I think you're right that comparing anything to the scrambler is going to result in it looking terrible, my opinion of the rail rifle is pretty independent of the scrambler though, its just the only real point of comparison in very long range rifle weaponry.
Basically the rail rifle is very close to balanced but I think its ADS performance needs to be upgraded a bit for it to be where it needs to be. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
894
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 21:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
I didnt know they ported dust to watercolor! Where can I buy it? |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
904
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 14:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:The ion pistol is *really* solid and about the only two things I think it honestly needs are maybe 3 meters more range and to lose the shake on full charge.
I honestly don't think this weapon is 'underpowered' so much as it's outranged.
I think all the pistols need a range outside the SMG's range. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
905
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 16:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Mina Longstrike wrote:The ion pistol is *really* solid and about the only two things I think it honestly needs are maybe 3 meters more range and to lose the shake on full charge.
I honestly don't think this weapon is 'underpowered' so much as it's outranged. I think all the pistols need a range outside the SMG's range. If you can get in to use it though it's *so* good.
Not really sure about that either... it feels like it needs 3-5 more bullets per clip as well. If you use the Ion Pistol as a sidearm I constantly notice this, enemy suit HP generally gets low around the time you run out of bullets. If you hit every bullet they will be dead, if you miss like a quarter of them they will live with ~50-150 health, if you miss half or more they will think you are a noob and run off with half their health left laughing at you. With the bolt pistol or SMG you dont get this unless you miss half or more of your shots.
I have been ******* around with a double ion pistol suit lately just for giggles and it actually removes alot of the problems I have with the gun (aside from range) to have a second pistol I can switch to for an extra few shots.
P.S. this thing still needs its heat per shot/overheat revamped so spam shooting it is less likely to overheat. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
905
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 16:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Zaria Min Deir wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Regarding armour modules, I think the issue is not that they are overpowered compared to shields, but that there is a wider variety of good high slot modules.
In high slots, Myobifs and damage mods are both good and common, (though I think heavy damage mods should mirror light in %).
In low slots I can see why armour is preferred. Shield regulators are only good at proto, and shield energisers aren't good enough to compliment them for many people to focus on a shield regen build. Cardiac regulators are good but of limited use. Kinetic catalysers are only really good at complex, and have huge fitting costs, particularly at lower tiers. Codebreakers have ridiculous fitting costs for the benefit, and are only good at complex. Range amps have been nerfed to oblivion. This also affects the viability of precision mods. Profile dampeners are rarely useful on suits other than scouts due to the ever present danger that the enemy will field a Gal logi. The precision bonus should be replaced to allow more suits to fit for stealth if they wish.
High slot mods that need a buff: Shield energisers/rechargers. They don't give enough benefit for the module sacrifice. Also, lower tiers are worthless. Heavy damage mods. The Amarr sentinel is the most common because nobody cares that it only has one high slot. With decent damage mods a Gallente heavy would be much more viable, with the extra damage it could output. This. Not exactly a question of the armour modules being too good, but rather the alternatives often not being good enough in comparison.
Dampeners rock, Kincats rock, Repair modules rock, the problem is HP kicks all their asses when it comes to sitting on a point guarding or facefucking point defenders.
In a head to head HP almost always wins unless the other guy just doesnt shoot as well. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
905
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 16:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
7. Zaria Min Deir said so.
Always a good reason to do something. But I said what now? Ah, yes, something about shared passive scans, and how I personally would be happy to be rid of them. They are indeed problematic. I will say Tesfa makes some good points about the emphasis placed on squad versus solo play, however... I also find there to be a good case to be made for a clear difference between active scans that are more easily accessible to the squad, but are limited in duration and frequence and need to be, by their very nature, more proactive, and passive scans, that are, yes, limited by location, but are more immediate, and thus should perhaps be limited to personal use. Now, removing shared passive scans would limit the scout recon role somewhat. As Tesfa rightly pointed out, there are language barriers and not everyone can use voice comms, either at all or all the time. Not the simplest issue. In the end it comes down to what the designed purpose of the roles and the types of scanning are... Thank you, Zaria. In response to your and Tesfa's points: If it is a role/function of the Scout to share his passive recon with squad ... 1. Why are passive scans of all unit types shared? Should they be? 2. Why is the base scan range of the Logi superior to that of the Scout? Should it be? 3. Why is the Scout not paid WP for "scouting"? Should he be? 4. Last December, we ruled in consensus that recon scouts were bad for balance. Should we have?
I think the problem with passives isnt that they are strong, I think they should be, its that the modules dont do anything much and the default precision/range is too high. Precision and range should be dropped through the floor and the difference made up in module strength so that it takes fitting sacrifices to get good passive scanning.
Same for active scans imo, aside from active scans needing some kind of fall off mechanism, they also should be tied to precision modifiers (and possibly range mods, but Im not sold on that) so that a single piece of equipment cant counter (or at least force equipping of) 2+ dampeners. |
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
905
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 17:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:RR - reduce hipfire dispersion ARs - increase range for all (fine tune with dispersion), improve shields AHMG - Increase ROF, reduce dispersion and damage MAGSEC - reduce recoil overall ION - increase range FLAYLOCK - increase radius SCR PISTOL - increase damage, improve shields
RR - No thanks, but an increase in ADS performance would be very welcome. ARs - Im not convinced any of these need changes, they work pretty well as is, though I'd go for a minor range buff (note any buff to these make shield meta even worse until its fixed) AHMG - These just have too much range right now, its absurd being sniped by an HMG at 50 meters (not even just being picked at for minor damage, but just getting wrecked from 50m away, lost a dropship to an HMG yesterday from 50-60m out, and I get they are AV, but when the heck were HMGs supposed to be medium range AI/AV all purpose weapons?) MAGSEC - agree recoil reduction would help this thing alot ION - range, heat per uncharged shot revamp, and +clip size would be welcome FLAYLOCK - Nah. If these things werent so situational they would be OP already, they dont need to be improved. SCR PISTOL - Yes to increase damage, keep an eye on headshot damage though, also burst needs to be dramatically improved in dispersion/dispersion recovery |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
910
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 18:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:OP listLargely agree with the following exceptions.
- Armor hardeners aren't the problem, it's passive vehicle reps combining with stacked hardeners. Make reps active mods and then tune the values of reps and hardeners to find proper balance.
- Rep Tool WP isn't simply OP, as even logi focused on using rep tools in a squad can still readily go ISK negative. Rescaling both the mechanic and values for Rep Tool earnings would likely be a good move, as I've actually advocated since closed beta, but pulling them back while leaving the current burden of cost is improper.
- Armor Modules (Infantry) - I think shields need a buff rather than armor mods a nerf. Granted in a mathmatical zero sum assessment that's the same net change but two factors change it in the live game context. First the net effect on TTK, second the net effect on diversity of offerings. In my view, overall game value is better served by a more robust set of offerings from the shield line than by a nerf to armor mods.
Underpowered
- Active scan WP - Generally agreed but with the qualfier that it not be a universal buff, rather a lessor WP value be added to team wide scans.
- Scrambler Pistol - Not sure it's UP when considering the possible alpha of a headshot (with the onboard bonus included of course). I haven't run active tests so my perception is highly anecdotal, but I have seen it doing some real work on the field. This goes in my "cannot support without more data" pile.
Otherwise generally inclined to agree. Wonky (Needs Polish)I'd personally put frame rate drops and the gal map under the general heading "performance" and simply state that game wide performance needs to be further polished and increased until we have a min 30 (better 60) fps standard for the game. But maybe I'm nitpicking there. In either case generally agree on the listed items.
Armor Hardeners v. Reps, if you just make reps active and leave the basic synergy between hardeners and reps intact, then you cant balance reps for both hardened and unhardened tanks. I suggest breaking the synergy between hardeners and reps by decreasing rep amount while hardeners are active so repped effective HP/second remains the same.
Scrambler Pistol: These weapons are terrible now because of how they rely on headshots, completely. Body shots wont kill anything but an untanked scout or a nearly dead medium. This is not a workable thing in dust, its like having a sniper rifle that does ~150 damage on a headshot instead of 500+, but you have to be right next to the enemy while using it, and you still have to deal with the wonky hit detection, and any non headshots will do trivial damage. The scrambler pistol is dysfunctional across the board right now, and needs its body shot damage boosted. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
910
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 19:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans.
It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes.
The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner.
We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it.
The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility.
P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
913
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 15:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote: consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game.
Probably because of its encouraged play style. Hacking is risky, speed fits are risky, low health is risky, nova knives are risky. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
914
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 16:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote: consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game. Probably because of its encouraged play style. Hacking is risky, speed fits are risky, low health is risky, nova knives are risky. Based strictly upon Tesfa's depiction, would you expect a highly experienced MN Scout slayer like Mr Musturd to have disproportionately high KDR or disproportionately low KDR?
I think theres a disconnect here between Tesfa's scenario and the reality of Min scoots, the minmatar scout isnt chosen for its slaying abilities. Its not there to slay. It can do an ok job of slaying, but that isnt why you pick the dropsuit.
So compared to someone running some Assault suit? Yes, I'd expect a min scout to have a very low KDR in comparison unless the min scout isnt doing its job. And if it isnt doing its job it should be using a different suit, since other suits would have better performance in those roles (slayer/logi/scanner/beef/etc).
Ex. Min scout should be harassing with whatever light weapon they chose, going for quick murder kills with nova knives if they see an opportunity, looking for speed hacks, and possibly dropping uplinks. If they arent doing this they should be in a different suit, since other suits would be better, ex. scan focused scout should be using Cal/Amarr, stealthy shotgun 'slayer' scouts should be running Gal/Cal, etc. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
916
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 01:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Meee One wrote:This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread. In all actuality its a scout QQ thread. "Gal logis can scan me waaah, NERF THEM" "Passives shouldn't be able to scan me waaah,NERF THEM" "Assaults with their absurd base eHP/speed ratio shouldn't have to compromise to be invisible" "Logis rep too much,nerf their WP" I love this example: Adipem Nothi wrote:* Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back. He's like "look at that WP this obviously needs a nerf!!1" Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP" And still i'm like "1/6 made alot of WP without many kills,just as CCP intended." Until my full ADV logi can survive as well as a cheaper ADV assault,imma say "no". Same for my PRO logi too.
Its funny you call this a scout QQ thread, because non-scouts suffer under the tyranny of scans far more than scouts do, scouts actually have the option to damp under them, but if some ******* is randomly scanning or, god forbid, 360 degree balerina scanning, with a proto scanner, my assaults are ****** and theres nothing I can do about it but go scout.
I dont know how your compromise to be invisible line ties into scout QQ, since assaults can never be invisible to scanning unless the scanner isnt trying at all, and that would be more of an assault complaint.
RE: Logi rep war points, you're ******* stupid if you think war points from rep tool is balanced right now. Im not even going to present an argument, its just so absurd that you're even contesting it.
And the rest of your post is just crying about dying alot as logi. If you cant pull at least a 1/1 KDR with logi, even while rep training, then you are bad and need to get good. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
918
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 18:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Meee One wrote:This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread. In all actuality its a scout QQ thread.
Certainly possible. Is it not also possible that the feedback is fair and accurate? What specifically about the feedback do you find unfair or inaccurate? Meee One wrote: Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP"
He earned nearly 3x the WP of the next guy on the leaderboard; you argue that this is OK because he "lost a lot of Isk". How would your argument change if I were to tell you he didn't lose alot Isk? What if I told you his payout for that pub exceeded a million Isk, and that he was running a Brutor Logi? I don't understand taking an extreme example and presenting it as the norm. Mr mustard isn't your average player, and 5k war points isn't the average logi score. you know what gets a logi the most war points? being the only logi on your side . if nobody else brings uplinks, reps or needles then of course all the logi WP goes to the single guy doing it.
You dont even have to compare logis to non-logis to understand why we think repair tool WP gain is OP, just look at repair point WP gain compared to other equipment.
Even compared to uplinks the repair tool gives you an absurd amount of WP, and personally I think uplinks WP rewards are pretty high too. Injectors are about right and nanohives need improvement (purely in terms of WP, not actual battlefield performance). |
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