DUST Search - [Feedback] OP / UP

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Tesfa Alem wrote:

Vesta Opalus wrote:

Tesfa Alem wrote:

In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans.

It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes.

The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner.

We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it.

The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility.

P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane.

in the old days passive scans were insane. now with fall off, your only 100% efficient than at really close ranges. The farther out you are the less effective your scans may be.

here is the balance from rattati https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168249&find=unread

which clarifies all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts. scanning souts are trouble for mediums and heavies. and the should be. Now even the longest range passive scans can only lying 9th up my undamaged suit well within rifle range, which is fine from me.

But yet again we digress. talking about the pros and cons is one thing. calling the ability for the team to share OP is quite something else.

A couple quick points, as it seems your thinking might be based in outdated information.

The link above points to Hotfix Charlie which was released in August of 2014. Several months later in December of 2014, EWAR was overhauled with the introduction of Falloff. Some of the EWAR interplay values and scenarios observed in HF Charlie still apply, but in most cases they do not. Here is a breakdown of what EWAR looks like today.

As you can see, the claim "all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts" may have once been the case, but today is no longer. At a nominal investment of 1 precision enhancer, an Assault or Logi will scan any MinScout when he enters knifing range, even if that MinScout runs complex dampeners in every one of his three low slots. Assuming 1v1 interplay, it could perhaps be pitched that this is reasonable. But with shared squad sight -- especially shared up to 16x -- well, I (for one) don't think that we're within range of reasonable any more.

Now that you're looking at the current numbers instead of HF Charlie numbers, what do you think, Tesfa?


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.20 20:23:00 - [1] - Quote * Scrambler Rifle: QQ of the month rather than fotm. * Active Scans: could use some tweaks. * Shared Squad Sight: fine as is. * Armor Modules (Infantry): more caldari QQ. shields need work, rather than armor OP. * Large Blaster Turrets: needs adjustments and some buffs. only feel OP because hardeners. * Armor Hardeners: active duration too long, and there should not be any stacked hardneners IMO. * Repair Tool WP: also fine. Underpowered * Active Scan WP : not anymore, in PL that's 15 wp per kill for 16 plyers * MagSec: fine as is * Ion Pistol: agreed need a buff * Scrambler Pistol: also fine * Breach Shotgun: needs an overhaul to be worth using. * AM Scout: not really UP just not spec worthy. needs a tweak. * Breach Mass Driver : definitely fine as is * Assault Swarm Launcher: needs work. Not UP but needs to be re thought out * Large Missile Turrets: small buff, just give it the same stats it used to have before the overhaul Wonky (Needs Polish) * Framerate Drops: yes * Sniper Rifle Handling:yes * Cloak Handling: no * Bolt Pistol Magnetism:yes * Pub Payouts: no * EWAR: abit * Strongboxes: yes Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati vote Tesfa for CPM2
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.21 09:03:00 - [2] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: * Shared Squad Sight: fine as is. Many are of the opinion that if we could disable shared squad sight, we should. I'm curious; why is it that you feel otherwise? because it's gives a role for scouts as recon outside of active scans. very important in sharing Intel that not all players can quite articulate. a lot of guys aren't rainbow six, or have English as a first language. Or mics. important for me as pilot trying to provide air cover and having an idea where the enemy is engaging buddies. also for nailing equipment in hard to reach places. With rings of detection, players have to bsay close to the enemy to passively pick them up. still by outclassed by far by active scans. my counter questions is why do people want it removed? is it because it's a squad benifit that solo players don't have? I see it as a minor squads advantage that aids in sha ring Intel, that a solo player can still over come with damps, or with an active scanner. its a non wp bonus to team play. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati vote Tesfa for CPM2
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.21 19:26:00 - [3] - Quote In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans. It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes. The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner. We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati vote Tesfa for CPM2
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.21 21:24:00 - [4] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans. It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes. The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner. We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it. The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility. P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane. in the old days passive scans were insane. now with fall off, your only 100% efficient than at really close ranges. The farther out you are the less effective your scans may be. here is the balance from rattati https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168249&find=unread which clarifies all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts. scanning souts are trouble for mediums and heavies. and the should be. Now even the longest range passive scans can only lying 9th up my undamaged suit well within rifle range, which is fine from me. But yet again we digress. talking about the pros and cons is one thing. calling the ability for the team to share OP is quite something else. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati vote Tesfa for CPM2
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.21 23:02:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: In response, and basically re iterating my support for squad shared passive scans: Whether by original intent when coding the game years ago or not I have yet to hear an argument that squad scans are abused. It just turned into a talk about the nature of passive scans. It's a tool that can not be used for wp. Passive scans work for everybody across the different classes. The only drawback is that if you engage one member of a squad at cqc the others will know. But you're passive scanning them right back anyways so when you engage your own squad will know? Hell, all they will know is only the location within your cqc scan range. The enemy is not highlighted for a long duration of time, and if he kills me quick enough nobody will know where he was, unlike anot active scanner. We can only tailor this team based tactical shooter for solo players so far. It's one of the benifits to squads that don't result in wp or isk. It isn't broke, no need to fix it. The problem comes when someone runs a scanning fit and you get 50 meter radius perma scans that can find anything but a highly dampened scout without much effort. This actually existed, I used to run it myself on a Cal Scout (2 precision/2 range mods), and it was pretty absurd how much utility it gives your squad, especially in CQC maps like Gallente Lag Facility. P.S. Not sure 50m is the correct radius, I think it was something closer to 70m at the time. It was pretty insane. in the old days passive scans were insane. now with fall off, your only 100% efficient than at really close ranges. The farther out you are the less effective your scans may be. here is the balance from rattati https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168249&find=unread which clarifies all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts. scanning souts are trouble for mediums and heavies. and the should be. Now even the longest range passive scans can only lying 9th up my undamaged suit well within rifle range, which is fine from me. But yet again we digress. talking about the pros and cons is one thing. calling the ability for the team to share OP is quite something else. A couple quick points, as it seems your thinking might be based in outdated information. The link above points to Hotfix Charlie which was released in August of 2014. Several months later in December of 2014, EWAR was overhauled with the introduction of Falloff. Some of the EWAR interplay values and scenarios observed in HF Charlie still apply, but in most cases they do not. Here is a breakdown of what EWAR looks like today. As you can see, the claim "all passive scans can be beaten by all scouts" may have once been the case, but today is no longer. At a nominal investment of 1 precision enhancer, an Assault or Logi will scan any MinScout when he enters knifing range, even if that MinScout runs complex dampeners in every one of his three low slots. Assuming 1v1 interplay, it could perhaps be pitched that this is reasonable. But with shared squad sight -- especially shared up to 16x -- well, I (for one) don't think that we're within range of reasonable any more. Now that you're looking at the current numbers instead of HF Charlie numbers, what do you think, Tesfa? thanks whew, was trying to drudge this up, had to go with charlie numbers instead. So, a minmatar scout can be picked up in under 10 meters if the enemy suit has max presiding and all complex dampener in the lows. Most suits it's between 6-11 meters, 12 for the caldari scout. consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there. Or he's dead, because your own scout or logi with 5 precision enhancers picked him up. But because of the shared squad tacnet, now his squad knows where there's a gang of players...just squad interplay, here Intel I'd gathered from well withing fitting range, not 100th + from safety. risk is going there fighting and getting shot. reward is squad mates can come to help you out. even for a solo player, by the time you are picked up passively you are already in the fight. just expect more guys to be on their way.active scan to let your team know where the enemy are attacking from. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati vote Tesfa for CPM2
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.22 22:26:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: consider the min scouts moves at a base 7+ meters per second sprint speed, he's in and killed you or in and out of range before your squad even knows he's there. Sounds good. But we must be missing something as MN Scout kill/spawn efficiency is among the lowest in the game. Not much to miss considering min logi has the lowest kill spawn ratio in the entire game, and I am primarily a min logi. In my part time role as a min scout to put it bluntly being a min scout isn't easy. a lot of guys see nova knives on the kill feed and try it out. I can get a decent amount of nova knife kills but hardly a 2.0 kdr. mostly I'm ending the match 9/8 or something there abouts. It has the lowest hp of all the suits and the most difficulty dampening. its is vulnerable but still effective. Every time I got killed in my min scout I never thought it was because squad shared scans. mostly because I made a bad descision at a critical moment. or tried to speed hack in situations where I shouldn't have. For the pros it is a kick as suit, and I retired my gal scout in favor of it. I love the suit, because of the skill needed to run it. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati vote Tesfa for CPM2
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.23 18:17:00 - [7] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Meee One wrote: This seems to be a "fix whats broken" thread. In all actuality its a scout QQ thread. Certainly possible. Is it not also possible that the feedback is fair and accurate? What specifically about the feedback do you find unfair or inaccurate? Meee One wrote: Yet i'm like "look at that K/D,he obviously lost a lot of ISK regardless of WP" He earned nearly 3x the WP of the next guy on the leaderboard; you argue that this is OK because he "lost a lot of Isk". How would your argument change if I were to tell you he didn't lose alot Isk? What if I told you his payout for that pub exceeded a million Isk, and that he was running a Brutor Logi? I don't understand taking an extreme example and presenting it as the norm. Mr mustard isn't your average player, and 5k war points isn't the average logi score. you know what gets a logi the most war points? being the only logi on your side . if nobody else brings uplinks, reps or needles then of course all the logi WP goes to the single guy doing it. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati vote Tesfa for CPM2