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Posted - 2015.07.19 00:06:00 -
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Overpowered * Framerate Drops * Scrambler Rifle * Active Scans * Shared Squad Sight * Armor Plates (Infantry) * Large Blaster Turrets * Armor Hardeners
Underpowered * Active Scan WP * Scout Class * MagSec * Ion Pistol * Breach Shotgun * Sniper Rifles
^ My two cents.
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Posted - 2015.07.19 00:27:00 -
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Talos Vagheitan wrote:I disagree with almost your entire list.
Neat. What's on your list?
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Posted - 2015.07.19 01:03:00 -
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Talos Vagheitan wrote: But having said that, balance really isn't that bad right now. There is a ton of variety on the battlefield, and that's always a good sign.
Agreed. For the first time since Chromosome, honestly can't say which suit/class (if any) is OP/FOTM. That's huge.
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Posted - 2015.07.19 17:47:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote: A. OP - Armor Modules (Infantry) Which aspects in particular do you have issues with? I'll admit that shields still feel too weak compared to armor, but I'm not sure if that means armor is necessarily OP.
B. OP - Large Blaster Turrets Can be pretty nasty, I like the DPS they do in a vehicle battle but the range still makes them pretty damn powerful. Do you think its the range that makes them OP?
C. UP - Active Scan WP This is kind of a tough one, I mean the potential for WPs is very high, but the effective gain is pretty mediocre. Do you just suggest a increase to the Intel Kill Assist bonus?
D. UP- Ion Pistol This is a tough one. The reduced overheat duration was a nice change, but the gun feels like it needs something....more. Im not sure if its even damage, but more so the mechanics of how it works. Thoughts on improving it?
E. UP - Cloak Out of curiosity, what aspect of the cloak are you looking to improve? I think there are a number of things that could happen to improve them, but I'd like to get your specific thoughts on it first since I'm sure you use them more often than I do.
* Additionally I'd like to see something done to make the Breach Mass Driver and the Assault Swarm Launcher actually useful. They're pretty much pointless weapons at this point, so something fundamental needs to change in the philosophy behind them.
A1. Preface - It is my opinion that loadout variety is a strong indicator of balance, and that a lack thereof is indicative of imbalance. Looking at the usage rates, we see diversity in high-slot module utilization. In essence, high-slot modules other than Shields (namely, precision enhancers, myofibs, damage amps) are seeing sufficiently high levels of usage to make the daily Top 10 every day. By contrast, 9 of the top 10 low-slot modules sold every day are brick-related, and the one non-brick module (KinCats) which makes the list just so happens to offset a penalty to stacking brick. In summary, when we look at daily high-slot module usage, we see balance; when we look at low-slot module usage, we see imbalance.
A2. Response - If we nerfed armor plates or introduced greater drawbacks to stacking them, mercs would be less inclined to stack brick and more inclined to run other things. There's a good chance we'd observe an increase in loadout diversity. If we buffed shields, on the other hand, there's a good chance we'd observe a decrease in loadout diversity as high-slot HP modules would potentially crowd out non-HP modules. In my estimation, a broader problem than Armor v Shield balance is is at play here; that problem is the potential for HP Modules > All Else.
B. Believe them to be simultaneously too good at too many things. If Large Blaster Turrets are not AI, then they shouldn't be so dang efficient at mopping up infantry. If they are AI, then they should perform at significant disadvantage when used as AV. When one loadout type can be all things at once, other loadout types are marginilized; that said, if it is in-fact a design goal for Large Blaster Turrets to be effective in all capacities, then yes, I'd support limiting their range.
C. A merc earns warpoints when his teammates benefit from Uplinks, Hives, Reps, etc. So long as Active Scans are shared team-wide, the same should apply to Active Scanners. Thinking +10WP Recon Assist per painted hostile dropped by teammate; +15WP Recon Assist per painted hostile dropped by squaddie.
D. Defer to its users.
E. Shimmer and/or Decloak Delay. Increasing decloak delay was a necessity, and I backed the change 110%. Was very much pleased to find that it accomplished the intended goal (to fix fire from cloak), but I feel its implementation was rather wonky. The very long delay is triggered on equip/de-equip; if possible, I'd like to see this changed to activate/deactivate. The delay itself is painfully long; I'd recommend iterating delay downward until it feels more seamless and less awkward/cumbersome.
* Completely agree; these slipped my mind. Added Breach Mass Driver and Assault Swarm Launcher to original post.
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Posted - 2015.07.19 18:03:00 -
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Vesta Opalus wrote: I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. .
o/ Vesta
Would you mind elaborating on ScP and Cloak?
* Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy (plus paycuts for everyone else on the team) is another.
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Posted - 2015.07.19 18:35:00 -
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Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I'd remove cloak from underpowered and add scrambler pistols and shield tanking in general. Also put repair tools and WP rewards for uplinks and repair tools in overpowered. .
o/ Vesta Would you mind elaborating on ScP and Cloak? * Adding Reptool WP to the list; the WP gaps these things create are pretty extreme. "As good as" is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back. Cloak I think is balanced (though the delay mechanics they introduced to balance it are sort of annoying to deal with). It is meant to make movement more subtle and less easily detected, particularly when you deal with an enemy who is already being engaged. It is not meant to allow you to run up into someone's face and shotgun them the instant you decloak before they have a chance to even realize you are there, which is what some people seem to expect and what it was before a working delay mechanic was introduced. There are still problems with it, most notably the delay mechanic as implemented is annoying since it works while putting away cloak equipment instead of turning off the cloak like it probably should, also the cloak is notoriously undependable and can be either way too effective or way too ineffective depending on lighting and the color of the terrain you are running around on. If the delay mechanic was reworked a bit and the performance evened out this would be a perfect piece of equipment. As for the scrambler pistol, there are a number of problems with these things, but it boils down too they are too dependent on headshots (which is essentially luck in this game given the **** hit detection) to be effective sidearms. I've suggested in the past that we improve the body shot damage of these things to a reasonable amount and reduce headshot damage to keep headshots about where they are now. In addition some of the variants (the burst especially) need their performance drastically changed to make them viable (dispersion on most of these tends to jump way out and make accurate shots impossible on most of these pistols, the ADS sights are some of the most abysmal sights Ive ever seen on any firearm, real or imagined, etc). (heres a thread on this weapon line I made in the past). Also I agree with the Ion pistol being underpowered, I think it needs a longer range (SMG + 10 meters for a start) or maybe some changes to the charge mechanic to make it more viable. Right now it is completely overlapped by the SMG and completely unable to compete with it. (and another thread for the Ion Pistol)
Agreed on all points (also read your ScP post). Adding ScP to UP list.
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:31:00 -
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Vesta Opalus wrote: I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** . Fair enough. Added Category "Wonky".
PS: Breach Rail Rifle?
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:49:00 -
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Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I think you need a third category "broken" for stuff that is essentially balanced but still annoying as **** . Fair enough. Added Category "Wonky". PS: Breach Rail Rifle? Breach Rail Rifle CQC performance has been nerfed into the ground. Meanwhile its ADS performance is kind of lacking, given that the scrambler rifle outperforms it at all but the most extreme ranges, and the ADS is annoying as hell to use because of how it bounces around and how quickly recoil accumulates. It needs to be made more functional and less jumpy in ADS so its more comfy to use. I would also complain about its range issues vs. the scrambler, but I think the reality there is that we need a tactical rail and combat rifle in the game. I run RRs on roughly 50% of my loadouts; didn't even realize that the Breach Rail Rifle existed. Not trolling; truly curious. Are you possibly talking about Breach Assault Rifle?
As for comparing another rifle's performance against the current scrambler rifle, well, do you think the ScR is an appropriate benchmark?
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:51:00 -
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Relevant: https://twitter.com/H_ARUBAS/status/621919341630455808
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Posted - 2015.07.20 15:18:00 -
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After reading Devadander's post, added Strongboxes to "Wonky" section.
2015.05.07 - 1919 2015.06.12 - 2281 2015.07.17 - 2650
Currently have somewhere between 2600 and 2700 myself, and (as you can see above) this number appears to growing at a rate of ~300 per month. The more active the player, the steeper the growth rate. Notice the 4703 in Saxonmish's recent respec video.
I would suggest slowing the growth rate by increasing the EOM salvage rate of Gold Keys and decreasing the EOM salvage rate of Strongboxes.
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Posted - 2015.07.20 20:06:00 -
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zzZaXxx wrote: *Gallente LAG Facility
Good catch!
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Posted - 2015.07.20 22:06:00 -
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Tesfa Alem wrote: * Shared Squad Sight: fine as is.
Many are of the opinion that if we could disable shared squad sight, we should. Why is it that you feel otherwise? Don't plan to argue with you; simply curious.
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Posted - 2015.07.21 12:30:00 -
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Zaria Min Deir wrote: Or for the highslots, precisicion enhancers can be, and are, used to great effectiveness, but I still would be quite surprised to find them in the top 10. Agreed on all points. Though I would point out (in response to above) that Precision Enhancers routinely make the Top 10. Albeit barely; they're typically in the last position or two. This has been the case since December 2014.
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Posted - 2015.07.21 13:05:00 -
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Tesfa Alem wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote: * Shared Squad Sight: fine as is.
Many are of the opinion that if we could disable shared squad sight, we should. I'm curious; why is it that you feel otherwise? because it's gives a role for scouts as recon outside of active scans. very important in sharing Intel that not all players can quite articulate. a lot of guys aren't rainbow six, or have English as a first language. Or mics. important for me as pilot trying to provide air cover and having an idea where the enemy is engaging buddies. also for nailing equipment in hard to reach places. With rings of detection, players have to bsay close to the enemy to passively pick them up. still by outclassed by far by active scans. my counter questions is why do people want it removed? is it because it's a squad benifit that solo players don't have? I see it as a minor squads advantage that aids in sha ring Intel, that a solo player can still over come with damps, or with an active scanner. its a non wp bonus to team play. In response to the question, "why do people want it removed?" ...
1. Not exactly an argument, but passives aren't supposed to be shared in the first place. Shared Squad Sight was disabled by the Old Devs in Uprising 1.4. IIRC, the change came shortly after the introduction of Active Scanners and coincided with the rotation cap being lifted lifted from Heavies. Perhaps passives were ninja'd back in without announcement; more likely, the Old Devs failed to shut them off in the first place. Either way, the Old Devs wouldn't "make work" for themselves; they had reason to shut off shared passives.
2. To paraphrase Wolfman, "an FPS experience should be an immersive one; more 'heads on a swivel' and less 'chase the red chevron'."
3. Shared Passives (in their present state) exert disproportionate and arguably unreasonable pressure on CQC and Stealth-oriented playstyles. In many cases and at marginal investment, Passive Scans -- and by relation Shared Passives -- cannot be beat by dampening one's loadout.
4. Prior to the implementation Falloff , Rattati ruled that "360 degree wallhacks" afforded their operators (and the squadmates of those operators) too much reward at too little risk (read, imbalanced). If this logic applies to Medium and Long Range scans, why should it not apply to Close Range scans?
5. Recon 2.0 was intended to involve active and proactive effort. There is nothing active or proactive about spinning around and gunning down another player who happened to be picked up by your Logi's inner ring. You did not proactively check your six and see the player, nor did you did not hear the player. Nor did your Logi scan the player. You spun about reactively when the red dot blipped on your minimap or HUD.
6. If shared passives are in-fact bad for balance shared across 6 screens, they're really bad shared across 8 and supremely bad shared across 16.
7. Zaria Min Deir said so.
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Posted - 2015.07.21 15:20:00 -
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Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
7. Zaria Min Deir said so.
Always a good reason to do something. But I said what now? Ah, yes, something about shared passive scans, and how I personally would be happy to be rid of them. They are indeed problematic. I will say Tesfa makes some good points about the emphasis placed on squad versus solo play, however... I also find there to be a good case to be made for a clear difference between active scans that are more easily accessible to the squad, but are limited in duration and frequence and need to be, by their very nature, more proactive, and passive scans, that are, yes, limited by location, but are more immediate, and thus should perhaps be limited to personal use. Now, removing shared passive scans would limit the scout recon role somewhat. As Tesfa rightly pointed out, there are language barriers and not everyone can use voice comms, either at all or all the time. Not the simplest issue. In the end it comes down to what the designed purpose of the roles and the types of scanning are... Thank you, Zaria. In response to your and Tesfa's points:
If it is a role/function of the Scout to share his passive recon with squad ...
1. Why are passive scans of all unit types shared? Should they be? 2. Why is the base scan range of the Logi superior to that of the Scout? Should it be? 3. Why is the Scout not paid WP for "scouting"? Should he be? 4. Last December, we ruled in consensus that recon scouts were bad for balance. Should we have?
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Posted - 2015.07.21 22:01:00 -
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Tesfa Alem wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans.
It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes.
The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner.
We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it. The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility. P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane. in the old days passive scans were insane. now with fall off, your only 100% efficient than at really close ranges. The farther out you are the less effective your scans may be. here is the balance from rattati https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168249&find=unreadwhich clarifies all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts. scanning souts are trouble for mediums and heavies. and the should be. Now even the longest range passive scans can only lying 9th up my undamaged suit well within rifle range, which is fine from me. But yet again we digress. talking about the pros and cons is one thing. calling the ability for the team to share OP is quite something else.
A couple quick points, as it seems your thinking might be based in outdated information.
The link above points to Hotfix Charlie which was released in August of 2014. Several months later in December of 2014, EWAR was overhauled with the introduction of Falloff. Some of the EWAR interplay values and scenarios observed in HF Charlie still apply today, but in most cases they do not. Here is a breakdown of what EWAR looks like today.
As you can see, the claim "all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts" may have once been the case, but today is no longer. At a nominal investment of 1 precision enhancer, an Assault or Logi will scan even a max-damped MinScout when he enters knifing range. If it were a 1v1 setting, then this could perhaps be argued as reasonable. But with shared squad sight -- especially shared 16x -- I don't think that this could be pitched as reasonable. Do you?
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Posted - 2015.07.21 22:27:00 -
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Just to keep the record straight, Scouts weren't king until 1.8. So much has changed since then; too many things to name.
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:00:00 -
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Varoth Drac wrote:
At the end of the day, EWAR is in an ok place at the moment. Scouts don't get scanned and aren't OP. It would be a shame to mess it up.
Must disagree here. I run damps on my scout loadouts. I get scanned often by passives and occasionally by actives. It isn't common for a GalLogi to field a 15dB scanner, but I wouldn't call it rare. In most cases, 20dB is the target profile because it beats the much-more-common 21dB Active Scan. A 20dB Scout within SG or NK range is scanned by even an unenhanced Logi or Assault.
Further, Precision Enhancers are common enough to make the daily top 10 almost every day; I run at least one (16dB) on every one of my Logi and Assault loadouts. Every MinScout and most other Scouts who gets within NK/SG range get scanned.
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:09:00 -
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Tesfa Alem wrote: consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game.
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:36:00 -
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Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:
At the end of the day, EWAR is in an ok place at the moment. Scouts don't get scanned and aren't OP. It would be a shame to mess it up.
Must disagree here. I run damps on my scout loadouts. I get scanned often by passives and occasionally by actives. It isn't common for a GalLogi to field a 15dB scanner, but I wouldn't call it rare. 20dB is the target profile to beat the much-more-common 21dB Active Scans. Precision Enhancers are pretty common, and in most cases it only takes one to get below 20dB. 9 times (or more) out of 10 my scout is defeated by vision rarther than scans. In my experience scouts (properly dampened) are rarely scanned. Though perhaps you are right that scouts should have to fit one or two damps to hide. Do you mean excluding focused scans, like now? Or one to two damps to a avoid all scans? Personally I'm fine with focussed scanners having the precision to scan me, so long as they are unwieldy enough to operate around. Revised my post above with specifics. In essence, if you're shotgunning or nova knifing in a Scout suit, you're more likely than not getting pinged by passives 9even if you're "properly" dampened).
To answer your question, I've no problem whatsoever with 15dB scanners briefly picking up dampened Scouts, provided those powerful scanners are used within proper bounds. When paired with KB/M, however, focused scans become one of the most imbalanced items in the game.
Back to Passives, if removing shared squad sight is off the table, I'd prefer we try something more in line with what you'd suggested earlier. Remove Falloff's inner ring altogether, or weaken them substantially. As a secondary benefit, such an adjustment would allow us to improve range extenders without creating new imbalance.
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:43:00 -
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Varoth Drac wrote: To Tesfa, it's zero precision mods on a medium to pick up a single dampened min scout, two precision if the scout fills all lows with dampeners.
Incorrect! Profile & Precision values are rounded to the nearest whole decibel and ties go to the scanner. So the inner ring of a MedFrame w/1 precision mod (16dB) scans the triple damp'd MinScout (16dB).
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Posted - 2015.07.22 16:06:00 -
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Vesta Opalus wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote: consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there.
Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game. Probably because of its encouraged play style. Hacking is risky, speed fits are risky, low health is risky, nova knives are risky. Based strictly upon Tesfa's depiction, would you expect a highly experienced MN Scout slayer like Mr Musturd to have disproportionately high KDR or disproportionately low KDR?
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Posted - 2015.07.22 16:17:00 -
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Vesta Opalus wrote: I think theres a disconnect here between Tesfa's scenario and the reality of Min scoots ...
This is my point precisely, but I didn't want to come out and say it.
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Posted - 2015.07.22 23:05:00 -
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Sounds like we might be on the same page, Tesfa. It's been my experience as well that running MN Scout (quick as it is) isn't exactly as easy as "run up behind, stab, run away".
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Posted - 2015.07.23 00:05:00 -
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Meee One wrote:This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread. In all actuality its a scout QQ thread.
What effect, if any, would it have on your assessment I were to tell that you I have 10 proto suits (including two logis) and run all of them often?
Meee One wrote: Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP"
He earned nearly 3x the WP of the next guy on the leaderboard; in your mind, that's OK because "lost a lot of Isk". How would your argument change if I were to tell you he didn't lose alot Isk? What if I told you was running a Brutor Logi and advanced equipment and earned over a million Isk?
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Posted - 2015.07.23 18:55:00 -
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Tesfa Alem wrote:I don't understand taking an extreme example and presenting it as the norm. I presented Musturd's case as an example; I did not claim it was the norm. My claim was and remains:
WP gaps created by reptools are extreme. "As good as" WP is one thing. Thousands more WP than the next guy plus paycuts for everyone else on the team is another. Especially now that Logis are better able to fight back.
That said, Cross's response below is more than reasonable:
Cross Atu wrote:Rep Tool WP isn't simply OP, as even logi focused on using rep tools in a squad can still readily go ISK negative. Rescaling both the mechanic and values for Rep Tool earnings would likely be a good move, as I've actually advocated since closed beta, but pulling them back while leaving the current burden of cost is improper.
* Removed "Repair Tool WP" from OP. * Added "Repair Tool Mechanics & WP" to Wonky. * Added "Relative Expense of Logi" to Wonky.
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