DUST Search - Hardeners

Breakin Stuff wrote:

It's very simple. dual hardened, dual repped madrugars drop a IAFG into negative damage inflicted after shot 4. I.E. a constant firing IAFG will never break a madrugar past 80% armor, and weakspot hits won't kill a madrugar before reload. The math renders it physically impossible. A max-skill, double-repped Proto rep madrugar will regen armor at a leisurely 335 damage per second. An IAFG caps out at... I'll go over and say 2200 (actually higher than they can go).

with two hardeners you are mitigating a little over 60% damage. This brings the IAFG at highest potential to...

860 damage (I'm still erring on giving the IAFG more damage than it actually does. Now pay attention)

In the three seconds it takes to fire a IAFG shell, the Madrugar will repair 670 damage out of 860 from the first shell. that's less than 200 net damage.

DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE A FKING PROBLEM HERE???

Two IAFGs still cannot output enough damage to kill a current madrugar in 8 shots and it will be above 70% armor (roughly) before they finish reloading.

There is no "learning to attack passive rep tanks" under the current method. It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for a solo AV gunner to kill an HAV under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE without abusive mechanics. or doing incredibly stupid sh*t that requires the HAV driver to be goddamn moron.

I do not exaggerate.

The only HAV drivers who die let shots hit their weakspot more than once with hardeners down.

The current madrugar meta is impossible for another player to beat without three to one odds without abusing triple AV nades, and myofibril stacking shenanigans, or a JLAV loaded with ten REs.
.

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Stacking multiple Passive reps doesn't break madrugar balance.
The ability to stack two hardeners doesn't break madrugar balance.
The ability to do both does

The only ways to balance both so there are more options to fight madrugars than other madrugars is a nerf to the hardeners by 10%, OR to cut passive reps in HALF, OR make heavy armor reps active-only.


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KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1930	Posted - 2015.04.13 05:07:00 - [1] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: Yep, AV will forever cry. What TANKOPHOBES don't understand is that if AV is buffed around one guy takig out a tank you will still inevitably get two or more doing AV anyway. In which case tanks will be way too easy to take out to even be playable. Hear hear. THIS is the very essence of V vs AV balancing. Looking at both sides of the coin. Even Aurum one.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1931	Posted - 2015.04.13 13:45:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It's very simple. dual hardened, dual repped madrugars drop a IAFG into negative damage inflicted after shot 4. I.E. a constant firing IAFG will never break a madrugar past 80% armor, and weakspot hits won't kill a madrugar before reload. The math renders it physically impossible. A max-skill, double-repped Proto rep madrugar will regen armor at a leisurely 335 damage per second. An IAFG caps out at... I'll go over and say 2200 (actually higher than they can go). with two hardeners you are mitigating a little over 60% damage. This brings the IAFG at highest potential to... 860 damage (I'm still erring on giving the IAFG more damage than it actually does. Now pay attention) In the three seconds it takes to fire a IAFG shell, the Madrugar will repair 670 damage out of 860 from the first shell. that's less than 200 net damage. DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE A FKING PROBLEM HERE??? Two IAFGs still cannot output enough damage to kill a current madrugar in 8 shots and it will be above 70% armor (roughly) before they finish reloading. There is no "learning to attack passive rep tanks" under the current method. It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for a solo AV gunner to kill an HAV under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE without abusive mechanics. or doing incredibly stupid sht that requires the HAV driver to be goddamn moron. I do not exaggerate. The only HAV drivers who die let shots hit their weakspot more than once with hardeners down. The current madrugar meta is impossible for another player to beat without three to one odds without abusing triple AV nades, and myofibril stacking shenanigans, or a JLAV loaded with ten REs. . For starters, Madrugars are not quite right at the moment. However, it is not as terrible as you let it seem by your examples. Your math checks out ok (except IAFG fires rounds at 2,25 sec interval) so I agree in that scenario the Maddie cannot be brought down by single AV. I agree that there should be a theoretical possibility. But it is for the limited time maximum mode for HAV. For comparison, list kill times for - one hardener mode (3shot, kill time 4,5s) - hardener off mode (2shot, kill time 2,25s) Note that those are for solo* max skill IAFG user hitting consequtive hits. Those times are short. Really short, which means that is is a considerable gambit to bring out 2rep2hard0plate Maddie on the field. That's again the the math speaking. While on cooldowns, the said tank is most likely doing nothing at all. Now, there's been a claim that tank user will always be in his redline on cooldowns. Also, an assumption that when tank under enemy influence , it has both hardeners always on. Neither are reality. A tank having a meaningful impact on winning game is operating far and has a long contested trip to safe coodowns. This means that he either spends very little time fighting, or is risking being vulnerable on return. A standard practice for experienced AV infantry is to cover the tank escape route. Most importantly: the full hardened mode scenario - and math - ignores the importance of opening volley. The opening shot on stand by mode Maddie drops him down to 500HP. Then it gets interesting. IF the tanker knows his salt, isn't shocked, and has enought reaction and dexterity in his fingers, he manages both hardeners on. Then, the 106 net damage of shots 2, 3 and 4 take him and keep him really low but won't kill him. (personal opinion: 3 or especially 4 consequtive hits is a challenging feat and should have it's rewards) IF the tanker activates only one hardener (possible in high stress situation or in case of server lag when your client gets the being hit info 1 second late of it actually happening) The tanker pops on shot 2 in 2,25 seconds, although it is very close, only 50 or so excess damage for leftover. (personal opinion: there is room for player skill, I like it. Network lag can be a deciding factor on near instaboom, I don't like it.) No tanker ever is gonna exit their redline in two hardener mode to find enemies. If they activate only one, then they are not really two hardener tanks. If they save hardeners and keep them off until needed, then they are vulnerable. In the end, it may have been a mistake to rebuff the armor hardeners 30%-->40% among all other madrugar and tanking changes. Still using double rep double hardener madrugars has it's special risks. Breakin Stuff wrote: Stacking multiple Passive reps doesn't break madrugar balance. The ability to stack two hardeners doesn't break madrugar balance. The ability to do both does The only ways to balance both so there are more options to fight madrugars than other madrugars is a nerf to the hardeners by 10%, OR to cut passive reps in HALF, OR make heavy armor reps active-only. Note: I don't have facts saying that hardeners have stacking penalties. I believe they have. Third option: Give hardeners higher than usual stacking penalties (even though the second hardener currently rises the resulting hardening amount from 40% to 60 %). You had beef with hardener stacking? Address that issue straight fist, then look at more options. Looking at both sides of the coin. Even Aurum one.