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Posted - 2015.05.18 12:27:00 -
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Breakin Stuff wrote: 1. The wiggle dance has more or less replaced tactical movement and use of cover.
2. I'd like to be able to turn off AA and aim please.
1. Agreed. 2. Isn't there an option in Settings?
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- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.05.18 23:32:00 -
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Krias Thracian wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Alright, since it appears that actual inertia is off the table, can we have the strafe speeds reverted to 60% of base momove speed?
The wiggle dance has more or less replaced tactical movement and use of cover.
The mechanics here are terrible and damaging to players for whom ability to aim and fight properly has been replaced by needing to load up aim assist to compensate.
I'd like to be able to turn off AA and aim please. Strafing is and has been a staple of FPS gameplay for some time and it's strength is amplified on a console shooter due to the natural imprecision of the control pad as a method for control in an FPS. Dust further reinforces movement as it's primary defense for various reasons. I'm far more concerned with the bunny hoppers who can jump anything up to 2-3 stories high than I am with strafing. The use of cover is dangerous in this game as you can be one-shotted with a great deal of ease even when pretty well tanked and warbarge strikes further compound issues with cover (barring snipers and other distance campers obviously) so that movement is just the best defense you can have. Part of that is the "wiggle dance" you seem to hate. People do so much damage that even in cover, any angle you can be shot at will kill you, with the general ineffectiveness of the radar (to encourage scanning, a very clever mechanic), no cover is truly safe as it would be in a more traditional FPS like one of the Halo Series for example. All of this pushes down the trend towards cover and tactical movement and pushes up the use of strafing and semi-randomised movement in the game. Combine this with remote explosives and mass drivers and other large splash damage weapons and cover is a very dangerous place to be, not inherently, but just because standing in one place is generally suicide. If you want to push it back the other way then you need to do more than just nerf movement, cover has to be reasonable and safer than it currently is. I have no idea how you would implement it, but I would buff cover so that if you're shot when you're in cover you get a form of damage resistance/hardening to your shields/armour. Cover dampens damage that comes from the side you are in cover or something similar to that. Off the top of my head I can't think of a reasonable way to implement this but I'm sure people here would have other ideas for buffing cover.
Here's what strafing looked like before wiggle-wiggle was introduced: https://youtu.be/PYXffQMXXxM?t=74
^ Deliberate evasive maneuvers. Quite effective when done right, and quite different from gyrating in place.
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- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.05.19 14:00:00 -
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Krias Thracian wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Here's what strafing looked like before wiggle-wiggle was introduced: https://youtu.be/PYXffQMXXxM?t=74^ Deliberate evasive maneuvers. Quite effective when done right, and quite different from gyrating in place while spraying aim-assisted hipfire. Looks pretty much like what I see in-game currently to me. What is it you are unhappy with in that case? The video above was recorded in Chromosome, where (iirc) strafe speed was set to 60% of movement speed, HP pools were around half of today's and aim-assist was yet to have been implemented. I have no issue whatsoever with the deliberate evasive maneuvers illustrated above; the ability to place shots on target while executing these maneuvers absolutely and invariably required skill. What we see above is quite different from what we see today.
Today, strafe speed is set to 90% of movement speed. Speed is perhaps not a problem on its own, but combined with Dust's lack of inertia/acceleration and today's higher HP levels, players are afforded opportunity to defy physics and (for example) evade a high percentage of point-blank HMG fire by "wiggling" in place. Unlike strafing, there is no thought or deliberate effort put into wiggling; players simply gyrate and spray while aim-assist aims for them.
To answer your question directly, I am unhappy with the fact that players (myself included) are being rewarded for maximizing the effects of bad mechanics. I'm of the opinion that player skill, practice, planning and positioning should play a greater part in the outcome of a given fight than my ability to wiggle around while a robot aims my gun.
TL;DR: Wiggling =/= Strafing
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- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.05.19 17:53:00 -
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Krias Thracian wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Even at 60%, strafing 'legitimately' is entirely possible. Of course it is, but 1/3 speed cut is a hell of a nerf to have to swallow for the sake of 1 negative behaviour and smacks of overkill. Krias makes a good point; I'm inclined to agree. Ideally, we'll should try to find a way to fix wiggling without penalizing legitimate strafing. If that isn't possible and/or hit detection improvements are out-of-reach, then it'd likely be best to slowly dial down strafe speeds until wiggling becomes less effective. Legitimate strafing would be impacted by strafe speed reduction, and we should try to minimize that impact where possible.
Note: Aim Assist was implemented after 90% strafe speed was introduced. For all we know, AA may perfectly track 60% strafe speed. If no other options are tenable, and it is concluded that strafe speed reduction is the best way to address wiggle, I'd suggest we start with 90% --> 85% rather than 90% --> 60%.
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- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.05.19 18:48:00 -
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Kaeru Nayiri wrote: PROPOSAL You do not need true-to-physics deceleration and acceleration to fix this problem. One piece alone would kill the wiggle-hit-detection-break-dance. Without changing the current mechanics of the game, simply change the rate at which you accelerate when you BEGIN a strafe (or any new vector of movement). There is no need for deceleration when you stop. Allow mercs to come to dead stops just as they do now, the magic should only be when beginning a strafe, there should be a minor ramp-up to speed. That alone would be enough to help hit detection and would "simulate" inertia without necessarily being as complex.
Agreed. Acceleration / Inertia would be the best way to cure the wiggle.
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Posted - 2015.05.21 13:44:00 -
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KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:THUNDERGROOVE wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: But there IS inertia. Provable by close video examination.
It is just very very barely noticable.
Are you sure it's not a combination of input lag and the inability of moving the stick to one side or the other instantly? Yes, very sure about that. I made sure that the character is on maximum movement input 100% of the time. Normally if you strafe to one direction, your crosshairs deviate some amount. If you stop, crosshairs get tighter again. Now, if you change strafe from left to right, the crosshairs get tighter for a very small moment before widening again.This indicates that there is a brief moment of non-maximum movement which in turns indicates there is inertia or simple acceleration going on. Note that this happens even when the input is non-stop. If you're right -- if inertia is on but set so low that it is barely perceptible -- it stands to reason that they can turn it up.
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Posted - 2015.05.21 14:36:00 -
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Thumb Green wrote:Yes, let's treat the symptom instead of the cause. I see you're following the old Dust team's philosophy and I agree, why actually fix the problem when we can just cover it up; so much easier that way.
You know, it's kind of funny nobody complained about strafing back in Chrome when hit detection was 10x worse than what we have now and you could strafe around 5-6 guys without fear, oh and back then strafe speed was 100% movement speed; it was only moving backwards that was slowed. Maybe back then we knew that something that's been in FPS's since the first FPS isn't the problem.
Back in Chrome, it didn't take 3/4s of clip to down a dancing medframe. HP levels were lower and (when they hit) weapons hit harder.
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- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.05.21 15:45:00 -
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As I recall, bulletweaving in Chrome was better accomplished by sprinting and bunnyhopping than by strafing. Either way, solid Hit Detection has never been among Dust's strengths. If HD improvement is low-hanging fruit, then go for it. Why not? If it isn't (which seems more likely) then inertia/acceleration is our next best bet.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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