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thomas mak
The Nether Dragon
103
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Posted - 2015.04.12 17:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
when ppl started being able to fit more than 1 again.
I am a tanker and a pilot
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5775
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Posted - 2015.04.12 18:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
thomas mak wrote:when ppl started being able to fit more than 1 again.
Started? You realize that vehicles have *always* been able to fit more than one hardener, right?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
480
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Posted - 2015.04.12 22:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5782
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Posted - 2015.04.12 22:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often.
It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9321
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Posted - 2015.04.12 22:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners.
What is the issue then?
Tanks vs AV is not even a thing right now. Not unless you have 4 or more people taking on just 1 tank with 1 pilot.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5782
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Posted - 2015.04.12 22:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. What is the issue then? Tanks vs AV is not even a thing right now. Not unless you have 4 or more people taking on just 1 tank with 1 pilot.
Passive regen being the primary means of HP regeneration. We need active modules.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
480
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 22:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. What is the issue then? Tanks vs AV is not even a thing right now. Not unless you have 4 or more people taking on just 1 tank with 1 pilot.
Actually, there are those who can solo tanks rather effectively. Though my skill level and awareness can get me away, super power Plasma Cannons v my gunnlogi on hopper suits, or MinMandos stacking a ton of damage mods can really put a hurt on the tank.
Of COURSE basic/advanced AV will struggle to keep up with PRO tank, and team work is the way to go.
Also, assault forge guns. Great vs. High Rep armor tanks!
Just a piece of advice for the newer AVbros out there. |
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
480
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 22:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think the Passive HP is just fine. Just need to adjust your tactics to attack us, just as we do when we notice certain AV set-ups. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5782
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Posted - 2015.04.12 22:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:I think the Passive HP is just fine. Just need to adjust your tactics to attack us, just as we do when we notice certain AV set-ups.
Passive regen is fine, but not as a primary means of regen. I'm fine with low amounts of constant HP regeneration, but Armor Repairers are problematic, particularly the Heavy ones.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
480
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 22:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:I think the Passive HP is just fine. Just need to adjust your tactics to attack us, just as we do when we notice certain AV set-ups. Passive regen is fine, but not as a primary means of regen. I'm fine with low amounts of constant HP regeneration, but Armor Repairers are problematic, particularly the Heavy ones.
Not really.
The problem with having High repair is either -
Sacrifice health
or
Sacrifice hardener
BOTH are vulnerable to fast, high alpha weaponry.
Assault Forge Gun would be one.
Proto-level AV nade spam.
Remote/Proxis
Jihad Jeep.
Many, many options.
Don't use SLOW damage on a repper, armor tank, such as swarms, unless you are in group.
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
480
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Posted - 2015.04.12 22:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
But often the gear giving the high hp regen is proto level, and SHOULD be hard for an AV to solo mindlessly.
The lower tier reppers do NOT keep up well with AV onslaught of any kind. Just putting that out there. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5784
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 22:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV.
I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9321
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 22:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV.
I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now.
Thank you.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
480
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Posted - 2015.04.12 22:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV.
I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. Thank you.
But the problem is, if he wants to keep perma-hardener, he can only keep one up at a time, with long cool downs. If he pops both of them, he WILL have periods of vulnerability. But with ONE hardener up, again, HIGH Alpha AV is the way to counter them. Don't bring slow swarms, bring Proto Assault Forge Gun, bring Lai Dai Grenades, and lay traps upon the ground. Most of those super repper/ hardener tanks do NOT run scans, so clump of Proximities will send them to hell in a fiery blaze of glory. |
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
480
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 22:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank. |
One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9322
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 22:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank.
That is an extreme exaggeration.
I want a balanced game, and certain parts of it are simply not balanced right now.
Perhaps things will be better when all the tank variants come in, but as of now the meta reminds me of 1.7 when tanks had no counter other than tanks.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
529
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 22:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV.
I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now.
That's not going to solve the problem though, it will make it worse as tanks will immediately withdraw back to the redline to wait out the cooldown.
The solution is to keep the reps but stagger the rate, I.E. every 5 secs instead of 1
ADS Ramming Revenge!
Plasma Cannon Rampage
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
18193
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 23:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Juno Tristan wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV.
I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. That's not going to solve the problem though, it will make it worse as tanks will immediately withdraw back to the redline to wait out the cooldown. The solution is to keep the reps but stagger the rate, I.E. every 5 secs instead of 1
At that point they might as well be Actives since most tankers do that anyway as their entire EHP value is in their hardeners and not in their plating.
You simple cannot stop this kind of behaviour since without your modules readied all you are is a really expensive red diamond that nobody likes.
GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥
-The Nameless City
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8029
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 23:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:I think the Passive HP is just fine. Just need to adjust your tactics to attack us, just as we do when we notice certain AV set-ups. Passive regen is fine, but not as a primary means of regen. I'm fine with low amounts of constant HP regeneration, but Armor Repairers are problematic, particularly the Heavy ones. Not really. The problem with having High repair is either - Sacrifice health or Sacrifice hardener BOTH are vulnerable to fast, high alpha weaponry. Assault Forge Gun would be one. Proto-level AV nade spam. Remote/Proxis Jihad Jeep. Many, many options. Don't use SLOW damage on a repper, armor tank, such as swarms, unless you are in group.
It's very simple. dual hardened, dual repped madrugars drop a IAFG into negative damage inflicted after shot 4. I.E. a constant firing IAFG will never break a madrugar past 80% armor, and weakspot hits won't kill a madrugar before reload. The math renders it physically impossible.
Two IAFGs still cannot output enough damage to kill a current madrugar in 8 shots and it will be above 70% armor (roughly) before they finish reloading.
There is no "learning to attack passive rep tanks" under the current method. It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for a solo AV gunner to kill an HAV under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE without abusive mechanics. or doing incredibly stupid sh*t that requires the HAV driver to be goddamn moron.
I do not exaggerate.
The only HAV drivers who die let shots hit their weakspot more than once with hardeners down.
The current madrugar meta is impossible for another player to beat without three to one odds without abusing triple AV nades, and myofibril stacking shenanigans, or a JLAV loaded with ten REs.
Don't start feeding anyone that sh*t about how madrugars are fine. They are the opposite of "fine."
And the gunnlogis shouldn't have been nerfed on fittings. It was unnecessary.
AV
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
482
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 00:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
It is NOT impossible to kill a super repping armor tank.
It is possible to solo it with ALL of my aforementioned methods.
Proto tanks WILL be tough to kill for Advanced and Lower,
if you aren't running a power AFG, you are going to have
a rough time. If you aren't putting traps down, you will
have a hard time.
1.4 million tank is SUPPOSED to be hard to take with ADV and lower AV and
part of our role on point is to FORCE people to switch to AV to suppress/kill us.
What do you want? To remove us entirely?
If you are fighting a double hardener tank, they usually have NO scans, so mine traps work even
better.
If tank is engaged on the point, bring out a JLAV and slam into his side.
If you have elevation, PROTO assault forge gun, and use teamwork.
3 or so Proto AV makes easy meal of even a fast rep tank with hardeners. |
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
482
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Posted - 2015.04.13 00:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Again its a PROTO tank, not a BASIC, so adjust as tankers have had to adjust to AV buffs. |
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
482
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 00:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
And, if push comes to shove, I recommend have a tough Missile Tank fitting with damage mods as last resort.
One cannot underestimate in the current meta the power of a proto-missile damage mod madrugar fit being able to slam damage on blaster/rail madrugars with a fierceness. |
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
482
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 00:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
But I guess setting up traps, getting the high ground, and working as a team to take down a 1.4 mil ISK vehicle with millions upon millions of SP invested is just too hard. They must be able to OHKO tanks with any random MLT AV fit they have SOLO with little to no thought. They want tanks to be relegated to having even less purpose than they have now, and they want all Vehicle people bankrupt from the constant losses. They want to force more tankers into the redline with little payout and high risk even after the years of SP investment. This Call of Duty 514 and the infantry will not be satisfied til vehicles are removed to free up infantry assets. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
18196
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 00:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:It is NOT impossible to kill a super repping armor tank.
It is possible to solo it with ALL of my aforementioned methods.
Proto tanks WILL be tough to kill for Advanced and Lower,
if you aren't running a power AFG, you are going to have
a rough time. If you aren't putting traps down, you will
have a hard time.
1.4 million tank is SUPPOSED to be hard to take with ADV and lower AV and
part of our role on point is to FORCE people to switch to AV to suppress/kill us.
What do you want? To remove us entirely?
If you are fighting a double hardener tank, they usually have NO scans, so mine traps work even
better.
If tank is engaged on the point, bring out a JLAV and slam into his side.
If you have elevation, PROTO assault forge gun, and use teamwork.
3 or so Proto AV makes easy meal of even a fast rep tank with hardeners.
If the math says it's impossible....it usually is.
GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥
-The Nameless City
|
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
482
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 00:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:It is NOT impossible to kill a super repping armor tank.
It is possible to solo it with ALL of my aforementioned methods.
Proto tanks WILL be tough to kill for Advanced and Lower,
if you aren't running a power AFG, you are going to have
a rough time. If you aren't putting traps down, you will
have a hard time.
1.4 million tank is SUPPOSED to be hard to take with ADV and lower AV and
part of our role on point is to FORCE people to switch to AV to suppress/kill us.
What do you want? To remove us entirely?
If you are fighting a double hardener tank, they usually have NO scans, so mine traps work even
better.
If tank is engaged on the point, bring out a JLAV and slam into his side.
If you have elevation, PROTO assault forge gun, and use teamwork.
3 or so Proto AV makes easy meal of even a fast rep tank with hardeners. If the math says it's impossible....it usually is.
What the math says and what the gameplay actually says are two different things.
Gameplay says AFG, Proto AV nades, and explosives do the trick. If you can't solo bring in more, and maybe a tank if you want a sure-kill. |
nelo kazuma
1.U.P
76
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 01:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners.
Your right its not hardeners its both that and the ability to rep straight through damage without a damage threshold that stops regen like on shield vehichles. Id be ok with tanks if reps were turned back to an active module with a large wait time. Ive seen tanks use one hardener almost endlessly and they popped second against if things got to rough which in my opinion should not be possible. |
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
482
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 01:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
nelo kazuma wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Multi-hardeners are what allow a tank to actually engage in the open field for long-ish periods of time when under heavy AV fire. If one did not have them, well, many tanks would be grassed by focused AV far more often. It's just a product of people who don't understand vehicles or the history behind them, insisting that hardeners are the problem, when hardeners at this point are not all that different from hardeners in the past. Previously hardeners were 25% for armor +10% for skills (~35% total) and shield hardeners were 30% with another 10% from skills (~40% total). We've always been able to fit multiple hardeners, and still can. If an issue with vehicle balance exists, it's not because of the hardeners. Your right its not hardeners its both that and the ability to rep straight through damage without a damage threshold that stops regen like on shield vehichles. Id be ok with tanks if reps were turned back to an active module with a large wait time. Ive seen tanks use one hardener almost endlessly and they popped second against if things got to rough which in my opinion should not be possible.
So what you are saying is that tanks should be easy mode to kill in tough situations?
A guaranteed kill? If you can't see the blaring weakness on a ******* madrugar, (proto AFG, high explosives, mine traps, JLAV), that is on YOU! If you can't use teamwork to take one down, that is on YOU, not the driver. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5784
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 01:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank.
And when you say "us" you're also talking about me. Been using HAVs since closed beta, I know very well how they work, and use them to this day. And I'm telling you that I've been running the dual hardener, dual rep fit and I can tell you that it's stupid easy to play as, and I've yet to die in that fit. While that is anecdotal, the math also supports that the fit is simply too effective.
Is it possible to kill to kill that fit? Yes. But the conditions needed to make that happen are far too specific for it to be considered balanced. The fact remains that active reps have existed in the past and the gameplay itself was far more balanced at the time. And as Juno brought up, active reps cycled every 3 seconds instead of every 1 second like they current do.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
482
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 01:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank. And when you say "us" you're also talking about me. Been using HAVs since closed beta, I know very well how they work, and use them to this day. And I'm telling you that I've been running the dual hardener, dual rep fit and I can tell you that it's stupid easy to play as, and I've yet to die in that fit. While that is anecdotal, the math also supports that the fit is simply too effective. Is it possible to kill to kill that fit? Yes. But the conditions needed to make that happen are far too specific for it to be considered balanced. The fact remains that active reps have existed in the past and the gameplay itself was far more balanced at the time. And as Juno brought up, active reps cycled every 3 seconds instead of every 1 second like they current do.
But it doesn't. I've run the fit too. And I am tell you its WEAKNESSES.
It is NOT impossible to kill by any means.
It IS very tough, but not impossible to kill
if you use teamwork to down it.
It is also a Proto-level tank and should not
be easy mode for Advanced and lower. |
Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
482
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 01:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
Also, if you do bust both hardeners, you WILL have to disengage quickly, because when hardeners down on the fit, due to lack of raw base EHP, you pop easily to any form of AV. Even with both hardeners, JLAVs will OHKO, and Proto AFGs.
How many times do I need to open people's eyes?
Proto AFGs make short work of that fit!!! |
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2235
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:31:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mary, I'm not trying to imply anything (that's a lie, just so you know) but your posts seem very reminiscent of the posts of someone else during the period between 1.7 and Hotfix Alpha.
I see blueberries
Rated [TV-MA]
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3164
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:thomas mak wrote:when ppl started being able to fit more than 1 again. Started? You realize that vehicles have *always* been able to fit more than one hardener, right?
lol shows how much you know.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5785
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:
But it doesn't. I've run the fit too. And I am tell you its WEAKNESSES.
It is NOT impossible to kill by any means.
It IS very tough, but not impossible to kill
if you use teamwork to down it.
It is also a Proto-level tank and should not
be easy mode for Advanced and lower.
And I'll say again, just because it is possible to kill something, does not innately mean it is balanced. The level of difficulty needed to do so is simply too high in my opinion. It is possible to kill, as you said, but the amount of skill needed to survive in that fit is too low.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3164
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 01:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Mary, I'm not trying to imply anything (that's a lie, just so you know) but your posts seem very reminiscent of the posts of someone else during the period between 1.7 and Hotfix Alpha.
Hi 
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3164
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:
How many times do I need to open people's eyes?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
494
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
Not saying it isn't somewhat easy to run v. infantry who are disorganized, but organized AV will kill it, and the driver will lose money. |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3166
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 01:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank. And when you say "us" you're also talking about me. Been using HAVs since closed beta, I know very well how they work, and use them to this day. And I'm telling you that I've been running the dual hardener, dual rep fit and I can tell you that it's stupid easy to play as, and I've yet to die in that fit. While that is anecdotal, the math also supports that the fit is simply too effective. Is it possible to kill to kill that fit? Yes. But the conditions needed to make that happen are far too specific for it to be considered balanced. The fact remains that active reps have existed in the past and the gameplay itself was far more balanced at the time. And as Juno brought up, active reps cycled every 3 seconds instead of every 1 second like they current do.
You haven't been using tanks, because everything you say says "I have no idea what I'm talking about."
"Why were tanks in Chrome better?"
That told me everything I needed to know about your "experience," and that is that you don't have any.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
494
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:
How many times do I need to open people's eyes?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Someone who gets it!
They want it to be easy-mode, sure-kill on a proto-tank. |
Gabriel Ceja
Ready to Play
101
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:51:00 -
[39] - Quote
When it comes to armor reps being the problem I have to disagree with you pokey because while these passive armor reps may be part of the problem with the armor tanks it's the multiple hardeners that is the core of this imbalance among tanks.
So yes you have made some good points on the armor reps being a problem as well and I wouldn't mind active armor reps but the hardeners are the main issue here or did everyone forget about the "invincible" shield tanks when they were stacking hardeners.
You can't say that armor reps were a problem there and if you bring up the shield regen that would only further my point as the only reason that shield tanks were even able to regen through damage was because the multiple hardeners made it so that the damage received wasn't high enough to stop the shield regen and so before attacking armor reps the focus should be on the greater cause of imbalance here.
Seriously though something has to be done here because some of these tank battles are getting ridiculous just turning into who brought more hardeners or whose hardeners are gonna give out first.
"Throw on the flux capacitor."
activates fuel injector
"WOOOOOO!!!"
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1005
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
its an odd thing with double hardeners.
You make a lap of the map, turn them on if you run into to trouble and you have a 36 second window or more to get out of dodge. When your hardeners cant protrect you, hiding in the redline will. Then you leave the redline when your hardernes are back up, rinse and repeat.
You could make the case, 'tanks are vulnerable when hardener down' but no tanker is dumb enogh to stick about around without hardeners.
If the red line was impossible to re-enter, there would be far fewer double hardened tanks out there, they would get hit on cooldown and takers would have to be smart wbout how and when they use hardeners and where to hide untill the cooldown is over.
But because there's a magic line in the sand saying 'you cannot enter because reasons' thats as far as the tactics for alot of players go.
tl;dr alternate between double hardeners and the redline. its the tank version of easymode.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Mary Sedillo
Eternal Beings
494
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:54:00 -
[41] - Quote
Does NOBODY here run with a team tank? Does NOBODY here have buddies with AFGs?
These super repping tanks go down easy when you bully rush them and have buddies hop out and Lai Dai them as you pound.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3166
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Posted - 2015.04.13 01:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:But I guess setting up traps, getting the high ground, and working as a team to take down a 1.4 mil ISK vehicle with millions upon millions of SP invested is just too hard. They must be able to OHKO tanks with any random MLT AV fit they have SOLO with little to no thought. They want tanks to be relegated to having even less purpose than they have now, and they want all Vehicle people bankrupt from the constant losses. They want to force more tankers into the redline with little payout and high risk even after the years of SP investment. This Call of Duty 514 and the infantry will not be satisfied til vehicles are removed to free up infantry assets.
Of course using teamwork isn't fair. Of course, someone with a few mil SP into suits and AV combined with a suit totaling 80k ISK should easily be able to take down my 60mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank. That's fair, donchaknow.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Operative 1174 Uuali
Y.A.M.A.H
592
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Posted - 2015.04.13 02:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank.
Yep, AV will forever cry. What TANKOPHOBES don't understand is that if AV is buffed around one guy takig out a tank you will still inevitably get two or more doing AV anyway. In which case tanks will be way too easy to take out to even be playable.
Death is a serious businessGǪ So is running a shoddy, half-baked game company.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3166
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Posted - 2015.04.13 02:04:00 -
[44] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:One Eyed King wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV.
I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. Thank you. But the problem is, if he wants to keep perma-hardener, he can only keep one up at a time, with long cool downs. If he pops both of them, he WILL have periods of vulnerability. But with ONE hardener up, again, HIGH Alpha AV is the way to counter them. Don't bring slow swarms, bring Proto Assault Forge Gun, bring Lai Dai Grenades, and lay traps upon the ground. Most of those super repper/ hardener tanks do NOT run scans, so clump of Proximities will send them to hell in a fiery blaze of glory.
But don't you see? Traps are too hard to figure out.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5786
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Posted - 2015.04.13 02:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
You haven't been using tanks, because everything you say says "I have no idea what I'm talking about."
"Why were tanks in Chrome better?"
That told me everything I needed to know about your "experience," and that is that you don't have any.
Because I wanted your personal opinion on why you felt they were better? Because I asked for your detailed feedback? Get over yourself kiddo.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9326
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Posted - 2015.04.13 02:08:00 -
[46] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:One Eyed King wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV.
I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. Thank you. But the problem is, if he wants to keep perma-hardener, he can only keep one up at a time, with long cool downs. If he pops both of them, he WILL have periods of vulnerability. But with ONE hardener up, again, HIGH Alpha AV is the way to counter them. Don't bring slow swarms, bring Proto Assault Forge Gun, bring Lai Dai Grenades, and lay traps upon the ground. Most of those super repper/ hardener tanks do NOT run scans, so clump of Proximities will send them to hell in a fiery blaze of glory. But don't you see? Traps are too hard to figure out.
Yes, because the only way AV should be effective is when tanks mistakenly wander into a trap.
Luck should be the only skill AV are required to have, and anything else they should be impotent.
FYO Mary, the fact that Spkr is the only one that supports you should tell you how untenable your arguments are.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2237
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Posted - 2015.04.13 04:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
Of course using teamwork isn't fair. Of course, someone with a few mil SP into suits and AV combined with a suit totaling 80k ISK should easily be able to take down my 60mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank. That's fair, donchaknow.
As fair as a guy in a militia suit taking down another in a proto suit. It happens, people get over it.
Spkr4theDead wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Mary, I'm not trying to imply anything (that's a lie, just so you know) but your posts seem very reminiscent of the posts of someone else during the period between 1.7 and Hotfix Alpha. Hi
I really hate it when your so likeable. It makes me feel so dirty.
I see blueberries
Rated [TV-MA]
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3167
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Posted - 2015.04.13 04:46:00 -
[48] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:Does NOBODY here run with a team tank? Does NOBODY here have buddies with AFGs?
These super repping tanks go down easy when you bully rush them and have buddies hop out and Lai Dai them as you pound.
I was telling these people to squad with a dedicated pilot before 1.7 was deployed, but did any of them listen? Nooooooooooo, none of them listened. Everything was changed from Chrome to Uprising, 1.0 to 1.7, then the dark ages of 1.8, and now they're finally, finally seeing the light again.
Every single vehicle "rework," and I verrrrrrrrry very loosely mean rework, has been brought about by people who cannot think complaining that they can't solo a tank. Not everybody has recording capability, but it would certainly help if those that do record themselves either in a tank, or trying to destroy one using AV.
Those using AV will do one of two things:
1. Attempt to solo it with added-on voiceover, complaining about how they cannot do it alone, and that it shouldn't require teamwork.
2. Get an entire squad after a single tank, then triumphantly get on here posting the video, saying how easy it was to take out that tank.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3167
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Posted - 2015.04.13 04:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
You haven't been using tanks, because everything you say says "I have no idea what I'm talking about."
"Why were tanks in Chrome better?"
That told me everything I needed to know about your "experience," and that is that you don't have any.
Because I wanted your personal opinion on why you felt they were better? Because I asked for your detailed feedback? I was trying to have an interest in your point of view. I knew they were better back then, we actually AGREE ON THAT, but because I disagree with you on other things you immediately try to twist the meaning of a question I presented to you in an attempt to discredit my experience even though most of the tanking community turns and laughs at you for your extreme and often baseless claims. Get over yourself kiddo.
I'm extreme for not compromising?
You can agree with me all you want, but since you asked the question in the first place, you're just nodding your head to placate me in a symbolic attempt to "agree" with me.
When I did my month of burnout-causing tanking in PC when I joined R*S, I was able to laugh off AV while taking on an enemy tank. That's how it should be, one tank tackling another in a battle of wits.
Tell me any reasons you can think of why that shouldn't be.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3167
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Posted - 2015.04.13 04:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:One Eyed King wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:The issue is that while hardened and repping constantly, it's effectively negating extremely large amounts of incoming DPS which in turn increases it's eHP. The problem is that at proto, dual hardener and dual repped Madrugars can pretty much mindlessly keep up with AV, even proto AV.
I have no issue with reppers being able to negate large amounts of incoming DPS, but by no means should it have zero downtime which is basically what we have now. Thank you. But the problem is, if he wants to keep perma-hardener, he can only keep one up at a time, with long cool downs. If he pops both of them, he WILL have periods of vulnerability. But with ONE hardener up, again, HIGH Alpha AV is the way to counter them. Don't bring slow swarms, bring Proto Assault Forge Gun, bring Lai Dai Grenades, and lay traps upon the ground. Most of those super repper/ hardener tanks do NOT run scans, so clump of Proximities will send them to hell in a fiery blaze of glory. But don't you see? Traps are too hard to figure out. Yes, because the only way AV should be effective is when tanks mistakenly wander into a trap. Luck should be the only skill AV are required to have, and anything else they should be impotent. FYI Mary, the fact that Spkr is the only one that supports you should tell you how untenable your arguments are.
I support Mary because we're pilots. We agree with each other because we have the same playstyle.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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|
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3167
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Posted - 2015.04.13 04:53:00 -
[51] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
Of course using teamwork isn't fair. Of course, someone with a few mil SP into suits and AV combined with a suit totaling 80k ISK should easily be able to take down my 60mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank. That's fair, donchaknow.
As fair as a guy in a militia suit taking down another in a proto suit. It happens, people get over it. For the umpteenth time: when that PRO suit is caught completely unaware, ie at a depot, AFK looking at the map, BPO scout suit/shotgun. Otherwise if the person using the PRO suit isn't completely drunk/high or a dog, they should easily be able to take out that MLT suit.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
|
Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2237
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 04:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
Of course using teamwork isn't fair. Of course, someone with a few mil SP into suits and AV combined with a suit totaling 80k ISK should easily be able to take down my 60mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank. That's fair, donchaknow.
As fair as a guy in a militia suit taking down another in a proto suit. It happens, people get over it. For the umpteenth time: when that PRO suit is caught completely unaware, ie at a depot, AFK looking at the map, BPO scout suit/shotgun. Otherwise if the person using the PRO suit isn't completely drunk/high or a dog, they should easily be able to take out that MLT suit.
The point is our ISK and SP investment doesn't or at the very least shouldn't guarantee a damn thing.
I see blueberries
Rated [TV-MA]
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1930
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 05:07:00 -
[53] - Quote
Operative 1174 Uuali wrote:
Yep, AV will forever cry. What TANKOPHOBES don't understand is that if AV is buffed around one guy takig out a tank you will still inevitably get two or more doing AV anyway. In which case tanks will be way too easy to take out to even be playable.
Hear hear.
THIS is the very essence of V vs AV balancing.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
18202
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Posted - 2015.04.13 05:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
Of course using teamwork isn't fair. Of course, someone with a few mil SP into suits and AV combined with a suit totaling 80k ISK should easily be able to take down my 60mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank. That's fair, donchaknow.
As fair as a guy in a militia suit taking down another in a proto suit. It happens, people get over it. For the umpteenth time: when that PRO suit is caught completely unaware, ie at a depot, AFK looking at the map, BPO scout suit/shotgun. Otherwise if the person using the PRO suit isn't completely drunk/high or a dog, they should easily be able to take out that MLT suit. The point is our ISK and SP investment doesn't or at the very least shouldn't guarantee a damn thing.
Nor does it. However for the cost of the tool the rewards for using it must be within reason.
What is the purpose of a 1,143kk tank existing if its no better or more durable than my basic 291k tank?
Hell I'm already likely to be gambling 70-100x more ISK than the next guy playing this game.
GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥
-The Nameless City
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3167
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Posted - 2015.04.13 06:01:00 -
[55] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
Of course using teamwork isn't fair. Of course, someone with a few mil SP into suits and AV combined with a suit totaling 80k ISK should easily be able to take down my 60mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank. That's fair, donchaknow.
As fair as a guy in a militia suit taking down another in a proto suit. It happens, people get over it. For the umpteenth time: when that PRO suit is caught completely unaware, ie at a depot, AFK looking at the map, BPO scout suit/shotgun. Otherwise if the person using the PRO suit isn't completely drunk/high or a dog, they should easily be able to take out that MLT suit. The point is our ISK and SP investment doesn't or at the very least shouldn't guarantee a damn thing.
A (non-BPO) PRO suit backed up by all core infantry skills with any PRO weapon backed up by all its requisite skills does almost guarantee a kill against someone with minimal SP in core skills and weapons.
Do you really think me in an ADV basic frame Gallente with the Gal rifle can beat a PRO Min assault with a combat rifle? Hit detection aside, basic frame doesn't offer any bonuses, while the Min assault gains extra ammo before having to reload. That's more lead you can shoot at your enemy, which is obvious, which gives you an advantage.
SP does make a difference, there's no reason my 60mil SP into vehicles shouldn't make my tank better than a MLT hull.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5789
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Posted - 2015.04.13 06:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
When I did my month of burnout-causing tanking in PC when I joined R*S, I was able to laugh off AV while taking on an enemy tank. That's how it should be, one tank tackling another in a battle of wits.
Tell me any reasons you can think of why that shouldn't be.
Hate to tell you, but a month of constant PC is not that impressive, nor uncommon. I've done stints of 10+ battles a day for over a month, it's not a big deal which is why I don't whip out my ePeen and brag about it.
And the reason it shouldn't be as you say is because never should the counter to something be itself. This isn't world of tanks, vehicles are not supposed to operate in a vacuum. They're supposed to fight and deal with multiple aspects of the game, vehicles and infantry included. Otherwise if infantry AV is supposed to be "only a deterrent" to vehicles, then should turrets be "only a deterrent" to infantry? Or do you feel you should be able to mostly ignore infantry but be able to easily kill both them and vehicles with an HAV?
Vehicles should be powerful, sure, but to me it seems like you want to be able to basically ignore infantry completely.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8034
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 07:52:00 -
[57] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Vehicles should be powerful, sure, but to me it seems like you want to be able to basically ignore infantry completely.
this has been the core argument made by every post spkr, Takahiro and sedillo have made to date.
It is mathematically impossible for an IAFG to break a double-hahardened, double rep tank.
Even if you nerf the hardeners to 30% shot 9 with an IAFG lands 50% of armor damage to reload. 7 seconds of reload,charge and refire delay means an HAV reps 1340 damage. More than enough to bring it to full armor.
An IAFG has a lifespan of roughly 63 seconds of constant fire on a tank. If it engages with hardeners for 30 seconds and retreats to cover in the last 10 it cannot be killed with an IAFG. The forge gunner wastes 50% of his ammo trying.
2 IAFG can make an HAV think about his options while they are reloading.
Every time someone mentions AV and balance with HAVs the impression I get is that the three aforementioned posters start thinking "Damn them crops sure are getting uppity about harvest day."
The whole tank v tank honor duel is a myth. The whole idea that you're just there to fight other tanks is a lie.
How do I know this?
Because if it was true you'd recall the HAVs as soon as it was evident the enemy wasn't fielding any in response.
What I see is an asston of madrugars rushing into hotspots, blazing away with impunity with dispersion mods, farming infantry, and rushing away before the cooldown on the hardeners hits.
With impunity.
This isn't balance.
Stacking multiple Passive reps doesn't break madrugar balance.
The ability to stack two hardeners doesn't break madrugar balance.
The ability to do both does
The only ways to balance both so there are more options to fight madrugars than other madrugars is a nerf to the hardeners by 10%, OR to cut passive reps in HALF, OR make heavy armor reps active-only.
In all three of these scenarios armor plates become superior options with single hardener single rep unless you are specifically setting up a skirmish build for hit and run.
And revert the shield fitting nerfs.
AV
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3167
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Posted - 2015.04.13 08:47:00 -
[58] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:[
Hate to tell you, but a month of constant PC is not that impressive, nor uncommon. I've done stints of 10+ battles a day for over a month, it's not a big deal which is why I don't whip out my ePeen and brag about it.
That's what I did. Around 10, not considering re-ups. Your all-time kills don't reflect that.
And the reason it shouldn't be as you say is because never should the counter to something be itself.
That's not an explanation to the question "why shouldn't tanks counter tanks."
This isn't world of tanks, vehicles are not supposed to operate in a vacuum.
I never said it was World of Tanks, I never said I wanted it to be World of Tanks. All I see of you people is "Oh, you want the game to be like World of Tanks, don't you."
They're supposed to fight and deal with multiple aspects of the game, vehicles and infantry included.
I have the experience to deal with multiple threats.
Otherwise if infantry AV is supposed to be "only a deterrent" to vehicles, then should turrets be "only a deterrent" to infantry?
It's a tank, it should roll over infantry (nerfed because infantry don't like physics in motion) and beat the hell out of each other. We leave infantry alone to fight each other, where's the problem with that?
Or do you feel you should be able to mostly ignore infantry but be able to easily kill both them and vehicles with an HAV?
I can choose to leave infantry alone to take on a tank. If there's no tank around, I kill infantry. Since I'm a pilot, that's what I like and that's what I do, I can usually kill both with ease. I've been around since closed beta, and have never seen you in a game. Same goes with Breakin. Every time I see a thread about "the old days," his name is never included. Doc DDD, The-Beard, yes. Probably a ton more that there's no way I'll be able to remember.
Vehicles should be powerful, sure, but to me it seems like you want to be able to basically ignore infantry completely.
Like I said above, I can choose to ignore infantry to take on enemy tanks, and I do pretty well at that. Fact is, the better days are behind us, where I can ignore AV to take on a red tank. Now, a packed Lai Dai does ~1800 against unhardened armor. I'm sure you think that's fair and all. Yet we're able to (well, were able to) aim with a blaster, and they were nerfed as a result of our aim. Yes, I want to ignore infantry so I can take on other tanks. Your argument is "I put numbers on paper and they work because I say so," yet I actually have experience playing the game in a tank for a year and a half, and I'm wrong because I won't compromise on vehicles along with pointing out bad ideas and not having any qualms about that. Lovely arguments you guys have.
For the billionth time:
deterrent =/= useless
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3167
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Posted - 2015.04.13 09:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
this has been the core argument made by every post spkr, Takahiro and sedillo have made to date.
Math on spreadsheets =/= gameplay. Play the game to find out.
It is mathematically impossible for an IAFG to break a double-hahardened, double rep tank.
Player's choice to use both at the same time. Nobody is forcing them to. If you happen to come across one, that is, if you play the game, well, that's just too bad, that you can't solo a tank. Maybe you should, I dunno, use something better than the BPO Gallente heavy?
Even if you nerf the hardeners to 30% shot 9 with an IAFG lands 50% of armor damage to reload. 7 seconds of reload,charge and refire delay means an HAV reps 1340 damage. More than enough to bring it to full armor.
Yes, more math, because the game is a completely controlled environment, like a bio-lab, and no calculation is ever wrong.
An IAFG has a lifespan of roughly 63 seconds of constant fire on a tank. If it engages with hardeners for 30 seconds and retreats to cover in the last 10 it cannot be killed with an IAFG. The forge gunner wastes 50% of his ammo trying.
So it's not fair that a vehicle can take cover. Got it.
2 IAFG can make an HAV think about his options while they are reloading.
We've said before to cycle shooters. Constant damage = dead tank. That is, if you can aim. You achieve aim by........ actually playing, rather than putting numbers on paper.
Every time someone mentions AV and balance with HAVs the impression I get is that the three aforementioned posters start thinking "Damn them crops sure are getting uppity about harvest day."
Dunno how the others feel about it, but I'm uncomfortable with living in your mind rent-free. Would you please stop thinking about me so much? I don't swing that way, and my ears already ring enough, due to too much loud music and ear problems. (I bet you'll make some stupid joke about me having been born with mild hearing problems)
The whole tank v tank honor duel is a myth. The whole idea that you're just there to fight other tanks is a lie.
You'd know it if you played the game in a tank.
How do I know this?
You don't know it.
Because if it was true you'd recall the HAVs as soon as it was evident the enemy wasn't fielding any in response.
As if infantry would trade in their 150k ISK PRO suits when they see the other team can field no better than ADV. Oh, that random guy in the back with a Thale's doesn't count on the team with ADV gear.
See how well that works out.
"Wait, we don't have any PRO! Please, I beg you, don't use your PRO against us!"
What I see is an asston of madrugars rushing into hotspots, blazing away with impunity with dispersion mods, farming infantry, and rushing away before the cooldown on the hardeners hits.
You have to play to actually see that.
With impunity.
AV grenades say otherwise. ~1800 each on unhardened armor is a huge kick in the rear, if not an outright death. You'd know that if......... you played the game.
This isn't balance.
Of course it's not balance, because people that don't use tanks complain that they're sooo easy to use, as well as people that think math and math alone on paper can fix all the game's problems when it comes to vehicles. If a test server was opened to us a long time ago, maybe things would've worked out differently.
Stacking multiple Passive reps doesn't break madrugar balance.
That was nerfed pretty hard in 1.8.
The ability to stack two hardeners doesn't break madrugar balance.
At least we have hardeners that work and the fitting capability to put not one, but two on a tank at the same time. Two hardeners for you, two hardeners for you, two hardeners for everybody!
The ability to do both does
Sandbox
Amarr assault and sentinel can put all plates in the lows and all damage mods in the highs. It's not idea, but it can be done. Why is there a sandbox for infantry, but you try to throw all the sand out of our box at every opportunity? You say we can't have what we want because it's not balanced, yet say you should have everything you want and that that is balanced.
The only ways to balance both so there are more options to fight madrugars than other madrugars is a nerf to the hardeners by 10%, OR to cut passive reps in HALF, OR make heavy armor reps active-only.
Ah yeah, another call for another nerf to vehicles. Maybe they should just be removed entirely, LAV, dropships and tanks and finally you can achieve Call of Duty in Space.
In all three of these scenarios armor plates become superior options with single hardener single rep unless you are specifically setting up a skirmish build for hit and run.
We plan ahead, that's so OP. Sorry, but not really sorry I sometimes use an all-purpose fit. I forgot I was supposed to play the game by your rules.
And revert the shield fitting nerfs.
Wow, I actually agree with you on something. Maybe it'll snow in August.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8035
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 10:06:00 -
[60] - Quote
And once again, spkr contributes no evidence, no meaningful input. Merely anecdote and how he thinks it should work.
Because he doesn't need experience.
Rather than contributing meaningfully to the cause of making HAV play fun and meaningful fir all, his message has been that it's unfair if any infantry can kill a tank ever. He's flat out said this in the past and I know where those archives are kept.
and yet claims it should be possible to kill an HAV with AV while claiming that the pre-buff minimum engagement time of 22 or more seconds ( this really was the minimum) was unfair.
and when presented with evidence to the contrary he has NEVER acknowledged anything but his own ridiculous statements that have nothing to back them.
But I will acknowledge one thing spkr. Youve had a good run. It's going to take someone truly magical to beat your troling of the forums. Everyone else buys it but you are the single-most successful troll in DUST history.
12/10.
The bar has been set. Let's see if anyone else can match this feat.
AV
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1931
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Posted - 2015.04.13 13:45:00 -
[61] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
It's very simple. dual hardened, dual repped madrugars drop a IAFG into negative damage inflicted after shot 4. I.E. a constant firing IAFG will never break a madrugar past 80% armor, and weakspot hits won't kill a madrugar before reload. The math renders it physically impossible. A max-skill, double-repped Proto rep madrugar will regen armor at a leisurely 335 damage per second. An IAFG caps out at... I'll go over and say 2200 (actually higher than they can go).
with two hardeners you are mitigating a little over 60% damage. This brings the IAFG at highest potential to...
860 damage (I'm still erring on giving the IAFG more damage than it actually does. Now pay attention)
In the three seconds it takes to fire a IAFG shell, the Madrugar will repair 670 damage out of 860 from the first shell. that's less than 200 net damage.
DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE A FKING PROBLEM HERE???
Two IAFGs still cannot output enough damage to kill a current madrugar in 8 shots and it will be above 70% armor (roughly) before they finish reloading.
There is no "learning to attack passive rep tanks" under the current method. It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for a solo AV gunner to kill an HAV under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE without abusive mechanics. or doing incredibly stupid sh*t that requires the HAV driver to be goddamn moron.
I do not exaggerate.
The only HAV drivers who die let shots hit their weakspot more than once with hardeners down.
The current madrugar meta is impossible for another player to beat without three to one odds without abusing triple AV nades, and myofibril stacking shenanigans, or a JLAV loaded with ten REs.
.
For starters, Madrugars are not quite right at the moment.
However, it is not as terrible as you let it seem by your examples.
Your math checks out ok (except IAFG fires rounds at 2,25 sec interval)
so I agree in that scenario the Maddie cannot be brought down by single AV. I agree that there should be a theoretical possibility.
But it is for the limited time maximum mode for HAV.
For comparison, list kill times for
- one hardener mode (3shot, kill time 4,5s)
- hardener off mode (2shot, kill time 2,25s)
Note that those are for solo max skill IAFG user hitting consequtive hits.
Those times are short. Really short, which means that is is a considerable gambit to bring out 2rep2hard0plate Maddie on the field. That's again the the math speaking.
- While on cooldowns, the said tank is most likely doing nothing at all.
- Now, there's been a claim that tank user will always be in his redline on cooldowns. Also, an assumption that when tank under enemy influence , it has both hardeners always on.
Neither are reality.
- A tank having a meaningful impact on winning game is operating far and has a long contested trip to safe coodowns. This means that he either spends very little time fighting, or is risking being vulnerable on return. A standard practice for experienced AV infantry is to cover the tank escape route.
- Most importantly: the full hardened mode scenario - and math - ignores the importance of opening volley.
The opening shot on stand by mode Maddie drops him down to 500HP.
Then it gets interesting.
IF the tanker knows his salt, isn't shocked, and has enought reaction and dexterity in his fingers, he manages both hardeners on. Then, the 106 net damage of shots 2, 3 and 4 take him and keep him really low but won't kill him. (personal opinion: 3 or especially 4 consequtive hits is a challenging feat and should have it's rewards)
IF the tanker activates only one hardener (possible in high stress situation or in case of server lag when your client gets the being hit info 1 second late of it actually happening)
The tanker pops on shot 2 in 2,25 seconds, although it is very close, only 50 or so excess damage for leftover.
(personal opinion: there is room for player skill, I like it. Network lag can be a deciding factor on near instaboom, I don't like it.)
- No tanker ever is gonna exit their redline in two hardener mode to find enemies. If they activate only one, then they are not really two hardener tanks. If they save hardeners and keep them off until needed, then they are vulnerable.
In the end, it may have been a mistake to rebuff the armor hardeners 30%-->40% among all other madrugar and tanking changes. Still using double rep double hardener madrugars has it's special risks.
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Stacking multiple Passive reps doesn't break madrugar balance.
The ability to stack two hardeners doesn't break madrugar balance.
The ability to do both does
The only ways to balance both so there are more options to fight madrugars than other madrugars is a nerf to the hardeners by 10%, OR to cut passive reps in HALF, OR make heavy armor reps active-only.
Note: I don't have facts saying that hardeners have stacking penalties. I believe they have.
Third option:
Give hardeners higher than usual stacking penalties (even though the second hardener currently rises the resulting hardening amount from 40% to 60 %).
You had beef with hardener stacking? Address that issue straight fist, then look at more options.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1630
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Posted - 2015.04.13 15:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:It doesn't matter how many times we tell you our weaknesses, you guys will endlessly push for nerfs so even the dumbest mlt swarm launcher can solo-mode 1.4 mil ISK proto tank.
Prof. 4 IAFG won't do anything to a tank with it's hardeners on and the DPS is no better than swarms. Proxy mines depend on a tank going exactly where you want, when you want. I see almost no kills with proxies. Proto AV grenades will not dent armor when hardened. Many times I've snuck up on a tank, fire a swarm salvo, hit it with three Lai Dai's, then followed with two more swarms and it just sits there repping right through it. It is ridiculous to think that AV doesn't know how to tanks out, it is your tank saving you, not your greater knowledge.
Because, that's why.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8048
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Posted - 2015.04.13 15:13:00 -
[63] - Quote
Swarms have the highest AV DPS even when accounting for sustained reload time DPS.
The swarm DPS against shields actually runs higher than the plasma cannon.
It exceeds IAFG DPS by just shy of 100% more than the next fastest weapon.
If a swarm can't solo rip a madrugar with that DPS then an IAFG can't.
This whole thread is an advocacy for HAVs being the best class to play in game.
If the situation stays as is we might as well rebrand the game "WoT future wars: Now with helpless victims included."
AV
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
431
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:48:00 -
[64] - Quote
Love that it's the same AV players crying that they can't stand in front of a dual hardened tank and solo it, QQ NERF CUZ MY AV FIT DOESNT EFFORTLESSLY SOLO EVERYTHING.
Then it's the same spreadsheet players saying math trumps gameplay. QQ NERF TANKS
Then theres the same players saying they have never died in a dual rep dual hardened maddy trying to make decisions. QQ I'M OP NERF ME MY KDR IS NEAR INFINITE.
One of the reasons the double hardener double rep Maddies are so prevalent is the fact large rails have been nerfed at least 5 times in a row instead of fixing core issues.
Damage Nerf
Range Nerf
Heat Build up Nerf
Giving 90% more resist to armor hardener Nerf
Basic and Advanced damage mod Nerf
On top of these nerfs, shield tanks have also been nerfed ( because sitting in the redline hiding is supposed to be a 'playstyle' according to armor users). These nerfs include:
Hardener Nerf
Shield fitting Nerf
Shield stacking penalty Nerf
Breaking Shield Booster Nerf
Shield regen rate Nerf
Shield starting armor value Nerf
Missile splash damage nerf
Missile clip size nerf
Missile reload time nerf
How about instead of QQing because your starter fit didn't pop a 100 million sp tank by locking onto it once with swarms we actually fix the counters to this ONE SPECIFIC BUILD OF TANK
Fix Shields
Fix Rails
Fix Missiles
Fix the core problems
or do as per usual and pander to the masses that QQ on the forums for nerfs, as it is easier to cry on the forums than realize what the actual problem is in-game. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8051
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 16:53:00 -
[65] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:
what the actual problem is in-game.
the players.
More specifically and hilariously. very few people hate HAVs.
Just about everyone hates the drivers though. I wonder why.
AV
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3168
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:And once again, spkr contributes no evidence, no meaningful input.
As if I have access to your IP, your machine, etc. You type as if on the sidelines, merely commentating about things, rather than getting into detail of "when my team was making our run for the championship..." It's nothing but trash.
Merely anecdote and how he thinks it should work.
Of course I know how it works, because I've been doing it for a year and a half straight.
Because he doesn't need experience.
See above
Rather than contributing meaningfully to the cause of making HAV play fun and meaningful fir all,
I'm trying to keep tanking as a main playstyle alive, guys like you want to kill it and bury it. When people like you and Pokey, who obviously have no experience with tanks dictate how things will, not should go, that's not fun.
his message has been that it's unfair if any infantry can kill a tank ever.
Where have I said I want AV removed? Where have I said I want AV to be useless? I do however say that I want AV to be a deterrent, and a deterrent is not a useless thing. Why are you making baseless claims about things I've never said?
He's flat out said this in the past and I know where those archives are kept.
I have not, and if you save screen shots and links on to your computer about these forums, then that makes me uncomfortable, and please stop letting me live in your mind rent free.
and yet claims it should be possible to kill an HAV with AV while claiming that the pre-buff minimum engagement time of 22 or more seconds ( this really was the minimum) was unfair.
More math that works fine on paper, yet gets shred to particles in the game.
and when presented with evidence to the contrary he has NEVER acknowledged anything but his own ridiculous statements that have nothing to back them.
What evidence? Were you here when pilots used math to show the insane damage AV would do, and how fast? About how the Duvolle TAR was on par with a large blaster before the TARs were rightfully nerfed? Were you here when most of the playerbase were crying about the necessary nerfs to a suit and weapons, about how they were proclaiming that it was the end of the game if CCP went through with those nerfs? Because I was here, and I remember laughing at them thinking a couple of things (that did rightfully need to be nerfed) getting nerfed would be the end of the game.
But I will acknowledge one thing spkr. Youve had a good run. It's going to take someone truly magical to beat your troling of the forums. Everyone else buys it but you are the single-most successful troll in DUST history.
12/10.
The bar has been set. Let's see if anyone else can match this feat.
You think I'm a troll simply because I won't go along to get along. I don't believe this should be a dictatorship, where people that don't use vehicles decide on the direction that vehicles go in.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3168
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:20:00 -
[67] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:
Prof. 4 IAFG won't do anything to a tank with it's hardeners on and the DPS is no better than swarms.
My experience says otherwise.
Proxy mines depend on a tank going exactly where you want, when you want.
Takes experience to make that happen. I guess you just don't have enough.
I see almost no kills with proxies.
That's because they require proper and ideal placement.
Proto AV grenades will not dent armor when hardened. Many times I've snuck up on a tank, fire a swarm salvo, hit it with three Lai Dai's, then followed with two more swarms and it just sits there repping right through it.
My experience say otherwise.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3168
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 17:21:00 -
[68] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Doc DDD wrote:
what the actual problem is in-game.
the players. More specifically and hilariously. very few people hate HAVs. Just about everyone hates the drivers though. I wonder why.
The problem is the forums, not the in-game environment. You don't play, so you wouldn't know.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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thomas mak
The Nether Dragon
103
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 18:08:00 -
[69] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Love that it's the same AV players crying that they can't stand in front of a dual hardened tank and solo it, QQ NERF CUZ MY AV FIT DOESNT EFFORTLESSLY SOLO EVERYTHING.
Then it's the same spreadsheet players saying math trumps gameplay. QQ NERF TANKS
Then theres the same players saying they have never died in a dual rep dual hardened maddy trying to make decisions. QQ I'M OP NERF ME MY KDR IS NEAR INFINITE.
One of the reasons the double hardener double rep Maddies are so prevalent is the fact large rails have been nerfed at least 5 times in a row instead of fixing core issues.
Damage Nerf
Range Nerf
Heat Build up Nerf
Giving 90% more resist to armor hardener Nerf
Basic and Advanced damage mod Nerf
On top of these nerfs, shield tanks have also been nerfed ( because sitting in the redline hiding is supposed to be a 'playstyle' according to armor users). These nerfs include:
Hardener Nerf
Shield fitting Nerf
Shield stacking penalty Nerf
Breaking Shield Booster Nerf
Shield regen rate Nerf
Shield starting armor value Nerf
Missile splash damage nerf
Missile clip size nerf
Missile reload time nerf
How about instead of QQing because your starter fit didn't pop a 100 million sp tank by locking onto it once with swarms we actually fix the counters to this ONE SPECIFIC BUILD OF TANK
Fix Shields
Fix Rails
Fix Missiles
Fix the core problems
or do as per usual and pander to the masses that QQ on the forums for nerfs, as it is easier to cry on the forums than realize what the actual problem is in-game.
wow,wow,wow, although I got pro swaems,
I AM A TANKER WITH ALL 3 PROTO TURRETS ALSO A ADS POLITE, I started this post just because I got distroyed by a soma just because my stupid can't catch up its rep speed while my tank only got one armor rep, hardener and extander.
refer to ur post I am not QQing just asking a question, also not asking to nerf tanks.
But, I agree ur opinion about shield tanks, in my opinion, it got unreasonably less total health(armor tank got 1200shield,2/5of ahield tank, while shield got1/4 armor.etc.)
Also, almost 0 degree aiming downward which make no sence for a tank, not understanding why
and, health Regan of 2 scouts(shield of course)
Also unbalance of two kind of hardeners,(CD and active time)
one last thing, why missile must be the worst turret since open beta?
I am a tanker and a pilot
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2241
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 19:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
Of course using teamwork isn't fair. Of course, someone with a few mil SP into suits and AV combined with a suit totaling 80k ISK should easily be able to take down my 60mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank. That's fair, donchaknow.
As fair as a guy in a militia suit taking down another in a proto suit. It happens, people get over it. For the umpteenth time: when that PRO suit is caught completely unaware, ie at a depot, AFK looking at the map, BPO scout suit/shotgun. Otherwise if the person using the PRO suit isn't completely drunk/high or a dog, they should easily be able to take out that MLT suit. The point is our ISK and SP investment doesn't or at the very least shouldn't guarantee a damn thing. Nor does it. However for the cost of the tool the rewards for using it must be within reason. What is the purpose of a 1,143kk tank existing if its no better or more durable than my basic 291k tank? Hell I'm already likely to be gambling 70-100x more ISK than the next guy playing this game.
But they are arguing that it should. Better off arguing for reducing the cost of the tool because that actually makes sense.
I see blueberries
Rated [TV-MA]
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2241
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 19:30:00 -
[71] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
A (non-BPO) PRO suit backed up by all core infantry skills with any PRO weapon backed up by all its requisite skills does almost guarantee a kill against someone with minimal SP in core skills and weapons.
Almost doesn't sound like a guarantee to me.
I see blueberries
Rated [TV-MA]
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9359
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 19:35:00 -
[72] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Doc DDD wrote:
what the actual problem is in-game.
the players. More specifically and hilariously. very few people hate HAVs. Just about everyone hates the drivers though. I wonder why. The problem is the forums, not the in-game environment. You don't play, so you wouldn't know.
Yes.
All these reasonable people from multiple in game backgrounds that are making logical arguments that contradict yours, and at least one developer who has said your arguments hold no water, are the problem, but you sir, you alone are the wise one.
Your ego and lack of logic are right up there with KTB. Dare I say, they are even larger.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3170
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Posted - 2015.04.13 23:21:00 -
[73] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
All these reasonable people from multiple in game backgrounds that are making logical arguments
I was on the MAG forums quite a lot. Other than that, I started gaming online back when AOL was the major internet provider, before any form of broadband internet really caught on. Starship Troopers Online and Silent Death Online, precursors to EVE. Then there was glorious SOCOM, and after that, nothing was difficult anymore, due to children wanting instant gratification. Dunno what you're trying to say with "reasonable people from multiple in game backgrounds." Sounds to me you're trying to imply that Dust 514 is my first online game. I've been gaming online for more than 15 years.
that contradict yours,
Only because they can't see it from the point of view of a pilot.
and at least one developer who has said your arguments hold no water,
Simply because I won't bend over, and that I break down bad ideas, explaining why they're bad. Seems a favorite word to throw around is "anecdotal." Pilots agree with me because they've been there done that for longer than I have in many cases. The only ones that don't agree with me are those that aren't pilots.
are the problem, but you sir, you alone are the wise one.
One man against the world..............
Your ego and lack of logic are right up there with KTB. Dare I say, they are even larger.
I started tanking back when a Soma could 3-shot a Marauder. I've survived those hits a few times and gone after those guys. I learned from Takahiro, and picked it up pretty quickly including forcing myself to use a keyboard to drive, and not zooming in.
Dunno where this "lack of logic" comes from.
Also don't know who KTB is.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3170
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 23:24:00 -
[74] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
A (non-BPO) PRO suit backed up by all core infantry skills with any PRO weapon backed up by all its requisite skills does almost guarantee a kill against someone with minimal SP in core skills and weapons.
Almost doesn't sound like a guarantee to me.
If the guy in the PRO suit isn't stupid, then he'll kill the guy with half ADV gear.
Sounds like you're trying to cling to one tiny little thing, a huge possibility. Fact is, most of the time PRO will beat ADV. A lot of the time, the PRO guy will easily lose if he's drunk or high or really tired, or there's lag spikes and the like.
PRO > ADV
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3170
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 23:29:00 -
[75] - Quote
thomas mak wrote:
wow,wow,wow, although I got pro swaems,
I AM A TANKER WITH ALL 3 PROTO TURRETS ALSO A ADS POLITE, I started this post just because I got distroyed by a soma just because my stupid can't catch up its rep speed while my tank only got one armor rep, hardener and extander.
refer to ur post I am not QQing just asking a question, also not asking to nerf tanks.
But, I agree ur opinion about shield tanks, in my opinion, it got unreasonably less total health(armor tank got 1200shield,2/5of ahield tank, while shield got1/4 armor.etc.)
Also, almost 0 degree aiming downward which make no sence for a tank, not understanding why
and, health Regan of 2 scouts(shield of course)
Also unbalance of two kind of hardeners,(CD and active time)
one last thing, why missile must be the worst turret since open beta?
That's a painful wall of text to try to read.
If you got beat by a Soma, that's your own fault. Worse fitting and slower rep with no skills vs a PRO tank with all core skills behind it. That's all on you.
What do you mean by "one rep, hardener and extender?" The only extenders in this game are shield extenders. Maybe you meant an armor plate? Also, 3 low slots? Gallente armor tanks have 4 slots now, with 3 high slots. Armor tanks aren't 2 high and 3 low anymore. If you can't fit a 4th module in a lot slow, again, that's all on you.
Of course nerfing the base HP so much is unreasonable, pilot input isn't cared about.
Missile used to be far too good. It needed a rate of fire nerf, but not as severe as was done. They used to fire in incredibly weak 4-round volleys. Were you around for that? They were terrible.
What a wall of text.......
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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