DUST Search - Why are Amar Logis the only ones to have a sidearm in all logistics?

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote:

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

I have consistently asked this to be fixed but the logis keep protesting.

Inversely they do not want any other logis to have a sidearm which makes me think there is something amiss with the class generally.

I do not mean to derail the thread but this is why CPM stands to be a flawed system.

You have now openly stated that you are lobbying for something AGAINST what the community is saying. Almost no one says anything about this and obviously CCP has even accepted that there is not a problem but you continue to push your agenda with little to no backing from the community which you are suppose to represent.

OP asked a simple question and never even said there was actually a problem with it himself and you just used his thread and a sounding board to attempt to push your agenda. Not only that you could not even state what the problem is.

How about instead of bickering over what you feel is an imbalance you do what you were elected to do and try to get some community feedback on what needs to be done to balance all logis with the rest of the field. This is what the rest of the CPM are doing. They not only present them self as being passionate about the game but passionate about what the community wants to see.

Reporting for derailment. If you want to be crass about things am am not allowed to generally make suggestions in then take it to the council chambers.

Also I still yet to see a core design reason to give amarr a side arm. The original iteration comes off as a just because kind of thinking that has plagued the rest of dust 514.

I can grantee you that had amarr logistics had not been originally designed with qwith a side arm not a single one of you would suggest adding it.

Also eve diction is an excessively poor defense. On average amarr have the fewest guns. This is to lower reactor stress but they hit pretty darn hard out of the box such as the tacyons beams. Minmatar have the most guns on average.

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hold that Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 776	Posted - 2015.04.21 22:54:00 - [61] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I have consistently asked this to be fixed but the logis keep protesting. Inversely they do not want any other logis to have a sidearm which makes me think there is something amiss with the class generally. I do not mean to derail the thread but this is why CPM stands to be a flawed system. You have now openly stated that you are lobbying for something AGAINST what the community is saying. Almost no one says anything about this and obviously CCP has even accepted that there is not a problem but you continue to push your agenda with little to no backing from the community which you are suppose to represent. OP asked a simple question and never even said there was actually a problem with it himself and you just used his thread and a sounding board to attempt to push your agenda. Not only that you could not even state what the problem is. How about instead of bickering over what you feel is an imbalance you do what you were elected to do and try to get some community feedback on what needs to be done to balance all logis with the rest of the field. This is what the rest of the CPM are doing. They not only present them self as being passionate about the game but passionate about what the community wants to see. Reporting for derailment. If you want to be crass about things am am not allowed to generally make suggestions in then take it to the council chambers. Also I still yet to see a core design reason to give amarr a side arm. The original iteration comes off as a just because kind of thinking that has plagued the rest of dust 514. I can grantee you that had amarr logistics had not been originally designed with qwith a side arm not a single one of you would suggest adding it. Also eve diction is an excessively poor defense. On average amarr have the fewest guns. This is to lower reactor stress but they hit pretty darn hard out of the box such as the tacyons beams. Minmatar have the most guns on average. "reporting for derailment", haha this is your CPM!
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 96	Posted - 2015.04.21 22:59:00 - [62] - Quote Koldy Lyte Marven wrote: Seriously... please give me a constructive answer... read the description of each logi suit and for that matter all of the suits
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19359	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:00:00 - [63] - Quote Sicerly Yaw wrote: Koldy Lyte Marven wrote: Seriously... please give me a constructive answer... read the description of each logi suit and for that matter all of the suits Lore does not dictate game design. Lore is more likely to change if it wherent so expensive. I mean they should all be plasma rifles by now. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 130	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:08:00 - [64] - Quote I will say one nice perk of the Amarr Logi is that you can run a AV main weapon, and have a SMG or something as a sidearm. But now that we have Commando's, it's not exactly needed either. But as to why Amarr Logi's have a sidearm? A few other's have posted how it came to be, I can't really say the reasoning why though. Logi's ideally shouldn't need a main light weapon, since they should be running with a squad IMO.
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 542	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:08:00 - [65] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Reporting for derailment. If you want to be crass about things am am not allowed to generally make suggestions in then take it to the council chambers. Also I still yet to see a core design reason to give amarr a side arm. The original iteration comes off as a just because kind of thinking that has plagued the rest of dust 514. I can grantee you that had amarr logistics had not been originally designed with qwith a side arm not a single one of you would suggest adding it. Also eve diction is an excessively poor defense. On average amarr have the fewest guns. This is to lower reactor stress but they hit pretty darn hard out of the box such as the tacyons beams. Minmatar have the most guns on average. I do not mean to say that you can not make suggestions but you constantly go around lobbying for things meanwhile presenting yourself as having almost no interest in what other people in the game think. Obviously I can not speak for what happens behind closed doors. As for this idea that the Amarr logi needs its side arm snatched away I really do not get it besides people being mad that they do not have one on their logi. The Amarr has less equipment, moves slower, gets crap for a bonus, and has less fitting ability if you run it with a full set of proto equipment. In real application on that battle field what bonus it does hang on to while still alive leaves it bare defensively as I pointed out in my previous post. If this is not enough to balance out having a sidearm I do not know what is. Even with the Amarr logi having a sidearm any scout makes a far better logi thanks to what a crap suit it is. Logis as a whole need to be totally reworked and if the Amarr loses its sidearm in favor of actually having meaning next to other logis the GREAT. I have listed off everything that puts the Amarr logi in the background to almost every other suit so lets see you give one good reason that it should not have a sidearm other than "O the others dont have it"
hold that Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 776	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:23:00 - [66] - Quote how do logis need to be reworked? the only problem is that cal and amarr logis need to run proto to be effective or = in use to their gal/min counterparts. besides that every logi but the cal logi is near perfect. ask the people who have been logi mains for 2+ years. this is coming from someone who has proto in all 4 logis and PCs. the best fix for the cal logi would be to put the proto hives amount carried in line with advanced and basic, why this hasn't happened after two months is beyond me. also, to the non-logis and non-logi PC players talking about stripping them of their weps and grenades: lmao
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Unit Pwnycorn 3109	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:25:00 - [67] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I have consistently asked this to be fixed but the logis keep protesting. Inversely they do not want any other logis to have a sidearm which makes me think there is something amiss with the class generally. What is this all about? The Amarr logi design is to be a "combat logi", it's pretty balanced: Amarr layout is 3H, 4L, 3E, P, S Minmatar layout is 4H, 4L, 4E, P If other logis would get a secondary it would become underpowered Guinea Dust Bunnies are watching you, CCP Rouge.
JIMvc2 Consolidated Dust 927	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:29:00 - [68] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Logis don't need a sidearm. Anyone attempting to throw the "Amarr are the combat logi" argument at you needs to walk on off. Logis are not a combat anything. They are a support role and should be treated as such. Remove the sidearm from the Amarr logi, and while you are at it, give them all logis a small buff to eHP and maybe walk speed (but not sprint). -Sincerely, a diehard fan of the Amarr dropsuits I'm sorry but CCP cannot remove the side arm from the Templar Logi Amarr = No I will not allow it. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! Die YOU SHADOW BEING IN THE DARK!!!
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1010	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:34:00 - [69] - Quote Amarr logi has a sidearm because reasons. CalLogi is awesome but would be better with a sidearm also for reasons. Logis in general need some things, most of them are detailed in the Logistics/Support CPM thread Cross Atu started, gimme a minute and I'll find it and get it onto page 1 Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1010	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:37:00 - [70] - Quote btw, this whole "Logis don't need weapons" thing is frikin ********. I realize that works in EVE but in EVE blobs are huge, so when in DUST I can surround myself with 300 friendly teammates to protect me we can consider revisiting whether or not Logis "need" weapons. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR

Patrick57 9927	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:41:00 - [71] - Quote it's because the amarr logi sucks overall, so it needs something to help balance it out
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19359	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:32:00 - [72] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: it's because the amarr logi sucks overall, so it needs something to help balance it out Find a different excuse. The statement is a symptom not the cure. The effect of a cause called "just because" There is no core reason for the sidearm outlier CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Forced Death Corrosive Synergy Rise Of Legion. 651	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:35:00 - [73] - Quote I thought that Amarr Logi at STD level only have two eq. slots to make up for sidearm? STD Active Scanner with Scan Profile of 46db too OP
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9689	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:51:00 - [74] - Quote I'm just pissed that they get two equipment slots at standard. How is that a logi? Makes running Amarr logi in pubs painful. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
DiablosMajora 114	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:11:00 - [75] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Gallente are high speed battering rams. Caldari are archers Amarr are knights on foot. Minmatar are vikings who pillage your village before your army shows up to deal with them. I like this analogy. Any hope for a role rebalance across suits in the near future? Prepare your angus
DaemonVok Axis of Chaos 21	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:30:00 - [76] - Quote Koldy Lyte Marven wrote: Seriously... please give me a constructive answer... It is countered by being the only logical not only to start with two equipment slots, but also to never gain 4. It is also the only logical not to have a beneficial racial weapon unique to the class, scrambler and lasers heat up too much so the sidearm was meant to help balance it's suck Ness. It's is not designed to actually run reps. It's designed to actually equip more than one type of link and many an injector or ammo and join the combat.
RayRay James Titans of Phoenix RUST415 1001	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:13:00 - [77] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I have consistently asked this to be fixed but the logis keep protesting. Inversely they do not want any other logis to have a sidearm which makes me think there is something amiss with the class generally. I do not mean to derail the thread but this is why CPM stands to be a flawed system. You have now openly stated that you are lobbying for something AGAINST what the community is saying. Almost no one says anything about this and obviously CCP has even accepted that there is not a problem but you continue to push your agenda with little to no backing from the community which you are suppose to represent. OP asked a simple question and never even said there was actually a problem with it himself and you just used his thread and a sounding board to attempt to push your agenda. Not only that you could not even state what the problem is. How about instead of bickering over what you feel is an imbalance you do what you were elected to do and try to get some community feedback on what needs to be done to balance all logis with the rest of the field. This is what the rest of the CPM are doing. They not only present them self as being passionate about the game but passionate about what the community wants to see. Reporting for derailment. If you want to be crass about things am am not allowed to generally make suggestions in then take it to the council chambers. Also I still yet to see a core design reason to give amarr a side arm. The original iteration comes off as a just because kind of thinking that has plagued the rest of dust 514. I can grantee you that had amarr logistics had not been originally designed with qwith a side arm not a single one of you would suggest adding it. Also eve diction is an excessively poor defense. On average amarr have the fewest guns. This is to lower reactor stress but they hit pretty darn hard out of the box such as the tacyons beams. Minmatar have the most guns on average. Gallente have drones wink, wink, nudge nudge ;)
P14GU3 UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E 1455	Posted - 2015.04.22 03:41:00 - [78] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I have consistently asked this to be fixed but the logis keep protesting. Inversely they do not want any other logis to have a sidearm which makes me think there is something amiss with the class generally. This simply is not true. Go back to the last rattatti discussion about the amarr logi and you will see many of us said the Cal-logi should also get the sidearm since it also has the 3 eq slot layout. It was all but a sure thing by the end of the discussion, and I was really surprised to see it didnt happen. The min logi is considered the most to be a "true-logi," and is the last logi that would ever recieve a sidearm. Once again IWS chimes in on things he knows nothing about... 'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 792	Posted - 2015.04.22 05:02:00 - [79] - Quote If you've seen the scrambler rifle in action, then you know why.... "Anybody order chaos?"
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 356	Posted - 2015.04.22 16:57:00 - [80] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Patrick57 wrote: it's because the amarr logi sucks overall, so it needs something to help balance it out Find a different excuse. The statement is a symptom not the cure. The effect of a cause called "just because" There is no core reason for the sidearm outlier Just look at each of the suits at proto. Amarr has the LEAST amount of slots, and equipment. 10 total, just for 1 side arm. (3H, 4L, 3E) Cal has the most slots (5H, 4L) but it's offset by the low resources and low equipment. (5H, 4L, 3E) Gal is similar to Cal, gives up a high slot for 4 equipment. (3H, 5L, 4E) Min is balanced all around. (4H, 4L, 4E) In the end, amarr is weaker than all the others just for a sidearm. To give all logi's a sidearm, it's just a step you shouldn't take. The ADS tourney! Join today!

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19363	Posted - 2015.04.22 17:40:00 - [81] - Quote Shamarskii Simon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Patrick57 wrote: it's because the amarr logi sucks overall, so it needs something to help balance it out Find a different excuse. The statement is a symptom not the cure. The effect of a cause called "just because" There is no core reason for the sidearm outlier Just look at each of the suits at proto. Amarr has the LEAST amount of slots, and equipment. 10 total, just for 1 side arm. (3H, 4L, 3E) Cal has the most slots (5H, 4L) but it's offset by the low resources and low equipment. (5H, 4L, 3E) Gal is similar to Cal, gives up a high slot for 4 equipment. (3H, 5L, 4E) Min is balanced all around. (4H, 4L, 4E) In the end, amarr is weaker than all the others just for a sidearm. To give all logi's a sidearm, it's just a step you shouldn't take; unnecessary stress Why should amarr have the least amount of slots? there no practical core reason for it. Hp is still freakishly low; speed is slow; equipment not worthwhile on it. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 356	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:19:00 - [82] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Shamarskii Simon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Patrick57 wrote: it's because the amarr logi sucks overall, so it needs something to help balance it out Find a different excuse. The statement is a symptom not the cure. The effect of a cause called "just because" There is no core reason for the sidearm outlier Just look at each of the suits at proto. Amarr has the LEAST amount of slots, and equipment. 10 total, just for 1 side arm. (3H, 4L, 3E) Cal has the most slots (5H, 4L) but it's offset by the low resources and low equipment. (5H, 4L, 3E) Gal is similar to Cal, gives up a high slot for 4 equipment. (3H, 5L, 4E) Min is balanced all around. (4H, 4L, 4E) In the end, amarr is weaker than all the others just for a sidearm. To give all logi's a sidearm, it's just a step you shouldn't take; unnecessary stress Why should amarr have the least amount of slots? there no practical core reason for it. Hp is still freakishly low; speed is slow; equipment not worthwhile on it. So, if it has freakishly low eHP, whats wrong with a sidearm? You also say something is amiss with it since people say don't take away the sidearm. But... Hmm... Freakishly low eHP, low number of slots, low number of equipment... And they want it? What's really the problem? They'll die before they use it annndd if they want to use that as the balancer then... Oh well. Leave them be. Ama gets a sidearm, great. Cal gets most modules, great. Gal gets most low slots and 4 equip, great. Min gets all round balance, great Ight, tell me exactly what's wrong with ama having a sidearm and let's discuss. The ADS tourney! Join today!
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1429	Posted - 2015.04.22 20:20:00 - [83] - Quote It seems that there are 3 definitive positions here. Amarr logi doesnt need a sidearm because its not fair to the other kids, Amarr logi is fine...it underperforms as a logi and a combat suit leave it be, and IDGAF do whatever. The 3rd being non logi, and myself.... 2nd being Amarr logi 1st being all the rest of the players skilled even remotely into any logi suit. I'm just curious as to why? Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 791	Posted - 2015.04.22 20:41:00 - [84] - Quote Koldy Lyte Marven wrote: Seriously... please give me a constructive answer... During the great slot rebalancing of 2014 (2013? - I forget) all other classes were balanced as to slot layout. The logistics class was put in the backlog of things to come around to balance. The community could not come to a consensus on how to balance all the logis as a group. Though many viable options were presented. Since that time there have been several constructive Logistics Balancing threads and many attempts by the logi community and the CPMs Cross Atu, Sir Manboy, and almost CPM Pokey Dravon - along with many strong Logibros - to bring balance to the class and each race. Slot count, slot progression, side arms, bonuses and many other statistics are debated. CCP has yet to return comments, present a plan, or dictate what the changes will be. CPM's communication is relied upon to assure this small community that the dev's are aware of the situation. As to a fix... there is no telling when or what it will be. The Amarr sidearm was an outlier in the beginning and the price was a Low slot and and Equipment slot. The price is too high, and the arguments that with only 2EQ at standard level mean that any scout is basically a better logi as the bonus is not that great (as has been laid out) and speed tanking proves better than raw HP in many cases. As Time went on and Bandwidth was introduced a classification of logis as Active and Defending logi types came into play with Caldari and Amarr being the defenders.... we know all this. BASICALLY - Amarrr started with a sidearm to be an Assault/Logi Hybrid to have the all drawbacks of being a logi while having the benefit of 1 more equipment slot than the assault (2 at ADV and PRO). We've been awaiting a balancing of Logis for 2+ years and it has yet to take place. That is way the Amarr has a sidearm. If it will keep it or if other Logis will get it is unknown. But that is the why. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6358	Posted - 2015.04.22 20:48:00 - [85] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: CPM Pokey Dravon A bit of prognostication there, but I too support Pokey Dravon for CPM2. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 547	Posted - 2015.04.22 20:48:00 - [86] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: They have it because generic homogenized classes are the antithesis of interesting. Unfortunately, homogenized classes are precisely what people seem to want. Never mind that each race is its own separate entity. People want a one-size fits all mentality. That mentality screwed over Sentinels and interesting class interplay. That mentality will probably screw over Logistics, too. Because case-by-case balancing and ideas would be too interesting, require more thought for balancing, and give the game more depth. Better simplify things to the point of generic-ness! HOMOGENIZED: It's not just for Milk!!!!! May as well accept this now. We see what kind of arguing spawns from having a bit of uniqueness even when it comes at great cost. Lets just make all the logis cookie cutters of each other call it balanced and move on.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 360	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:09:00 - [87] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: They have it because generic homogenized classes are the antithesis of interesting. Unfortunately, homogenized classes are precisely what people seem to want. Never mind that each race is its own separate entity. People want a one-size fits all mentality. That mentality screwed over Sentinels and interesting class interplay. That mentality will probably screw over Logistics, too. Because case-by-case balancing and ideas would be too interesting, require more thought for balancing, and give the game more depth. Better simplify things to the point of generic-ness! HOMOGENIZED: It's not just for Milk!!!!! May as well accept this now. We see what kind of arguing spawns from having a bit of uniqueness even when it comes at great cost. Lets just make all the logis cookie cutters of each other call it balanced and move on. Tis the modern gamer. Not tryna off topic but . Look at armored core for example. If you played gen 3 or lower, stepping into 4 is like "wtf?" ... I feel you man... Cookies is what the people want The ADS tourney! Join today!
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19368	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:23:00 - [88] - Quote Just call it a medic give it a speed boost shift bonus to repair/revive/respawn and then give the amarr a real logi. Then give everyone else medics. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 6198	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:33:00 - [89] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Just call it a medic give it a speed boost shift bonus to repair/revive/respawn and then give the amarr a real logi. Then give everyone else medics. What do you mean real logi? Just because it has a side arm doesn't automatically not make it a logi. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
P14GU3 UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E 1458	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:47:00 - [90] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Just call it a medic give it a speed boost shift bonus to repair/revive/respawn and then give the amarr a real logi. Then give everyone else medics. All the races already have your "medic." They are called scouts... 'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.



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