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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.05.19 15:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Yes, other games have strafing, but strafing doesn't let people dodge bullets. I know most dont like the comparison with Destiny, but they have excellent strafing gameplay: you can move sideways quickly enough to reach cover, but you simply cannot stand in the open and not die. There aren't any videos (that I'm aware of) that show what wiggling in Destiny looks like, but this is a great video that demonstrates what the kind of strafing that you're talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYZn9tUc2Y0In it, they're still moving side to side, and it's still important in throwing off your opponent, but they aren't tap dancing and avoiding shots - it's far closer to the video Adipem linked where the strafing is about timing it to make your opponent shoot the wrong way rather than just moving side to side ridiculously quickly and avoiding 50% of their shots. I actually play Destiny a lot now and I tried to wiggle strafe to see what it was like - it doesn't work, I barely moved at all.
But wiggle strafe where you are literally tap-dancing in that manner doesn't really get you out of your opponents targeting reticle, he's not all that far out of it in the video (out of incident, props to that player, he is really good). The waggle-dancing in this [Dust] barely, if at all, gets outside of the reticle and so the problem must be hit detection.
Whenever I come up against this the majority of my shots appear to hit, but no damage is registered, which to me indicates that the majority of the issue is hit detection. Number of shots hitting also seems to depend on the weapon, which would further point towards hit detection.
To be honest, I don't come across it all that often, maybe once or twice a day will I die to it across 10 - 20 games played, but it's irritating enough to be a problem and I would imagine it's a much bigger problem at the higher tiers of competitive play. I'll freely admit I'm a little more casual, but my previous posts on the matter still stand for me.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.19 16:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
Even at 60%, strafing 'legitimately' is entirely possible.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.05.19 16:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Even at 60%, strafing 'legitimately' is entirely possible.
Of course it is, but 1/3 speed cut is a hell of a nerf to have to swallow for the sake of 1 negative behaviour and smacks of overkill. |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.05.19 17:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Even at 60%, strafing 'legitimately' is entirely possible. Of course it is, but 1/3 speed cut is a hell of a nerf to have to swallow for the sake of 1 negative behaviour and smacks of overkill.
Well, it does because we have fundamentally different opinions on how bad the current strafing mechanic is 
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
9
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Posted - 2015.05.19 17:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Even at 60%, strafing 'legitimately' is entirely possible. Of course it is, but 1/3 speed cut is a hell of a nerf to have to swallow for the sake of 1 negative behaviour and smacks of overkill.
Krias makes a good point; I'm inclined to agree. Ideally, we'll should try to find a way to fix wiggling without penalizing legitimate strafing. If that isn't possible and/or hit detection improvements are out-of-reach, then it'd likely be best to slowly dial down strafe speeds until wiggling becomes less effective. Legitimate strafing would be impacted by strafe speed reduction, and we should try to minimize that impact where possible.
Note: Aim Assist was implemented after 90% strafe speed was introduced. For all we know, AA may perfectly track 60% strafe speed.  If no other options are tenable, and it is concluded that strafe speed reduction is the best way to address wiggle, I'd suggest we start with 90% --> 85% rather than 90% --> 60%.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.19 18:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
TheD1CK wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:What Adipem said.
The strafing is utter stupidity. I can and have used it to win firefights, simply because if I don't I won't be able to kill the enemy who is strafing ridiculously fast enough. It's a bad mechanic and it sure as hell is not 'gun game.' Would be more effective to remove hipfire magic sights Problem ******* solved for reals Well yeah, that could help too. The problems with current strafing are many: accuracy while moving is way too high; strafing speed is way too fast - using stationary cover and trying to aim is worthless comparatively. Reducing accuracy while moving would go a long way to help rid Dust of dance offs in the middle of a firefight.  If Weapons could go into full recoil when fired while strafing. that might help So rather than firing 30 bullets before your aim is at all affected, strafing would cause it immediatly
Completely agree with Break'n.
Both Kallas and TheD have some great ideas here. +1s
If I may offer my own, on the topic of inertia:
PROPOSAL
You do not need true-to-physics deceleration and acceleration to fix this problem. One piece alone would kill the wiggle-hit-detection-break-dance. Without changing the current mechanics of the game, simply change the rate at which you accelerate when you BEGIN a strafe (or any new vector of movement). There is no need for deceleration when you stop. Allow mercs to come to dead stops just as they do now, the magic should only be when beginning a strafe, there should be a minor ramp-up to speed. That alone would be enough to help hit detection and would "simulate" inertia without necessarily being as complex. I'm almost certain this is already coded into the game because I doubt we reach max speed instantly when sprinting forward (I suppose I could be wrong about this, I am going by anecdotal feel).
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
9
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Posted - 2015.05.19 18:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:
PROPOSAL
You do not need true-to-physics deceleration and acceleration to fix this problem. One piece alone would kill the wiggle-hit-detection-break-dance. Without changing the current mechanics of the game, simply change the rate at which you accelerate when you BEGIN a strafe (or any new vector of movement). There is no need for deceleration when you stop. Allow mercs to come to dead stops just as they do now, the magic should only be when beginning a strafe, there should be a minor ramp-up to speed. That alone would be enough to help hit detection and would "simulate" inertia without necessarily being as complex.
Agreed. Acceleration / Inertia would be the best way to cure the wiggle.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8
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Posted - 2015.05.19 20:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kaeru Nayiri wrote:
PROPOSAL
You do not need true-to-physics deceleration and acceleration to fix this problem. One piece alone would kill the wiggle-hit-detection-break-dance. Without changing the current mechanics of the game, simply change the rate at which you accelerate when you BEGIN a strafe (or any new vector of movement). There is no need for deceleration when you stop. Allow mercs to come to dead stops just as they do now, the magic should only be when beginning a strafe, there should be a minor ramp-up to speed. That alone would be enough to help hit detection and would "simulate" inertia without necessarily being as complex.
Agreed. Acceleration on directional change would be a wonderful way to cure the wiggle.
the ideal way
but I know it was sent for tech eval, but no word has come back on it.
for months.
Leading me to assume it's not in the cards.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.20 17:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
I was under the impression that it was full blown inertia that was sent for evaluation. Am I mistaken?
Know what cannot be known.
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THUNDERGROOVE
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
1
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Posted - 2015.05.20 18:05:00 -
[40] - Quote
I agree to to whole more recoil/spread while strafing.
Every time I go back and play a Battlefield game I die probably 5 or so times before I get back into the don't strafe mentality.
The only thing I really seeing being a problem because of this is that it will be very difficult to mitigate HMG damageI guess the heavy can be shot at by multiple people. 
Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you
AIV member.
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THUNDERGROOVE
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
1
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Posted - 2015.05.20 18:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Krias Thracian wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Even at 60%, strafing 'legitimately' is entirely possible. Of course it is, but 1/3 speed cut is a hell of a nerf to have to swallow for the sake of 1 negative behaviour and smacks of overkill. Krias makes a good point; I'm inclined to agree. Ideally, we'll should try to find a way to fix wiggling without penalizing legitimate strafing. If that isn't possible and/or hit detection improvements are out-of-reach, then it'd likely be best to slowly dial down strafe speeds until wiggling is remedied. We should try to minimize the impact to legitimate strafing where possible. Also, Aim Assist was implemented after 90% strafe speed was introduced. For all we know, AA may perfectly track 60% strafe speed. If no other options are tenable, and it is concluded that strafe speed reduction is the best way to address wiggle, I'd suggest we start with 90% --> 85% (and see what happens) rather jumping straight from 90% to 60%.
AA and bullet magnetism are adjustable(hotfixable) on a per weapon basis 
Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you
AIV member.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.05.20 18:23:00 -
[42] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Alright, since it appears that actual inertia is off the table, can we have the strafe speeds reverted to 60% of base momove speed?
The wiggle dance has more or less replaced tactical movement and use of cover.
The mechanics here are terrible and damaging to players for whom ability to aim and fight properly has been replaced by needing to load up aim assist to compensate.
I'd like to be able to turn off AA and aim please.
But there IS inertia.
Provable by close video examination.
It is just very very barely noticable.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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THUNDERGROOVE
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
1
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Posted - 2015.05.20 19:03:00 -
[43] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
But there IS inertia.
Provable by close video examination.
It is just very very barely noticable.
Are you sure it's not a combination of input lag and the inability of moving the stick to one side or the other instantly?
Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you
AIV member.
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
RUST415
848
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Posted - 2015.05.21 07:33:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm for it and against it to be honest. I mean, in every other FPS in the world forward walk speed and sidestep speed is the same. And it works. Why is it broken ONLY in Dust? It would be illogical to state that people can't track sidestepping targets -- because people do so just fine in literally hundreds of other games.
I would say it is because of the way the netcode and hit detection interact. So while reducing strafe speed would definitely ameliorate the problem, the problem is still there. If possible, wouldn't it be better if CCP focused on making hit detection and netcode interact better be a better fix?
Cause I'll tell ya what, I am sick and tired of putting a laser beam into a guy, and having him sidestep across the constant non stop beam 4 times yet take 0 damage. At the same time, I don't want that guy to be unable to sidestep reasonably...weapons DPS is actually pretty high and TTK would drop significantly without the current accuracy issues. |
Starlight Burner
Arrary of Clusters
267
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Posted - 2015.05.21 09:08:00 -
[45] - Quote
Hit Detection should be fixed first.
If they remove Aim Assist, I will not play DUST until M&K input lag is fixed. You don't play a FPS game with a controller with no AA. Thats just stupid.
CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation
Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today!
Thank you for DUST
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Regnier Feros
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
368
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Posted - 2015.05.21 11:22:00 -
[46] - Quote
Starlight Burner wrote:You don't play a FPS game with a controller with no AA.
Why not?
ZariaOwnsWhips
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8
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Posted - 2015.05.21 12:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Starlight Burner wrote:Hit Detection should be fixed first.
If they remove Aim Assist, I will not play DUST until M&K input lag is fixed. You don't play a FPS game with a controller with no AA. Thats just stupid.
Who suggested removing aim assist?
I'd like to be able to run without it. Currently it is the only way to partially compensate for the strafe wiggle and even tthen only barely.
Being able to turn it off without negative consequence is what I want.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.05.21 13:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
But there IS inertia.
Provable by close video examination.
It is just very very barely noticable.
Are you sure it's not a combination of input lag and the inability of moving the stick to one side or the other instantly?
Yes, very sure about that.
I made sure that the character is on maximum movement input 100% of the time.
Normally if you strafe to one direction, your crosshairs deviate some amount. If you stop, crosshairs get tighter again.
Now, if you change strafe from left to right, the crosshairs get tighter for a very small moment before widening again.
This indicates that there is a brief moment of non-maximum movement which in turns indicates there is inertia or simple acceleration going on.
Note that this happens even when the input is non-stop.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
9
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Posted - 2015.05.21 13:44:00 -
[49] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:THUNDERGROOVE wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
But there IS inertia.
Provable by close video examination.
It is just very very barely noticable.
Are you sure it's not a combination of input lag and the inability of moving the stick to one side or the other instantly? Yes, very sure about that. I made sure that the character is on maximum movement input 100% of the time. Normally if you strafe to one direction, your crosshairs deviate some amount. If you stop, crosshairs get tighter again. Now, if you change strafe from left to right, the crosshairs get tighter for a very small moment before widening again.This indicates that there is a brief moment of non-maximum movement which in turns indicates there is inertia or simple acceleration going on. Note that this happens even when the input is non-stop.
If you're right -- if inertia is on but set so low that it is barely perceptible -- it stands to reason that they can turn it up.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Damodred Matari
Heavy Support INC
182
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Posted - 2015.05.21 14:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
"The wiggle dance has more or less replaced tactical movement and use of cover"
It has always been this way you scumbag goon.
Shut fi yuh mout before mi bax yuh
Thank you for playing the wheel of fortune.
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2
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Posted - 2015.05.21 14:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
Yes, let's treat the symptom instead of the cause. I see you're following the old Dust team's philosophy and I agree, why actually fix the problem when we can just cover it up; so much easier that way.
You know, it's kind of funny nobody complained about strafing back in Chrome when hit detection was 10x worse than what we have now and you could strafe around 5-6 guys without fear, oh and back then strafe speed was 100% movement speed; it was only moving backwards that was slowed. Maybe back then we knew that something that's been in FPS's since the first FPS isn't the problem.
I got a lot of stuff you want and could just have if it weren't for the trade tax.
Rated [TV-MA]
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
9
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Posted - 2015.05.21 14:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Yes, let's treat the symptom instead of the cause. I see you're following the old Dust team's philosophy and I agree, why actually fix the problem when we can just cover it up; so much easier that way.
You know, it's kind of funny nobody complained about strafing back in Chrome when hit detection was 10x worse than what we have now and you could strafe around 5-6 guys without fear, oh and back then strafe speed was 100% movement speed; it was only moving backwards that was slowed. Maybe back then we knew that something that's been in FPS's since the first FPS isn't the problem.
Back in Chrome, it didn't take 3/4s of clip to down a dancing medframe. HP levels were lower and (when they hit) weapons hit harder.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
Damodred Matari wrote:"The wiggle dance has more or less replaced tactical movement and use of cover" It has always been this way you scumbag goon.
What's this I hear? The mating call of one dreaming of becoming one of the space elite, yet doomed to forever be oppressed?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:24:00 -
[54] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Yes, let's treat the symptom instead of the cause. I see you're following the old Dust team's philosophy and I agree, why actually fix the problem when we can just cover it up; so much easier that way.
You know, it's kind of funny nobody complained about strafing back in Chrome when hit detection was 10x worse than what we have now and you could strafe around 5-6 guys without fear, oh and back then strafe speed was 100% movement speed; it was only moving backwards that was slowed. Maybe back then we knew that something that's been in FPS's since the first FPS isn't the problem.
This is a textbook e ample of a post made without any sort of fact-checking.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Back in Chrome, it didn't take 3/4s of clip to down a dancing medframe. HP levels were lower and weapons hit harder. Wiggling seldom saved a merc caught offguard from behind ... which is the complete opposite of what is happening today.
* Also, strafe speed was much slower than forward movement speed in Chromosome; it increased to 90% in early Uprising.
Did we play the same Chrome? The only people you could kill in a clip where the people that stood still; anyone that was moving required at least one reload. And no, only the back peddle speed got an increase because it was the same speed as walking backwards in the MQ. Now strafe speed did eventual get a buff but that was after it was nerfed after Chrome and everyone flipped their sh!t over it.
The TTK is way shorter than it was back then and the only reason wiggling saves anyone now is because they never properly fixed hit detection.
I got a lot of stuff you want and could just have if it weren't for the trade tax.
Rated [TV-MA]
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Yes, let's treat the symptom instead of the cause. I see you're following the old Dust team's philosophy and I agree, why actually fix the problem when we can just cover it up; so much easier that way.
You know, it's kind of funny nobody complained about strafing back in Chrome when hit detection was 10x worse than what we have now and you could strafe around 5-6 guys without fear, oh and back then strafe speed was 100% movement speed; it was only moving backwards that was slowed. Maybe back then we knew that something that's been in FPS's since the first FPS isn't the problem. This is a textbook e ample of a post made without any sort of fact-checking.
And this is a textbook example of a thread that's trying to push an asinine but easy fix to a symptom rather than fixing the actual problem. Edit: The old team would be proud of you.
I got a lot of stuff you want and could just have if it weren't for the trade tax.
Rated [TV-MA]
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Back in Chrome, it didn't take 3/4s of clip to down a dancing medframe. HP levels were lower and weapons hit harder. Wiggling seldom saved a merc caught offguard from behind ... which is the complete opposite of what is happening today.
* Also, strafe speed was much slower than forward movement speed in Chromosome; it increased to 90% in early Uprising.
Did we play the same Chrome? The only people you could kill in a clip where the people that stood still; anyone that was moving required at least one reload. And no, only the back peddle speed got an increase because it was the same speed as walking backwards in the MQ. Now strafe speed did eventual get a buff but that was after it was nerfed after Chrome and everyone flipped their sh!t over it. The TTK is way shorter than it was back then and the only reason wiggling saves anyone now is because they never properly fixed hit detection.
lol, i do recall jumping around reloading sometimes to take some people out. Think my record was three reloads on one epic fight with a guy.
Overlord of Broman
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:34:00 -
[58] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Yes, let's treat the symptom instead of the cause. I see you're following the old Dust team's philosophy and I agree, why actually fix the problem when we can just cover it up; so much easier that way.
You know, it's kind of funny nobody complained about strafing back in Chrome when hit detection was 10x worse than what we have now and you could strafe around 5-6 guys without fear, oh and back then strafe speed was 100% movement speed; it was only moving backwards that was slowed. Maybe back then we knew that something that's been in FPS's since the first FPS isn't the problem. This is a textbook e ample of a post made without any sort of fact-checking. And this is a textbook example of a thread that's trying to push an asinine but easy fix to a symptom rather than fixing the actual problem.
Actually learn to read. My reasoning is posted and clear. You trying to derail the topic with uunconstructive ranting isn't Going to change the fact that inertia and hit detection aren't on the agenda Any time in the future, no matter how many times I and people like me have called for it.
Since it's obvious that an actual ficfix is a forlorn hope at this point I'll take damage control.
So do you have anything yseful to add to the topic, or are you just here to sh*tpost vigorously to protect the wiggle dance?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:43:00 -
[59] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Actually learn to read. My reasoning is posted and clear. You trying to derail the topic with unconstructive ranting isn't Going to change the fact that inertia and hit detection aren't on the agenda Any time in the future, no matter how many times I and people like me have called for it.
Since it's obvious that an actual fix is a forlorn hope at this point I'll take damage control.
So do you have anything useful to add to the topic, or are you just here to sh*tpost vigorously to protect the wiggle dance?
The only sh!t posts are the ones supporting this asinine idea. Your damage control was already tried and it hurt the game.
I got a lot of stuff you want and could just have if it weren't for the trade tax.
Rated [TV-MA]
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
9
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:45:00 -
[60] - Quote
As I recall, bulletweaving in Chrome was better accomplished by sprinting and bunnyhopping than by strafing. Either way, solid Hit Detection has never been among Dust's strengths. If HD improvement is low-hanging fruit, then go for it. Why not? If it isn't (which seems more likely) then inertia/acceleration is our next best bet.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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